 Okay. So we're just about to begin an interview with Larry Hicks. It is November 30th, 2015. We are in St. John's, Newfoundland. And the interviewer will be William McCrae. So we'll just start with a few basic questions. Could you please state your full name? Larry Gordon Hicks. In your age, please. Sixty. And where were you born? In Cormoranbrook, Newfoundland. And as a child, what did your parents do for living? My dad was an accountant at the Paver Mill in Cormoranbrook. And my mom was a housekeeper. What's the correct word there? Yeah, I guess housekeeper. Housemaker, housewife. And what did you do as a child? What were your go-to activities or interests? I played a lot of baseball, a lot of soccer, a lot of downhill skiing, a lot of table tennis. Let's see. A lot of outdoor stuff, primarily. We never had video games back when I grew up. And we only had two channels. So on TV. Lots of sports. Yeah, I was a big skier. I still love downhill. Were you at any point interested in the sciences or maybe exploration or things like that as a child? That's a good question. Surprisingly when I was around 10 years old, I used to always get my dad to bring me over to the library. And one of the things that you always do is take out books on space exploration and atlases. I would take the atlases and take them out for a two-week period and bring them home and trace the maps. So even on the road stage, I showed some interest in outdoor-type things and mapping and whatever. What would you do with those maps at age 10? I just keep them and just basically look at them and look at the place names. Where's the highest mountain and the longest river and this type of stuff. And in school, were you also a fan of the sciences? Well, in grade 10, of course, that's when we would get into the sciences in school through the chemistries and physics and biology and this type of stuff. I did that for grade 10 but in grade 11, which was my last year of high school at that time, instead of I wanted to do geology and geography. So I had to drop subjects. So I dropped chemistry and French. So I could take and do physics, chemistry, geology and geography. So I guess it was telling me somewhere that, hey, you kind of like the sciences or the outdoor-type related activities versus sort of more of the history and languages and this type of stuff. So what did you decide to do after high school? I went to university when I came out of grade 11 in 1972 and I did enrolled in the Amos Do-In-Er Science degree. Did you have any idea what specialization you wanted to get into? Not at that point, no. I kind of felt first I wanted to get into mineral exploration, but then I realized that mineral exploration entailed a lot of being in the bush and maybe gone for long periods of time and towards the end of my fourth year and then when I did my honors thesis, I was kind of thinking maybe I might turn towards petroleum. Okay. Just because there was less of a... Well, the fieldwork component and by then I had gotten married and children were there so you didn't want to be gone in the bush all the time. Okay. So what would you consider to be your first job after your bachelor's? My first job was in 1981 and I took a position as senior field assistant working for a consultant out of Halifax, a guy by the name of John Leslie and he had a project with Essex Minerals doing lead zinc exploration in northern Newfoundland. So I got hired on as the senior field assistant for that project. And what were the kind of tasks you did? Primarily it was mostly soil sampling. I had two juniors assistants working with me and it was mostly soil sampling towards the end of the summer, started to do a bit of field mapping and then right at the very end, the last couple of weeks, we had a drill came in. I took here the drill and lodged some corn and stuff. Okay. And where did you go from there? Maybe tell me a bit about your career. Okay. Well, from there, the following year, the year I was finishing off my honors thesis, one of the professors at Memorial, Dr. Noel James, who I think is now at the University of Kingston, he recommended myself and another girl in my class for a job with Petra Canada in their research lab up in Calgary for the summer as a summer student. So I took that job in the summer of 82 and I returned in the summer of 83 and did basically the same job again and doing primarily sedimentary, petrology, thin section work on the East Coast here, the venture gas field off Nova Scotia and then some of the Ivernia stuff off Newfoundland. And did you ever do any significant work in out West? You mentioned just, you went to Calgary for a year, but? No, all my projects were related to offshore East Coast and after I finished with Petra Canada, actually, I was going to get a permanent job with Petra Canada and right when I was finishing up that summer term, the government put in, the federal government put in a hiring freeze and the job that I was supposed to get never materialized. So I came back home to Newfoundland and I ended up working offshore on the low rigs as a formation evaluation geologist. What would then that kind of geologist do on the rig? Primarily what you're doing there is you had a, I guess, a sample catcher that went out, caught the sample at every five meter interval from the drilling and you would bring that in and you would do the geology on that particular sample. So you'd do a hydrocarbon evaluation plus you'd describe the actual drill cuttings themselves and basically log all that and at the end of the day you'd produce a strip log or a lithology log off the complete well section, you know, as you're drilling, right? On a day-to-day basis. Okay. And then write the final world report for the geology you laid itself. Okay, and that was still with that wasn't that was a company called X log. Okay. And I was with them from fall of 1984 up to the spring of 1987 and we had a fire on the rig. I was on the bow drill three actually. We had a fire. We got evacuated from the rig and when I came in to shore here I said I think I've had enough of this. I mean it's time to look elsewhere for a job. Anybody die on that? No, no, no, no. They had to evacuate all the