 Hello and welcome everyone to Exchange for Media's D2C Revolution. We are in conversation with Ramita Mazumdar, founder of FoxTales Thincare. Hi, Ramita. How are you doing? I am great. How are you? I'm good as well. I would love to dive right in and I can see the craze around the colorful products and the bottles that come around with FoxTale. How has the journey been so far for the brand? Being just a two-year-old brand, what have you seen this far? Consumer behavior changes, challenges. What do you think? The journey has been nothing short of giving a feeling that we are extremely grateful. We are grateful to the customers. We are grateful to all the love we've gotten. And most importantly, I think I'm very grateful to the team. We worked extremely hard to get things right and do right by the consumer. See, I think VPC and I think consumer in general is at a very interesting phase. As over the last five, seven years, we've been exposed to a high amount of learning. Social media, we can keep talking about trolls and all the negative things. I think what social media and the world of digital media has done, it's exposed us to what's happening across the world. And what that has meant is that our needs and desires have grown at an accelerated rate. Now, one is that second, India is as an economy doing really well. And as consequence of a good economy is that consumers are benefiting from it. So you have higher per capita income, which is dispensable. So I think consumer as a whole, everyone, I keep hearing that this is a golden decade for India. But I can tell you as an execution as a business person that I really see a lot of aspiration. I really see a lot of educated customers. And when I say educated, I'm not talking about literacy per se, but I'm talking about educated about what they want, how they want it. Having a higher sense of self-awareness about the life they want to build products that fit into that life, etc. And that is making our story very interesting, a lot more challenging because today you can't just tell a user, you have to use this. A user knows what she wants. And she's very clear what works, what doesn't work. So honesty is something that has come at the peak of it. I think what today users are really rewarding is honesty. They're rewarding transparency. The amount of consumer maturity. It's not like you do something wrong and the consumer is like, oh, you're the worst. Consumers are also giving you space saying that, oh, you're a young brand. You can do things wrong. But at the end of the day, how agile are you in making it correct? So we are in this beautiful economy today, which is giving us the power to spend. But most importantly, we're at an era where we know who we are, where we are trying to strive very hard to become who we want to be. And accordingly, the other consumer categories are fitting into it. And I think BPC is one of the most personal categories if you look at it, but not only women today for even men. It's a very personal choice, what you put on your skin, how you put, what do you want to look like, et cetera. So it's fitting into the story of, it has to fit into very honestly, the story of who the Indian consumer wants to be today and how she wants to be perceived. And that honesty has become the crux of it. So what is the biggest challenge is honestly being truthful to the user today is not just the language or a lingo. It is a necessity. So being truthful to the user is what makes our job easier because we started as users. We started because we felt like people are not being truthful in the category as users when we were users of this category before launching the brand. And I think because that's the DNA that also makes it very easy for us. But at the same time with every new product repeating that truthfulness, repeating that honesty, with every new campaign repeating that truthfulness and honesty. So I'll tell you one of the things, right? We've launched a hybrid sunscreen, which is like a foundation sunscreen. And then there are three shades, shade one, two, three. So usually in any company makeup brand you go shade one is the lightest, shade three is the darkest. And we said, why? So we exchange it, shade three is the lightest for us and shade one is the darkest shade for us. And if you go offline, a lot of people still get sometimes confused. They will get the wrong one and then they will say the brand's not done right. It took me one month to correct that saying that and now I went through a month where people complained about it to the month that I get a lot of positive feedback that, you know, this is not just saying you're intrusive. This is like such a niche thing like shade three to one, right? Why should one always be the lightest, right? You always know number one and number two. Like, you know, there's always a connotation to it. So I suddenly as they were see going through my social media reviews and people started noticing it saying that, you know, they've done opposite of what the market is. They took a risk at their business because they knew that people could have easily confused for it and that could lead to negative feedback. But I very quickly, the consumer realized that, you know, they just practicing what they say and then they also appreciated us for that. So yeah, I think being truthful to the user is the biggest challenge and the biggest benefit and strength that we also end up experiencing. Very, I mean, intriguing that I never knew this foundation thing that you just told me, it's very interesting to see that somebody is redefining the game. Also, coming to the definition where the