 Now we're recording and Lynn is in the audience. She will be joining us for the first portion of the meeting to talk about town manager goals. So you can let her in at any point but I'm going to go ahead and call the meeting to order here. Let me just pull up my agenda. Okay, so I'm calling to order the governance organization and legislation committee meeting. I'm on October 26 at 902 am pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public are able to access the meeting in real time via zoom or by telephone. And so we'll just do a quick sound check here. I'll start with you Pat. Present. And Jennifer. Present. Mandy. And Lynn, welcome. Thank you. Okay, you can hear us. Okay. There you are. Good morning. So we have Lynn thank you very much Lynn for joining us. Lynn is going to join us for this first piece of the meeting. This will be our first discussion of town manager goals. And then we'll move on to the discharging of firearms. And we do not have a full legal opinion back on the water regulations by law yet. Although I did hear from Paul and after we get through this all. Oh, because I Mandy with you not being here last week I want to just give you a little bit of an update on that as well. And then depending on timing, we have the scoring matrix and the review of public record status of CAF so we'll have to see timing wise what we what we'll be able to get done. I was able to convert the last town manager goals into somehow miraculously on my phone and back into a word document did that actually work Mandy have you looked at that. I haven't actually looked at the word document I probably have the word document on my computer from last year though, since that modified it in GL last year. Yeah, I think there might have been something in there that had some markups on it, which was probably from last time around. But I would defer to first Lynn and then Pat and Mandy just to give us a quick overview of how this discussion should take shape and and sort of what is the process for having this discussion so I'll start with you Lynn. First of all, I do want to recognize that Pat and Mandy Joe have been part of this in the past and Mandy Joe I think you've been the scribe more or less as the discussion took place as well as kind of doing research, because one of the first things that has been done is that the goals have been updated to refer to any new policies or bylaws or anything that we've done since the last time. The second one, the second thing and since each of you has now either in Pat Mandy Joe's in my case gone through what it's like to evaluate the town manager against these goals and for Jennifer and Michelle. I think the word onerous is where I keep landing. And yet, until we stand back and look at both the evaluation process and the goal setting process. I don't know that we, this is really a well decision I don't think we have an opportunity to tackle this in a different way. I personally look at this and say if I in my previous job had this many goals with this much detail, I would have been horrified. That's something that continues to nag me on the other hand, it does present kind of a record and it reflects, in fact, what the goals are of the Council as well so in many ways, when we evaluate the town manager. So, evaluating him through our lens of whether or not we're achieving what we want to achieve with that said, I really have nothing more to add I think this is really a rich committee discussion that starts with jail and then comes to the Council. And one other thing and that is that as I think several of people have noted during this year, particularly but this is not unique to this year. This has happened before different counselors will bring forward things that were not in the goals for one of the what we're wrestling with right now is whole issue of really looking at composting recycling and trash composting and recycling. And right now, you know, the Board of Health has a trash hauling and recycling policy, but adding compost is raising a lot of different questions and yet that's not reflected in the goals. An example of how do we want to deal with the fact that during any fiscal or calendar year. Additional issues arise because they're raised by constituents they're raised by counselors they're raised by contemporary issues that emerge out there in the world. And how do those get incorporated into goals and Mandy Joe and Pat remind me I think we actually amended the goals one, at least once during mid year, and that this fits into a larger picture and I guess that what I'm trying to say is that the goals become a center point. And how do we fit that into the larger picture. Really, other than that I have no particular input into the goals. Thank you, and Jennifer. Yeah, I just thought that that was a really good example, like with the waste taller bylaw because we actually it came to a conversation during a recent TSO meeting and Paul just said, those are not in my goals for this year. And we said, Oh, okay, we will work hard to get them in the goals for next year. And we literally said, you know, could this grant be submitted to DEP just because it's due now, but we recognize that it's not, you can't start reallocating staff on this. But, so that was our main, but that was very helpful. I mean where we did see that no we have to get it to next year's, because that's how the process works. Two other things. We're also a little off we are off sync. For instance, we're now evaluating the town manager on a set of goals for calendar year. And yet, when he actually submitted his review, his he pointed out in that review, there was still three months left to the calendar year. And there are several things that I know people have been waiting for that he is anticipating trying to complete before 2022. The other thing is the goals are off sync with the, with the fiscal year, which at this time, they have to coordinate at some level with the fiscal guidelines because and the fiscal guidelines have to happen, as they do, about six months in advance of the actual budget. So there's, there's a lot of moving parts here. And, you know, this is a terrific group of people and I respect the fact that you're taking on this piece of those moving parts, but just keep in mind all those moving parts. Yeah. Thank you, Lynn. Thank you, Jennifer. Are there Mandy or Pat, would you like to just add any sort of introductory comment before we get into a discussion. Oh, okay. Yeah, what's most striking to me is what you said Lynn and I think I even included this in my evaluation that it really does feel like these goals are the closest thing to a council vision. And yet, it's a lot of stuff that, you know, Paul, if he is using it in like the way that you said Jennifer, where he's referencing that's not in my goals so then it's important for us to be. I thought I actually I thought the goals were so well done and very very specific, which was great. So Mandy, do you want to pull up the, we're able to find the word document there. Or yours or the one that's in the packet. Yes, Pat. Thanks. It's that word specific and are we being, are we, are we trapping change or or by not having by being having so much specificity. This is what you work on this is what you work on because it seems to me that municipal life government life management town management of it doesn't really quite work the way we seem to think and, and everybody gets, and I'm being extreme everybody gets their favorite thing in there. And is that really the council vision because we we say certain things and then we work on other things. So I'm, there's part of me that really would like to see what is it that we want to see in a good town manager. So I'm going to evaluate Paul, in this instance, reflection of what we want in a town manager. And so, so I don't know, I'd like to see something simpler. That's a great point. And I think to Lynn's point about the whole process and where this fits into the process I have heard. I myself, what a bear it was to do this evaluation. And there have been other comments made around how staff perceives the evaluation. And, and so, where are we in that thought process about the actual evaluation process and where these goals fit in. Where we're evaluating him on how well he meets the goals. Right, but if we're, if we're thinking about changing the evaluation process of the town manager for the future, as we said, we would also include thinking about how we're creating these goals. And I heard Pat say simpler. I liked that word. But, you know, there are people are not saying this about Paul just structurally, you know, if you don't know who's different people will be in the town manager position. But if the elected officials don't give specific goals, and he can create his own within broad categories, that's giving a lot of power to someone who's not elected. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. That's also a consideration. Yes, Mandy. And I agree with Jennifer, and that's where we've seen as Pat and Lynn can attest where we've seen a change in how we present these goals I think when our first year was here it was like a list of 100 and some specific small things that he needed to do. So specific, it was like, you need to do this one thing with this one person in town hall, you know, and it was almost a checklist and we've moved away in some sense from that checklist, but yet it is still kind of a checklist and that's why, you know, I think, if you look at our policy goal on climate action, we could go as general as, you know, take actions that will allow the town to meet the council's goals on climate action of zero net zero or carbon neutrality by 2050. But that might be too general. Right, because we've got a carp we've got this, but he probably needs some work he might. It might be helpful to him I don't know whether Paul needs it, but I he might believe and perceive it very helpful if the council said you know these are the way this is the direction we want you to go to start meeting that goal and giving him some direction. Whether it still needs these I think this one I'm looking and I just happened to be looking at this one, six specific things. Does it need to be that specific or not, I don't know and I think that's where this committee and then the council has struggled with, how do we maintain that balance between, and I'm just using climate action because it's the easiest one and it's the first we've adopted a policy right that in 2025 we're supposed to have reduced by this number in 2030 this number and in 2050 that number between just saying meet that policy and giving him some direction on where we'd like to go for him to meet that policy. And I don't know what the right answer is right I found myself in evaluating the manager this year, looking more holistically at stuff, instead of, even though I