non-essential personnel so I was one of the ones just being in all the service company. Okay. You're one of the first to go. So, but when I came back in then to back home to Cornerbrook, Hope Brook had just told them to gold mine in southwestern Newfoundland. So I contacted the company that had found that BP minerals to see if there was any jobs there and they said there was no jobs on the on the on the mine site itself but our exploration department may have some work. So I contacted their exploration department and the guy Dr. Jeff Thurlall he had said that there was no work at the moment but he said you know we do require people that can draft maps for us so would you be interested in even doing some part-time work and I said sure why not and so I took the initiative and to actually do a page of drafting off the 100 meter section of lethargy log like I was doing offshore and I brought that into him on a on a Monday morning because I had been speaking to him on Friday so I brought that in for him on Monday and I said Jeff you're talked about drafting I said here's a sample of what I can do and he was you know impressed with that and two days later one of his senior field assistants quit and we had just come in and seen him I had shown that initiative to bring in that drafting he followed me and he said Larry I got a job for you if you want it. So I started then with BP minerals for that summer and I went back on the rigs in the winter and I worked with BP the following summer back on the rigs that winter back with BP the following summer and then the college in Stephenville College of North Atlantic for looking for someone to teach the geology as a replacement position for one of the instructors who won the leave absence and anyway I got the job doing that and that turned into then 11 years at college from teaching geology with the mineral technology program which was a two-year program and teaching then two years all the high school science curriculum with the adult basic education program and then we did a year of special projects doing scripts for videos for the adult basic education program on geology and then we did a project with a Nova multimedia which was a local Stephenville multimedia company to produce the CD rocks and minerals for the adult basic education program as well so it's sort of like the subject matter expert for that particular CD and then when I finished off that the guy that was teaching geology in the petroleum technology program in St. John's wanted to go on a year of leave leave absence so they asked me could I come out the St. John's and teach the geology for that particular year and I said sure why not and I came out and it was petroleum so it was a little bit different than minerals and but you had you basically were specialized in that well I had the offshore experience plus the two summers with Petra can in their research lab so I had a bit of a petroleum background anyway and I wasn't you know up on wireline logging interpretation but I learned that as I was going and so I did that for the one year and when that job was ending the government the ad had come in the paper for the government looking for a senior petroleum gel this for Newfoundland and I put in the application I got an interview and they quizzed me for an hour and a half and funny enough all the questions they asked me were what I had just taught all the students so I kind of almost I guess lucked into not luck into the job but you know right time yeah so anyway and I'm still there I started as the senior petroleum geologist and six or seven years ago that position switched to manager petroleum geoscience geology for the government and if you were if you were able to describe the job you do the responsibilities right now what what exactly does that entail well I I guess in my role our primary responsibility of course we are the regulator for the onshore oil exploration in Western Newfoundland so we have really very little to do with the offshore you know the Iberney and Terranova and off the offshore area we regulate the onshore so we oversee everything that happens out there any drilling that's taking place we do review the adw's that the companies would pass in to do the drilling and we make sure there's no gaps or emissions within these submissions we look at it from the safety aspect to make sure that everything is up the spec and all the rig inspections are done this type of thing we look at the the geology when the drilling is done and the reports come in to us on a daily basis we have a part of playing that just right do you go out in the field when you inspect all these things does someone have to our the guys that work in our engineering department they would go out and do some of the rig rig stuff and the and when they're doing the testing and stuff for like the cement testing or the blow-up preventer testing and this kind of stuff when you do all the pressure ops they go out and make sure they they witness this and everything is good so it's not really much to go out and see from a geology point of view unless they're probably running some core or something you might go out and just look at the the core are there are there any major projects worth mentioning that that have come through that you've seen come through the office as a working in the department of natural resources I'm not sure you'd call this a project or not but back in 19 when did this start in 2005 out in Western Newfoundland the local border trade out there they wanted to put together a trade show on oil and gas for Western Newfoundland so they struck up a committee and they had a technical committee and as part of that technical committee I was on that and one of the things we decided to do as part of the trade show we would have a one-day geology field trip and so it sort of fell to us I guess in the department to actually write the field trip guidebook and to lead that field trip and we've done that now for they've had the 10 of these symposiums so we've done that for 10 years and that becomes a major project it's a month's work so you know whether it's not within the realm of what you're referring to there I'm not sure but it is something that