 Welcome to Jenkins documentation office hours. It's the 20th of December 2021. Grateful to have everyone here. Here's what I've got for possible agenda topics. So a news item. And in that Java eight deprecation pull requests are in progress. We need a plan to actually do the deprecation. And so that's needed deprecation plan. How about that? Java eight for running Jenkins, right? Not the agent. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Jenkins on Java eight. That's very good. Yes. Yeah, although Java eight will eventually end life as well. Jenkins is the way content migration. There's a weekly change log LTS change log. And modernizing a plugin. Any other topics we should put on the list. Oh, wait a second. There's another, there's a reminder reminder. Reminders. Or maybe we just put it in news. No meeting next, next month, next week. I think that's what we decided, right? Did you say what about the. January. We'll meet the 23rd. We will meet again. Oh, let's see the third. Oh no, you know what? I will tend to be out. Would it be okay if we skipped the next two weeks? Question mark. Okay. Either way, but I was thinking you were unavailable on the third. Yeah. So Mark is out. December. December 30th for sure. And I've planned to take time off. January three 2022 as well. Just to take a little extra. Good for you. D Raj, does that work okay for you? We cancel for two weeks. Great. All right. Okay. So one, one item on the news list. And. Basel Crow has been submitting experiments of various sorts. With a prep to deprecate Jenkins on Java eight. So in, let's see, it was in about November, November, maybe it was 2021. We switched the Docker images. To Java 11 by default. And now we're, it's starting to feel like it may be time to also. To also drop. Plan for the eventual drop of Java eight completely as an example. J unit or the. J get has dropped. Java eight support. With their J get six release. And there are others that we're seeing doing the same pattern. Yeti. That's used for our windstone package. Has has has available. Java 11 support available or support. That's called this dedicated Java 11 support. In Jetty 10. In Java 11. In Java 11. Jetty nine. Nine dot X continues to be supported for now. Any question on that? So there's a discussion on. A mailing list discussion. And I need to submit. The deprecation plan really will need to come in the form of a Jenkins enhancement proposal. We need to scrub a whole bunch of documentation to find references. We need to have to add more information. They have some of the other slides. I was wondering, do we need to have any examples of like the new stuff? Like, is there anything different? I don't think there is, but. Yeah. That's, that's a good point. Good reminder that. That needs to be included in the, in the enhancement proposal because we will need to sweep the documentation. I don't know that it's any larger sweep than the. Right, the UI. It's probably less work, but everything's gotta be read. That is where the doc is code paradigm falls down is there's like no automatic way to check something like this. Right, well. We've just gotta read. Yep, review the existing content for Java 8 specific references. Yeah, good point. Yep, okay. But it is, but this is still, when you say dropping Java 8 completely, does that mean for agents also? Yes. Okay, is that happening later than, is that happening now or later? Oh, none of this is happening now. There will be a plan that will be announced, but it will be simul, it will be concurrent that when we stop, when we declare that we're no longer, no longer delivering Java 8 usable bits, it will be no longer for agent and no longer for controller. There are proposals as to alternatives as to how to do it. Things like one idea that was suggested is, announce a six to nine months, a deadline in six to nine months and give people a fair warning, deprecation warnings in various codes, in various components. So if we detect you running on Java 8, we tell you, hey, we're gonna take this away in this time period. You know where we're gonna get killed? Oh, where's that? Is the pipeline docs all over the place to illustrate where you've got different agents for different scenarios. And they have all got, they did have Java 7 and Java 8 and I think they got cleaned up to have Java 8 and Java 11. But if we're only doing one Java release, we're gonna need something else that we can use to illustrate those different. Well, but so that's a fun one to be able to show how you can do multiple agents running Java 11, but compiling provided code with Java 8. Right, is there a good, so Meg, do you have like a good example of like those files? I assume that you did it before, right? Kind of, yeah. I was doing it for some CloudB stuff, but I think we're gonna, I'll go looking for it and see what I get. Cool, cool. Cause that's like, maybe we can like try to see if there was a pattern or something we can search for. If there's like an easy way, like if it was, if you, if it's done it before, we can look for the commit hash for the GitHub pull request that made the changes and we can just like copy those files from before. Yeah, it won't work. I was doing it for some pages or else that are, yeah. So we're looking, yeah, but maybe, I mean, I guess, I guess what actually the question is what should, you know, as different people read, if we find issues, we should file issues there for it. Do we, are we gonna