 From Hollywood the CBS radio workshop I was the Duke Duke had to be the baddest one You know when I was the Duke see if anybody went to get in the gang and they thought they could with me Well, then they could be Duke see CBS radio presents the CBS radio workshop dedicated to man's imagination the theater of the mine William Conealy speaking You're about to hear an experiment in communication Communication between a juvenile delinquent and you the experiment your reaction Unless you are a law enforcement officer a social worker or a criminal yourself Your knowledge of crime is pretty much limited to what you read in the newspapers and with each new outburst of hoodlumism Each new outrage against public decency you the law-abiding citizen probably cluck in dismay murmur that something should be done about it and turn to the sports or the society page We too think something should be done about it and perhaps the first thing might be for the law-abiding citizen to meet the criminal Only chances are he wouldn't talk to you He couldn't talk to you because you don't talk the same language and because he doesn't trust you But he'll talk to another criminal. He'll relax with a fellow ex-con He has in what you're about to hear The boy we call Bobby alias the Duke and the man who interviews him are friends They serve time together in San Quentin penitentiary the interviewer for forgery Bobby for Grand Theft Auto For obvious reasons their real identities are withheld But their words come to you with their full knowledge and consent because you see they too think Something should be done about it especially Bobby alias the Duke who at the age of 23 has already served 10 years of his life in Los Angeles juvenile hall Sheriff's office camp 5 the Preston School of Correction and San Quentin prison twice Here's the Duke story in his own words How were you when you first was they got in trouble? Well, I guess I was around 10 10 or 11 something like that. What was the kind of what do you do? Well, see in my neighborhood down there, why? It was during wartime and all the broads were knocked up, you know, and they were overseeing everything and nobody had much money You know living on government pensions So we used to go into the markets and stuff and we used to steal butter and things like that You know, yeah, we should sell it to the people in the neighborhood. See, but they know yours totally They come out. Well, yeah, man. I mean we used to sell a pound of butter for almost nothing. They had that So like I say we sold it all the time and this this old lady we used to sell it to her too You know, yeah, so one day she buys about I don't know pound two pounds something like that And the first thing you know the cops are out rousing us. Oh, yeah, she haven't turned it Yeah, man after she bought the pound or two pounds of butter, whatever she bought Well, then she turns this in you see but I mean she waited till she bought it. She said well the cops say to you Well, you know, they give us this bit about the you know We're gonna send you up and all this and you can't go into supermarkets and steal and the manager's pression charges and all They take you home Well, you see at the time my mother and father were done Sand egg on so they had to wait till they get back from the weekend. You see what happened here, baby Well, you know my mother my mother was very understanding, you know what I mean, you know and But my old man he was Well, he was he was just an asshole. That's all that was to me. Did you play a big part when he? Oh, yeah, you know the first tells me they say Wow, I'm gonna leave these boys to you now you take them home and you take care of them See, I mean that's almost like give them written permission to kill us, you know what I mean What do you do? What do they do when you to get home? Well, man We got home, you know and and the old lady was sort of blubbering, you know everything and and the old man says Well, you got them hoodlums and whammy hits this one, you know And then he takes off his belt saying he starts beating us with it, you know and only beats us with a buckle end You know and he cut us up pretty bad So after he gets tired of that game he lays down on the couch, you see and he's sleeping So me my brother we gonna bedroom We pick up this little baseball bat they'd bought us, you know about three foot long something like that And I hit him right in the head of it. Oh, I am hard as I could you know, yeah So then he gets up you see And for our punishment, I mean after he built this round a while he takes us out in the front lawn He makes us motor lawn. It's about two in the morning. We're mowing along from two till about 4 30 You see, I mean, you know, that's his idea. You heard the old story like there's a right and there's a wrong Then there was his way. You see, I mean, you know, and that was all the two that would you ever do your fear your hate towards him Well influenced in your trouble your head. I