 So I think hello, they're supposed to be a session chair, but I think I'm just going to do this myself So please welcome hogger. He's So this is a few stickers that just in case you have an let's say Google play or fdroid On your phone and you want to try it out Then you don't and you don't want to use your like proper account because you don't trust the application Then you can use a temporary account So you can just take one sticker And then pass it on But you can of course also use your Gmail or other account if you want to we're going to There's a QR code on this Thing I'm going to tell and it tells on the paper What you can do So I Think four years ago. I was at a Europe Python in Italy. I'm talking about the return of peer-to-peer computing and I think the year afterwards Nicholas or maybe two years talked about the return of the return of peer-to-peer computing And peer-to-peer computing or also let's say Decentralized computing or however you wanted to call it has been a Strong topic mostly because of everybody knows this blockchain's Bitcoin and so on lots of crazy crypto currencies But at the time I was also talking about languages functional languages, I've been involved in Pi Pi in Pytest and talks these are three projects. I started and maintained for like ten years or something like this and Decentralization has been on my mind for a very long time and also in the last couple of years and Even though it's currently very much occupied by Blockchain and kind of cryptocurrencies now Libra and so on I think that they're and I know that there's also lots of other projects in the space ongoing still and I think that's Still interesting to look at that the the one thing I learned since in these four years when I was engulfed and talking with many other people from not only Python, but other projects in the Decentralization or peer-to-peer computing space is that I now think it I much less think about problems in terms of technical problems But I rather think about them Let's say more of like ecologic problems. So my and that's one moment That's not only about climate warming It's also that when you look at software today, there's just an awful lot of software everywhere Maybe you have heard the term software is eating the world For good or bad and And so what ecology actually means to me is discovering context explosions so Context explosion means that maybe you know this there's this thing that they discovered in biology called eco mimesis Eco me mad mimesis. I think and it is Kind of like a failure of reductionism. So you have this big thing like a big forest You want to make some statements? You want to make some research about it and you discover it's too complex like there's too much going on you can't do it so you kind of Constrain yourself you reduce yourself to like let's just look at this particular square kilometer or this particular And so on and then you scale it down and you find oh, it's still too complex and you go down to like a square meter And just look at what's happening there and you find it's still too complex And you can go on and go on and go on and it remains too complex to just completely Like look through it, you know and in that sense, that's what Ecology actually the kind of thinking that comes from there is realizing all of the complexities and I think that One thing that everybody knows by now Most people is the thing about climate warming and the other thing is like in the software worlds and I'm going to talk about messengers and When you talk when you think about messengers For example in Brazil You could make an argument and some people are making an argument about this That what's app and the concept particular way how you communicate and what's app was instrumental in Getting Bolsonaro the now Brazil right-wing president elected because in Brazil most people only got to know what's app One and a half or two years ago like It wasn't there before very much And then like basically 200 people 200 million to 300 million people Started using what's app within the time frame of like 12 to 16 months So all of the things that most of us have actually experienced over a longer Time frame like getting to know email getting to know messaging getting to know hoaxes Chain letters and all of these fun stuff that you get from your family, you know They got this like in no time so there was tons of fake news Spreading and people not really, you know, they were just fresh into these kinds of communications so they just took it for granted all kinds of fake stories about Political opponents and it's very hard to research this because Everything is end-to-end encrypted So there's no central place where you can see what everybody has been talking about so you just have like more indirect evidence well, and so even messaging kind of like Has a complex Relationship to political realities. It might even be involved in starting a world war, you know so it's really like a Context explosion that a lot of the things that happen in software actually have a lot of repercussions that you can't even Predict very much if you look at that and that's ecology. So aren't there already enough messengers? How many of you have at least three messengers in active use? Okay, it's almost everybody five five messengers anyone Still still some okay, so what's the point of? Going for another messenger There's no point by No, there is a point. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here And I think it's because Centralization actually is in many ways not just in this way. It's becoming Critical it's reaching critical state This is a picture of what happened and it was kind of I didn't know about this before but there's a lot of things going on in Indonesia right now, it's Rarely in the news maybe in the UK news, but certainly not in Germany or other places and and of may there was a lot of protests and as happened in many regions of the world They just blocked some services. What's that is easy to block signal is kind of easy to block and so on So they blocked these and that's where we got to know people started using data chat there So we got basically quite a number of users in This kind of event went there because it worked Like on some level you can talk about crypto and lots of other things But for software to basically work is kind of like a precondition to use it So centralization is becoming critical I think not only because of like political interference and because of the realization of many governments who now know How to deal with IT stuff how to block things? How to regulate it and so on but also because of the industries? tech complexity Facebook down whatsapp down Google down and so on this all happened in the last two three months and It's like you could say it's increasing and some people We're discussing this for a number of years is it's because also of the inherent technical complexity and running these infrastructures and it does give you some you know It does give Like reasons for thought that even these very experienced with very good people with a lot of resources Companies don't manage to keep the stuff online So that might be together with the political interferences that are happening Leads to this kind of notion centralization is becoming and reaching critical state so What's this about chat over email is an approach that basically says well Why don't we actually do the same thing the same UI the same UX that you get with whatsapp or telegram? But just use the email system There is of course a lot of backlash when you talk about email because it has been declared dead already 15 times or so last week and Like over the last two decades like starting around 2000 There was always this notion of email is dead, especially with like something like whatsapp and so on but for some reason it managed to to stay you know and You want to have some statistics with some references then you can go to email is not dead.com and If you look at the volumes, it's around three or four times the volumes that whatsapp does for example Or even more like three or four times at least in terms of sorry No, it's the legitimate legitimate email I guess it's because all of the companies and governments being very busy mailing each other and Inside and lots of cc's and so on. Yes, you can make all kinds of fun about why You know, this is not like a like nobody reads these emails and so on and so on But you can also note that mobile phones and many other many web services are actually rooted in email Google is still very much rooted in email in Gmail You know, it's not by a coincidence that they have invested so much in this email service. It is like a center of identification Well, in any case if you do chat over email if you basically have a chat interface, but use email servers. It means That you can interact with the email system You will know and that's the reason why you're using three or four or five messengers They don't talk with each other. They are each of them is an island and and a silo and you need to convince your Your counterparts to also use a particular thing. So here you could say well It's just another messenger But what you can do from day one in Delta chat is you can chat with anyone who just has a regular email account So they will just get a normal mail if they reply then This will appear in your chat window the reply So centralized messaging has this thing that we have like a central entity that That manages all the communication And everybody basically connects to this and entity in order to find out about others and in order to relay messages And also in the case of encryption both in WhatsApp and signal also to get the keys Because the WhatsApp servers and the signal servers are also key servers They they provide the keys so that you can actually encrypt to the other sides and How does this happen? Well that happens because These centralized centralized providers they map your phone number to a certain public Key that's an encryption key. That's the key that is used if somebody wants to encrypt a message to you Public key encryption. So but you need to find out about this because you just know maybe the phone number So you need to find out what is the other side's key and that's what you do by uploading your address book You upload your address book to WhatsApp or signal so that they can tell you Who has which keys so that you can actually send a message to them And nowadays Mobile numbers are very much tied to passports So if you are for some reason illegal or a refugee or anything then this is already problematic You cannot easily participate because you don't easily get a mobile number And that's maybe not well. It's it's a problem depending on the region you are in And of course depending on where you come from It certainly require it certainly produces a lot of control at this central side and also at in terms of metadata because everything is tied between phone numbers and identities These things last messaging in the sense of data chat is you can understand That I said is basically an email client And that means it just talks with your email server and nothing else and The email servers because we have this like 30 year Evolved standards. They know how to talk with each other. There's message formats. There's Protocols between them and the devices between the providers themselves and so on. So this is kind of sorted out There's existing open soft software that is used. There's All kinds of software toolings around this and basically data just ties into that and before you Wonder about that and you can you can verify it basically here later This is fast enough So it's not really a problem. Usually it takes like two seconds four seconds five seconds From one device to the next and even what's that can take longer sometimes. So it's not That's not really a problem also read receipts and so on but we can look at that later So we have centralized messaging decentralized messaging the main one main difference here is that you don't need to With that actually don't need to upload anything anywhere. You