have a, could we put a label in the issues? Well, we should probably have issues. I would guess we wanna have an Epic in issues.jankins.io to track, to track the deprecation, right? So I've watched, I've watched really with quite, been quite impressed at how well Daniel Beck and Vodak Filonia have used an Epic to track the Apache log for J2 zero day vulnerability. That Epic that they've done is brilliant. And it puts all the information in one place with easy tracking of all sorts of things. So I think we'll want to do something similar like that. Just say, hey, here's the Java 8 deprecation Epic, and then here are a bunch of issues under it because there are things like, here's one example, some plugins don't run on Java 11. And we've identified those plugins in the transition, in the document we did when we did the Docker image upgrade, but we just have to remind people, in particular, anything based on Ruby runtime, and that is JEP 7 calls for the deletion, the complete removal of Ruby runtime code. So we've got a reason to do that, but it hasn't been gone all the way yet. We need to just take it all the way and admit Ruby runtime is no longer supported. So has that addressed, are there other concerns? So Meg or Kristen, are there other things you can think of like that? Really, but I definitely think that if we, we should try to do this within a few, maybe not like spread it out over to me pull request. So if we have to do it again, we at least can go back and reference what we did before. So it's easy to find all these places. Oh, okay. I would like to be able to keep it all together. So we know that when we have to upgrade future Java versions, because it's going to happen again, when 11 goes out, that like is deprecated. I just want to try to make sure that we find everything. I definitely wouldn't have known about that stuff, Meg, that you brought up. So it's like, oh, that's really good to remember. Yeah, it's going to be a fun time. We're just going to have to read the entire doc set. Oh man. Well, but okay, that's a lot of work, but not harmful. Yeah, I guess maybe the good thing is you could take out that is, oh, if we're reading it, it's a good chance to visit and fix or open some, take other future improvement tickets. So that could be a good thing. Yeah. Yeah, yep. Are we providing mental health support for people who get profoundly depressed over this? Well, so we have some users who have been very vocal. We have had, we've had some users who are very vocal. Randall Becker, for instance, is, is, he's a, I believe he works in a consulting arrangement, consulting on high end banking class hardware, like the tandem nonstop servers, you know, the HPE nonstop servers. And they don't do, they don't have Java 11 even available on that platform. So, so when Java 8 goes away, he's, he can't run Jenkins agents on his tandem machines. And I think he said that they were hoping that the Java 17 licensing conditions would be more palatable, but it, the reality is there will always be some subset who will say, hey, I can't run Jenkins on my whatever because Java 11 is not available to me. And the answer there is, sorry, that's some people will, will not be able to run it after this transition, whenever it is six months, 12 months from now. So they could run it if they don't upgrade to newer versions of Jenkins. Oh yeah, we're not gonna shut down. We're not gonna stop the ability to use current Jenkins, but we will, we will stop, for instance, doing security support because our security patches are only for most recent LTS and most recent weekly. No, I was just talking about the depression of reading all of the docs and I get- Oh, oh, that depression. Oh, sorry. Yes, I can't help with that. The writer versus the geek, so. Got it. Okay. Anything else on Java 8? Is Java 17 support under development? I haven't anything about it. In a, in a manner of speaking, yes. So we have a Java 17 preview, Docker image available. So that's for the controller. We have Java 17 preview work in progress for Docker agent images, but it's not, it's not delivered yet. And we don't have any Java, no Java 17 support in the, what I'd call the native install, the native packages like MSI, Deb, RPM, et cetera. And, oh, actually that's another one that we've got to talk about. Linux transition from system five in it to system B. Okay. Sorry, back to where we were. So Jenkins on Java 17. So did that answer your question, Meg? Yes. Now, the last time we did a major Java upgrade was eight to 11, and it was, I think, most of the year to do the work. So it was an enormous amount of work. It doesn't appear to be quite as much work for this one, but there's still a lot of work. And I'm not seeing, I'm not seeing, I suspect what we'll need to do is we'll need, again, a JEP, an EPIC, and a lot of community work to make it happen. Last time it was, there were eight or 10 people, at least working on it at various times across six or nine or 12 months. Maybe a good candidate for DevOps World and a contributor summit there or something like that, September. Okay. Anything else on Java 17? Okay, next topic then. Linux, we've got work in progress and more noise from people to switch our Linux installers from using the old style system five in it to the more modern system B. And it's, I'm worried that Mark worries that there is lots of compatibility risk there, but the system five subsystems in those Linux systems are