is not part of like was written in the job description when we took the job but it's just something that you know that came into the job after after we got going there how many people are part of these field trips generally it depends on the envelope on the number of attendees in the conference per year so some years we've had as low as probably 70 or 80 and upwards to 150 and of course we take a big coach bus so the maximum seating capacity is probably 50 people okay one of those buses and there's been years where it's been filled and there's been years we've had 20 people okay so it varies depending on the state the industry anywhere to usually head out it depends it's a one-day field trip so we have to go somewhere like it's a 10-hour field trip leaving 8 in the morning getting back 6 6 30 and so generally we try not to go more than probably two hours dry from the city of Cornwall itself okay so that can get us out to say Port of Port Peninsula to the south and maybe as far as Parsons Pond Daniels Harbour to the north of the northern peninsula so there's a lot of I mean obviously there's a lot of offshore drilling on the east coast there's also been talk of maybe potential in the west coast of Newfoundland can you elaborate a bit on that yes well basically drilling drilling starter historically we think drilling started in Western Newfoundland in 1867 that's the first record of a well that we have which is only what eight years behind Colonel Drake's well in Titusville in the US and that was in 1850 on and of course James Miller Williams in 1858 at the oil springs in Ontario but so we think the first well was 1867 but the first modern well was drilled and when I say modern I mean a well that was drilled with the benefit of the seismic was drilled in Western Newfoundland in 1994 and finished in 1995 and that was by Haunt Pan Canadian of course they made that discovery at Garden Hill there at the Port of Port Peninsula and since then there's been probably 40 wells that have been drilled and some of those have probably not got past overburden and some have not reached their targets and but most have and a lot of those have had some oil and gas shells and stuff but only one discovery to date and that set the Garden Hill well so I got off track from the original question that you asked there well about just about no kind of about West Coast drilling or Newfoundland West Coast drilling and if that is because I mean there's a big success in the East and we all know that and there has been for yes for decades and decades now but if is that something that you foresee for the near future perhaps because you do say there is there evidence of oil there yes there's there's there's numerous oil seeps in Western Newfoundland in there's three sedimentary basins there the Anacoste the Basin George and Geo like basins and one is Cambridge in Ordovician in age the Anacoste and the other two are Carboniferous in age three of them have bonafide petroleum systems we know you know there's those seeps and shells throughout all those basins since 1994 as I said earlier there's been probably around 40 wells and that's that's probably in the range of 20 odd that are that are actually exploratory wells and then there's a number of strat test holes and this type of stuff but there have been there have been good shows in some of those wells and at the present moment we we've had I guess a lot of the major players to pull out of Western Newfoundland and we had a company called Black Spruce Exploration that came in probably three years ago now and they either made option agreements or the outright brought out the leases of the companies that we're operating in Western Newfoundland so this company Black Spruce Exploration has most of the permits that currently exist except for in the Basin George Basin and those permits are held by Invest-Can Canada Limited and Black Spruce is hoping to drill a well within the next this is late November so hopefully the spotter well within the next few weeks actually and do you have any idea why the many of the major companies backed off from that area? Western Newfoundland is for the most part it's it's a hard place to do exploration just because of the climate and it's because of the climate and not only that but there's no there's no you know equipment base here in Western in Newfoundland really for onshore type drilling so all the all the equipment for the most part has to come from Alberta and it's very expensive to get it so either Alberta or the Eastern US okay so you can just bring in rigs usually it's a one-off they come in on trucks and they leave the province again so it's not like the offshore you got a semi or whatever proctor they're in one of the bays until they're ready to you know move it out on site yeah so and getting back to your your days as a teaching what just curious were there any standout classes or subjects that you taught that you really enjoyed or thought you know made made a big impact subjects that I enjoyed I enjoyed them all because they're all primarily geology related I really enjoyed I guess you know most the ones I like the most were the field related once the geochemical exploration methods geophysical exploration methods because we would get out and what we would do myself and the other instructor who taught a mining related course we we put our labs our three-hour lab such that he had them the students in the morning I have them in the afternoon or vice versa and what we would do then was be able to run a full-day field trip with the students and take them out and and this was great from September say till the mid-October we could get them out you know for a full day and then in when the snow fell then the mining the guy would take them for the full day and be in mining related labs so it was great for the I like that you get them out and actually do something yeah you know you could drive for an hour and still work for four to five hours and then come back whereas if you have a three-hour lab slot you can't really do much and that's really that's often quite those kinds of activities is really what gets the students to love a subject quite often that's what they'll remember