 APC chief tain's clashwyd gofynol autumn over calls for state of emergency in Benway. And as the world marked International Day of Victims of Enforced Disappearances, Nigeria accounts for about 24,000 missing persons in Africa. Or this is cross-politics and I am Mary Annicole. Influential members of the Benway State chapter of the All-Progressive Congress APC have weighed in on the security situation in the state and have asked Mr President to immediately take steps to declare a state of emergency. Meanwhile, elder statesman Wante Paul Unongol has cautioned those castigating Governor Samuel Autumn of Benway State for speaking out against the Hurtman attacks in his state and the worsening and security in the country to refrain from their actions. For joining us to discuss this and more is the attorney general of Benway State Michael Gousa. Thank you very much for joining us sir. Good evening, thank you for having me. Well here we are again still talking about the ongoing crisis in your state and there has been seemingly a war of wards between your governor and Mr President's aides, not necessarily the President, and there seems to be a back and forth. And now the APC in your state have joined in the war of wards. But let me just name a couple of them. Akume, Ebute, Gamade and several other members of the APC have called for a state of emergency in your state. Now you're a legal person so you'd be able to help me out. Following the recent happenings in the state, why do you think that these calls for a state of emergency shouldn't be because they seem to think that this is what they need for the insecurity in your state to happen. To be abated rather. Thank you very much for having me and like I said before I want to say that His Excellency Samuel Ortum who is the governor of Benway State is not the governor of APC, is not the governor of PDP or any political party. His Excellency Governor Samuel Ortum is the governor of Benway State and we are all aware of the security challenges that we have been facing here in Benway State and so many other states in Nigeria. And so here is the situation where you have a state that has about 6 million population and then about 1.5 million of this, after this population is in ADP camps because of the series of attacks by the heirs men who have launched this war against the people of Benway State. Come to Benway State, I want to tell you that after the 23 states and local governments that you have in Benway State more than 19 local governments have been occupied as I talk to you by these heirs men, by these militia, by these foreign heirs men. And so the governor is doing his best to bring peace in Benway State and anything anybody from Benway State can do is to encourage him, is to support him. This is because the governor has not drawn a battle line with the presidency. The governor is somebody that knows the law. The governor is somebody that respects due process and rule of law. The governor is somebody that is very humble. And so trying to change the narratives by calling for the presidency to decline state of emergency in Benway State is doing politics with the security challenges that the state is facing, is doing politics with what security challenges that the entire country is facing and this is not just in Benway State. You hear and you see these killings every day in Niger State, in Plateau State, in Casino State, in Zamfara State and all over the country. So it is not just in Benway State. And then for anybody from Benway State to call himself members of a political party and then call on the presidency to come and declare state of emergency in Benway State. I think it's most unfortunate. I'm curious because these people who have called for a state of emergency are people who are from your state. Now what I do not know and you're going to help me with that is do those people live in your state? These APC members in your state, I'm talking about Senator Gimade, I'm talking about Akume. If these people do live in the state, maybe they see this particular insecurity from a different prism and hence the reason why they're asking for a state of emergency. And again, I'm asking do you not think it's necessary because the governor has painted a picture as to how bad the situation is? So will the state of emergency not help the situation or is it like you said just a political way of addressing the issue because you have also said, sir, that your governor is trying to bring peace to the state. But if there is much more insecurity in your state then peace cannot really reign, can it? Well, that is why his excellency will continue to raise these security issues with the presidency. It is not just in Benway State, but you know that what the governor who has immunity can say to the president myself and any other person cannot say it because his excellency, the governor, is governing Benway State. And you know that Benway State is one of the federative units in Nigeria project. And so his superintendent Benway State, he is supposed to be the eyes of the presidency. And so if there's anything that is happening here in Benway State, his excellency, who is also the chief security officer of the state, is in a better position to inform the presidency. And all the issues that he has been raising are concerning security. And for anybody to say that the governor is insulting the president, the governor is doing this, the governor has done this, let the president come out and establish what he has said. I want to tell you that his excellency has always told those of us who are working with him and the entire people of Benway State that he has tremendous respect for the presidency. And these are the issues that this group of people are calling for, state of emergency in Benway State. And these things are only happening in Benway State here. The security challenges are all over the place. Look at what has happened in the north east over a period of time. But here in Benway State, his excellency is doing his best to see to either the citizens of Benway State are living in peace. And that is why the issue of the law that for this open grazing came about. This is because he was looking for a situation whereby he would create an enabling environment for both the headers and the farmers in Benway State to live together. That doesn't seem to be working, is it? I mean you always make reference to that. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not in any way trying to query if you know the governor did the right thing or not. But I'm saying if you have tried something and it hasn't necessarily worked, shouldn't other options be explored again? And that's why I ask that question that these people who are asking for a state of emergency, could they be seeing something else that your government isn't seeing? The option cannot be that of declaration of state of emergency in Benway State because the entire country is facing the security challenges. And I think what the presidency can do is to change the security architecture in the whole country, not just in Benway State. They are not coming out to call on the presidency to declare state of emergency in Benway State. By this group of people who are not even resident in Benway State, they did that press conference in Abuja. Let them come back home and be in touch with the people. Let them come back home and see what the governor is doing. Let them come back home and see what is happening in Benway State, not for them to stay in Abuja and do a press conference. Here in Benway State, the stakeholders have come together and they have given their support to the efforts that the governor is doing. And that is why the governor is crying on a daily basis that the presidency should also do more to complement what he is doing here in Benway State. Mr Gwso, I have spoken with several security experts on the same issue in Benway State. And they are saying that the responsibility of dealing with crime, criminality and security in states lies solely on the shoulders of the governor of the states. And we also know that your governor has continuously called on Mr President to wade into the matter. But if your governor's responsibility is to douse the problem and you've said he's tried to bring peace with the anti-grazing bill and all of that. Like I said, if all of those things he has tried isn't working, shouldn't he be trying other options? Especially if he has the power as the chief security officer of the state. Why should the president be doing his job for him? Well, I think the issue of saying the governor is the chief security of the state is even in court because he is not the commander in chief. He doesn't have control over the police. He does not have control over the military. He doesn't have control over the security agents. Does he have to have control over them for them to be able to do security operatives operate within that sovereign state, which is Benway State? Their duty of course, the reason why they are dispatched to that state is to handle the security apparatus in that state. Whether the governor has powers over them or not is the responsibility not to work or partner with the government of the day to deal with insecurity. Why does the governor need any form of power over the security apparatus for them to work? Well, that is why I say the governor, as far as Benway State is concerned, is doing his best to ensure that there is peace in Benway State. And he is working harmony with all the security agencies in the state. But like I said, being a governor and being called the security chief of the state does not make you the commander in chief of the armed forces. And so wherever he has some difficulties or wherever he has his own limitations, I think nothing stops him from calling upon the presidency to intervene or to assist, maybe by sending more troops to the state, because these IDPs who are in camp cannot remain in these camps. These people are entitled to go back to their ancestral homes and continue with their family activities. And if these people will continue to live in IDP camps, I don't think that is what the governor came to do. He is here not to suppritend over dead bodies, he is here not to suppritend over IDP camps, but he is here to ensure that there is peace in the state. And that is where any time there are these problems, there are these challenges, there are these issues, he will always call upon the presidency because he is looking up to the president who is the commander in chief of the armed forces in Nigeria. Now these same highly placed members of the APC had choice words for the governor, but something that jumped out for everyone is the fact that they were asking that the president stops verbally abusing or attacking Mr. President. And then they've also said that the governor is on his own in terms of attacking the president that he's on his own. What do you specifically think they meant by that when they said the governor is now on his own? Plus, why has your principal resorted to verbal attacks if there be any? Has he exhausted all normal avenues to get Mr. President's attention? Well, I don't think there's any attack that is coming from his excellency, the governor of Benwell State, against the presidency. I know as a fact that his excellency, apart from raising these alarms, he has also written series of letters to the presidency alerting the presidency on security challenges in the state. These people, these group of persons who now did that press conference yesterday are only, just like I said before, they are only inciting the presidency against the governor of Benwell State. And I want to say, because I know as a fact that the governor cannot insult the president. He has never insulted the president. Racing this alarm