not, they're just not getting the maintenance any longer, whereas system B is the way they do stuff now. And yes, it will impact the documentation because we'll need an upgrade guide, need changes to the install guide, et cetera. Yep, maintenance is always where it is, the initial writings. Yep. So then UI updates, weekly 2.325 has the new plugin manager and it looks gorgeous. And so any screenshots are already screened. So Jenkins LTS, 2.33X LTS in March will have those UI improvements. So we won't see it in the January LTS or the February LTS 319.2 and 319.3 won't include it. All right. Any question on the UI updates? Screenshots are available in various places. Okay, next topic then, the Jenkins is the way site. I don't know if all of you had seen this in the past, but this site is a place where Alyssa Tong had done an initiative to gather success stories for Jenkins users from around the world. And you see here a nice map that highlights some of the places from which success stories have been received all over North and South America, Europe, Asia, all sorts of places where we've got great, great stories. Look at missing Africa. Yeah, it is kind of sad, isn't it? But that's, we keep working on that. Yeah. And we don't have any from what I'd call the heart of Russia. I suspect there should be some from the western portion of Russia, but yeah. And I know that we've... Oh yeah, that's surprising. We should have lots from Japan and Korea because we know Kosuke's background and we know that we've done Japanese user conferences for many, many years. Yeah, yeah. Oh well, but just so you're aware, this site was funded separately by Cloudbees and we'd like to now move the content from this site instead place it under Jenkins.io and redirect from Jenkins, from this location to Jenkins.io. Gavin Mogan has agreed to take a look at it. He's apparently done WordPress migrations before and he's comfortable with what it takes to do them. Yeah, the stories, the stories are actually, I think the stories are really quite elegant. Things like here, let's see. Reduce costs, improve delivery time. There are stories here from IBM from interesting large companies, not just little companies, you know. Okay, so here's one for Numocity and there are all sorts of interesting stories told here and gathered, different solutions, GitHub based, et cetera. So yeah, very, very, very cool site. Thanks very much to Cloudbees for sponsoring it. Yeah. Okay, so next topic is, we're sorry that I'm droning on so much. I'm talking an awful lot. So a weekly changelog, are you okay if we do that or do we want to, Dheeraj, do you and I need to spend significant time here before we do weekly changelog? Is it okay if we do weekly changelog next? You can go back next. Okay. Quick question, what about the weekly changelog for the next two weeks? Oh, good question. I propose that we just admit that they're not gonna get the love and attention that they have before. We'll have to edit them when we get back. Okay, we'll just release what the default that they get without the editing, right? Yeah. I would be free that time. I can try to edit it if you like. Yeah, the challenge there, I think, Dheeraj, is that you could certainly submit a pull request after release. You can't edit before the release because it requires administrator permission to make edits to the pull requests. Right, exactly. Okay, I can do that after the release. But if you're willing to edit after the release, that would be great. That would be wonderful. Excellent, thank you. Also, I have to... Great, thank you. Thanks a lot. So I have two agenda topics in the chat as well. So they're very small. Oh, okay. I'm sorry for putting them into a solo. Oh, let's get them in. Okay, so your was... Okay, let's see. How does CloudB... Oh, yes, okay, good. So that's a good question. How does CloudB's hire? What about India, right? So, and so that's one that I'll take up with you happily, Dheeraj. And then... And what do they look for in candidates who have less than zero years of experience? I have no idea. So that's... But I can happily chase it and see. Okay. And how do I participate in Google Summer of Code? And so let's talk to those two to assure that we've got to answer the question like what's the timeline? How do I apply? Et cetera. And I would put those even above the modernizing topic because I think the modernizing topic is more me saying hey, I'm not making the progress that I should but that's the way it goes. So did that capture your questions? Okay, Dheeraj and we'll get to them. Yes, thanks. Okay, cool. All right, so we okay with doing the weekly changelog now and then we'll get to the other topics? I'm good, yes. All right, so here's what we've got. Okay, so first action. We've got a developer topic. Move to the end of the list. Okay, so here deprecating and okay, I'm not sure that. Well, developer I guess is fine but it really is purely developer. So do you have your note of action items in the... I do. So as a developer topic moved to the end of the list there is next one though, 6075 bump the task reactor. I think that should just be hidden. Let's not publish at all any objections to that. So the text that says is no proposed changelog bump the task reactor. That's pure dependency update. 