don't need to upload your address book You can immediately start messaging By knowing the other side's email address. So if you have email addresses Then you can just start chat with them And obviously for email addresses Oh, by the way, if you have any kind of question and want to raise something just do it. I will repeat the question and then Try to say something. Yes Yes, yeah, it creates a key for you, but it's all invisible to get to this And that's very important mobile phone numbers are tied to cell towers are tied Are very closely tied to the government around you because the cell towers physical you only get access To a cell tower basically in some kind of government tracking and in regulation way Whereas an email address you can get from any provider Wherever like if you are in the Ukraine and you want to have an email address from the Swiss company like proton mail or so no problem and then your identity is like run by this more or less Swiss American company and You are not directly affected by what the government regulates Let's say Eastern Europe in this case okay so that is clearly an advantage and To break it down and to tie it back to the picture of Indonesia, which is also Picture many other countries what this chat over email Approach provides is resilience You cannot I mean you can choose your own email provider can be any of thousands of providers in your region or somewhere else and It's also kind of hard to block it Like under unlike WhatsApp email is still in most countries used by the government itself And it's used by business So trying to block that on like a whole scale. Let's say we block port 25 Which is like the SMTP protocol for the whole country then you know nothing works anymore So you cannot you cannot just do it like on this broad scale At least you get a lot of damage by doing that And also it means that we don't have to run a platform that needs to be online We don't need to run servers that get attacked DDoS and so on and so on and Well, you can also run your own email server if you like if you really want to have Control over that and that's what many organizations and universities and so on do they run their own email infrastructure and it's not actually That hard anymore to do that. I mean there are certain things that you need to look at but I think this resilience Property is the main point of going for the chat over email Thing but it's a big point because it means that it's hard to block and You have a lot of choice and a big ecosystem to tap into Okay, so what about security when you talk to? news sites and You give them a call and you say hello. I'd like to tell you about a new messenger project There's two things a is Oh, no As an answer and B is I will refer you to our security guys Because messaging is typically tight now to security because the only interesting property is security and Also when you go to when you talk with people who are like In the IT field for a longer time That's also like one of the primary questions like how secure is it? So I'd like to talk a little bit about this To me it's a matter of perspectives one of the core Perspectives that we evolved in the data project, which is like two two and a half years old There is some prior research That exists but the main thing is that We see security as We measure it basically look at it in terms of what are the eventual outcomes for people Can they get? Imprisoned for that because they you know their data their communication has been observed and They have been related to other people who are in trouble and so on and so on So what is in the end the outcome for actual people involved? That is actually a bit of a change. It was a suggestion by Elia Nora Saita from 2016 Who said that engineers are too much focusing on the mathematical kind of conceptual abstract security? You know what actually counts as what what comes out at the end? not if your Algorithm is super clever, but it's very bad implemented and the usability is so bad that everybody messes it up Then you know, it doesn't matter that your original crypto algorithm is great also Yeah, well, no, no, I don't want to go into specifics. There's like I think it's really a mindset problem that Reminding ourselves that is actually about what happens to people in the end and not about some abstract concept and The second thing is for example research shows That people in the Ukraine for example, they trust telegram Now why? Telegram is unencrypted By default like you can have a secret one-on-one chat not a group chat a one-on-one encrypted chat But that's it everything else is clear on the platform and so on So why is that okay for many people for hundreds of millions of people? because of UX The user experience of telegram is so good and people like it so much that they use it and they regarded as secure in the Ukraine because of the Pavlov brothers Because they are clearly an enemy of Putin, right Because they're they're kind of like prosecuted by Putin ostensibly so Everything is fine. Like if they are basically, you know, it's like a strange logic It's not like coming from the engineering side. It's what is called by Max Weber like the heroic kind of Legitimacy that means that you have some heroes you identify with and whatever they suggest or do is okay There's a few examples currently on the world stage For this but it happens and so one of the reasons is UX It's a very nice user experience that you have another and in telegram And the other is that's perceived security through the people running it being on your side in some way So that's it has as an orientation when it comes to usability questions and UX questions telegram That's kind of like the gold standard in usability Of course also WhatsApp but Telegram was basically the the main one. So what we did in terms of finding out about the security of Of people in various countries is a lot of research. I Work with Xenia Amushina. She's from Paris original from Russia for A number of like two or three years now three years now and she has done a