 Chicken tastes good, that's my opinion. Chicken tastes good. Chicken tastes good? Yeah, yeah, it tastes good. There's two parts to it for people. One who makes excuses and one who goes vegan. Yeah. Wait, listen, are we eating veganism? It's dumb. I enjoy eating meat. I'm not going to... Are you going to change? Are you going to stop eating meat? I'd like to. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. You can choose not to eat meat or animal products. There's a lot of information there. Yeah, completely, but it's just... It tastes good, you get me. I think if it was the same with humans, and I think if it tastes good, it tastes good, you're still going to eat it, but... I'll tell you, a lot of things feel good that are evil. I think of a rapist. They use it, oh, well, it feels good. I get pleasure. Someone who gets sick pleasure from abusing a dog, they like that people that be cruel to cats on the internet. Now, they can say it feels good, and you're going, oh, that's cruel. You can't get pleasure from cruelty, but you guys are getting pleasure from cruelty. Yeah, but... Because we have to eat to live. So, I live, I'm seven years vegan, bro. Pigs have been literally bred to be food. Pigs are made to be food. Doesn't make it ethical, though. I could breed you to be food. I could breed a bunch of different ewes to be food. Eat human? That's your choice. I could do that, but would that be ethical? What? You can't eat humans. No, you can't, but it's not ethical, like... It's not ethical to eat dogs. You can breed dogs for consumption as well. Would that be ethical? No, because most dogs haven't been bred for that. No, it doesn't matter. No, in principle, you can eat... No, it doesn't matter. There's dog farms in North Korea. There's dog farms in Korea. It doesn't matter. Why is it wrong and why is eating pigs not wrong, and why is eating dogs wrong? I'd lose myself. Well, in my opinion, it's been sort of... In our Western society, it's been sort of alienised. I would never eat a dog. You said it's wrong. It's unethical. I agree with you. I agree with you. It's only because of how we've been brought up. If 90 years ago, they started eating dogs... You're talking about culture. Culture determines morality. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, over 100 years ago, we started breeding dogs for consumption. And we started... We're still eating them now. You do it. It'd be fine. Well, then people would think it's fine. What about... You know, a lot of people were born into the era in America where there was slavery. Okay? No, no, no. You said what's cultural is ethical, yeah? Because we've been doing it for a hundred... No, no, let me finish. And I'll let you talk, all right? Because slavery was around in America for 400 years. Slavery's always been around in human civilisation. Okay? Because it's always happened and because it's cultural, traditional, that makes it ethical in your worldview. No, I'm just saying. You said... No, no, no, no. You said... Hundreds of years and it was normal, it'd be okay. You're interpreting it wrong. In my opinion is, they've read, like, we look at it weird because it's not how we've been brought up. But if we were... If eating dogs was a worldwide thing, everybody did it, then would people be complaining about it? I don't care if people complain about it. I care if it's ethical. Okay. I care if it's moral. If people can... Some people don't complain about cows being stabbed in the throat. I want to know if it's ethical. So put a bolt in it, said it, like, quick. I don't think a bolt in the head is ethical. In what world is a bolt in the head ethical? What's... If there was suffering, maybe, but... You can't just... I want to say you can't just put a bolt in its head. Like, it has to grow to a certain size. I mean, just grow it and then kill it. Yeah, but... I mean, you've got a weird idea of what's ethical, man. It's entirely... I want to know why you think growing someone and shooting them in the head is in any way ethical. But a cow isn't a someone. It is a someone. No, it's not. It's an animal. It's just a... Well, is a dog a someone? Do they have personality? No. A dog doesn't have a personality. No, it's like a cat does. And so does a cow on a pig. Definitely, yeah. I recently rescued a turkey from a farm on that same level we connected. You can tell they had different personalities and there's someone inside of there. When you pick up a carrot, a plant, there's no one inside of there. No one cares about a carrot. If you do, I mean, I've got to... I mean... Pull you up there, but... Like, I want to know why you think cows are nothing. They're just objects for you to stab in the throat and eat. I'm not saying we stab them in the throat. They have to be stabbed in the throat after