did mention some of these specific one through sixes in this one or in this other one. I started looking more holistically at is the town moving towards that is, and what part does the manager play in that and so do we change the policy side to you know these are council policy goals. And here's how we think you should meet meet them. The management goals I think I still stand behind we probably have to look a little closer at them and modify them every year but again, I don't know what the right answer is because I would love to have an easier evaluation process. I, what we give him in these four pages is unrealistic for him to comply with completely right there's just too much there. How do we give Paul or any future manager, the appropriate level of direction when the council is the policy center, but allow the manager to make decisions that any CEO of any company or nonprofit or town should be making without getting in the manager's way. Can I help at all. Well I have a follow up and then I'll go to you Jennifer just did Mandy did you do the research of other how other communities do their evaluation and their goals or was that some was that Pat or somebody else. Lynn mentioned research. And to try to do it never got done and I accept responsibility for that, along with the rest of the council. Yeah, I actually don't know what GOL did four years ago. That's a long time. It was a world memo from Evan was that. Yeah, it might have been before this was even called GOL. It was like a 15 page. He was on GOL so he might have done something. I can try to find that and try to find it. Yeah, if we I think having a doing a little bit of research on. No, I'm sorry, I'm sorry it was about how to appoint member member bodies. I'm sorry. Yeah, we got that was a good memo. Evan writes good memos I was going through I'm like oh another Evan memo. Jennifer sorry. Yeah, no I just want to say pick it up well Mandy said is what also came up. And during TSO and the discussion about waste hauler was so we were actually having a little disagreement of whether that bylaw would was a priority for ECAC. So that's where you also get if you say well work towards implementing the ECAC goals. You know, some people like the, you know, the town manager didn't think it was a necessarily one of their priorities it was just on the list other people thought it was so that's where maybe some specificity is helpful. Mandy you said something about. Let me know if I didn't hear this right but council policy goals versus management goals, and I'm that stuck out to me. You said that. So our performance goals are split into two sections. They say right now policy goals and then they say management goals. The original impetus for that was to say you know the manager's got a whole bunch of things that he has to do by the charter that in theory doesn't really relate to anything the council wants to get done. And that's very general right he has to manage the employees he has to, in some sense present budgets. He doesn't necessarily have to be balanced although there's state laws but his job is to give the council a budget that's part of the charter his job is to administer contracts his job is to deal with the negotiations of union contracts and stuff like that and so there's, there's a part of the council that they really are trying to outline and say you know he's got all these things and that's particularly the first one under the management goals. We still expect him to do all of that and do it well, but then the council's role beyond being a legislature under the charter is to set the town policy, and the council has sort of used this first half of these performance goals in the past to direct the council to give vision to what the council's policy priorities are right we've added community health and safety in in various years we've added I think, you know some other things but we struggled early on with how do we be a policy better. And one of the tools we've used are these performance goals. And so now he's got the management side and he's also got finding a way to implement and which is part of the charter implement the policy goals of the council. So I don't know whether, but I was saying maybe we should just be direct and say those policy goals are the council's policy goals that you need to implement, you know, instead of implying that they're his policy goals. But, but that's sort of where that split came in. Yeah. Jennifer. I was just gonna say because I think on the management. Well, I'm getting to my personal opinion. You know we have a town manager that is really excellent at management and administration has financial skills, and then I found myself on the policy side, and maybe more so because I wasn't on the last council, like you're having to evaluate him maybe I'm implementing a policy you don't agree with. I mean, you know, myself, maybe, I had to realize he hadn't set the policy and it didn't matter whether I agreed with the policy this is what he was set to do. So that was very challenging and being dispassionate about that. I don't know if I was successful. That's interesting though that's really interesting. Yeah. I guess, Pat. Yeah, just building on what Jennifer said, you know, about her personal process whether she, you know, agreed with the goal or not. That's across the town that's residents are doing that and so they're, they're really, and that's not. It's almost like there should be a council evaluation. I mean an election is a council of you know individual evaluation in a certain kind of way, but I'm actually seriously saying, if we're setting the policy. If you want to. And, and Paul, where the town manager is working on implementing our goals I can stick waste taller in commute, you know, health and safety I can stick it in all these other places. Whether I agree with the waste hauling thing or not isn't really important, but every but almost everybody staff everybody is responding from their own personal position and we know I don't see how we can really take that into account. I don't know what your process of looking at yourself and think I don't agree with this goal, but he's done a good job or poor job of meeting it. Yay, it was a poor job unhappy. So some things out of stink and you know, I don't know, I don't know I'm blathering I've been up since 4am I apologize. No it's true. I mean what you said it's Jennifer went to bed at 4am Pat woke up at 4am Lynn caught the joke way late and laughed like 30 seconds after you said that's good. So I just want to add one other thing that I want to recognize that we have Anna in the audience. And so if Anna, I want to open up a public comment period quickly to just invite Anna to contribute to the discussion. But I quickly just wanted to say, you know, as everyone's talking what I was thinking about is what is her the charter, the role of the town manager. And I think that's a really important question for us to ask, and I'm wondering if her the charter. The role of the town manager is to like what is the relationship between the role and the implementation of our policy. What is that like what is, is he said, what is that relationship and I would like to explore that a little bit more because I think that will help us to clarify a little more. What we're talking about. So Anna, if you I'm going to open a public comment period up. Quick, just read the quick statement public comments on that. Do I need to read the statement I'm opening a public comment period up on is the only one in the audience and if she would like to make a comment right now. Please raise your hand on a great. All right. Welcome. Hi, it always feels weird to just stay quiet when like I know I'm the only one here I don't necessarily have anything to ground breaking to share. The only thing I will say is if it's possible to switch y'all I don't know who's like sharing that or who's the host but it's possible to switch y'all to gallery view then it's a lot easier just as a viewer note they that's so much better. Okay. So, yeah I mean I think that the thing that really intrigues me is how much the town manager goals set the direction of the council and and I think Lynn and I have talked about this way back when we were talking about the first retreat was. I don't something I've really struggled with is feeling so bound by priorities and not feeling like there's flexibility to address current events or resident concerns or things like that and so I'm curious how we can build goals that also include a degree of flexibility without creating an environment that's going to be taking advantage or creating an impossible. Bar to clear right so I know that nandy and I have dealt with this with the streetlight thing that was something that came up it was not something that I think we would have necessarily prioritized in the last set of goals but that doesn't mean it's not important. And that same thing goes for for composting and zero waste right so I think one of the things that I'm really curious about as we go into this goal setting process is one. Why are the why is the council so deeply bound by the town manager goals, and to how do we introduce flexibility, while still creating an environment that things can get done right creating a goal that says be flexible and meet our every need is not reasonable. So I'm, I'm, I'm messing with those. And, you know, I. Yeah, I guess I'll pause there. Thank you Anna. Thanks. You're welcome and go ahead. No, I just. And this is something that on and I have discussed and, and I'm sure Mandy Joe and I are discussed at some point. Another thing I want to really emphasize is that the town manager works for the council. He is the full time executive of the town. He is the best of you, but I didn't go on the council to do administrative work. Now I do some because of being president. Some, those of you that are chairs do some because of being chairs of committees. Okay. But, you know, for instance, I was recently, someone tried to draw me into a dispute resolution over a fiscal matter with the town. It's not my job. But when we set our goals, that becomes our statement to the town manager of where we expect him to spend time where we expect him to assign staff where we expect him to place budget priority. If we don't do that to the town manager, then I think we've been remiss in providing vision and direction for the town manager and the town. So it's, it's walking a fine line, but it's one. We need to all remember we are not the paid full time executive of the town. That's what I have to say. Thank you and Mandy. So, I wonder if it's time for us to remove the policy goals from the manager performance goals in the specificity that they are, and instead put a goal in there that sort of mimics the language in this first climate action goal because the first action goal is to prioritize and implement