1000%. Okay, good, thank you. Okay, all right, so all we'll do here is mark this as skip. Okay, done. Bump memory monitor, that's another one. Skip, okay. Then bump executable war, again, that's a skip. Sorry, I should have done these before the meeting. I could have spared us this much. Okay, bump version number, another one skip. Okay, bump spotless. Okay, that one's... The agent to controller security subsystem is now always enabled. The admin customizable allow list for callables and file paths have been removed. The ability to access some files in the controller from agents has been removed. Some plugins are incompatible with this change and may need to be updated. See the issue tracker. Okay, so this is one that will need to have its hyperlink fixed, okay. Sorry, Meg, you had a comment? Yeah, well, not for the log. We need, I know a piece of document needs to be reviewed, but Daniel probably knows where it is too. Oh, okay, there are additional things that need to be reviewed in the security section, for instance. Right. Okay, good. I think it's, yeah. So you can't, oh, I see, you can't disable it. It was always enabled by default. Right, yeah, so we had a checkbox before that checkbox is gone. Okay. Do we need to extra highlight this? Because this could be a... This is big. Well, it's shown as a major RFE. Okay. And it will appear as a major RFE, although that ampersand one has me perplexed. I'm not sure why that's appearing there. So we'll have to look at that again. That one may, there may be something surprising going on there that we may not have a working change log if that thing's still there. So, but yeah, this one is a major RFE and it absolutely should be highlighted and it will be at the top of the list by default. Everything we've seen thus far is dropping all the way to the bottom. So this is the first thing in the list. Awesome. Okay. So then an RFE to add a missing SVG for... Okay. This one needs a full stop at the end of the text. And now this one, okay, adds an... Oh, okay. So this really is... It was missing in the sense that... Not in the sense that it showed a broken icon, but rather in the sense that it was showing an old style icon even on screens with very high resolution. Okay. Next then add a report an issue link to plugins in the plugin manager. And this one is so cool. Thanks to Daniel for doing this. Okay. So here's what it looks like now. So this gives you a chance to see the new plugin manager and this report an issue blue text here. You click that and it takes you to the correct location to submit a bug for that plugin. Wow. Oh yeah, this is very nice. Now, what did I think that I needed to make some change here? I don't see any change to make there. That looks good to me. Any objections to just leaving this change log entry as it is? No, it looks nice. Okay. All right. Next one, and this is another one that needs a, that will need a fix to the references and is a substantial one. Okay. Fix hyperlink for Groovy upgrade. So Groovy is upgrading the base Groovy inside Jenkins is upgrading from 2.4.12 to 2.4.21. And the, it's been reviewed for potential security impact, et cetera. So real positive there, but some risks. This is one that I think we might want to even call it a major RFE, but I don't know. I mean, ultimately we hope users will detect nothing, but there's probably some difference in behavior that's going to happen between those two versions. Does Groovy, is there a document that summarizes the difference what's new in the new Groovy? There are lots of documents. So this one, maybe what we do is list that include references, include references to Groovy change logs. Yeah. Because that will help people read and understand for themselves. Could somebody maintains a repo of Groovy scripts that are available for people to download and use? There are several different ones, yes. Are those, is somebody testing those to make sure that they all still work? Good question. Not that I know of, that's, and I would be shocked if somebody did that just because the scripts aren't known to work even in their current state, right? The scripts are just offered, hey, this worked for me some time, no promise it will work for you. Right, okay. It could be something to put out to the community if you have one out there that you care about, you might want to test it. Right, this is a good thing for us to invite people, hey, here's this significant change coming, now's the time to test. Okay, so let's see, did we put, did I put the notes there? Oh, Groovy change logs, right, good, okay, good. Okay, next, restore support for symbolic links in the Jenkins home directory. This was just a bug that was introduced in 3.25 that we fixed in 3.26. Cool. And here we go, stapler now returns an informative error message when a request is made for an invalid adjunct. Somehow I'm prone to call that developer because users don't know what stapler is and don't actually care what stapler is. I'm not sure I know what an adjunct is either, so yeah. Right, exactly. Okay, so let's make a note on that one. Mark the stapler. Issue as a developer. Okay, any other changes we see we need to make? Are there any issues where the type is to do? Sorry, are there any issues with what? Where the type is mentioned as to do. Oh, oh, good question, very good question. So let's see. Okay, so this one we said skip change logs, skip change logs, skip change logs, skip change logs, skip change logs. So those are all correctly adjusted to skip the change log now. So I think we handled them, Dheeraj, good question. And what we'll do now is let's go invoke that