mean, did that cause you to go out and raise hilly? Yeah, because a lot of time I run against people that were just exactly like him, you know Run across cops that would like him. You know, they were always right. You see what I mean And I run across different type of people, you know teachers and so forth and it was the same type, you know The dad Bobby refers to was actually his stepfather But that made little difference to a boy of 10 who found that the hostile world began in his own home He was the only dad Bobby ever knew And how about mother The psychologist calls this kind of attitude ambivalence Well, I don't know what the hell was the matter with the old lady I guess after my old man died she sort of just went goofy or something because To me, you know to stay with that jackpot for as long as she did I don't understand Listen, listen, I always had all the love and everything in the world I mean my mother always loved me. I mean she wasn't home all the time to love me. You know what I mean But I mean she loved me. You never buy anything when you're a kid in a bicycle or anything there No, man. I only ever bought me was trouble. That's all She wasn't home all the time to love me. He belts us with the buckle end Such was Bobby's home sweet home So what about the other side of a young boy's world school? What would you expect? Well, I didn't stay in school very long. So I didn't do too well Well, did he kick you out of school or what? Yeah, well, they had a teacher in school and it was a lady teacher Her name was miss pendergassing. Yeah Well, we used to call him as pain in the ass, you know, oh, yeah So one morning I'm walking down the hall saying I say to her I say good morning, mr. Spendergass, you know Well, I sort of you know say it fast and sort of slur like you see like it like maybe it sounds like miss pain in the ass So she says well well, she says there's the other half of the hoodlum brothers, you know Well, I mean, so I belted her you see what I mean, you hear me? Yeah, but I mean, you know, my mother always told me I mean, we didn't have to take that from anybody. You know what I mean So then a vice principal calls me down to the office and tells me what I am and what I eat and so forth And he kicks me out of school. Well, I mean, I told him I told him I said, listen, what kind of a teacher is that that calls you the other half of the hoodlum brothers Huh? I mean, she couldn't say good morning. Bobby. She has to say something like that. You see what I mean Crazy mixed up kid You bet he was But if they wouldn't teach him at home and they couldn't teach him at school There was another institution of learning the streets Morning gangs in yeah, we had what they called a little wee street boys thing. How was that and uh What's it was a gang of us kids in the neighborhood, you know, was that a warrior, right? Yeah And I was the duke. You know duke had to be the baddest one, you know, and I was the duke see Did you enjoy that kind of position? Yeah, man I mean, I had a lot of prestige, you know I mean if anybody wanted to get in the gang and they thought they could whip me well, then they could be duke See would your boys fight the war right there in the yeah, man We used to have a ball there, you know, we had a lot of guineas in our neighborhoods, you know And uh, so we had this one the Sally was his name and and he used to belong what they call a butcher boys thing Oh, yeah So they gather on one side of the street. He was Mussolini's cousin or something Yeah, he really was and he used to he used to stand on a fence with all his boys around him You know and he used to say Viva la Mussolini see So with I'd stand across the street, you know what my boys and I'd say Mussolini, you know, we'd charge him Yeah, I wouldn't meet her right in the middle of the street, you know how you how you prove yourself during the war Yeah, man. I mean we kicked the shit on them boys. You can believe that you thought that was your way of showing them That's right. Then I was the duke scene And as far as your life sort of life you've lived in that you didn't feel any special shame about it or any guilt or any No, man, I couldn't you see I mean I I was the leader. I had to I had to be Well, the kids you led I mean they you were finding kids that you thought didn't belong I mean you ever feel that you like to tell a kid don't get in this kind of Life or did you try to tell a kid to stay away from this kind of Hell no, that wasn't matter with I mean, I used to take care of my boys, you know And what what they learned they was for their own good. I mean right today. I bet they don't regret it You see, uh, I was every real bad trouble with Mexico. Yeah, that was that was when I got the 12 stitches My head well see we had annex one two and three, you know and a whites and different people used to live in one And Mexicans in two and the color people live in three you see So We used to go to it wasn't so crowded when we play pool