lot of research in various countries And also during the datajet project in the last two years where we actually talk do interviews with people in the ground who go to various dangerous places and Are in need of having communication tools and asking them like what is important to you? Because that's quite a different perspective than if you go to an IT conference and ask an engineer What is important to you because then it's like the brilliance of a crypto algorithm You know of the brilliance of some implementation, but not actually something that is tied to the messy situation on the ground so That's why but I would like to start with like security is really something It's not it's not as much cryptographic as you think So let's talk about cryptography I That I said also kind of involved in conjunction with another project I cool started Two and a half years ago, which is called auto crypt. It has this beautiful bicycle lock It's like also tying back to ecology As a logo so it's a very UX driven specification for achieving end-to-end encryption in email It's opportunistic so it actually drops back back to clear text because the primary goal is that people can read their messages Everybody who's tried was tried PGP actually here. Oh Wow, okay, so you will have this situation I guess where you got an email that you couldn't read and you Send an email that the other side couldn't read. Oh and so on and so on not to talk about the key server problems and so on but Well, one of the principal things in autocrypt is that we said We don't want to have any interaction With the user about keys like the keyboard the keys that the term key cryptographic key Does not appear in the user interface. We don't want to have it there As soon as you start talking about keys, you're in trouble, right? Because I mean we might be able to talk about it, but in in general you can't do it And I think even if we talk about it, we easily get confused And we have the wrong keys and whatnot So it's it's something basically when you go for like more of a mass appeal Then I think you can't avoid this kind of paradigm of saying never talk about you might you might talk about encryption Maybe but not about keys And it also means that that chat unlike all other messengers is compatible with other email apps use k9 if you use enic mail if you use Balsa on linux and there's a few others upcoming this year probably Then it will Encrypt end-to-end between your app and the other app even those are not the same apps so that's what's what's made possible by The autocrypt standard and I think one validation of that was last year when somebody said Oh, I didn't know that you can use pgp without first listening to an hour of explanations Crypto parties However, I said that autocrypt happily drops back to clear text if it has the impression that the other side can't read it Maybe just one thing why I'm saying opportunistic If we mail with each other And you have two devices one device is let's say k9 mail And another device is your web mail interface to Gmail Then you will sometimes use this and sometimes the other So seen from my perspective. I'm sometimes getting an encrypted mail from you and sometimes a clear text mail Because in your Gmail interface at least for now You don't have this end-to-end encryption So then autocrypt says well if in doubt don't encrypt because the primary thing that people want to do is what they want to communicate So don't get in their way of saying no no you should change everything before you can communicate Do you let the users know that this is being sent in clear test text because you're falling back Well, it depends on the user interface of the particular app It's yeah, I mean let's It's it's a complex. We have discussed this many hours It's a complex topic in the case of Delta chat you will notice that it happens, but it's not getting in your face completely So this is opportunistic and of course that lot of contention about this the first page of the spec is devoted to this topic and Also the reasoning so if you want to understand the exact reasoning for this then Read the first page of the autocrypt level one spec It's just the 12 page spec. It's not very large It doesn't have key servers, so keys are transmitted in email messages in the header, but I'm not going to talk about autocrypt now in detail What I do want to talk a bit about is that we have something called verified and to end encrypted chats and that is These are chat groups you can see they have this little blue check mark You might know from Twitter or something like this we use this as a visual indication that this is a verified chat And the verified chat has two properties. It's always end-to-end encrypted It doesn't fall back to opportunistic and it's safe against active attacks and That happens because you only can join an encrypted verified encrypted group through a QR code scan So I show you something and then you can join the group through this scan and you can add new members through another scan so If you want to be 10 people in one group We need to have nine joins like I enjoy in the first person and join another person and these persons join More but all in all for 10 people to exist in a verified group. You need nine verifications and that's 81 verifications less than what you would need in signal or whatsapp Because they actually also three mark they also offer Verification, but you need to do it with every group member So for 10 people it means that everybody needs to do nine verifications basically More or less, maybe it's a bit less, but it's it's like it's like a lot more than this kind of The Delta Jet way is basically just having a fully connected graph Like I start the group and then everybody who is going to be in the group will be connected to me through a Chain of verifications a blockchain of verifications It is actually quite similar So this is This has evolved in an EU research project and there's a paper about this how this is done But Yeah, I just wanted to say that it exists so if