regulatory fiscal and other actions to meet the climate action goals adopted by the council. But could we have a management goal of prioritize and implement regulatory fiscal and other actions to meet the town council's policy goals. And then the council adopted document that basically looks like these first, what, what in the draft in the performance goals this year is the policy goals, where we basically split it up and say here are the council's goals. And we expect the manager to implement through those regulatory fiscal other whatever actions those goals in the manner he sees fit. At the same time going to honest thing, putting somewhere in that goal and also other additional, you know, legislative actions that are proposed and referred to the council committees or something right because we can say we need climate action we need economic vitality we need health and safety and diversity equity inclusion and all of this. As Anna said waste hauling might fit into that. Lighting might fit into that right but things might come up that don't really fit into that that we'd still need staff support for. So can maybe the thing to do is split this document into a council policy priorities, and then just a management, a manager performance goals that references the council's policy priorities. I think I saw Jennifer and then Lynn. I'm trying to follow this through so with the waste hauler bylaw that gets the, it gets referred to TSO. And then with what, you know, Mandy you just outlined. So what if, you know, at the town manager were to say that so then it's up to him to decide whether he wants to include it in his action items. See, because if we say it's a goal for let's say the coming year then it will be addressed but. I think I understand what you're saying is that he has more discretion and more sort of power to decide which he's going to take up if we're yeah. Okay, Lynn and then Mandy. Andy Joe suggestion. I, I would take your all your management goals and love, love, put them into one goal, so that you don't lose kind of the broad sense of each of the goals underneath. And that, you know, maybe that means we have seven goals. Yeah, it's just, but I like the idea that we recognize that the, the top six are the council's priorities, and then we provide some flexibility, but I really want to also emphasize if the ability to put that in this year's budget, if it is, isn't there, then we can't evaluate the town manager negatively if he if we didn't put it in the budget. So, you know, for example, I'm you know street lighting. Now, maybe that's going to be a multi year goal to change the shades on the street lights okay that whatever that is or whatever else might happen. And so we just need to understand that, which brings me to my second point, these are multi year goals. And when you, and we all began to recognize that I think last year or the year before, which is one of the reasons why we keep amending these goals because we recognize we're not going to achieve climate action in one year. And yet it's going to remain a goal for because of its importance. The same thing is true for all the rest of them. That's all. Thank you. Mandy. Yeah, I just want to say Jennifer's got a good point. I think we could figure out a way to word the language in either the council policy goals or the performance review document to indicate that when, you know, and it might just require in the past the council's done things like directing the manager to do something or changing our own goals as part of X motion right when we were we did that a lot in 2020 as we were adopting CSWG things and and looking towards Crescent all a lot of the motions also included just changing the policy goal part of the performance review document to get that in there somehow, but it could have some sort of his, his under town. I don't know. There's, there's like a management goal about town council. It's called relationship with the town council part of that one could be supporting all of the committees at a staff level that reflects any changes in town council policies or new legislative priorities and proposals or something like that, where that's where it comes into sort of better specifying to the manager you know climate action and health safety and welfare now includes this waste hauling, for example, because the council's referred it it's a legislative thing and through these other management goals you have to support it. There's probably a way to do it is I guess what I'm saying. Would somebody speak to the relationship between the goals and the budget guidelines so Lynn you had mentioned that and I, it would help me to see how those two fit together as well. Like maybe one concrete. I mean my interpretation, and having been on the finance committee, I guess since its inception. When the finance committee develops the goals. I mean the guidelines, it clearly takes into account the goals. Very definitely takes into account the goals. There has been some debate in the past about how closely it should reference those goals, and I imagine that debate will take place again this year, but it definitely drives which is one of the reasons why it's important that we're having the goals discussion before the guidelines discussion, and yet we're having it right after each of you have, I want to accept, except for one, have done your town manager evaluations. Okay, so you, it's fresh in your mind. So, it's a good sequence is what I'm saying and yes, it's totally taken into consideration in the guide financial guidelines. Yeah, so is this a good example of where something arose, and it was able to just be dealt with and that's the changes to the sewer and waterline by law, you know that was an issue that came up this calendar year, and it got dealt with this calendar, you know. So that that was maybe because it didn't require beyond a certain level of resources and staff time that it could happen now, and wasn't like for that we weren't advised to have that in the next year's goals. And that's a great example of something that arose because of a constituent, and frankly, many more constituents since then that keep emerging over this issue and I'm going to be honest and say because of declining infrastructure under the ground around Amherst and the rest of the country that we're going to see this goal be much more important over the next several years. So, but it's an excellent example. The reality is the financial part of that isn't going to happen until after the fiscal year, following the year in which we adopt them. So if we adopt sewer and water. This year, the first we're going to see the implementation is when we adopt the sewer and water fees for FY 24. So there's that it's one of those things but it's taken an enormous amount of staff time. We're fortunate to have any russick as the, you know, being the expert that she is on these issues. But it's an excellent example. I am still coming back to this question in my mind of what the role of the town manager with respect to not being an elected official and what discretion we believe the town manager has to chase a vision or to implement or execute on a vision that's, you know, the council and Lynn, yes, please. I meant to say this earlier. At some point in the very near future, GOL should ask the town manager to meet with you to give his input on any proposed goals. And then at the next meeting, there's a point at which he should give you some input, and he may say hey listen, I see this issue coming up this next year. And I don't think there's any way to avoid it and so please consider that. Okay. Yes, Lynn and I that was actually the next point I was going to make is or ask about is do we want to invite the town manager on November 9, which is our second discussion. And is there anybody else that we should be. I can't imagine someone in my head right now but that there were feedback would be helpful to receive feedback from on this. All right. Well it's 942 I think we've had a good first discussion on this, I will absolutely invite Paul to join and wondering if in terms of like other counselors I'm really happy that Anna was here to participate, maybe just letting people know that we are talking about this in GOL if they want to join. And yes, Mandy, obviously just as a public comment matter not to join Mandy. I just wanted to know what we as a committee as committee members should be doing to prepare for that next meeting should I be reviewing the whole goal document and coming in with what amendments I'd like to amend it, or what amendments I'd like to see. Or are we still sort of just talking in broad terms where that's a little premature I guess I just want to know what I should be doing to be ready and so that we can have a very productive conversation this one has been productive. But at some point we need a document right and so what what should we do. Thanks Mandy when you do start to put pen to paper on something it does help to guide us so if you have time between now and then to be able to do some of that I think it would be really helpful. In the meantime I think I would like to do a little bit of research about what other communities are doing, maybe look at some other communities goals that they're published, and then be able to provide that information to the committee, and then maybe the rest of the committee members can also be thinking about, you know, what we've talked about today. And I really think that the discussion coming back to the management goals versus the policy goals is something that we should really, and maybe when you're thinking about it Mandy if just honing in on that idea and using that as a step forward to talk about it next time. Work. Okay. All right. Lynn, do you have any any other comments or. Okay. On to my next meeting is which starts the 10 by. Thank you Lynn. Thanks a lot for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for asking. Great. Great. So, I am just looking quickly. Let's see. So, we have the discharging of firearms bylaw, we received a pretty thorough legal opinion from KP law. And so we can come back. This is bylaw 3.2 to discharging of firearms and just to be clear in case somebody's watching the video. This is a, this is a bylaw that we've already began to review and we're waiting on a legal opinion and if you would like to see that legal opinion it is in the packet for this week's GOL meeting. And I did send a note to chief living stone. I gave him the, you know, option to come I did only send it early this morning so I didn't have just everything going on hadn't had a chance to speak with him sooner about it but he had provided initial input and he also was copied on the legal opinion. Paul copied him so he had a chance to see that and I hadn't heard any feedback from him after receiving that. So did everyone have a chance to look at that. The legal. Okay. So