over there, you know, you know It's what they call the recreation hall you see recreation. Oh, yeah, we'll have here Well, the recreation hall. That's where we used to get our marijuana and stuff, you know, he's okay You're focused on yeah, well not too much because it made me sick a lot. You know, would you feel his hand before me marijuana? No, man, marijuana itself isn't it you go for marijuana? You want a bigger kick scene then you go on the horse or something, you know Hey, we're gonna have to know man. I never tried horse. I couldn't see the main line Yeah, well, I mentioned once the long time ago. This is rough. Do you have there in the Mexicans? You had some rough times over there the pool or is it over there one day playing pool On a back table. See, you know And all of a sudden these three or four Mexicans come in they and I'm about to shoot a shot And this one grabs me says you've been playing long enough, you know So I says, well, I'm gonna piss up a rope dad and when I'm tired of playing then I'll tell you, you know So he says, uh, he says just cut out. You know, he tells me, you know, and I say You know, I tell him, you know, go to hell. You know what I mean? So he just stands there saying, you know, he's got these bad asses behind him, you know So my buddy says, well, maybe you don't understand English, you know So he says you tell him in mexican, see So I tell him, I say, uh, palomela vetica, you know, means like, uh Like shove off asshole or something like that. You know what I mean? So then they take off same So we play a couple more games, you know And right as you walk out the door into the yard, you know You hang up your pool stick, see and man, I look out the door and there's about six or seven of them out there, see Yeah So I thought we ain't go for one out, you know nice to get out in the yard and maybe get some help See from the rest of the green goes, you know And so they got a big fence there, you know Where this guy used to keep his bottles and stuff in, you know, so we can steal them You know, and I figured if we get our back to the fence, you know what I mean? Why then See, we'll be all right, you know Well, the last thing I remember I was running for the fence, you know And I hit a couple of them with a pool stick and And we got chills Yeah, in the back of the head, yeah What's that happen? Do you think it's a hospital? Yeah, man, I had 12 stitches in my head And how do you folks feel about that? I don't know, but when I woke up in the hospital, there was my buddy laying beside me It was cut up something awful What's your first how they feel about it? Did your dad feel sorry for you finally? You hear y'all banged up? Yeah, he felt sorry for it. I'll tell you how he felt sorry for me, see After they banished me up, my head was all wrapped up in gauze and stuff, you know And so they come and got us and they took us home, you know So right away he starts the same shit, you know, the little hoodlum act, you know So he starts hitting me I got 12 stitches in my head and he's belting me around He don't hit me in the head, of course, you know I mean, you know, he's a big hearted thing What did you tell him, uh, that you tried to defend yourself? Yeah, I told him, I told him what happened And he says, well, you got no right over there anyway, you should be home soon So, yeah, you were wrong on this fight while then, huh? Yeah, I mean, I'm wrong in defending myself You can't see him since? No, no, if I ever see him again, man, I'll have to go back for a long time, you see Because I'll kill him, yeah Gang fights, marijuana This is kid stuff There's a lot more for a growing boy to learn And there's schools where skills can be quickly acquired and lessons learned that last a lifetime There's the Preston School of Correction Oh, man, Preston, you know, it wasn't like grade school or nothing, you know what I mean? Taking a lot of guys there that you're supposed to only be 20 or 21 While they were 29, you know, 28 Was it pretty rough there? Sure it was rough, man Like the first day I'm in, you know, I get my ward and I go down and hit the sack, see And so I'm laying there straight in my sack away and this guy comes over and he pats me on the ash, you know And he says, uh, he says, well, well, he says a tender fish, you know So I says, listen, man, just keep your hands off me, I says And he says, oh, he says a badass, you see Well, I mean, I had to prove myself right then, you see what I mean? Because if I didn't the whole rest of the time that I'm there I have nothing but bullshit, you see what I mean? I know So I kicked him in a nut, see And he went down and when he did, I booted him in the head a couple times You see, and from then on out, no trouble to talk to me about it You feel pressing to help you anyway? Dude, I mean, it's called a pressing school of correction To correct you Yeah, it taught me one thing, man It taught me that, uh, that I once again was Duke, you know what I mean? And