does not, you know, become in sauce against the presidency. They are only trying to say, oh, they are only trying to draw a line between the presidency and the governor. And I know that the governor knows more than that. He can never, he will not insult the president. He has never insulted the president. My question again to this is these members of the APC, of course, like you said, the governor is not the governor of just one political party. It's the governor of Benwell State. How have members of the opposition helped in dealing with this issue? Has there been a handshake across the table in dealing with this issue? Because all and sundry have to be affected, whether they are, I mean, when the bandits come, they do not ask what political party you belong to. So, I mean, it could affect anybody, whether they be friends and family members of those who are in the different political parties. So, has there been some form of synergy, a handshake across the table, coming together of all political leaders and representatives in the state to dialogue on how to deal with this issue? Has there been any such thing? Well, it is unfortunate that somebody who was stood times the governor of Benwell State, somebody who was a senator who was elected by these good people for three times to represent him in the Senate, who now want to destroy the democracy that gave him those opportunities. These are the same people that voted for him, and these are the same people that are languishing in IDP camps now. He has never for once taken his time to visit the IDP camps to see what these people are going through. And then for him to lead others to go to Abujaq and then do a press conference calling on the presidency to come and declare state of emergency in Benwell State. I think it's most unfortunate. But you haven't answered my question. Has there been a reach out from your government to those in the opposition, which might be a very difficult thing to do, but then when you're dealing with security, shouldn't that be the case? It is very open. Even yesterday we had state stakeholders meeting here in Benwell State. And the invitation was extended to all the political parties, the traditional blasts, all the stakeholders in the state here. And then they chose to stay away from the stakeholders meeting that was ahead to extract the issues, to extract the problems that Benwell people are facing. They chose to go and have the, not even once, not even twice, not even twice. You know, he is somebody who is operating an open door policy. And then his government is open to all. That is why I started by saying that his Excellency Governor Tom is not governor of PDPO, governor of APCO, any other political party. He is the governor of Benwell State. And he keeps challenging Benwell indigenous that if anybody has any superior argument or any issue that can add value to what is doing in Benwell State, that should be brought on the table so that it will be discussed and agreed upon. Okay. Now, let's talk about the job of Mr President in dealing with this issue because I've seen your governor's call on the presidency many times. We all know that the president is a commander in chief of the armed forces. We also know that when it comes to security formations and chiefs across states, the box stops at Mr President's table because he commands these service chiefs. But why do you think that the presidency seems to be very mute on this issue of Benwell? Or is it that the presidency is doing what it can to deal with the situation, but then maybe your governor doesn't see it as a good enough move by the presidency? What exactly is the challenge? I really cannot say, but like I've been saying, his Excellency is the governor of Benwell State and he's in charge as far as Benwell State is concerned. And if there are issues that are beyond him, he can always call on the presidency. He can always inform the presidency. He can always alert the presidency. Look at the issues that I'm facing here in my own state. If there's anything that can be done to assist, if there's anything that can be done to complement what the governor is doing, I think that is what should be done. So what exactly does the governor, Governor Autumn, want the president to do in the case of Benwell? For example, I'm the president now and I'm listening to you, and you have finally gotten my attention. What do you want? For instance, if the number of security men that have been deployed to Benwell State are overstretched, it is for the presidency to also direct that there should be more security men that should be sent to Benwell State to complement what the troops that were already deployed are doing in the state. I think that is what the governor is saying. He's saying that these killings are too many. And so these security men who are working here with me are overstretched. And so there is need to do more. I think this is just what the governor is saying. And then for anybody to go out and say. Isn't that supposed to be directed to the chief of army staff? Is that not supposed to be his attention, should that not be drawn to his attention instead of Mr President? The president is not in charge of dispatching men and personnel of the army to Benwell State. Should that not be the chief of army staff's duty? Are we not assigning roles that are not supposed to be that of Mr President to the president? The president because he's the commander in chief. So the president can direct. I still don't get it. If I am the IGP and you're saying you're complaining that there are not enough men in my state. Should that complaint not be directed at me instead of Mr President? I'm the one who gives the orders for these men to be dispatched. It's not the president's job. And I'm not in any way trying to hold brief for the president. I'm not a spokesperson of the president, but I'm just trying to make sense of it