I'm just going to open up the floor for comments or questions about the legal opinion and see what we got. And we could, I could just bring that up here. Yes, Mandy. So I'm still processing it but I think the way I read it was removing the shotgun exception doesn't affect the laws related to hunting in the town in Massachusetts and in the town which was one of my biggest concerns about removing the shotgun exception. And on the other hand, the whole bylaw itself continues to be subject to massive amounts of challenges is sort of how I interpreted this entire legal opinion in my first read I haven't had a chance to do more than sort of briefly read it right now. So is that the same way that other people sort of interpreted what was said that we can remove it as long as we don't touch that sort of opening section and I'm trying to pull up the general bylaws without really almost changing a lot of the effect of the bylaw yet because of the recent Supreme Court rulings in Bruin. The whole bylaws potentially subject to challenge, no matter what. And if that's the same interpretation other people have. I might, I just want to make sure that other people have that same interpretation before I make comments on that one. Pat. I see Pat shaking her head. I was agreeing with that interpretation. Yes, I also agree. That is how I interpreted it. And so it, I think, keeping that MGL keeping that piece in there is necessary. It does not affect as she as she said it's not hunting bylaw. And yet, she's also saying that there's been issues with these and may continue to be issues with these. So, absolutely Jennifer did you is was that your sense of things. I hadn't read it. I have to. I missed it in the packet so I can. Okay. Well, let me I'm not able to share my screen. I do I brought it up so I have it here. I was looking at it. I'm just going to share it quickly in case if you know someone watches over this and if we want to just look at it let me see if there we go. Thank you. Okay. So here we go. One of the things I didn't have the opportunity to do was to click on it said that other municipalities had done similar it said that somewhere. And was there a link or there's a link to the Bruin case but I don't remember a link to other communities. And the link to the Bruin is KP laws. One of their legislative updates or more things that we regularly get. I don't think it's the language of the case I think it's their summary of what that means for towns in Massachusetts. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, I keep bouncing back to the guy who came into town hall with his video recorder because he could. I don't think it almost matters. I mean it does matter what the law says it's going to be challenged in Massachusetts is a state where you know, if you've been watching MSNBC enough, you know that will be a target state on so many levels. Yeah, Jennifer was watching MSNBC that was the joke. You weren't here yet when she says why couldn't sleep last night. Mandy. Yeah, so to Pat's point and what I wanted to say if that was our interpretation is if Massachusetts is being a target is the change to remove the discharge of shotguns or air guns that we've been talking about a big enough change to potentially bring that target down on Amherst because I guess one of the things I'm looking at given this opinion is yes we could do it yes we could put it on our agenda yes we could put it on our bulletin board and do it. But that puts it out there a lot more in the public, such that it might bring a legal challenge more quickly to our town versus another town, because we'd be actually modifying something, then if we just let things lie as they are. I don't know this is just a question of would actively trying to amend this now bring about potentially that target to Amherst versus some other town, and is it worth doing this amendment now. If that isn't a real possibility and I could just be speculating way too much but that's what I wanted to say and I don't know where I stand on that, but it was one thing that hit my mind. Yeah, Pat. Yeah. What comes up for me when I hear us, because I've had that response in myself to when I hear us sort of saying oh well maybe we shouldn't do this because we're going to draw attention to Amherst and I go back to the sanctuary bylaw, which was just making Amherst a sanctuary city was a bylaw that targeted us for a while. Things are much worse now, but I, I am really uncomfortable with our fear. And being what guides us. And, and, you know, I don't want the town sued I don't know there's all kinds of things I worry about but if fear determines what we're allowed to do as as legislators, or we're, that's extremely problematic. So I think we should decide what we want to do and take the risk. I agree. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's been bubbling up for a while in this discussion that this is a political issue, and I appreciate what Mandy's bringing forward. And I also agree that I think that shouldn't be our guide in terms of how we decide to move forward with this that does bring the earlier point that Mandy made I think maybe in the first discussion about, you know, what we're trying to solve here and I think it really is a statement it's a political statement in a lot of ways what we would be doing in this change and so it's possible that that is a council discussion you know we can make a recommendation as a committee but also being aware that there's a bigger discussion to be had about what Pat just really brought out which is where are we as a town in terms of I mean some of the things that we're doing crests reparations other things they are their political issues and their issues that are putting shining the light on us and where are we as a council with respect to that. And I think that's a really, really rich point of discussion. And this could be a catalyst for that if that's how we want to approach it or if it's a separate conversation that is sort of originated from this particular recommendation that we might make. So I'm just going to move this down. So I am personally prepared to move to recommend that we remove that exemption, but I don't want to do that before all of that we've had a that we've had a discussion that covers everybody's questions and if there's anything more I just wanted to check my email to make sure that Chief Livingstone didn't send a reply to my email check real quick. No so I don't have anything additional Paul seeing the seeing the legal review also did not provide any additional feedback. Yes, Jennifer. Okay, so I just want to know when you say, remove the exemption so there will be an exemption for hunting, or would that be removed. No, everything else would stay the same. The only thing we'd be removing is that is it a. I think it's a right, maybe a one we need to renumber and reformat the rest of the bylaw but I'm a one and that's why I wanted to clarify my understanding because my understanding of reading that legal opinion is that shotgun air gun line, whether it's there or not hunting is controlled by state law, not whatever we do and so it doesn't actually have its presence or absence has no bearing on whether people are allowed to hunt and in what circumstances and how. Right. Particularly, basically one of my big concerns. Yeah, primary. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, we had talked about a hunting bylaw and she mentions that this is not a hunting bylaw, but it covers the state law allows for that so that's so so yeah, Jennifer would just be removing that one. Okay. Is there any other. Any other comments or points of discussion on this would then Mandy are you still in sort of thinking mode or. No, I'm good. I'm good. Like I said I have briefly read it and I know some people have read it more so I wanted to make sure my brief reading was in conformance with what other people thought it said. Okay. Okay, so when a motion is made in this case, as you said, in order to format reformat does any of that have to be in the motion or does that sort of happen automatically. I think the motion should just say, you know, if it's to delete section a one, then it could say and to renumber subsequent sections appropriately, I think it's got our hand up so she'll tell you. Yeah, yes. Okay, sorry I'm new heads up. I think it's either in the rules or the chair somewhere that says the town clerk just automatically renumbers things as they're amended so I don't think we have to, you know, instruct the town clerk to do that she just does it as a matter of course when bylaws are amended. Perfect. Even better. All right, so if there isn't more discussion, I am going to move to delete section a one from bylaw 3.2 to discharging of firearms. And great. Okay, and is there any further discussion. I will write a thorough memo on this one by the way for the council, including the legal. Yes, I was just going to say, could you include the legal opinion in the memo. Definitely. Sorry for, I didn't raise my hand I have my hands on somewhere else but can I. So your motion is to recommend an amendment to, is it okay if I fiddle with those words to recommend an amendment to delete and okay thank you. Yes, that would be great. God for you, honey. All right, any other discussion. Okay, let's start with you Jennifer. I, I am an eye Mandy. I am Pat. I awesome. All right, so that one passes unanimously and let one absence with one absence. Thank you. Good call. All right, excellent. So, we just take a quick peek here. I want to quickly check in I had previously asked Anna to be a mock person for our interview with this scoring matrix. So I am just checking in on it. Would you raise your hand if you were expecting to be playing that role today. Okay. Athena if you could bring on and that would be great. I don't have to. I'm always happy. I actually almost texted you this morning to confirm but it's totally fine happy to be here anyway I'm doing other stuff too. Okay, so I'm not sure where we're going to go look Pat go ahead, you were going to say no I was going to make a flip remark. Are you making fun of me. I was going to say it doesn't matter what you do we'd never hire you select you. So that's always, I don't know whether that's a wise move or not Pat honestly. Well, the idea was Mandy since you weren't here last time we had talked actually Anna brought us through last time had created a sample matrix and sort of it was, I think on acknowledged it was sort of briefly put together based on the interview questions that were being used. So it wasn't like set in stone it was just sort of put out there and we had decided that we could potentially go through and try to use the, the matrix. Now, I just want to look at the agenda and ask everybody. So, quickly on the water regulations by law just to get that out of the way. There are a couple of small