that I was, uh, respected, you know And then I took care of these people and it cost them their dessert And, you know, they used to do favors for me Obviously society would ask you to help you to correct you from as far as society Society, yeah, I don't know It helped me, all right, I guess I made Clinton afterward and that helped me The Duke, uh, has graduated from preparatory school, presumably with honors He's ready for the university He can't fail to make it He's been trained for it Well, what was it that got you into that, Clinton? Well, we used to do a lot of joint riding, you know what I mean? We'd go out and pick up a car and ride around for a while So I must crack that key to number one No, man, we used to have hot wire, you see, like forged, you know Why they got an ignition setup where You can stick a quarter of a nickel or something under there and it jumps the wires for you, see Oh, yeah How many cars did you do? Not so Well, see, one night, like, but you know what Compton is down here? Yeah, well, from Compton to Long Beach, we took 23 cars one night This is the hell of a night Yeah, man, we used to drive them two or three blocks, you know, we'd get out And then we'd take another one, you see How'd they catch you? Well, they didn't catch us on that particular cape or that I sold a couple, see, and they were sort of hot on me then, you know And then, you know, a couple more days I'll just crack that, yeah Blush that for a picture of another Well, no, see, we used to have a fence down there, you know Oh, I see To say, like, a car was worth maybe $600, $700, we'd sell it for $50 or $60, you know what I mean Oh, I see And then you'd file the engine number off and paint the car And you'd write your racket on it He made money, you guys didn't make money, he made the money, you know Yeah, he made the loot, yeah, and we took the chance That's right Well, how'd you, when you got knocked off and went to court, did the judge have much Patience with you or did you make San Quentin a little big You know what the judge told me, man? When I went to court, he says, he says, uh Now, he says, I want you to look at yourself, he says He says, I don't want you to think of the courtroom or the jury He says, I want you to look at yourself He says, you're 17 years old He says, you've been in camp five He says, you've been in Preston He says, you've got nothing, you've got a record as long as my arm He says, now, what kind of a life have you led? I mean, you know, he more or less just, he pulled like my father would say, you know what I mean He tore me down right in front of the whole thing And I couldn't hardly protect myself Because then whenever I started to say something, he'd tell me to shut up You see what I mean? The quality of mercy is not strained It is an attribute of God himself And earthly power doth then show like us gods When mercy seasons justice What do you think of Quentin when you got there? Oh, man, that shook me up something I was lying, lying Like everybody has it to say You know what I mean? Like, uh, I don't know, it's hard to explain Like, like guys used to tell me when they were in the war, you know They'd pile out of one of these little boats that used to pull up your scene And man, here's all these guns and everything firing at them Say, well, we didn't have guns firing, man But I mean, you know, when you see them big gates and you see queues down there, you figure Well, this is it, Jack I mean, you know, this is, you've You've done had it, huh? Yeah, this is it Well, uh, when you got inside there, how did you find the place after you got inside the walls? A lot of the big yard and the people you met I mean, I mean, it surprised me You know what it's like, it was like coming back to my neighborhood almost You know what I mean? I met a lot of guys in it, I knew A lot of guys I graduated from Preston with And I met a lot of real fine people in there I mean, people that publicly are branded killers and so on, do you see? Do you have any special friends in there or any special buddy you talk to or anybody to help you, anybody? You got any buddy there that can kind of give you a look at yourself? Yeah, there was one guy that really helped me there Who's that? That was Ben You remember the big Ben? Yeah, the mayor, yeah That was all right Yeah Well, I'll tell you How was Ben anyway? Ben, he must be 54, 55 or something I know that He'll never tell you something that's crazy, huh? Yeah, man, he told me about when, well, it was the last capery pulled Yeah Well, you want to daily me? Yeah, yeah, that's right He was doing his bank job then And it seems that they pulled it off real nice And as he was backing out of the bank with the loot, do you see? This public-minded asshole Imagine this comes up and grabs Ben when Ben's got the rod And he grabs him around the neck, see? And he tells Ben, he says, this is it And he starts calling cop, cop, cop And so Ben tells him, listen, man, he says I mean, I didn't hear