all. Shouldn't this be channeled to the authorities that are in charge of these men? And then if that, if nothing is done and then they direct you to Mr President, then you now go to the president with this particular complaint. That is what I've said before that when this crisis, when this killings and when these problems started, a series of letters were written by His Excellency, the governor to the presidency. He wrote these letters to DGSS. He wrote these letters to Inspector General of Police. He wrote it to the chief of army staff. All this why nothing happened. But I want to say that this is what even led to the deployment of Operation Warstroke here in Benway State. But what I'm saying is that they are doing their best. But you discover that these problems are still on. Just like in any other state, not just in Benway State yet. You are aware of the killings in other states. And so the governor is saying that when you have sent your security men here who are working with me, we are collaborating with them, we are working together, but they are overstretched. So can we have more of these security men so that they can complement what these ones that are already on ground are doing in Benway State? That is just what the governor is saying. You know how they say that, again, I'm not speaking for the presidency, how you can have local solutions for local problems. You talked about stakeholder meetings that you have had, your government has had with stakeholders in the state. I want to believe that you have security experts working with the presidency and the chief security protocol officers in your state would come up with ideas. But there always is a genesis to problems. For example, in Zamfara, they have a local problem that escalated to what we have today. And I'm guessing that in Benway there has to be a teething problem that needs to be fixed locally that might reduce this situation one way or the other. Why not win the war but could at least give you some form of respite? Well, like in Benway State here, when his excellency came in 2050, he discovered that the problems were between the headers and the croff farmers in the state. That is what gave rise to the law forbidding open grazing because the consensus was that it is because there is no restriction of movement by this livestock who are destroying crops in the farm that gave rise to the series of killings in the state. He now sends these proposals but will execute to be to the Benway State House of Assembly who now conducted public hearing and eventually signed his intent to this into a law. Even when this law was passed by the Benway State House of Assembly and centred to by his excellency, like I said, he still gave a window period of about six months for people of Benway State to adopt to the provisions of this law. And we are looking at it as a recipe, we are looking at it as a panacea for peace in the state here. The headers insisted that they would not respect the law. They insisted that this law should not be implemented in the state here. And that is why they came out to say that if that law is not abolished, if that law is not reviewed, they will continue to kill the people of Benway State. Has this law been enforced? Because if there is some form of enforcement, then these people who are saying that they will continue to kill would be apprehended. But is there some form of enforcement? Because if you are caught openly grazing then there has to be penalties. If there is not open grazing, you will not have more and more people migrating into farms or causing trouble. So really, again, the bulk is at the table of your governor and the security in your state, the security of operatives in your state. How well have you been able to enforce this law on open grazing? Again, I hear according to the people who had a press conference yesterday, members of the APC, that your governor needs to be probed by the EFCC. And they're asking that certain amounts of monies be accounted for. Is that the other bone of contention? Because this seems more political to me than the issue that's at hand. That is what I keep saying that for anybody to play politics with the lives of the people of Benway State is most unfortunate. But I want to say that we are implementing this law. Is there anything that your government is also playing a part in that politicising of the situation in your state? No, how? Because we are here, we are looking at, we are seeing what is happening here. We have a hand information about what is happening here in the state. And that is why whenever this happens, the governor will always raise alarm. The governor will also always raise it so that let the presidency know. But what I was going to say is that we have been implementing this law. And I want to say that more than 200 people have so far have been tried and convicted. It is not just forbidding, I mean, the law is not just forbidding opongrazi in the state. The law is also against cattle rustling. And so many people have been convicted. Who rustled cattle or livestock in the state here? So many have been convicted. Some are still standing trial in several courts in Benway State here. And so for anybody to come out and make spurious allegations against the governor that he has invested so much money. Well, it is led for him to come out. But for those of us who are here in the state, we know that the governor is being prudent with the management of resources, which is very big at his disposal in the face of all the security challenges. And so it is led for them to prove. OK. Michael Gousa is the Sony General in Benway State, and he's been our guest this evening. Thank you very much for speaking with us. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break. And when we return, we have a conversation on the issues of missing persons in Africa, and most especially in Nigeria to stay with us.