vegan cruelty free topic as a whole has been overused and overexposed now. I'll be honest, I'll share my own opinion. When I Google a cosmetic and I say I want to buy vegan and cruelty free product. The next minute Instagram loads me with so many brands which I've not heard of, which are new, which are better, which are giving me cruelty free and vegan free and gluten free and I don't know what all I'm not sure. There are so many terms at this moment that I'm not even sure I'm mixing up food and cosmetic maybe. So, how do you redefine how do you differentiate your business when the word that you're playing on is already overexposed. See, Jenny, they'll tell you I and we very firmly believe that we actually never tried to pitch ourselves as vegan. We are vegan. We are cruelty free. We don't test on animals. We don't use majority of the ingredients in the world unless they pass a safety test. So we only use ones that are approved by the EU, etc. So there's a lot of testing that we do and a lot of we don't never use something that is allergic or every fragrance is allergen free. And there are only close double digit fragrances in the world that are allergen free. So it's not like my world is huge. So it also restricts and makes the problem to be solved more complicated. But I told my team when I started off when I still tell it like when I talk to investors or when someone's asking me what have you guys done right. Yeah. Agar Khana Saap Hoga and I'm talking in Hindi, you are not going to tell someone Oh, the food is clean. You can eat it. It has to be clean. It's the most obvious thing. You are not going to be like I watched the vegetables and made it. It has to be washed and given it. Now, if you go to a vegetarian house, we're not going to say Oh, animals. There are no animals on the plate that are only vegetarian. It has to be it. So I think as a user again, like going back to the fact that it started as a user. I think today vegan cruelty free is a necessity. It's not a bitch. I think if you're not vegan cruelty free, then it becomes a problem. And I don't think it's also such a great task that I'm doing that I'm going to go and pitch my users that here I'm vegan cruelty free. I want my users to know that these guys are doing every basic thing to be conscious of the environment conscious of what the user wants conscious of what sensitivity different users can have. And when she doesn't think about it, then what she starts thinking about. Okay, why am I using see you are not using skincare because it's vegan you are using skincare because there's a benefit you want right pigmentation dark circles, etc, etc, etc, whatever is the benefit. But if you start worrying about us being us doing the basic things right then I'm not doing the right job as a brand. So I always say that while we are vegan we are cruelty free we are all of these. We made a lot of safety standards which are much higher than a lot of brands that I have used previously right and we are very conscious of it and very particular about it. But I don't like talking about it or I honestly never pitch it you will see on my website there's one place and it's not like it's gotten a huge you don't go to my homepage and you will see vegan cruelty free brand. I'm a brand that delivers result and I want you to know, and I want you to trust like it's like going to your mom right you know when you go to your mom's kitchen, you're going to get your basic taste right you're not going to worry about Namak Zada Namak Kam right. You might not like the vegetables he makes but you know that the taste is going to be primarily right. Brands have to do that and I think we have these firmly believe that that's not my pitch that's my that's my obligation that's my moral duty to give you something that's vegan something that's cruelty free. My pitch to use always about the result you will get beyond it and I think it's true yeah now users, I don't think today there is only a set of users for cruelty free or vegan or paraben free etc. Or sulphur free in fact we launched an anti acne face wash and there are, I'm not saying there aren't anti acne face wash in the market, but nothing was truly sulphate free. This was truly sulphate free right and you will there are different derivations of it that people started using, but it was not truly sulphate free. So it took me a year and a half to make a truly sulphate free acne acne face wash because it makes this it forms people feel like it's using. So I have to solve for foam but I'd also made it truly sulphate free. Right so I don't say just sulphate but you will go and look at my anti acne face wash it's my pitch is not it's sulphate free because everyone's pitching that even if they're not doing it. You need to know that we are this and that's my moral obligation that's not something unique and such a big thing I'm doing. I think that's the basic thing I have to get right before I start solving for anything. Correct makes sense I really like the way you put it across, especially with the mom's food example of course that's very correct. Also moving ahead, what are your offline expansion plans are you already out there or it's on the cards. So we are across 10 cities in India. We are in a combination of general trade stores, we're mostly in general trade stores, a combination of the beauty assisted stores and non be a non beauty assisted stores. See, again, I think online we have built a profitable business online. So it's not like today, a lot of times offline happens because online and I'm primarily my website. So it's not that people usually marketplaces ends up becoming a big