and we're going to run the task that will refresh this thing. And by refreshing it then, if you'll remind me as we approach end of meeting we'll come look again to see that it applied the changes that we had made. Sure. All right, anything else on the PR review for the change log? So for submitting the PR at the end, the process is pretty simple, like in my local copy I need to make these changes and submit the PR, that's it, right? That's right, yes, exactly. Okay, so I think and from now, how many hours after should I send in PR? So the, yeah, good question. So the release is scheduled to, the release build is scheduled to complete in about 12 hours. And so, oh, thank you, I'm glad you mentioned that. We need to put an approved here. We're approving this because we've reviewed it and Dheeraj, are you willing to submit the correction? Yes, because in the coming weeks, I think I will be doing which I wanted to get it reviewed by you before we format it. Oh, good, very good, yes, okay. The updates after the release has been delivered. Good, okay. All right, so what will happen is tomorrow when I wake up I will likely, as soon as I've detected that the tag has been placed for this release, I will merge this pull request. And then Dheeraj, it's up to you. You let me know when you've got the revision. There's no big press for that, no crisis for that. If it needs to wait 24 hours for the corrections, that's okay, it's great if you can do it because then we make sure that you're comfortable doing the process even when I'm not reviewing the changes. Right, so that sounds good. Super, thank you. Release will be. If he submits the PR, I'll do it. Sorry. Yes, please make, go on. Go ahead, go ahead. So I will be submitting it within after 12 hours, right? That's when the build will be finished. Right, and you can deduce for yourself, is it time to submit it by looking at the Jenkins release? Releases page here, go to the tags. And when you see Jenkins dash 2.326 available in this tags list, that means you can go ahead and submit the change. Okay, nice. And we do see so many build errors sometimes. I see on IRC that you talk about it failed. So no, not all the time, sorry, sometimes. So should I need to know something about that if we were taking care of by somebody else? Given the permissions that are required to resolve those kinds of things, I think we'll have to leave it to somebody else. Just, it's a good idea that we may want to, we may want to, I wonder if you want to consider this, Dheeraj, there is the concept of a release lead for an LTS release. And you might consider, do you want to try becoming the release lead for one release? The next one is already locked down. It's Kathy Chan, but you could say, hey, I want to be the release lead for the February release. And then we could coach you through it here in Doc's office hours on what it means to be a release lead. So is this the kind of release where we have to do a lot of maths? No, no, this one, the one that you would be taking in February is almost always very, very small. The Dot3 release, the Dot3 release of an LTS is quite small. Okay, that sounds good to us. Yeah, you should. It was a lot of numbers. Yeah, you should definitely not volunteer to do the Dot1 release. That absolutely is the wrong place to do your first experience of a release lead. That is just plain and simply the wrong place to learn that. Yes, then it sounds good. And don't feel like you have to. It's just, it's an option for you if you're interested in that. Well, I want to, but I would like to have another session with you where you explain me some doubts that I'll be having after I observe Kathy's work. Absolutely, and that's a good thing for you to watch to see, hey, what does it take? Because there are some parts of it that are complicated and there are some parts of it that are rather advanced. So yeah. That's right, okay, sure, sounds good. All right, okay, so. Mark, is somebody going to be around next week to approve his PR? Yeah, there's, if I don't approve it or Tim Jacome doesn't approve it or Oleg Nanashiv doesn't approve it, between the three of us, somebody will see it. Okay. It's not that I'm disappearing from existence, but I don't, I'm trying to not do meetings and not do, trying to actually take some time off. You're gonna have grandchildren there, right? I actually tragically don't think so. That grandchildren's parents, I know the grandchildren's parents are doing terrible things like staying home. This is unacceptable. But they have ignored me. Apparently I no longer have any influence on that kind of thing, right? I don't know if they closed the airport out of Fort Collins. No, yeah, yeah, that kind of influence is not happening either. No, I'm not flying to Anchorage, Alaska in December. Sorry. Oh no. Oh no. If you really care about the grandchildren. Right, that's the way this is to put your money where your mouth is questioned. Thank you very much. That's good. Let's go on to our next topic. LTS Change Law. All right, so LTS Change Law is an upgrade guide. This is just a reminder that nothing needs to happen yet. This, the LTS release date is January 12, 2022. And the changes that I think the merch poll request, the release candidate poll request has already been submitted. So we could conceivably start the writing. And I may, before I disappear, start some and submit it and let you all review it next week during weekly, or let