this from Ben I got it from one of the boys that was with him, it was all so uncute And Ben tells him, says, listen, man, I ain't got a lot of time to play games He says, you let go of me He says, I'm going to blow your head off, see? So what does the guy do? He keeps hanging on and he keeps hollering And Ben tells him one more time the same thing, you know? I haven't got much time, man And the guy keeps hanging on and keeps hollering, see? So Ben turns around and he blows the guy's head off Killed him right there, yeah, right in the spot Um, it'll make a laugh, of course, on that, didn't it? Yeah, yeah, he got life on that How do you feel about that? Well, I don't know how Ben felt, but I felt there was a bad break for Ben It really was, you know? But I mean, he was doing real well for himself And then all of a sudden this guy, you know How about the poor guy got shot? What, the poor guy? He was an asshole The break for him, too, wasn't it? Well, I mean, he made his own break, you know? If you run up and you grab a guy That's got a gun, man I mean, you figure something's going to happen to you, right? I suppose so So, I mean, let's face it, the guy was, he was an asshole, that's all Well, I mean, do you feel that the belly would look that way? I mean, after all, the guy was trying to say something he felt was wrong I mean, he was saving money in the bank He didn't save no money He didn't save nothing, man In fact, he lost a lot You see, he got his head blown off I mean, Ben got away with the loot and spent it before they ever caught him You see, I mean, his name is probably on a wall Some place or something, you know what I mean? Well, it was a bad break for Ben, I really want to Thus logic as taught at San Quentin There are other lofty subjects on the curriculum Philosophy and morality, for instance Well, how about when you stole, I mean, you did a lot of heisting I mean, do you ever feel guilty about it or bad about taking money from somebody? Well, that's the way I look at it I mean, like there used to be some kids, you know what I mean? They're in my block, see, and they had something I didn't have it, you know what I mean? So I used to take it from them Well, I could go home and get more, you see So, I mean, did it hurt him any? No, it didn't hurt him, it taught him something See, just stay away from me when they had something Because if they did, I would take it, you know what I mean? They say we all have a conscience or it bothers us that it would bother you No, man, I don't think it's people's conscience that bothers us What a conscience is, a conscience is fair, you see A fair that you're going to get caught and have to do some time for it You know, that's what a conscience is You didn't have that fear, says the word No, man, I mean, you give that conscience shit It ain't conscience, Dad, it's fear of getting caught, believe me Barron's quitting the guys you met in there I mean, do you feel quitting was a experience for you? I mean, did you learn anything in there, says the word? Yeah, man, I learned a lot in there I learned that, like Ben used to tell me If you're going to be a successful thief Play the game by yourself, you see what I mean? I mean, because you, I mean, you can either squeal on yourself or that's it, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's right, I've heard that, I've heard that from you most of the time And I also learned, man, if you're going to ever pull something, you know, never would have gone or anything If you get the feeling you want to go back to what all the guys do, they get this feeling of frustration Yeah, man, you call it frustration, call it anything you want I mean, a lot of times it hit me Did you have a hard time enjoying it, Tom? Well, I've done some hard time, you know, like Christmas How about self-time? How about yourself? Yeah, self-time is a bad time, man I mean, around Christmas and so forth, you know But listen, one thing, you know, like you can lay in a pad at night and you can say to your friend You can say, listen, man, when I get out, I'm going to have me a new car I'm going to have me a fine broad and fine clothes, you know I'm going to have money, you see I mean, you can tell them that, you know what I mean? And then he in turn can say to you, well, I'm going to have this or that And you've got to believe one another because you're laying right there in a cell, you see I mean, it's a big dream, man, a dream that you build up while you're in there, you know what I mean? Are you better off there some time you felt that you were outside? Yeah, in fact, I was a lot better off, you see, because I had three squares And I had all the clothes I could wear No, man, it wasn't a holiday, but it was a thing, I mean, in my particular case There's a lot of guys that have done a lot of hard time. I was lucky I had it nice, you see In fact, I've had a lot nicer up there than I've had on the outside It's like that at every educational institution There