thing big channel for them but then you worry that you know if I'm so dependent on one marketplace what if they increase their margins etc. So you take a hit on profitability. They are primarily our website and we are profitable so that's not a worry that I end up I have to have and we are growing that's what quite fast quite well there. But I think but market but I think marketplace and offline are both when my users see there was a time where I prioritize my website is because I wanted to learn from the user on the website. I know what the user is buying what is she liking what is she not liking so there's a lot of learning I got right and it is very critical whenever you start something you need to learn. You can never hit it right maybe you'll be lucky and hit it right on two things but you will most likely have a learning curve on two three other things right. So that's something that we took that one year. Now, I'm not just solving for what I am learning I have to solve for okay my user has tried me there are so many X number of users who know about me but they are going and telling their families they are going and talking about us. So I have to be where the user is sometimes it's also inconvenient for the user to buy one product from a website and two three other products from a marketplace. If she's on any of the market places Amazon like she's not only able to buy my product she's able to buy multiple other things together so she's able to solve for a multi card. So we are prioritizing that also offline for me is the most was always something that I had to crack wanted to tell you why is because as much as we think that we all are shopping online. The majority of the Indian market is still offline lead right. Totally agree skin care color cosmetics etc you know. It's easy for me to want my user to trust me but unless you try the product how do you trust right. So I'm thinking that now we've reached a scale that we are expanding to that part of India, which doesn't necessarily has the have the highest trust online it's not like she doesn't shop, she might be shopping the second time online. But trust building has to happen and trust building happens when you can touch the product when you can see the product when you can try it. And I think that's what for me offline is being where you are no matter you're going out and going to buy something I want to be there. And that's really true FMCG FMCG is where you go to buy a pep so then yet you can see a skin care you can see a color cosmetics that's true FMCG right. And I be always that way if you look at a packaging it's colorful there's a reason it's colorful I wanted I didn't want to be a black and white thing on the shelf I wanted you to see what those are. And each product stands for a different color because each product stands for a different story a different problem solution. So offline is going to be big for us in terms of expansion in terms of penetration, but having said that marketplaces and websites will continue marketplaces is also a priority we built a team this way that we can prioritize on all three things which is choose one over the other. We are lucky that we don't have to substitute growth for one over the other it's not that one is not growing so I'm growing on that. And I think we are expanding so rapidly because all three are growing at the pace that they are. And yeah so offline you will see us to quite a bit now. Amazing sounds good. Also I read somewhere that 25% I guess of your revenue goes to the marketing budget if I'm not wrong something of that sort. Yeah, yeah so. Yeah, so how is it like what is the media mix and what is the what is the marketing mix that you follow where does that 25% in different channels go and what is the most profitable for you are always highest on which platform. So I'll tell you we see marketing me. What we do is innovative how we do it is innovative the channels by itself I think for every brand is mootah mootah the same. Now the marketing budget goes into performance marketing which is your meta and Google of the world it goes into marketplaces like Amazon like they also have they also have display banners etc. It goes into influencers content creators etc influencers who are posting about us talking about us that we partner with a lot of brand ambassador kind of profiles, it goes into that. And primarily it is these three there is always a little that goes into affiliate channels etc. But primarily the majority of the budget ends up being these three. My ROI is highest. So for me it is very hard to pick one and what also ends up happening between the channels themselves and wherever I was taking it we are able to prioritize the other because profitability is something we take very seriously whatever compromise on it. Like I'll tell you on the start of the month when we decide on the cost no matter what the revenue target meet or any cost structure never changes we never increase it we always in fact end up under spending versus spending more. And the team will never come and say, hey revenue targeting me that do like extra that is never a conversation that we have you have to meet your revenue target at the same cost now how the channels interplay with each other is always a question. But yeah, I don't think that I can choose one over the other I think each of them build to have something leads to be a creation etc. So I also don't think it's right to think of our way that way for example, you're running on the meta, an influencer talks about you, let's say, but you see an Instagram and then convert it convert end up converting on it. So it will