things they need to follow up on. It won't be ready until November 9, and one of the questions will be setting the quantum of fines you want to impose. They will put the maximum in the bylaw and the council can choose the level of fine you want to impose. So, Anna, would you just fill in Mandy since she was not here at our meeting last week sort of what happened when we started reviewing this bylaw in the meeting last week and then recognize that the, the piece basically was and the enforcement stuff was on. We still had questions. So basically, my brain was so much on the regulations that I did not set did not work with TSO to set proposed fine amounts in the bylaw. And so when we went through it at GL we needed to confirm that they were aligned with aligned with state requirements but also to basically to confirm that we're able to not need to redo the regulations in order to adjust the fine amounts and so we were just playing with wording to navigate how to do that best. But I sent you stuff with a bunch of X's and TBD's and that's not that's basically the long and short of it. Thank you Mandy. Just a couple of questions for whoever's contacting Paul and all and doing this. So, I think I had this question first and and it's one that I'm concerned about. The bylaw has a violation and a fine, but the bylaw only allows it basically says the council can adopt regulations and here's how they do it. I'm not sure that means the violation of the regulations have a fine. And so that's one of the questions I would have is we delve into this if there's still legal opinions. If there's a violation of the regulations fine or do we have to put that somewhere in the bylaw that this fine covers, if the council doesn't adopt regulations, but also any violations of the regulations. Yeah, it should be in the appendix of the regulations and the way the bylaws written, I gotta I don't have it pulled up in front of me sorry. But it should be in the appendix I think it's appendix a and the way the bylaws written. It should allow us to adjust, just appendix a without having to revisit the entire, the entire kit and caboodle. And I, I apologize I don't have it. It was not to talk about it today but I'll confirm that. I think the idea is that we don't need to like open the whole envelope in order to adjust rates but also there are, there are fines as set forth in the, in the, in the regulations. I'll have to think about that more and read this a little more closely on how that goes but that that was one of my concerns so yeah and there's specific violations they're not just if you violate any regulation right there are certain specific violations that pertain to different elements of the regulations so like, I'm gonna, I might be giving an untrue example but one of them was, you know, if you have a violation relating to a fire hydrant it's going to be a different course of action then if you have a violation related to like paying your water bill or something. And so it's not just one blanket you violated the regs because we also have an entire appeals process in there as well. I guess the next question I would have is do we need fine, do we need penalties for violation of the bylaw. Because if the bylaw itself is only the council sets regulations and the regulations set. I see it for violating of the regulations does the bylaw itself need this data block and penalties. I think Athena might come save me but she also might make my life. She might give me more good questions to answer. I don't know. That was exactly my question last time we talked about this if there are fines in the bylaw do we need to have those fines copied into the regulations or vice versa. My understanding was that the bylaw just needs to point at the regulations where all the fines exist so that when we update those, we don't have to modify the bylaw that was my understanding of what we wanted the process to look like. And so when we looked at the bylaw and there are fines and there's an enforcement authority and so forth it was like, do we need this section or can we just say point at the regulations in that section and that's that's what my understanding was that we wanted to do. But it seemed like we weren't sure about what legal references needed to be included there and the language that we ought to use. And it seemed like maybe everybody wasn't on the same page in terms of how that should be worded in the bylaw. So are there specific questions on a, I'm just going to pull up the questions that you sent to Paul so that we can, is that okay if I pull up that email and then that way we can make sure that what is being addressed is what we want. So, let's see. There we go. So this is what Anna has sent to have answered. And I'm sure I probably should have included this in the packet so I apologize for not doing that and I will. Athena, I think is copied on this but I will make sure Athena gets this again to include it. I'm really good at DPW enforcement that I'm really good at writing now. I said can DPW enforcement to that. I just love when love when my quick fire off emails are in public record, I always public record but you know, you can make an amendment if you'd like before. Already public record. That's pretty funny actually. That's a good position. Oh man. I mean, I think number six covers sort of what I was asking, which is, what's the data block in the bylaw actually. What does that fine apply to, and I read it as applying to the council not instituting regulations, or the regulation amendments not coming from the manager I've got some questions with the language of the bylaw but that data block as having any effect on if a violation is violated what penalty comes in then and I think number six is what that sort of says, or is talking about. And this is I think what Athena was also getting right yeah. So I'm not sure we have to add I don't think I have any other questions to add. Perfect. Do any other members have additional questions to add. Okay, Mandy, you just said that you have some comments on the bylaw itself I think when we receive the bylaw, I don't think TSO had made any changes to what Paul had proposed is that correct Donna. Significant right. No, because all we had was in his memo. I remember talking about that last time it was just that bylaw. So, Mandy, do you want to review the recommendations that you have now since we have on here. And are you ready to do that I should say, I mean I could talk about them I just always wonder is it gls place to talk about parts of the substance that I don't like right. That's why I, I hesitate to do that. I probably couch some of them as a clarity or consistency thing. Mostly it's substantive that I've got concerns with and I'm happy to talk to Anna about that offline if she wants to hear what my other concerns are but that's why I hesitate to say anything other than what I've said about my questions. That would be helpful Athena do you know, when this is coming back up. I don't know if you've talked to unique at all about the TSO agenda otherwise I can reach out to her. I don't think we have an agenda set for the next meeting yet so. One of us can. Yeah because Mandy while you're at it if you, oh I'm sorry Athena, go ahead. Mandy if you're while you're at it if you, the sewer one is basically identical so I'd like to be. I'd like to be done with this. And so comments on that that I assume would be very similar would be welcome I'm going to try to get both of them done at the same time at TSO. And the last time we talked about this, just before we actually pulled it up to look at it. All the members were like this thing flew through faster than anything else and this. Everybody was giving all of these accolades, and then we got to it and we're like fault and Anna's like, Oh, it was really funny. No, but this is, you know, at one TSO, I was saying this was amazing I think you thought I was just referring to how fast it went that night but I wasn't it was this whole process is just a model for things can actually get done. All credit goes to Amy or second truly. Thank you in the same way that TSO on water is with its flood maps. We're ready to be done. I'm ready to be done and I'm not even on CRC I haven't even been talking about it. Only been a decade I don't know. Anna, why are the bylaws going back to TS. Didn't the water bylaw already go through TSO or it did but these are such substantive changes that back. So it would go back as because of the substantive changes that we've talked about. That's my take. Yeah. All right. So yeah, Mandy if you could get with Anna offline then we'll we'll just move on from that that would be great. Okay. So now we have the option of either try attempting to do a mock interview or continuing discussion on the matrix or the long awaited review of public record status of CAFs is also on our agenda for today so and I know that Mandy really wanted to be here for that and speak to that so we waited on that one. Of course, yeah. So I'm open to, yes Jennifer. This is CAFs that are for the town manager appointed multiple member bodies because aren't the council's CAFs already public, or no, nobody's CAFs are public. Okay. So if we see the council ones, we don't see the town ones. That's the public doesn't see any of them. Okay. Right. So why don't we, Anna, are you, I think let's let's take that on and table the matrix until we have like a little bit more time and just there was a lot already that happened this morning so I'd want to be more organized with that but you're, you know, welcome to this piece. I will I'll head back to the audience. I cannot be here at your next meeting just so you know, which is the ninth correct. Yes, it is. I can be here. I don't know if you're meeting the day before Thanksgiving but I could be here that we can talk but I just I know I won't be able to be here next time. Okay. Not to say we should do it. I think your plan sounds fine, because there's more you could do before getting to a mock interview anyway. I'm also wondering if for the water, because that is going to be we're going to have that legal review back. Yeah. Paul did say that he will get it to me way in advance of the ninth so I could send you know you'd get it to because and then you could just provide comments if you need to in advance. Okay, okay and I can see if someone else from TSO can be there if you would like me to. I think we'll be here. Yeah. Okay, so maybe she can speak to it if I'm not here. Thanks y'all. Have a good rest of your day. Okay bye bye. All right. So, I am going to turn. Oh, sorry, I missed your hand. I'm sorry. No, I didn't. I just put it up after I spoke. Tush. I really, this isn't quite part of the agenda but it's, it's part of the selection process in terms of the SOI. We give interviewees the questions in advance. And I would like us to think about why we're doing that. I