their bolt gunned. Okay. But after they've been bolt gunned, it's just the nerves working. They're dead. I don't care. I don't think shooting people in the head is ethical either. If carrots were... If carrots grew and had a conscience, right? Would... Yeah, but if... No, pipe down. If they did, then would you stop eating carrots? If I found out that carrots were sentient beings, then yeah, I'd eat other plants that weren't sentient. No, but if all plants became sentient... No, that's my point. If I had to do it to survive, it would be a different story. We wouldn't be talking about ethics because we'd have to survive. You don't have to eat animals to survive. You know they're sentient and conscious, so what do you talk about? Well, if there's not enough plants for us to grow, is it effect? There's plenty of plants. We're feeding a bunch of plants to the animals you eat. Yeah, so we have to feed plants to animals and humans. So it's inefficient. So we can eat the plants directly. So then what do we give to the animals? Sorry? What do we do with the animals? We stop breeding them into existence for you to eat in bacon sandwiches. So they're going to breed themselves? No, they're not. They're forcibly bred. I just showed... Did I show you guys the dairy industry? You showed me that. They're forcibly bred. You see it? They're bred on purpose. Yeah, I know. But if you let them all free... They won't be free because they're human-created animals. They don't exist in the wild. You've got to calm down here for a second because you're getting ahead of yourself here. I've been studying animal rights for six years. I'm not saying this. Well, okay. But you're saying that animals are going to mate with each other in the wild or something and overpopulate. Is that your argument? Yeah. Because think about how many lambs are castrated. What do you think chickens and turkeys and pigs and cows come from, like the way they are? I just said that we bred them to be like that. Do you agree with fish and stuff like that? Do you think that's okay? I think fish feel pain and they suffer and there's no reason to drag them out of the ocean and kill them when I can eat a tofu sandwich. I think you're listening to yourself when you're talking. I am listening to you. But do you feel like you're contradicting yourself and trying to justify something that's horrific? No. I'm completely on the other side of this. Before he had to be... Whose position is more ethical, right? I want to ask you. He's saying, grow them and shoot them in the head, which is what we already do. We already do that. And I'm saying, let's boycott the industry, let's let them phase out and let's eat plant foods, create burgers out of plants, use technology to create food out of plants. So what do we do with the humans that live in the countryside where cows and... Do they move so that we've got more space for cows? What? You know why I like countryside? I'm lost. Do you want a debate with him? I mean, who's countryside's in that? Yeah. Cows in that from? Yeah. What do we... So if we let all the cows that exist now free, let them go live in fields and shit. I think you're misinterpreting. They're going to phase out the industry slowly. They're not just going to stop everyone's going to go vegan tomorrow and there's going to be all these cows in the countryside. They phase it out. Do you know what phasing out means? I'm saying, we don't have space. Do you know how many animals are on Earth already? And the population's growing. And if you want to continue eating meat and you're saying there's no space. Then you've got to stop eating meat just based on that own argument, on your own argument. Difficult. Is it to do that though? Like, I agree. I'm not thinking myself, right? But I'd like to become one. Yeah. It's just... Like, I think about the diet being very difficult. Is it difficult? Once you know what to do, it's very simple. I mean, I've been vegan in the most bizarre situations, cycling through deserts and eating at gas stations and things like this. And I've always found cereal, soy milk, peanut butter, beans. You know, like, so here in the UK, amazing vegan options. They've got Veganuary here, which is amazing. And it's really easy. I've got these little guides here. I mean, I don't know if you want one. Yeah. It seems like... Bro, what's your name? My name's Kimmy. Kimmy. Joey, how old are you? I'm 17. 17, okay. I mean, I feel like you're trying to make excuses for killing animals, right? Because you don't want to stop. That's what I'm being honest with you here. That's what I think you're doing. I think you guys here are against animal cruelty and you're trying to find... I'm again. You're trying to analyse whether this is true or not. If you were against animal cruelty then you wouldn't eat animals. No. I enjoy eating meat. I'm not going to... Are you going to change? Are you going to stop eating meat? I'd like to. Okay. Are you going to stop eating meat? It's just... I see, like, if I could, I would stop. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm open to the idea of it. Yeah. I'm like you. I'm open to the idea of it. I would do it, but... Kimmy, Kimmy, you enjoy eating meat but an animal has to be executed so you can eat their body. Okay. Okay, some people enjoy sex but they don't go around raping people because they enjoy it because you have to... You have to rob someone of their rights in order to eat their body. Their right to life. That's what you have to do. Yeah. So do you think that's moral just because you like the taste of their body? No. What I'm seeing is I've been brought... I've tried being vegan before. Like, I saw on YouTube something and... I don't think... I'm finding it hard to believe but... For two weeks, for two weeks, for two weeks I ate, like, Quorn, peanut butter sandwiches, jam, like fruit and it sounds like a horrible vegan diet. It was. I like Quorn, though. You've got to know what to eat, brother. You don't like Quorn? No, I do. I eat Quorn all the time but I eat Quorn with vegetables and noodles and... Vegetables and... Yeah? Yeah, okay. We like Quorn and like fries. Fit. But like, I just... It'd be weird for me to change. I mean... So you're trying to find excuses to keep doing it. I just want you to... Even if you've got to keep doing it, just admit that it's so... I know that it's wrong but I can't change that. You can. Yeah, but I enjoy eating meat. I can't. Yeah, so you're saying you're choosing your pleasure over the animal's life and... Yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying I personally... The human context. In the human context, you know what they'd call you? What? A evil psychopath. You're choosing your pleasure over someone's life and their rights. Not someone, something. I mean, I'm saying that you've been brought up eating meat. You think it's just normal on that. But in the human context, they'd call you a psychopath. Can I ask something? Do you have a prediction about like when... Like in an ideal world, if everyone was vegan, do you have a prediction for when that would happen? Well, I don't know if more people... If less people make excuses like Kimmy, hopefully sooner. But if more people like you guys join in and get on the side of the animals, then maybe sooner. But we need laws as well as people making changes. So we need the supply and demand change to change and we need laws above to change as well. Isn't there a lot of food that's wasted as well? Just like animals don't do it. Animals don't do it. With waste. It is where you waste. I only make enough food for myself. Why would you waste all of this plant food to feed to an animal over the course of their life? All of that water, all of that land, just so you can eat a little bit of their flesh? Do you know how inefficient that is? Most of the soy, like half of the soy in the Amazon has been fed to chickens over here. Okay. I'm just saying, I understand that it's not right, but I've grown up eating meat. You've ate meat longer than you've been alive. 26 years I ate meat for, dude. I'll eat meat for 26 years and then I'll change. I'll change when I realise, dude. Yeah, I'll realise in five years. Not him, not you. Yeah, I'll change in five, six years. How do you know that? So you're choosing to be an animal abuser through your lifestyle for the next five or six years? Yes you are. You're paying for them to be abused. If I pay someone to abuse you, I'm an abuser as well. I think we're all massive but we wouldn't do it. Do you know what I mean? We wouldn't actually abuse animals. I had a pig here or the turkey I rescued the other day from a farm. Would you cut their head off and eat them? Not myself, no. Okay, so you're a hypocrite? If I was starving. If I was in the wild... Give me. Just a bit. I admitted I was a hypocrite before I changed. No, it's just like, I'm not going to change now. I'm just saying, before I changed, I admitted I was a hypocrite. I did it on my Facebook in 2012. I just need to change my diet and stuff because I'm really unhealthy right now, but I'll go to the butchers. I'll get some meat. Jump in. Okay. When you eat eggs and stuff, it's always free range. I wouldn't eat battery eggs. Disgusting me. So the free range egg industry macerate the male chicks and they slaughter all the hens. So if you go to... Where is it? Eggs. Okay. So after they come out, these eggs become incubated, they hatch, and then they separate them into male and female. The males won't be used by the industry. This is free range and organic do this as well. So what they do with the males is they