look like your performance marketing has very great ROI, but the influencer also has a role to play and vice versa. You know, the reality is that marketing digital marketing by itself is a very interplay with each other quite a bit because it's the same user who's seeing you with an influencer who's seeing you on Nike and then seeing you on Instagram at. So what leads to the final conversion is always very difficult and tricky to say, so hence I don't I'll not get into ROI definition because it will not be fair for these channels for us all of them are equally important and all of them touch would have worked well for us. Sounds good. Also, as far as I could see foxtails website and stuff. I did not find a very famous face attached to the brand, and it majorly banks upon influencer marketing as what you said right. So this is what I'm asking you this is what I wonder about DTC brands that is establishing a business without a celebrity endorsement today tougher or easier and is influencer marketing a total 100% alternate to it. How do you think about that influencer marketing versus celebrity endorsement. See, the reason we have not done celebrity endorsement other than the fact that they are a lot more expensive. Of your day, not more cost into production and I think you've not had the bandwidth or let's say the necessary need that we invest because you know, for you will invest that kind of money and your revenue has to make sense to invest that kind of money. But it's not just been a business and a number that call it's also been the reality is I'm not against celebrity or I'm not like do we not think about it of course we think about it. But you know, I don't want to do a celebrity endorsement just to access someone's reason she has so many followers she's such a big star. I wanted to reflect foxtails personality right see I am not Kylie Kardashian or Kim Kardashian or you know, Hailey Bieber that I will launch a brand and people end up using it because they'll be like. Like you know, people know me as a business woman people know me as my for my financial background people know me for building foxtail but it's not for my. So I think what leverage and I think it's a huge leverage the stars have they are known for their personalities right they're known for what they start for it's beyond movies right today. If you talk of celebrities it's not and the reason some endorsements were great when it comes to celebrities is when the first their personality and the brand talks to each other. I don't think I've been able to identify with celebrity and foxtails. What is with celebrities personality aligns with what foxtails and so on. And I think I'll do real injustice to foxtail if that marriage doesn't happen quickly. Because it's easy see I can get someone I will pay someone and I will all of that is fine right but I think when this I also I have not worked with celebrities I really but I don't think basis the interviews are here and so I say here that if the personality aligns with the brand they also have a real connect and love for the brand right. It is not just a transactional thing so I think I don't want to get into a pure transactional relationship with the celebrity because then she becomes the face of the fact right. And it's as good as you know like today today I can't say I'm the face of the brand I think I am the voice of the brand I think I have people like may have some some very strong. You know, content creators who are up front talking about the brand, etc right may is a part of the founding members and she talks about the brand quite and she goes to a lot of places and people ask how you the founder. The reason being that her personality aligns with what Foxdale stands for right and so what people feel when they use the product look at the website and what they feel when she talks what aligns quite a bit. And that's the personality that people look up to so I think for a celebrity it's a much more magnanimous personality right it's a very well defined it's not that she's going to partner with me and suddenly I will influence her personality in the market in the audiences head is well defined so her personalities will influence people how people view Boxdale versus vice versa and hence it's very critical it's the right person who's coming and becoming the face. And I haven't found that yet I try to think about it and people have asked me who would it be. I have a few names in mind but honestly I did not reach the stage where I would love any time I partner I would be having conversations I would want to understand who she is I would want to know how my user sees her etc that's one to your second question is influencer versus celebrity. Yeah, whether one displaces other I don't know and I don't think so I think influencers have. You know I think we are doing a disservice to influencers by thinking that and I genuinely think this that thinking that they are just creating content I think what they are known for and what people respect them is for the intelligence of the category that they develop right and that's not necessarily true for stars stars are known for the personalities right what they stand for I think influencers are known for the intelligence of the category right. Now, their profession is acting their intelligence isn't acting and identifying the right script identifying the right audience and films and everything content creators kind of intelligence is the everyday intelligence about the category they pick. You talk about any influencer if she's a comic her intelligence isn't the comic relief that she's giving right if you talk about a