think that there's something important in interviews I've been in and ones that where I've been interviewing other people, I want to know what my questions are and I want to ask the same questions to everyone. My follow up questions are based on what's there, what's shared, but also it gives me more of an insight into the person and how they think then having time to prepare and write it out and do all of that so it's just I don't want to waste our time but that's something I really want us to think about. I'm going to mute us my phones ringing. Okay. That's a good question and I do remember that coming up. I don't know if it was when we were interviewing for the finance appointment but I remember we briefly touched on that Mandy. And I'll just give a quick summary is the tug and pull of this from my point of view which is, if the committee agrees to the questions. Because the committee has, you know, if we've got a policy that says the committee picks the questions. That's done in a public meeting. And so, if you're doing it in a public meeting and then you're not just if you then don't send them to all candidates. There's been an argument made that you are then referencing the candidates that know to pay attention to the prior meeting to find out what the questions are. And so it's a tug and pull between do does the committee come up with questions as a committee, or, and then should they be disclosed because you don't want to preference the candidates that no town government, or does each individual committee member come up with a question and Pat and I have been in committees that have done it both ways. But but that sort of has been historically the tug and pull in that one. And so I'm going to give a quick summary as to why it's kind of like that and I'm, I certainly am open to that discussion again because, as with Pat, I find it strange. But equally strange not to do it because of what you point out and actually the equitable, the equitable piece about that and that that's really, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I don't want to maybe sit with Pat's question and we're not going to answer it right now. Jennifer, or we can. So I guess along those, I mean, in terms of being able to ask follow up questions, it seems like a natural that I mean that is how interviews are conducted. But yeah, I mean how do they not maybe get a little, not meaning to, I mean I could see them getting a little confrontational, if people really get into. You know, I mean, can we avoid that happening where somebody gives a response somebody isn't agreed with it and then has, you know, that they start debating that issue. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. If individual if individual counselors are making or coming up with questions that haven't been discussed by the full committee there might not be congruence and it could turn into a situation where one committee member asks a question that other committee members feel is out of line or out of line and then it's like, then we're in conflict as a body, you know, so that's, and you don't want to make it onerous because we want people to apply. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep. All right, Mandy, do you want to talk about the, the caps. Well, I just want to say thank you for waiting until I could be at a meeting to talk about this. I've struggled for the council since day one, both on whether the caps for council committed more appointed multiple member bodies are released and also whether the council or even the public gets to see those caps that were submitted for manager appointed multiple member bodies and I still stand with keeping on private but I wanted to bring up and yet I'm open to this conversation but one thing that I wanted to bring up about why at least the council ones where I stand on that one a little bit more and I haven't thought much about the manager ones I'll say that at all is, we've seen a lot of people apply or submit caps. You know, even for finance but particularly if you go back two or three years there's 20 or 30 caps submitted for anyone, sometimes planning board or, or zoning board of appeals normally planning board has a higher number. Yeah, as people have seen when we get to the interview stage when we get to that SOI stage there's only about five sometimes or less three. One thing that worries me in releasing everyone's name is it does not give a person sort of the ability to at one point read a newspaper article and say oh hey I might be interested and then pull out without their name coming up and potentially then being contacted by X number of people in the public of why didn't you do this why did you pull out why that and then having to justify to people in the public. Why they chose not to submit an SOI. If we're looking for more people to apply. I don't know whether it's wise for us to put residents in that position to have to potentially defend why they stopped the process before submitting an SOI. Because if personally if I was in that situation and I pulled out because you know my job situation changed or my family life situation changed it would be uncomfortable for me to have my name out there that and potentially people saying and coming to me and saying can you stay with that you should have submitted your SOI and then having to reveal or feeling pressured to reveal personal information in a way that it might not be comfortable in revealing and so I just wanted to put that out there as a potential. Do we want to have grace and forgiveness and, you know, acceptance that people's situations change, especially when we're doing a two year look back or three year look back, such that they're allowed to change their mind without having their name put out in public that at one point they thought of serving. Thank you Mandy I saw Pat and then Jennifer. Grace and forgiveness. I haven't thought about your, what you're saying and there's some validity to it so but I'm. But years ago before I was involved in town government or Carol was, you know, no interest in town meeting nothing. Carol was friends with Mac Mcnerney who was on the planning board. And he, because she was involved with Community Land Trust for the through the Institute of Community Economics. He really really wanted her to apply for the planning board, and she did. She had an interview and what's interesting, you know that again she submitted whatever you had to submit. And the only reason I, and then Matt came back and he said, Oh, the comment was he said I'm really sorry because I encourage you to do this but the comment was, Oh, what is she got some kind of commie agenda. So she never, and I don't know who said it and I don't care and this was years and years ago, but to me not being able to see who has applied. It triggers that it triggers well, why were they kept off. And so I hear what you're saying about balancing, you know, a person having to explain. Generally speaking, I think I'd only call somebody up and say, Oh, you know, Jennifer, I'm, I really wish you had gone through with that SOI'd love to see you on the committee. And if I know them well what happened, you know, I don't see people all over town calling people but I, as I said, I haven't thought about that. I think there's, there's, I don't know that. I want to know who's because I'm a counselor I find out sort of more than the public. But I don't know so it's just that Jennifer. I think I would err on. First of all, somebody applies I mean they have put their name out there. So they put their name in the, in the public space by completing the calf that they submitted. I personally don't think it's that on, you know, if somebody were to inquire just, you know, I got too busy at work or whatever, anyway, whatever I don't, I don't see being flooded with inquiries as to why when took out, you know, decided not to pursue it, you know, two years maybe after submitting the calf. I just think it's, it's too easy for, it's just, I mean, people that always submit caps and they never get appointed, or they may not get an interview and I think it just seems like it's too much control for someone to have. I mean even on the town manager level, you know, to just say I don't want to interview the, you know, because some people are caught, you know, aren't called for interviews so I just think it should be. And if you don't, if there's some concern about not posting the calf itself, I mean even if there could just be, you know, a list of names of caps received, because it's not confidential when you submit when you apply that you've applied I mean it's right as part of the public process. No, I don't think it is is it I think that it's it's completely anonymous like it's not open to the public at all. So not even the fact that you've applied right. So not to be a happy medium between somebody just being able to look and it just make a decision by themselves. These are the people I want to interview these are the people I don't. Yeah, and I will just just inject one comment Mandy and then just to say that I heard from several members of the community. And then the applications were open for the HRA that applied that either didn't risk, you know, didn't, whatever cuts there are however that process works they didn't get, you know, and we're confused actually about why. Like that's the other piece of this is like what is the feedback loop. So I mean Carol's experience is horrifying. Yeah. And if you don't get a call or if you don't get an interview or if you do get an interview and you don't get selected like what is the feedback process for that you know that that is being offered. And that I think is a concern, especially as we're really talking about representation and diversification and all of that inclusion. I think that yeah I'm leaning on the side of that. But but then again, I feel like the flip side is I if they are public that will be scrutinized people will be looking and saying why did Paul choose these people and not this person and that's just in nature of what will happen I think so. Do we know what other towns tend to do. And even go ahead. So a couple of things and I'll start with Jennifer's questions first. I believe Northampton is totally public I think I know geo was looked at this so it's it's a wide range. In certain some towns they are public in other towns they are not. What I want to say is I think we need to split. And what I've been hearing from Pat Jennifer and Michelle I think relates to more of the manager appointments that the council is then supposed to confirm or not confirm. So I think we need to have a policy surrounding them versus the council appointments and I was speaking in some sense more towards the council appointments, where we have a specific application where we do actually then after the cap is just the start, the end of the day is once someone submits