you're very afraid about the opportunistic side of things then you can always go for Verified end-to-end encrypted with your partner or other groupings another security Issue is What we identified together with activists in Eastern Europe is location streaming because if you have people going around in Let's say Bela Russia in white Russia and they vanish and That is kind of a regular occurrence that happens during demonstrations or other events Then one of the questions the organizers of events have is where are these people? They can't find them anymore. So one of the things is that Location streaming Allows you to say I want to stream like only on my side. I want to stream my location to this chat and This might be just you know, somebody who is somewhere else who's like in a safe situation. We call this base camp And they see actually where everybody moves also the movements Like in the past so you can see on the desktop version. There's like a slider You can see like what happened in the last couple of hours So location streaming once you enable it basically tracks your location and sends it end-to-end encrypted to your chat partners so that you know if you do vanish at some point at least there's a last position where you have been and All of the photos and audio messages and videos that you do will also have location text So that kind of like gives some tracking and also after some kind of action allows to map everything This is a security feature in a in a particular way. It's not about ECC keys or perfect forward secrecy or anything like this, but this affects people for real Like, you know, you can save people through that What we did do in end of April also in Kiev in Ukraine was we kind of used introduced this Location streaming by playing it and you see this here. This is the quarter of Kiev called poodle Where we played the game and the game was played with these cards It's probably not well readable it reads something like politician whistleblower Journalist and so on and you draw a card. There's two teams cubes and spheres and they basically have two coordinators two basecams and they fight with each other or try to do things with each other But they also have to uncover lots of hidden places in the city So you can also use location streaming for other things in this case. We were using it for some kind of safe real-life testing Another security feature that is upcoming. It's not implemented yet Is what we call burner accounts. You might know burner messages from signal burner accounts are really what they sound like if you scan a QR code you get a temporary account that is completely removed after one week if You are a group of 10 people or if we want to be like in a temporary group like this I would show the QR code you would all get a temporary account after one week the server deletes all of these accounts We have a verified group with each other and We have kind of randomized and that's the important thing. We have randomized accounts So maybe we choose nicknames on how we can recognize each other. I mean, this is a bit of a large group I guess But it means that when my phone gets taken Then my contacts my metadata that gets revealed by my phone being seized Will not reveal very much just a number of random accounts Compare this with phone numbers mobile numbers Getting one phone from from like somebody who's involved in an action and you get all of the contacts In mobile numbers, which at least in the EU means like identities real-life identities for free So that's something in burner accounts. You don't get this you just get a Number of accounts that have no long-time identity track record That is something that has been Designed or is designed with activists on the ground. So it's not something that we just you know think might be useful or so We actually have discussions with the people affected and design the things from there the security and so on What we also have in terms of a bit more kind of security engineering thing is RPGP which is full rust implementation of PGP done by Friedel Siegelmeier and It supports the auto-crypt subset of open PGP because Auto-crypt is not it uses open PGP, but in a very minimal way It says very specifically what you use out of PGP. For example, no key servers. It's not needed. We don't need it at all and Our PGP implements this subset in full rust and next week. I think we will get the security report so that means that it also has a Independent review there What we want to do quite soon is we want to have like when I told about this game in Kiev that was Kind of real life, but not really because it wasn't actually like Kiev is not very dangerous in some sense at least most parts of it Whereas the people we are talking with there are Operating in areas that are dangerous and we want to actually prepare and then go for real-life testings of things during actual actions there and Our general focus other than for example what signal or other messengers provide is that we don't regard everybody in a chat group as equal But we actually see that there's some asymmetry There's usually organizers who's who are like in a safe place and they're helping others to actually do something So if you have for example something like ephemeral messages, you really just want to have them one-sided You want to have them from the people on the ground? But the people at the base camp who actually look at everything They want to see all the messages and and actually also have a history of these messages and so on Okay, so that concludes I Don't talk about this this concludes The security part I hope I could give you some Insights on the way on how we think about security It doesn't mean that we don't care about crypto. In fact, we have RPGP and you know some other things But it means that we focus on the actual outcomes for people So now software that's probably also why you are here There is a core library It's called that that's at core sometimes DCC It's MPL licensed so can also be used in commercial projects and is actually used in