skincare influencers intelligence is about the skin type etc like today she can function almost like a Dermat but not a Dermat but almost like that right so I think. To me the reason to collaborate with the two are very separate. When I collaborate with an influencer I collaborate because she's a key opinion leader I collaborate because she can execute on a I want to collaborate because I want people want her opinion about me in fact we are one of the. We're the first brand to do lap trials now we've not we should do it again as we used to send before a launch product to influencers and we used to say you give whatever opinion you want even bad it's fine you give that opinion to us so I care about opinion about my products I can because and people care about her opinion about the product right so I think. Intelligence about a category and star value. And I know today a lot of content creators have a lot of star value etc but the reality is they've gotten that star value through intelligence in the category right now today a lot of entrepreneurs have star value right. But the reality is the reason they have star value and well deserve star values because they have intelligence about the category their profession right so I think the reason for that star value is very different. And hence is very, and hence I don't think one displaces the other, I think as a brand we will always be working with content creators because we love them, I think we have a very good relationship with them, I think we respect them a lot as when we make products as users. While I'm making a skincare brand when it comes to travel and look at some other influencers and when it comes to something hair care I look at some other influencer and stars collaborating with stars actors actresses I think that's a very different reason is because I would want to want her personality to rub off on her that's brand creation versus this is more like creating product trust product credibility etc. Perfect. I think you just covered all the length and breadth of everything that I wanted to hear. Thank you so much. The last question. What do we see foxtail doing in the coming fiscal year what are the plans. Grow grow grow grow profitably grow profitably grow profitably and we've already established ourselves in the channels website is already there marketplaces you already there offline is already this is not something that I'm suddenly going to open up a new channel, you will see us going deeper into each channels, which is where both the growth and profitability context comes in. You will see us launch a few more products roughly 70 products in the coming year which I'm very excited about I think some of the products are truly outstanding. Next, early next year you will see us flirt with something new, and I'll talk about it closer to that time but that's again very interesting that's going to come up. You will see us. You know, we are a brand that was built by users from day zero to day now with what product to make our users tell us whether to launch a product or users tell us after launching whether the product is good or not or bad we go back then we do the product then send it to the user who said this is bad and then once they validate we again launch it. So here are the only thing that keeps us going as users and I think we are constantly thinking of how to integrate that more how to be more available to us, whether it's from a sales point point whether it's just from a feedback point point whether it is just from having fun We did one huge lab trial in the last year of October, and which was you know, headlined by Riya Kapoor but we just did a huge experimental lab that we created where people could come and try the products and test if they are working. And it was just a party, it was a party and we loved having fun with them dancing with them having a good time with them. So I think it's just in one way or the other we are constantly trying to solve for the users or trying to talk to her or trying to be with her or be around her to learn from her right so I think you will just see us do more of it whether it's on product whether it's on sales whether it's on operations. And yeah so I don't have any fancy answer for you but deeper penetration into current channels, engaging with our users more in any format, and yeah doing right by the users by launching the right products which I think some of the products will be launched are outstanding. So yeah, that's it. Sounds good. Also this question I should have asked first but probably I'll edit it important first. Why the name foxtail what does it mean. So the name foxtail. So I was doing before I started foxtail right. I knew I wanted to do something in skincare but I was like rose ne brand launch of the coffee popular that every brand comes out with coffee green apple popular that everyone comes out with green apple. So what is but the when that's happening it's like you know, I'm sure you would have gone. I'm 100% sure you would have. You know, we go to a store we buy a new product online order two, three more years. There's something that's wrong and it's easy to acquire users today but very difficult to retain them. So it's like let me go and talk to the users what's happening right. I mean is it just me who was feeling this very strongly or is it yes I interviewed a lot of women in fact I do 937 937 women at that time. There was four months of a lot of conversations and not all. There used to be like you know some people used to be very like some people get caught like Why should we answer your questions but I think that was a. I was really