that their name becomes public, even if they withdraw later. That becomes public so we actually do have what it from the council side I would say we might have reached that happy medium. And I won't say we have but but I'll explain, you know, some of what I've been doing and CRC by keeping. I've kept the names except once you get to SOI is the names stay private. Some of the sheets when we're talking about sufficiency of applicant pool. Last spring started with things like here's how many caps we had that had that two year look back this was the number of them these were the numbers that were currently on, say the planning board. I can probably pull up one of these documents if you give me a little time to find it. Here's how many responded to my email asking to submit a new CAF if you were interested. Here's how many did. And so we I started trying to disclose numbers, which might potentially be that happy medium where it says well we started with caps over the last two years of 25. And then per the policy we had to email 22 of them because the other three came in after the bulletin board notice of those 22 we heard from for that said no I'm not interested six that submitted a new CAF and I never heard anything from the other, whatever that would be 12 right. And so that they were interested. These are the numbers that got the net went to the next stage of saying you need to submit an SOI. Right. And that's how many people, and from that number we got three SOIs, even though we had technically 10 applicants at the time we determined the pool was sufficient we got three SOIs. Now you've got the names of the three SOIs. And so I, what I would like to hear is, is that sort of a you could do better the report that then writes when we make a recommendation has the applicant pool demographics of those who submitted SOIs. And we actually started adding into that most recently with I think planning board, the demographics of the current members of the planning board to as a separate sort of line. And so one thing we could add is demographics of that first 20 or something you know or that first pool before the SOIs to get that better feel of where we are overall versus where we were with the SOIs. Now, what are people's thoughts on that as sort of that protection of potential privacy but also opening. Before we talk about the manager I know has refused to do even how many people he interviewed, like he won't even give us that number, let alone how many calves of that whatever he looks back. Right. And so there's, there's that discussion to be had, and the council discussion to be had and I'd love to hear if people think what the council's been doing in terms of disclosing numbers and some of what I've started trying to do to make some of those numbers a little more public without disclosing names is getting closer to potentially that compromise of privacy versus transparency. Thank you Mandy Jennifer. I want to cover with the council committees. Anyone who completes the process gets an interview right. Right so I'm comfortable with that that the issue is on the town manager appointment where there's no transparency. And can someone help me understand so there's a resident, not a resident oversight board but a visit a resident. Advisory committee advisory committee okay and so the resident advisory committee is the interview body for the town appointed committees is that right. Not solely, I believe the manager is normally either the manager or someone that he appoints maybe his assistant or the department head or something, someone from the resident advisory committee, and generally someone from the, who's currently on whatever committee they're interviewing. Right. That's what happens memo he always details who was on the interview committee. Yes, yes. Okay, I know for the committee I was on. I was always and I don't know why I'm blanking on her name. No Connie Krueger was always in the interview representing the resident advisory. Okay, and I think my gauge is now on the I remember being is now on the resident advisory. I know for a hra in particular a separate interview team was put together that was made up of people of color to do that. So, there was a counselor on that. Go ahead Jennifer know but the town manager would have picked the people to be interviewed. Yes. So that person I don't think sees the pool that he picked from. Yeah, I think you're probably right about that. Yeah, yep. You mean did that interview group see the pool, or they just saw the people that came that he chose that right. Yeah, yeah, that's probably true. Well, I want to just answer Mandy, because I think Mandy, so I think we're having two separate discussions here in some ways. And so let's focus on the council side right now because it feels like the town manager appointed committees is a bigger discussion that we have should be addressed right. Definitely 100%. Yeah, we definitely want to address it. So just staying with the council right now. The process is that you fill out the calf just to correct me from you fill out the calf, and then you get and then that goes to all council members who else does it go to at that point. So I think we're going to call Athena Paul, kind of that group. So the calf goes to town council at so whoever's on the town council at email gets a copy of the calf at the time that that's submitted so that means when the council switches over in January of 2024. In the back of two years, the council, the current counselors won't have seen the actual caps for those last two years counselors on the specific committee that does the recommending have access to those calves at least in the CRC SharePoint folder tried to centralize the record keeping so that caps don't get lost and and with spreadsheets and all so that caps don't get lost and record keeping is a little easier for those transfers. But yeah, in theory all the counselors have access to the calves. And then the SOIs that are submitted everyone submitted an SOI gets interviewed, and everyone submitted an SOI their SOI becomes public, and their name becomes public at the SO once they've submitted the SOI. Yeah, I think there's a lot of process feels I'm not seeing any major problems with it, but Me too. Yeah. So Mandy what you were actually wanting to make a so tell me what exactly was and I'm sorry I haven't looked at the memo for a minute but what was the recommendation that you were wanting to make on this. So I didn't have a this was not my referral. Someone else brought this to TOL. I wanted to be part of this conversation because I know I've been in some sense, I guess I would say in the past majority because they are still not public. And I felt like I might have a different view to bring to this committee's discussion. And I don't know if we go to the manager ones, if the manager is not interviewing every person who has submitted a calf within a certain amount of time whether that be after the bulletin board notice or XYZ. Then we've got problems, and I will absolutely admit that. He should be everyone who submits that calf should be able to be interviewed for that position. If he sets a specific timeframe. Yeah, maybe not the past two years but but as Jennifer and them said if we're comfortable with how we've done how to get to that interviews. Maybe we should be trying to figure out how to get the manager to comply with that sort of method somehow. And then his goals. My gosh. I will say that I think, I mean, and this has nothing to do with how I view Paul, but if the caps are public, it will put more pressure on Paul to be real or whoever the town manager is to really have awareness around the presentation and the process and all of that kind of thing, I think I at least it would for me, you know, I mean I would try to look at it, either way that way but I think that it would, it's definitely a public process I think brings more awareness to these things that we're trying to change. And this is truly the institutional structural change that we're trying to achieve here. And so I think that our stated goals of doing that this would very much be aligned with that. Jennifer, I'm going to go to you but I would love Athena do you happen to have the referral on this easily accessible right now I just want to make sure I understand what the actual referral was. I'm curious if the referral was related to whoever brought it forward or where it got referred was was specific to town manager appointed bodies. So, I don't want to interrupt Jennifer because Jennifer is in line so I'll just raise my hand. Jennifer go ahead. Say I think I lost my train of thought that's so far. I'm going to interrupt Athena. All right, all right, Mandy I think oh no I know what I was just going to say it goes without saying that, you know of course it's no reflection on the town man it's just because we have to look at it structurally is always going to be there. Really. And also we're all just like human beings and we do actually like half these biases even if we're really aware, you know, Athena. The referral was to refer to the Geo committee for review and recommendation the matter of the public record status of cast it wasn't specific to town manager or council appointments. That's not it. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay, Mandy. So I went back to two of Paul's recent memos appointment memos, one for recreation commission and one for local historic district commission, and both of them in his summary of process indicate. He quote interviewed all candidates who expressed interest. For historic local historic district, it was a little different because he said he interviewed all candidates who expressed interest in either of the two commissions the historical commission or the local historic district commission. As in this one he said as we discovered many were not clear what the differences between the two commissions were. I can try and find the memo for a hra or something but um, he's stating in his memos that he's interviewed all candidates who have expressed interest. We don't know what that timeframe is number one. And so maybe one of the things we need to have TSO asking, what's the timeframe for all candidates expressing interest, because clearly counselors are hearing that not everyone is getting interviewed. Um, and so more description on that statement might be helpful in our discussions here. So maybe we just need to bring Paul in to discuss what some of those statements mean. I think that this is a place that I'm putzing within my brain. There are assumptions, and there's more or less facts. And I don't know, and maybe some of you do whether there's an assumption that somebody didn't even get a call or an interview, or they got it, and they didn't want to go forward with it. I'm going to bring that up because the only reason we knew Carol didn't get an interview was because Mac told her and he was on the committee. And, and so I think a lot of assumptions are made that aren't necessarily accurate. Yeah, right. Like, we don't, we don't know. I mean, I have, I have at least one person who has told me that they did not, you know, receive an interview. So I, that's all the extent of it. And there could be. But that's important. Yeah, yeah. People who say I submitted it, I for people say I submitted it and then they see that the appointments have been filled and yeah, they didn't even know the interview process happened. Right. Right. I also had an interesting case in that where there was a person who expressed interest that is integral to our community works in our community, but was, but is not a resident any longer of our community. And, and I think the justification for not giving that person the opportunity to interview was that they, and that is in our rules somewhere. I don't know where that is, but that is maybe a separate matter because this person. From my point of view and it's personal sharing would have been really fantastic to be on the committee and so it was disappointing that that being how integral they are to this community that because of their resident status in the community they weren't able to move forward with the process. Yes, Pat. I wonder as a slightly separate part of that whether or not we can think as a council about whether we want to have advisory people who meet the kind of criteria that you're talking about. On the finance committee we have three residents. They are residents, but they're non voting. And if, if this person were people like that wanted to make a commitment to work on a committee. They were interviewed and they were selected to do that by whatever whoever the selection. And then not having a vote might be critical because then you still have the, you know, the, the experience, the information, the creativity of a specific person but I don't know, but committees can get very large. That's in that way so I don't know. I don't know if they're language to be added like residents and emmer stakeholders, you know, if you work in a school or you, you know, anyway, I think Athena's going to tell us we're getting off topic. Yeah, it's a much longer decision because Robin Ruth Simmons would be a great person on our committee but she shouldn't be voting in ours. Yes, I'm not going to tell you that you're off topic I'm going to tell you that the charter says that appointments to multiple member bodies. In that section under the town managers fun the executive function. It says that members of all appointed multiple member bodies shall be residents of the town at the time of appointment. And throughout the term of the appointment unless otherwise approved by the town council I think we encountered this only once before maybe Mandy has a better recollection than I do. And it was a Pelham resident in terms of an appointment, or we were looking at maybe appointing them because they were. My memory is hazy on this but I think we have a local historic district commission has to have an architect and a realtor. They could not find a realtor that lived here. So the realtor lived in Pelham worked in Amherst had grown up in Amherst but they had to make an exception because it couldn't be filled otherwise. Sorry, I was just going to quickly say we might not even know if, you know, if it if it's sort of at the discretion of the town manager I think at that like how would, if somebody came forward to apply for a town manager committee and the town would not bring them in for an interview, because of them being an outside outside of the community. How would the council know that you know what I mean to in order to actually have that discussion per the charter. If that makes any sense Mandy. So Athena and Jennifer right the council's done it at least once and voted to approve a non resident appointment it is part of the charter so we can't change the rule that we'd have to approve that person separately. But maybe it's worth making recommendations to the manager the charter doesn't say anything about any criteria. There are reasons to approve someone who's not a resident, right so it doesn't say like unless prove, you know, has to be a resident unless for extraordinary circumstances you can't find someone right like it doesn't put any limitations on the council's approval of non resident appointments. So maybe it would be, if we find this a problem, we could ask the manager, how many times does he get non residents applying and in what circumstances, and would he like guidance from the council on in what circumstances the council would sort of using the word approve, like to see non residents interviewed and considered in equal quantity in equal qualifications or whatever to residents instead of just immediately just discarded with nope, you're not a resident I won't even interview you like, is there a way, would he like guidance from the council on when the council would be open to that separate approval of non residents. So a question to the manager like that might be helpful to find out, but and also how many non residents do we get. Right, I don't know. And when we get them are they generally employees that you master employees in town or, you know, they might be landowners in the agricultural commission I think had this problem before, where the, the, it's a, it's an owner or a worker on the farm that operates in town, but doesn't live in town lives across the border and Hadley because half the farms and Hadley half of it's an Amherst, you know, things like that. That's great and it sounds like we'll be bringing Paul if he's available on the ninth to talk about town manager goals. So we can put this back on the agenda and maybe ask that he could stay to give us some feedback on this matter as well and so we'll couple those together. Pat, did you have Mandy your hand is still up. You're muted. I just have one more thing I'd like to say I think you know one thing that would be very helpful if we can convince the manager to do is release numbers. You know that's one thing we operate blind with right when we get an appointment memo it just says all candidates were interviewed. We don't know how many that is. We get an appointment for one person we get an appointment for five people depending on how bad the committee is and that it would be helpful to know if his all candidates were interviewed statement was one interview one spot or was it six interviews one spot or six interviews three spots and that doesn't disclose privacy information but it does help with transparency and so maybe we can get some of that demographic information that the Councils disclosing some of the numbers that the Councils disclosing to get Paul to disclose in his appointment memos. It's definitely helpful to know one person applied. Right. And then also that's really important just in terms of engagement like we're consistently only getting three people applying and the same three people applying and those people aren't getting you know something's wrong. So, I want to make sure we approve the minutes, if everyone had an opportunity to review them just pull this up. And Mandy I know you are not here but I think you can still vote on them if or choose. Okay, so I am moving to adopt the October 12 2022 meeting minutes. Okay, great. Any discussion. All right. Jennifer. Yes. Pat. Hi. Mandy. Hi. And I'm an eye. So I, before we are finished I just want to review what we'll be doing then on the ninth and see if there are any other items. It sounds like we will have the water regulations by law, and that will be. Well, so, see, this is, if it's going back to TSO, I'm a little the way this process has worked it's been a little bit confusing to me. We'll have a legal opinion. Maybe that should go to for TSO to take it under TSO. Yeah. Next meeting is what the third Jennifer? Oh, TSO. No, I don't think they're meeting on the third. So are they the 10th? Yes. Yes. No, go with Tina. I think that's what kind of got determined today. I had, I thought when we got the legal review that it would, it was, I didn't realize it was going back to TSO, but it sounds like there's going to be more substantive discussion that needs to happen. So, I think it would be helpful if, if anyone helps. They want to recommend to make that they get shared. With TSO ahead of their professionals. So we can take all of those into consideration. I'm Andy's. So changes. So that would probably be helpful. Before they start that conversation. Great. Okay. So then next. Time we meet, we will have our second discussion of the town manager goals. Hopefully with Paul, we'll come back to the. Caps, hopefully also with Paul. We can do the scoring matrix and the other, there were the other. Rules referrals that I didn't have on this agenda, but that had been on the previous agenda. That we still haven't. I don't think. Did we address? No, I don't think we addressed those last time. So we have all of that. And then are there any other agenda items? I'm, I'm trying to think. Athena, yes, please. Oh, great. Yeah, Athena, just so you know, you're coming in and out. I don't know if it's your new headset or what, but I don't know if it's your new headset. I don't know if it's your new headset. I could at least barely hear you. Sorry about that. This thing kind of slips down. And I forget that it's not there. But I don't notice because it's out of my eyesight. But I was just saying that the sewer regulations are, are all set from TSO. So I'm not sure if you want to take them up at the same time that you do the water and sewer bylaws. We had talked about adopting those, you know, not at the same time and the complication of that. It might be helpful to just do them all at once. Okay, great. We also had a referral. That was going to finance committee first. What was that? Oh my gosh. Wasn't. Anyone remember? It was something recent. I thought that was the water regs that we thought was about, but that we determined finance had answered already. No, there was something else that a counselor brought forward. That was referred to, or counselors brought forward. Wasn't the street light. So street lights are in TSO right now. Okay. Maybe finance transfer fee from Anna and I is in finance. That's the one. Okay. So that, whether it's anywhere else, but finance. But then it would come to us. It's not done finance yet. No. That's going to be a tough one because there's a lot in finance. Okay. All right. We are good. Are there any other, there's no one else in the attendees. So I'm not going to call another public comment. I don't have anything else that wasn't anticipated. Are there any other comments? Member comments. Great meeting. Yeah. Really good. Nice to see you all. And I'm going to adjourn at 1059 AM. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.