commercial products for example by open exchange or mainly by open exchange currently and It is the Library that is used by all the data chat user interfaces. It's a it's a very UX Kind of UI oriented library It doesn't give you access to mime and IMAP and SMTP and auto prep and the persistence layer and so on This is all kind of hidden what you get is at this contact Create a chat for this contact like on this level is the API and Give me all the members of this chat Send a message to this chat send an audio message to this chat and stuff like this, but you don't get to specify like a mime message was just like the Email format this is all handled by the core library So in that sense, it's kind of easy to write a UI because you don't have to handle all of these details Yourself and we are currently transitioning this core library to also be a full rust Version currently it's see like the Android version that you might be using is see but the upcoming and Partly used already version is done in rust So we have Delta Android. That's quite stable Since last week we did like the declared this to be stable This is still using the C library because we wanted to be stable the rust part is still a bit It is kind of stable, but it has some glitches here and there so we don't feel comfortable That's actually Android is used by Hard to say let's say 30,000 people or something like this It's hard to count because it has been only on fdroid for Two years and since February or March this year It's also on Google Play and there it has something like 20 30,000 installs or so But also a lot of uninstalled so you can't really count this as like active users But this is quite stable very feature complete Many people use it desktop is on Linux and Mac quite stable I would say also still using the C library there on Windows We actually already use the rust core library Because it's much easier to build the building the C thing and Windows has been too hard basically And then in rust it was relatively straightforward Rust is very good in terms of cross-compiling to lots of different targets Then iOS is evolving strongly currently. There's just another quite good Test-flight release from yesterday and we think it's going to go to App Store. Let's say in the next two or three months And the core bindings The most complete bindings I think are in Python you can find the docs on Pi data chat. There's also the node bindings are also they're used for the desktop because the desktop and we get to this later Is using electron? And of course the spiffed and Java bindings they are contained in the iOS and Android repos. They are not packaged Separately although this could happen So who has managed to I don't know if you were just listening or also try to configure your phone Somebody okay. Did you try to join already or did anything work? Do I have network? Oh wait a second. I might have to look out here. Okay. That's a bit hard for me to do I need to restart my desktop. Yes. It takes a while to refresh. Oh a lot of people joined. Ah, hi Okay, I can't type very much But this is the Papers that got distributed. We are 10 members now by scanning this QR code But the time is running out a bit. So I'm going to continue here. So Delta bots that was also Something that I'm That I'm actually starting like as we like in the last couple of weeks especially and I really want to have the the bot Developing chat bots that you can use with that chat is like a thing of the next half year that we want to like give a lot of energy to The nice thing about the data chat bots is that unlike in WhatsApp and in Telegram You can just you only need an email address You only need SMTP and IMAP credentials and then you run it wherever you don't need to read just that anywhere at the telegram server or the WhatsApp business API It is quite difficult to use You can run it wherever also inside your organization You can make it such that nobody can reach it other than the people in your organization and so on and so on So that's like a very nice and easy deployment story There is one huge. I think at least by now 15 to 20,000 users in Cuba Who have a very special situation In that Everything in Cuba that stays on the island in terms of network traffic is relatively affordable Everything that leaves the island is like very expensive and you may imagine why I mean It's like decades of sanctions from the US and so on. It's directly next to the US so They don't have very good connectivity outside this island So there's an economic barrier. You can get the connectivity, but it's expensive and So what people are using is the local Cuban email server now tar dot cu That's relatively cheap. You can get it on your mobile and that's why Delta chat is getting quite some take up Such that they jumped in early used the Python bindings One of the people there and wrote simple bot What you see here is on the left-hand side a chat And you will find that it's kind of like you send a command and you get back some form of an attachment Get Delta 3. HTML when you click on that I can't show this year when you click on that then there is an app that you have to install separately called Z H we zipped HTML view and When you click on that then it opens and what you see is The simple bot interface So this is a chatbot interface in HTML You see it here and you can click on it and when you actually do something like get me help or you know Find some friends whatever Then it sends you back to the chat Because it's a mail to link So you this is actually you can use it to browse Webpages so you say give me this website it goes to the bot the bot Sanitizes this strips this down. So it's like not so much size Gives you the HTML with all of the links Substituted by mail to links. So when you click on them you land back in Delta chat And you just say send so you have a complete history of like this the site that you visited It's very low traffic and it's like an interesting hack You could say on how to write bots, of course we can I mean we could make this almost