I remember the head of the department my my first year I came there he was looking at the window one day from his office and the bus was parked in front of the building and I was on my way up to get aboard the bus he called me and he said Larry said I don't know what you're doing with those students he said but I have never in all my years here seen the bus parked in front of the building students ready to go on a field trip and they're sitting in the bus 15 minutes before they're ready to go I said they must be doing something they like out there and I said yeah we're having we're having a good time you know they enjoy it right yeah so I guess if you go at it from the approach that you know you get them excited about it and you know they will enjoy it and they'll want to go do it yeah and have you have had a lot of students go into those fields we've had from the mineral tech program which was a two-year program there's been at least two or three of those students that went on and did finish the geology degrees at one and then went on did master's degrees as well so I was quite pleased with that I'm working with students younger generations as well but but but also I mean from having worked in very different fields of work you might have an interesting take on this question but do you believe there's a disconnect between the general public and the natural resource industry in Canada and if so why well I guess the start off I think yes there is a disconnect and the reasons why I guess they're very varied but I think a lot of them goes back to the educational component and most of the general public just don't realize they just don't have enough basis in geology and earth science and this kind of thing to really understand the connection between rocks which are for most people pretty boring and you know your your digital camera here or your cell phone and or your makeup that you put on your face and if you can make that connection and make people realize that hey but wasn't for petroleum or but wasn't for mineral exploration you would not have any of this and you might be able to then get them more or less to to get away from this not my backyard yeah mindset because that's that's basically what it is I've listened to the to the fracking debate in Western Newfoundland and you know for the most part you know I have to remain neutral I'm the regulator for the government I can't say I'm for fracking or against fracking I have to be totally neutral but you know you go or you you listen to the two comes out of the meetings and the questions and this kind of stuff and it's and it's quite obvious that that there's a lot of fear out there which I can see why there would be you're talking about an unknown and people still don't know you know the end result of fracking so you can say yeah it's not it's not dangerous but we don't know what it's going to be like 20 years now or 30 years now and maybe these fractures would start returning or whatever or working their way through faults and fractures we really don't know and but but most of the people that go to these meetings and they just outright know no fracking and you know we don't want oil exploration but they you know in the meantime they're around their cell phones and everything else and they just don't I guess appreciate you know that hey you know it wasn't for minerals or oil I would not have this cell phone and so to me the arguments just boils down to it they just don't want to end their your backyard because if not there would be an awful hypocritical and you know just to say that we're against mining or against petroleum or petroleum exploration so I don't know so do you think good question yeah question at all yeah I often ask that one and and yeah I get different I get different answers do you think it's so do you think it's something that should be pressed more early on at school in schools or do you think it's also the industry doesn't necessarily do a good enough job to convey it to the public yes yes and with a caveat I think I think there certainly needs to be a much larger educational component built into the you know complete system I do know just want to pull one out from my past here back when we were teaching the mineral technology program we've done a little program to two things really we did a little program where we brought in high school students from all over the province and we gave them a five-day geology filter the field camp in Stephenville and as part of that we taught them the basics for geology and rock mineral identification then we took them on a three-day hike up into the highest point Newfoundland the top of the Lewis Hills and we did some botany stuff with them with the rare plants and then pointed the geology it's an ophiolite sequence so it's part of the Euras mantle and oceanic cross so we you know we had a great little field trip there and they had a much greater appreciation of geology when they had done that particular field trip and this was for high school students and another project we did was we did a one week field trip and this was in conjunction with the federal government by the way a one week field trip where we took teachers on a geology field trip right across the province and so then they could take that information and bring it back to their students and you know bring that to their classrooms and that seemed to work out quite well as well for the 12 teachers that actually did that particular program and it's something that I think the government federal government should maybe invest in a little bit more you know because I went through that one I know I know it worked yeah and I know the teachers really really appreciate it being able to get the exposure for this for sure especially if you look at the natural resources I think count for 10% of the Canadian economy yes so in a way it is a good thing for the federal for the federal government to educate them really on not just you know how things work in the natural resource world and how you know a cell phone comes to exist for a camera but also the jobs and the opportunities that can be involved in the natural resources for for a student you catch a child at an age of