D'Roz let you review it asynchronously, not put it on anybody else, but just ask for some reviews of it and suggestions for improvements. Okay, all right. Next topic was how does CloudBees hire in India? And I am delighted to note, D'Roz, that CloudBees has apparently started hiring in India, just starting now. And Mark has no idea of the process that has been followed. But I promised that I would be able to do that. That's the thing followed. But I promised to connect with you separately and see what we can do about it. Because it was on my list anyway, to see if I think they want to do geographically, reasonably close to each other, and I'm not sure what their location is. Where are you located, D'Roz? What's your physical location? Mumbai, India. Mumbai, okay, great. Yes. And you asked, do they accept, you mentioned, do they accept, I think the classic phrase in India is freshers, do they accept people without experience? Yes, the fish is. Prior experience. And I would think that's not an issue in your case because you clearly already have prior experience, lots of it, and strong recommendation from me. So you may not have worked for anyone. I haven't done experience. Yeah, so that is an open topic. I'll bring it up with you separately. Okay. The crucial thing for me is I'm not sure if they're recruiting in Mumbai. So isn't it remote? I don't know. That's a part that when I was having discussions, a part I was hearing was they might be considering asking the people to co-locate so that they can accelerate the tutoring. Right, makes sense. But let me ask, it's a valid question and it's not just, well, there are multiple facets to our hiring process. So I've got to, I'll check with them and I'll let you know. Sure. Because I was going through the CUT CloudBees, LinkedIn pages, I saw people working there in their geography and I saw that mostly all of them I recognized from the GitHub. Like I've seen him, I've seen her, I've seen her. Oh, good, very good, okay. Yes, that's it from this topic. Okay, super. Next was how do I participate in Google Summer of Code? So Google Summer of Code will happen in, let's see, it starts basically in February slash March with project ideas and interactions with the community. The students submit and this year, it's not just students. So open to anyone in a specific age bracket, age group. I believe they require 18, you must be 18 in order to enter, but no longer a requirement that you must be at a university. Wow. So yeah, cool and exciting. So project ideas are submitted. Alyssa Tong is leading the effort. You can read about it on community.jankins.io. Yes, I saw her post. Great, and so let's see, where is that? Well, I guess I should just search. GSOC, here we go. Oh, now that's sad. Alyssa's post is not tagged GSOC, here we go. Okay, so we need to tag this correctly. GSOC, oh, there it is, there it is. That's the one I wanted, very good. So we can delete that, okay, there. Now it will be found. Okay, so this one gives you hints about, all right, what we're looking for now is organization admins, and then she's also submitted a request for project ideas. So organization admins, mentors, and Kristen has been a mentor in the past, I've been a mentor in the past. And we've got some, actually we've got some cool project ideas, one of the project ideas is documentation related. It's update and improve the code generator that generates the pipeline help. And there's all sorts of things that are good ideas to consider adding to that. You can read about those project ideas under Jenkins, Google Summer of Code. And if you have any ideas, you can also submit them yourself, like if you have any or other things. It does have to be code related, we kind of get away with this one because there is like a code component, but as long as there's, if you have ideas, there's never always use new ones or other things that could be helpful. Yes, totally. Yeah, so if we look at, let's see, where are the project ideas from 2021? They were, oh, 2021 project ideas. So last year's automatic specification generator for REST for the REST API and plugin installation manager tool improvements and pipeline step doc generator improvements. All three of those are at least of interest to me and any one of them will be a good candidate for a project idea. Now, the way, Dear Raj, the way Google Summer of Code works is the submitter submits their proposal for the project. So these are just suggestions or possible candidates. And then, but then the submitter submits a detailed plan that proposes, here's what I will do and here's what, how we will test and those kinds of things. And those detailed plans are then reviewed by the evaluators and the winners are selected and become Google Summer of Code participants. Yes, makes sense. Okay, so. You told me a new thing, like it's not even, there's not even a rule that they should be from a university because personally, I'm not enrolled into any university, I just graduated and I'm not planning to do any masters for this year at least. So I was wondering that ideal is it or not. And I think so. This is new. Yeah, it's like, don't worry, like this is the first year that they're decided to do this. So this was not how it was in the past. So that's like, it's like, it's like confusing. It's because like this is literally the first year that they're doing this. Exactly. Yeah. So is it going to be same way like for 2021 where they had more