automatic in the future That you basically allow this spot To use Delta chat basically in the background So you can do this kind of bot communication differently, but that's maybe something to discuss tomorrow So the Python bindings on Linux are very easy to install they are by no binary for Linux So you can just say pip install data chat You don't need to compile anything or so on and you can just directly start on other platforms You still require first having your rust Cork compile and then with pip install basically from the source code you need to install the bindings The interfacing between the rust library and the Python bindings is done through CFFI That means it should also I think it does also. I'm not sure if you tested this actually but Should also work in pi pi This kind of interfacing. It's a relatively simple usage so That's certainly if you are around also tomorrow, then you can just test it if it really works And of course the tests are written in pi tests and they're used as functional tests also against the core So there's a lot of like in the bindings. There's a lot of functional testing of this high-level API and more that we need to do in this area, but it's a good basis There's also like a simpler than the simple bot example That is in the data bot repository That is also the basis for the simple bot, but obviously the simple bot has done some more things So that makes basic usage of the high-level API And you can directly deploy it like if you have SMTP and IMAP credentials or you can easily create this it's a matter of really two minutes and you are Connected and can do something We did get I think a couple of weeks ago. We got some funding specifically for completing The move to rust in terms of the chatbots and also implementing all kinds of chatbot examples in addition to what we have like RSS activity pub matrix IRC bridges and so on There's some good planning and ideas around this, but the idea is to do this in Python and we're also going to sprint about this tomorrow and If anybody here or if you know of anybody who's interested Possibly interested in this and there's also some money to be gotten for getting involved here And helping to drive this Effort there's going to be a lot of things happening there One of the things that some of us definitely want to go is use and produce gaming bots So there's some talk about for example implementing the game of werewolf Maybe you know where wolf so Everybody joins and the bot says hello and then the game starts and the bot basically randomizes the roles opens the chats with the various people you can imagine like roughly how this could go and It's designed and discussed with 14 year old girl who's very eager to get this Done Because they are playing werewolf currently with an app like on in their school with an app called telonym Not sure if you heard of this and it's crazy. It's like an it's it's a crazy app. It's When you you get messages, but you don't know from whom Right, how can this go wrong? I don't know so They're using it to play werewolf with it But it's like also privacy-wise and so on. It's a disaster, but okay The last note to close up On when like how do we actually do this? What's that exists since 10 years has lots of investment and resources and so on Telegram is also long-going already. So how can we enter this scene? Like how do we get funded? How do we actually do this you got some glimpses of like when I mentioned Kiev and this and that So I'm going to try to this is the coffee bus in Kiev It's a very strange thing to have there's like four coffee buses and in Kiev It's like a double thing. It doesn't come from the UK. I don't know where it comes from and they serve coffee and This particular one I think has a lot of Hollywood pictures inside and it's very strange coffee is kind of okay and So, you know, you hang out there and also next to the park and you are in Kiev 200 kilometers from Chernobyl 300 kilometers from a war zone and so on. So it's a kind of a different feeling Then what you would have let's say sitting in a Starbucks in San Francisco It's like a very so location matters like how and where you actually do things and what is your context in which? You're operating makes a lot of difference. I think and we are basically saying, okay We want to have really different contexts and locations Especially of people who are in risk We have a lot of physical gatherings When I co-started Pie pie I think 17 years ago or so also with I mean over there But we established also was having sprints Like every I don't know six eight weeks or so at some point we did sprints And that's also what we do here, but in a slightly different way and that we have also partial gatherings And we never really do We don't sit everybody together except for the party Like there's a lot of partial gatherings even within this bigger framing And that's also what's happening that people meet be it often in several parts of Germany Like just three or four people out of the maybe 15 who are actively involved Because that's already helping. It's not like everybody needs to meet all the time with everybody, you know so but the physical gatherings in in like Complementing the Remote work that we usually do are really important Backgrounds you see here on the left Xenia I mentioned already I'm working with her for a very long time already. She comes from Russia originally and she has done a lot of the research and a lot of the usability things That we are doing also relate to her work And you can see the glimpse of the guy with the coffee mug here at the park in Kiev on the right-hand side that is beyond Who actually started the whole that I said project two and a half years ago? And on the right-hand side you see a placeholder for all of the other people you can't see here What we usually do is we don't do project meetings So we don't say this is a Delta chat sprint come or something like this every event has like a different name and We also invite various people around the project Who are not directly