destroy them on their first day of life. That's pretty sad, isn't it? They do this in the UK across the world. What do they do with the meat then? Goes to pet food or something like this. Fertiliser out there. You don't think it's wrong for dogs to eat meat then? Well, we can talk about dogs but I want to talk about you. Yeah, okay. So if I stop eating meat... I think it's completely wrong for you to do it. But what do we do with the dogs? Do you have a pet dog at home? I've got a pet dog. Cocoa. Okay. Cocoa. So they slaughter all the egg laying hens as well. So I just want you to know that. I'm asking what should we do with what do we feed dogs and stuff because my dogs... Yeah, yeah. So I've got... I'm having a bit of a hard time trying to turn you vegan. So I want to focus on you. I don't want to turn you vegan. I'm asking you... This is my question. Okay. What do we do? How do we feed them? I've got them in bread that's their diet. Same with ferrets. I don't know what that's been bred for. They're domesticated animals. Ferrets? Same with... They can't eat. They have to eat raw meat. So what do we do with ferrets? Okay. Do you have a ferret? My girlfriend has a ferret. She has a ferret. Okay. So first of all, you know what's wrong for you to eat animals and stuff, yeah? Yeah. We get that off the table then you're off the table. Right. So you're a vegan now. Let's just say in this hypothetical world, you've gone vegan, you've realized the error of your ways. Your dog's not vegan. And you're worried because... I don't want to turn my dog. You're really concerned because you don't want animals to have their rights robbed in a slaughterhouse to feed your one animal, yeah? Yeah. And you wouldn't accept dogs being slaughtered in a slaughterhouse to feed your dog, would you? No. So what do we feed the dog? Okay. So you wouldn't accept that, would you? So what do we feed the dogs? I just wanted to get an answer. You wouldn't accept dogs being slaughtered to feed your dog, would you? No. So why would you... So why would you accept pigs, cows... We'll get there. Pigs, cows, chickens, turkeys and fish to be fed to your dog. How would you accept that? Dogs being fed to your dog. If I go vegan, then I wouldn't... What do I feed my dog then? Is you get especially formulated vegan pet food? Okay. Okay, and dogs can be healthy, but fourth... One sec. Okay. It's almost like you're trying to make excuses and you're not listening to what I'm saying to respond to you. I'm just not going all the time in a while. Yeah, I'm just trying to mean it. Why wouldn't you kill ferrets to feed to your ferret if they need meat? Because they can't eat ferret. How do you know? It's meat. They're not... Okay, would you kill a dog to feed to your ferret? Why can't they eat dog? They can't eat pork. They can't eat pork. They can't eat... Fish. Can they eat cats? No. How do you know? It's not part of the diet. They can eat beef and chicken. So cows are... I just want to get this straight. Cows are part of a ferret's diet. Ferrets can eat beef. How do ferrets kill cows in the wild? No, but they've been bred so they eat that. If you're wild ferret, wild ferrets will eat chicken, eggs, dogs. So I don't believe you there. I don't know. Cows are not part of a ferret's diet in the wild. Domesticated ferrets can eat beef and chicken and eggs. Doesn't mean that they'll die if they don't get those things. I'll let you go, Kimmy. I appreciate the conversation. I'm glad that you've realised the error of your ways and you're going to be vegan next time, a vegan activist. See you, mate. Okay, so we've got ferrets. We've got stuck on ferrets, but he gave me a good run for my money. But yeah. You know, first you have to talk to about the person first and they try to throw it onto their cats or dog. You want to analyse whether or not they realise that slaughtering animals is wrong for them. And this is supposed to be a table debate, but for some reason we ended up standing up and talking to, like, six people. But yeah, Kimmy, look, to be honest with you, I don't think Kimmy lies to himself. I think he's probably a good kid in other ways, but the other kids there, they were a lot more on the ball with it. They took the information. You know, I've got a lot more hope in the other two than I do with Kimmy, but maybe Kimmy will snap out of it sooner or later, you know. He's only 17. When I was 17 I was using drugs and in gangs and eating meat and didn't care about what anyone said. So, like, you know, yeah. Hopefully they do the right thing and yeah. We'll talk about ferret veganism another day, I think. Where would you stand in the days of slavery? Would you be on the side of the slave owners? Yeah, against him. Obviously. Obviously. Wait a second. Just ask where you are now with animal rights.