anywhere from six to probably 11 years of age and you introduce them to rocks and minerals and really get them you know interested they'll retain that for the rest of their lives and they'll sort of always have that little appreciation and understanding of you know mining and minerals and petroleum I know where I live in St. John's here I'm a little cul-de-sac and there's two or three families here that have children in that age range and I always make up these little little 18 compartment rock and mineral kits for them right and I did one for my neighbor there two years ago and I brought it over at Christmas Eve because I was going to bring their parents over a bottle of wine anyway and I made the little mineral kits and their mother told me after she said both their children of all the Christmas gifts they got for Christmas when they went back to school in January that was the thing when they had show-and-tell what they got for Christmas that was the thing they bought was those rock and mineral kits and and not only that family but the other one on the other side of me as well same thing that's what they brought the school so that told me right there that you know they have kids have an interest in rocks and minerals and I know when we taught the mineral tech we always went to the schools and did the educational component and went to the malls on Education Week and this kind of stuff and there was always at the rock and mineral the mineral tech table that was always the most interest from little kids right up to you know 80 year olds and they love it and they you know so you you I think I think there needs to be more of an educational awareness right there for the natural resources and I think you know we'll pay big dividends down the road so thanks on a different topic now I always like to ask this question as well and also might defer from the different sectors you worked in but how present or absent were women throughout your career and that might have changed as well okay well I guess let's start in university when I went through university there was in my graduating class of 20 odd people there was three females and I know now my son just graduated there a few years back with a geology degree and over half his class were females so in that 30 year frame timeframe always 20 female 20 women out of how many you were in my class there was probably I think in my graduating class there might have been around 26 people and some are like 24 25 26 and it was three that graduated and my son's great graduating class was probably 20 odd I'm not sure the number but over he did tell me it's a dead over half my class or female so it certainly changed over that period of time working in the bush very seldom that I see females in the bush back when I did my bush work in probably the 80s and the 90s offshore I can remember on all the rigs I was on at no point that I ever see more than three or four women on a read back has that changed yes that's changed as well because my co-worker now at the department she worked offshore as well and she said there's you know fear number not a lot now but you know so probably 10 or 15 on some of the rigs versus back when I was there yeah three so three and now like natural resources over half our staff probably are female so it was certainly changed yeah so it's good actually yeah so there's a lot of you know what these women in resources programs and this kind of thing that are really changing changing mindsets out there yeah the good things there's a you see different kind of branches to natural resource I guess interests that women are pushing especially like the environmental sciences and sustainability for mining all the style which is often pushed by women now or even the biosciences too yeah this may seem like a mouthful of a question but no wrong answer it's really an opinion question but in your in your opinion are there any people events inventions disasters I mean we have we have a very famous one close to most newfound landers which was the ocean ranger for example but anything whatsoever that you deem must be mentioned when talking about the natural resource history of our country so it could be anything could be a discovery could be a disaster like I said it could be a person could be an invention something that you know resonates with you or you think changed the natural resources or a section of the natural resources well from from disasters I guess the obvious one is the ocean ranger it certainly changed a lot of what took place here in Newfoundland especially from a safety point of view there were very you know not not very few but the safety climate was a lot different you know pre-ocean ranger than what what it was after and that's sort of the ocean ranger disaster set the stage for the current safety standards that we had today so it was never good to say no I know I want to watch myself yeah so the ocean ranger for sure from a discovery point of view obviously I burn you was you know the game changer for Newfoundland Labrador and as we've gone forward in time now we've had Terra Nova and White Rose and Ebron the new discoveries now in the Flemish Pass and then the new the new studies done by the the bicep Fran Lab and this group showing that you know say just the Flemish Pass itself possibly could contain up to 12 billion barrels of recovered oil and you know 130 or 113 TCF of natural gas in just 2% off our offshore 102% actually so if that's any indication of maybe the endowment that's out there I mean I think Newfoundland Labrador has certainly a great great future down the road and yeah so discoveries voices Bay would be another another discovery there that was that's probably gonna be a game changer for Labrador and likewise prior to that the iron discoveries in the western Labrador okay you know you've had a lot of sort of smaller discoveries place like Buckins but you know Buckins itself for a VMS type deposit is world-class and you know can't get around that one so yeah thanks we'll just finish off with a few questions here this one we can split in half if you'd like but what are you proudest of in life and we can say in life and also professionally career-wise well