projects and reduce the timing of the period? And so as far as I understand, they're going to use the same schedule that they used. I haven't proven that yet for final, but so the schedule would work the same with expecting 20 hours a week of coding for a period of eight weeks divided into two four week segments or something like that. And so yeah, that's, I think that's still the plan. Okay, sounds good. Thanks. All right. Yeah, so the selection selected and I suspect and I suspect they select in late April or early May and then start community bonding for, if I remember right, isn't it two to four weeks of community bonding, Kristen? And then the project runs and I assume it will be in two phases again this year like it was last year. Right. I think the structure was fine and it's just they've wanted to expand it to multiple people or a wider pool of talent. Exactly, yeah. And well, one of the comments that Alyssa noted is sometimes they've seen a pattern in Google Summer of Code that students will contribute will win their position, contribute during Google Summer of Code and then disappear, never contribute again. And they worry that that's really not their objective. Their objective is to encourage ongoing participation in open source projects. So it's, I don't know how you assure that but I think that's their concern. So opening it more broadly, they hope will allow people who will continue to be contributors. Correct. Maybe they're students who are looking for a job and they end up getting hired by somebody who doesn't want to or isn't doing Jenkins or. Certainly, there are those kinds of interesting risks, right? Yeah. I mean, if we want to keep these people, the companies that are sponsoring it should watch the people and make them offer to be in Summer. Exactly, that's right. Yeah, the best way to retain someone in open source is to pay them to do open source. Yeah. Okay, so anything else on Google Summer of Code, Diraj? No, my main question is the answer. Thanks a lot. All right. So last topic and we've got just minutes left. So the modernizing a plugin blog post and tutorial continues to evolve. Special thanks to John Mark Meason. He is continuing as an explorer using the topic and he's been learning things and we're gathering them. I got feedback from Runesha contributor from CloudBees that, hey, the word modernize may not convey the message we want. And I was open to other suggestions. So plugin modernization for me was, that said told the story I wanted to tell, but tell me the rest of you. What do you think is if we called it plugin refresh or plugin renewal or plugin, I hesitate to use the word update because that's a very specific word in Jenkins. Suggestions, ideas. It's almost ownership. I mean, if you, if I adopt a plugin that doesn't currently have enough. An adopter. I may check it over and it may not need anything. But this is what I need to check for, right? Well, so, and I intentionally avoided the use of the, the, we, we dodged the word adopt because there are many things you can do without ever adopting the plugin. Right. And this, this contributor. Set of contributor tasks. Don't require that I adopt the plugin. I could do one of them. I could do three and walk away. Is it maintaining plugins? Yeah, that's a, that's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that one. I'm not sure I like it. I don't actually because I usually, I usually have, have a negative connotation for the word maintenance when it comes to software. Far too many people treat it as a bad thing. It's a nightmare for documentation too, but. But it's a valid statement. Yes. What we're talking about is keeping them maintained. Right. Exactly. This is not how to create a brand new plugin. This is how to maintain. Yeah. Good insight. Go ahead. I was thinking, like, is that going to be too intimidating. For people. To jump in and. Start working with. So, I don't know, like, because I hear like maintaining plugins. It's like, oh, it sounds intimidating. And it could accept that we've got. Here, let me show you the, I think I've shown you in the, in the past. Here's, here's what it looks like. So. This thing looks like this. And all it would, all it, what it is right now and what we would add to this is a series of snippets. Each one of them is. Only a little bit. And many of them include a video that. Right now I'm just saying, like the, would anyone even want to click on that section of the. Oh, oh, I see. If, if. We're not, we're not even like getting people to click on the modernize a plugin, but. I see. Right. So the idea is. If this is maintaining a plugin instead of modernize a plugin. Or maintain a plugin. You're worried that. Maintain may not be the thing they want to do. Right. Cause I wonder if that's something that. It implies that you already. Own the plugin. And you're just kind of looking to. Right. Being. Like. Good. Versus. Adopt a plugin. Yeah. But it's like adopt a plugin. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was like, well, it's like adopt. Well, it doesn't really work there either, right? Cause it's like, that's the whole. The page. Yeah. I was like, well, it's like adopt. Almost doesn't really work there either. Right. Cause it's like, that's the whole. The page where we have like, how do it? Like how to adopt a plugin where, you know, you become the main. Maintainer essentially. We're so many of the same words. We need the thesaurus, but. But yeah, it's like, it's interesting where. I'm not entirely sure. Modernize sounds like the old one has to be bad and old and crafty. And it may be. One that's very up to date now and just needs. But it's about to get. Get by the loss of Java eight or whatever. Yeah. What if. What if it were improve a plugin? Okay. Okay. So back to this, this story, create a plugin or improve a plugin. Is improved probably not nearly as intimidating and doesn't have a negative connotation like, oh, you need to modernize this ancient old thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can have you back yet. I had promised. Okay. So, so at least it's worth, it's worth considering. I'll roll it around with John Mark and with some others. Cool. I don't, it'd be fun to do an AB test. I just don't know how you would do an AB test to decide which one people would click on. Yeah. Maybe, maybe for two weeks I show it as improve and two weeks show it as modernize and we count the hit count and decide which one was better. Yeah. Yes. And I have one comment about the plugin refresh topic as well. Okay. As mentioned, so it sounds nice. The refresh word is of course so fresh and sounds good. It also means that there are some things like a refresher courses of a topic. So if I talk about devops refresher, it means it will be a small summed up video on that. So if it's a plugin refresh. So I hope people don't mistake it as a plugin refresher blog where they talk about this is what a plugin is and et cetera. But it sounds good. Of course, just one of my concerns. That might be due. That might be the case if it was named plugin refresher, not plugin refresh. Well, but you're, you're, you're certainly right. There's, there's a worry that there might be a misconstruing of, of refresh to be a course where you take to, to remind yourself of topics. And that's not what this is. Yeah. Right. Right. Okay. Good. Yeah, I think it proved maybe. And refresh me sounds funny to me too. It sounds like, you know, my favorite soft drink. Yeah. Everybody take volleyball on the beach or whatever. Exactly. That's it. Beach volleyball with a Jenkins plugin. That's the. I am outside in the sun. Good weather. I like that. That's okay. No, I'm not going to put beach volleyball with the Jenkins plugin, but all right, great. I'm thinking that people who really like each volleyball are the sort who like to improve plugins in their spare time. That's just a rough. That may be my bias. Well, yeah. Okay. Good point. And nevermind. Next subject. Anything else on, on that topic. Okay. So we had set ourselves the goal is at risk. Where the goal was. Maintain. The, the contributor persona. Before Christmas. And I apologize. It's, I'm not ready. So, but I might make it. But I'm not ready for it. I'm not ready for it. I'm not ready for it. I'm not ready for it. I definitely won't because tomorrow is my 38th wedding anniversary. And I will not be doing Jenkins things tomorrow. Okay. Because we want to have a 39. Exactly. Because I want my wife to love me even after the anniversary. That's right. She should think. We want you alive on. I think it's really sweet, but I have a feeling you don't want to mess with her at some level. I like that. That phrasing, I would quote that. That's very good. I have, I have one question. Is this thing is huge. Is, is the only way to have a goal. Do we have pieces of it that could be released sooner than other pieces or do we need it all? Or. Sure, sure, I think, I think we do get this out. We could put a bunch of the things in as work in progress or something. Well, and I wouldn't even, Well, and I wouldn't even I wouldn't even put them in as work in progress. I would just leave them out of the initial pull of the initial PR and and go with something small because let's let's take a look at the topics right if we go back to our topic list here. Right, we did and if we just took the first the first category or the first you know first simple thing. This one is probably those seven or eight is already a reasonable thing to be useful. Right and and that that is useful and largely done. So without restructuring the navigation without all sorts of other improvements, those things would be helpful. And then maybe we don't have to push this goal off we can you know we just cut it down and we say part one of right. Exactly. Yeah, so here's step one and then onward we go because there are some of these are very involved, very valuable but involved and others are trivial and not that involved at all. Right. Okay. So I'll take that and take that under advisement and see if I can't get it in. Yeah. Yeah, take your time. All right. That's that's all that I had for today. Any other topics. Yep. Okay. Last thing. When I said that the build fails all the time I didn't mean in a better. Oh, no, no, don't do. I just don't worry about it. It's you your observation was exactly correct. There are times when the infrastructure does not do what we want it to do. And somebody has to diagnose that and chase it out. No shame in that. Just didn't mean in general way. And it was certainly not taken in any ill way that was that was an absolutely honorable statement and it was quite accurate. So that's great. All right, I'm not taking I'm not really off so if you need anything ping me, I will be around. Sure. Sure. Definitely. On guitar right. Pardon. Make it make what's your preferred communication channel make anything that comes through.