contributing but who are kind of like for example? Heart of code it's a feminist hacker space in Berlin, you know And we have some relations and they were interested so they joined for various reasons I'm not going to go into that now And so we have befriended projects also other decentralization projects who are just around so we do some things We talk with each other, you know, we have some food whatever but Otherwise they can work on whatever they want. They don't need to integrate into our data chat structure or something like this So that's a bit a little bit of an open gathering culture. I think that Everybody came to appreciate very much Money-wise just to conclude on this we got some money from the you we got some money from the open tech fund That some of you might know and we are also going to get Some new open tech fund money. It's just been One week ago that they accepted that I mentioned the NL net one and we have a lot of people actually who are really really really good at What they do and they just help us and they got they get to steer the project also It's not that they just help a little bit or so but they actually get a say in how things are done And I think that's quite important like if you have a mixture of people who get paid and people who Just participate. There's always the risk that the people who get the money actually also get to make all of the important decisions You know, and that's something I let's say that I learned Earlier on that it's very good if it's possible in the project culture to give the contributors who don't get money And who are contributing lots of things also is say and how things are done Longer term money is that's a bit of a mid of a more involved discussions It's we are also like if that I said grows like bigger than it is now then we might also just try to go for more donations There's also upcoming organizations who want to use that I said a university in Germany for example who wants to deploy it everywhere Not only in their stuff, but also with Microsoft exchange Like it works, you know, it's standard based it uses IMAP and SMTP. It's fine. It works You don't need to change your email infrastructure for the legit and just use it as is usually and we are also thinking about Special per pay apps To go for So no VC money, I think venture capital money and this kind of endeavor is a dangerous thing And we don't want to go for that Okay, maybe as a and I think I stop it at that I Think in 2005 I gave at the CCC in Berlin a talk With Beatrice During was also involved in the PI PI project About agile programming, which was a big thing scrum and so on in 2005 and we talked you go back to the talk we talked about lessons learned and how it doesn't really fit the bill and Then I don't know two months ago or so. I was 2019 Some student came to me. Oh, did you hear this new agile thing? And I was like It's very strange. I mean, I don't know Anyway, I think it's it's time to move on One thing that I they I kind of keep advertising or talking about is that I think it's good to not have too many roundtables to not have Not base everything on an assembly where everybody Discusses and decides everything it seems like a very natural thing. I don't have the time now to go very much into this But I think it's also and I've done my fair share of assemblies. Let's say Probably more than most of you. I've done a couple of hundred assemblies and plenaries in all kinds of collective projects and I think it's overestimated And also dangerous and because it's exclusive like you can make whatever kind of rules in Terms of talking with each other that everybody gets a fair share and talking and so on and you want to be very Inclusive and so but in the end you're going to be on a table and some people will talk others will not talk and Others will not even be there and Participate in the talk for various reasons. That's always the case in any given project that has a regular practice of doing assemblies Usually 20 to 30 percent actually show up to do this kind of discussion. So it's problematic Also in terms of deadlines and schedules. We try to not do it like we have some rough Wants where we want to be But we don't keep a timetable like exact times when anything should be ready that worked despite all the languages despite all the Platforms we are involved in And not like that much money worked quite well for us And we try to take up if somebody comes to the sprint or to the gathering and wants to do something Particular and tries it out and it seems to work It might actually shift the project towards that direction It just happened in April because before April we didn't have a full rust call library that only happened in April because Friedel discovered this wonderful called tool called C to rust So if you have plain C you can just translate it to rust and he said let's try it And It was not on our plan We wanted to get stable releases out in May because that's one of the promises we made to the funder You know so but like If somebody has the expertise and really wants to do something and it makes a sense on a certain level Then we try to go for it Even though that was like counter to some other things we wanted to do. So that's what I call situational developments Yes, so I think I'd like to leave it at that and maybe just Mention tomorrow so Tomorrow the sprint topics. There's a number of things you can also bring something and Diverge on the one hand dealing and playing a bit with the data chat bindings Write some chat bots, maybe the beginning of a gaming bot or so and There's also an idea together with Florian here from cute browser fame to actually See about kick-starting qt-based desktop client because everybody knows electron is horrible, right? You know electron the Java based I Not sorry JavaScript based Chrome big Well, it's it has also advantages to have this kind of framework, but I think a qt-based one Based on the nice Python bindings we have that now eventually work Would be an interesting project, okay, thanks everybody You