in life I have a you know absolutely darling for wife so start right there yeah I have two two beautiful children I have a daughter that's a pharmacist that are doctorate in pharmacy and I have a son who just completed his master's in geology and I have a little granddaughter so and a son-in-law so I can't forget him so no families for sure very very proud of my family and for work related accomplishments I guess probably the one that I'm I'm probably the most proud off is back in 1991 the Newfoundland government asked us at the college at the time I was teaching the geology and in the tech program would be be interested in putting together a two week prospectors training course for the province so we spent you know from January right up to May putting together that particular course in our spare time and we ran the first course in May and off that year 1991 and I was lucky enough that myself and the other instructor that helped me when news Len helped teach the course for the first nine years and then the mineral technology program unfortunately died and we got laid off from the college and Len went on his way and I went with out to St. John's doing the petroleum tech for a year and then I went with government but I was lucky enough that the prospectors course kept on going every year and I kept getting asked would I come back and teach the course for two weeks so I was lucky enough that I was able to teach that course for 24 years straight so I really you know I I I put together the course and myself and Leonard and I was able to teach it for the 24 years straight that was sort of a work-related thing I think that's the thing I'm most most proud of in my career so yeah and last question if you were to speak and I mean you have a lot of experience with that with the younger folks the students so if you were to speak to someone much younger like a student what would be the one piece of advice or life lesson you would you would want to give them regarding their futures their careers I gave some advice to some day actually I don't remember what that was I think I think it was if you have the chance to to go and show someone what you can do without without being you know in your face type you know showing them what you can do take take advantage of any opportunity like that and I'll revert back to the time when I did that sheet of drafting you know so you've got an opportunity I know one of my students at Mineral Tech one time the department we're looking for a young fella to help in the in the core lab in Pasadena so it was a bit physical moving boxes of coal on this kind of thing but they need the student for the summer and so the guy at the department had phoned myself the instructor in Mineral Tech said who do you recommend so I gave him a number of names and one of those students happened to be in St. John's for the spring break and he went into the department and looked up the guy that was looking for the student and he's told him who he was and he said you know I'm interested in the job for the summer I just thought I'd come in and you know make contact and you know meet you and put a name to the face of this kind of thing and anyway he got the job and the guy from the department told me after he said yeah I said I looked at all the resumes some were really really impressive but he said the guy that stood out he said was the guy that took the initiative to come in and see me and make that you know face to face contact he said I really thought that was pretty cool he said I appreciated it and he said I gave him the job so sometimes you know just by doing some these little things it can it can't help you and it can't help your forward your career quite a bit because you never know you know what how people think yeah you know so we later it can give you a job it could give you a job and and that job by me doing that with that that's drafting far as I'm concerned that job then it led me to the job with BP minerals to do the mineral exploration and that gave me the experience to get the job teaching the geology with the mineral technology program because I never had any educational background courses and of course then that led me then indirectly to gain the petroleum job because I was in the college system and and teaching the petroleum when they were looking for the petroleum geologist yeah so so you never know you know what yeah for sure you know be a go-getter yeah just you know but don't don't be you know to push yeah push it for sure that that will turn people off as well right but if you sort of can strike that balance and you know if you can put your put your name out there any way you can you don't go for it absolutely right even little things like I remember once again with the mineral tech the students would come out for the CIM conference here in St. John's and the university students would be here and when they would have their little little get-togethers I guess after the public lecture talk up here in the suites the memorial students would generally have their resumes on paper and I said to my students I said listen I said those resumes you know people are talking they'll lay those down on the table and I said that's where they're gonna stay and that's where they'll be tomorrow morning I said you're better off I said taking making up a business card put your name on it student you know the mineral technology Steveville I said make a little resume on the back of the the card it does not have to be detailed I said those cards will go into whoever you're talking to they'll go into his pocket so the next morning you know add too many of those you know you'll still have those cards whereas the resume is still gonna be on the table in the room up in the suite in the in the hotel and it's it's probably less of a setting where you want to you know be in your face a full resume right but something with the just on the card thanks forget about it remember it the next day yeah yeah so that you know those little little things that you need to do you know sometimes well thank you welcome is there anything else you'd like to add no I'm good you know I just really overwhelmed so well thanks for the time well thank you