are some students who stay on year after year Who prefer the security of the campus to the doubtful opportunities of a hostile world And this is especially true when the institution is a state penitentiary And the student is a marked man in the outside world When I first got out, you know, we got, like, done an employment office They have people, you know, to take care of you know, so they send me out to a gas station, see So I go out there and I say to the guy, say, uh, I hear you need some help, see He says, yeah, that's right. He says I need help real bad He says, you have any experience? And I says, yeah, I had about uh, two and a half, three years experience He says, we're at nice as well. I said, I used to work on a pool up in San Quentin He says, jeez, he says, you know, he says, why, why don't you call back in about a week? He says, or two weeks, you know, yeah, the lousy bastard, he had $20 in the till, you know what I mean? And he wanted to protect it What shall we do now with Bobby Ilias the Duke? Graduate of San Quentin, philosopher, moralist, accomplished thief Write him off as a bad risk Forget him as a social failure No, let's listen to him for a moment more I want to ask you about something that everybody else has asked about and preached about and writes about And has opinions about this idea of doing a lot of linguistics that we see kids going in the joint More and more each day, the courts are kind of jammed with kids. What do you think about it? Well, yeah, I'll tell you, you said it right there, they write about it and they preach about it And it's on television, it's on radio and it's on everything, man But that's all they do, you know what I mean? You see, I mean, they don't do anything about it, you know? Like you went on to my old neighborhood down in Watts around Juniper Street, you know? And uh, down there, what do they got down there? They got nothing, man, they ain't got a part to piss in, see? But you go to Beverly Hills and here's some punk, got a swimming pool in his backyard And he got a sports car out in the front yard And he's got bicycles for his little brothers and bicycles for his little sisters, you know? That's where they put a youth center, see? They don't put it down in Juniper Street, you know what I mean? They put it up in Beverly Hills, see? I mean, they need it up there Well, how about these, you know, if people say, well, I was raised on this one, I was picked around as a kid Yeah, here I am, I'm making good money, I haven't gone to prison, how about people like You have the big success story, Wynchel and Eddie Cannon Yeah, yeah, yeah, Walter Wynchel, yeah Like Al Jolson Yeah, I heard, yeah, I heard Walter Wynchel and who were the worst of the slums? Yeah, let's see now, let me think now, Walter Wynchel and Eddie Cannon And uh, oh yeah, Al Jolson, you named, right? Yeah, well that's three, see? Now man, I can name, I can name 400 right here in five minutes That are still in the joint that were raised in the slum, you see what I mean? I mean, you named three and I can name three million that didn't make it You think it's the environment of the streets that we're born, that makes a difference a lot Sure, man, because you ain't never got a chance, you see what I mean? If you take a little white boy named Smith and then you take a little colored boy named Smith I mean, that little white boy is going to get much more breaks, you see man? I mean, like a lot of kids in my neighborhood, their folks were from Oklahoma So, so therefore they're okies, you see? Or maybe their mother, father is colored, you know? So therefore they're niggers, you see what I mean? The public don't give them a chance, man Well, do you advise a kid now that he's grown up to try and go straight into it? Listen, man, it doesn't even if the kid didn't go straight, it's if the public will give them a chance, you see what I mean? It's if the public will give him a chance Well, will you? The forger who interviewed the Duke is still writing, not bad checks anymore, but radio and television scripts And the Duke is still interested in motors, especially the motor of the beer truck he's driving to support himself and his young bride Both men have paid their debt to society to the public Will the public give them a chance? Only time and you can tell The CBS radio workshop has presented I Was the Duke A Portrait of a Juvenile Delinquent with William Canealy as narrator and produced in Hollywood by William N. Robson Next week from New York the workshop brings you the big event an account of the fateful day in the history of man when the law of averages stopped operating Every Sunday evening current events come into sharper focus as prominent Washington personalities are interviewed by a battery of top flight reporters on the CBS public affairs feature Face the Nation Here, Face the Nation over most of the same stations tonight Stay tuned for suspense which follows immediately over most of these same stations