searching for a name, I was like, you know, I'm doing it alone, I don't even know if I'm going to do it. And doing your full-time job and suddenly doing it, I'm like, I need a name that, you know, sometimes centers you. So, but I couldn't find a name, I went through so many, all of that stuff and then there was December 2020, I had gone to Chikmaglur. It's a resort in South India, and there are a lot of, when you go from Bangalore to Chikmaglur, there are a lot of coconut trees. But when we reached the resort, they started giving us a tour. And the first thing, the person who was giving us a tour said, this is not coconut, this is foxtail, F-O-X-T-A-I-L. And it's the most useless plant. And that stuck with me. I was like, what do you mean by everywhere, right? So then we went on to see coffee, it's a coffee plantation, bamboo, everything. We did a one-hour natural-deserved tour. And then we went to the room and while everyone was getting ready, it stuck with me so I googled it up. So it's useless because the seeds are inedible. It's not like coconut trees. If you benchmark it to coconut, it's not as useful because there is no coconut water, coconut oil, nothing can happen. The seeds are inedible. But the roots are extremely strong and hence it's planted in mountainous areas to hold the soil together. Where coffee can grow and coffee is a very important commercial driver for India. And that to me immediately reminded me of my mother because I felt like my dad's gone out to become this fancy lawyer. My brother and I have gone on to do whatever we've gone on to do. But the real fort and kind of the unsung hero, if I may say, or heroine is my mother, right? She holds the fort together for all of us to continue doing all the adventurous stuff that we are doing. And I think it's tour for housewives, right? You can keep, we all get the CEO's societal accolades. But they are the ones that are holding the fort and you never get to know that, right? And then I was like, but you know, Fox is negative, right? Then I love the name. I think I just love the, so I love the name there. But when I love the name, then everyone was like, you know, people I was talking to, like Fox is quite negative, right? Because I'm a bachpanmae, aships and pebbles may put that it's the cunning animal, etc. So that's when I started reading about Fox. Fox is a very cunning animal. Of course, it's a great runner. It's cunning. It's a very, what we say chalak, which is great, right? Like chalak is not necessarily bad, but yeah, there's a negative connotation to it. But Fox is a great mother. Fox is a very nurturing mother in the animal kingdom. And the moment I started reading about her nurturing side and how great a mother and probably one of the best mothers and most nurturing mothers in the animal kingdom. I fell in love with the whole persona that she has. And I love the fact that she's not a Sati Savitri. So I think we as women are constantly told, like I've always been a male dominated job, whether it was banking, whether it's here and I've had women also come in. Do you not want to get married? Do you not want to have kids? Why do you work 18 hours a day? Or it would be the other way, right? So I think women, whenever they're pretty, they can't be smart. They're smart. They're not pretty. If you are wearing heels, then probably you're too snobbish. If you are wearing chappals, then probably you're too chalak. You know this constant compartmentalization. And I think it's time we as women say we are not Sati Savitri. We don't want to be one. I can be a great Alpha CEO and I can also be a great mother at home. It doesn't mean that I'm ambitious. So I can't be a good mother. And it doesn't in any way that if someone chooses to be a housewife, she couldn't have excelled professionally. That's her personal choice. So I think respecting layers in women and her personal choices is what Fox I think encompassed very nicely. And because I was speaking to so many women, one day I came and I, my fiance and my husband, I told him that, you know, you talk to women and you really talk to women for 15 minutes about this, and you will know whether they are married or not, whether the water in the house is hard water, salt water, how much time they spend in the kitchen near the furnace, how much time they spend in the sun, stress. So that's when we came out with the tagline. I happen to say it. It's like every skin has its own story. It was part of the conversation, but that became the tagline of the company because we really feel that every skin has its own story. And unless I know your story, I can't solve for your skin. And by yourself, the skin tells a story, right? The day you're looking dull, you're tired. There might be like a lot of people, the day they are, their mood is off. They are sad. Their skin feels dull. Their eyes get smaller. Like there's a lot of story that skin tells. And unless we know that story, we can't do justice to what we are doing for you. And we changed TAL to TAL. So that's the name Fox. It's a longer explanation, but it's a company that wants to, the vision was to be able to create great products for modern Indian women and respect the complexities she has not only in her life, but also in her skin and be able to solve for those skin complexities. So I think that was it. Well, I think that's the cherry on the cake to the last response of our conversation, the right time to end it sweet. Thank you so much for this amazing insightful conversation. And stay tuned with us, everybody, for upcoming episodes of D2C Revolution where we decode every brand's story. Thank you. Thanks, Tani. Bye.