 And so good morning, good afternoon and good evening, everyone, wherever you are now, we are in Europe, different time zones actually. I am in Italy, I am Paola Corti and I am the Open Education Community Manager at Spark Europe, working within the European Network of Open Education Librarians to make open education, in this case, the default at European level. And together with me, we have some colleagues here. I'm happy to share this presentation with Monique Schautsen from the Netherlands, who is greeting now, Celine Penion from Ireland, and Christophe Hermine again from Ireland, and Marta Bustillo too from Ireland. We should have had also a great colleague of ours, King Azziak from Poland, with us today, she did a great job together with us to create this presentation and mostly the activities that are behind it. But unfortunately she was unable to join us today, so, Kinga, you're always with us. As far as possible, and if you all agree, we would like not to share our presentation during this session, because we prefer to see faces and human beings behind the screens actually. Please count on the fact that our presentation is already available in SCAD in our session page, and I'm sure that someone is going to paste a link in the chat now, so you can have it ended. What are we sharing with you today? What we are going to share today is our experience at the European level for sure, with academic librarians who are working together to build capacity with their peers and with my support when I can, in order to make open education the default and mainly in order to implement as far as possible the UNESCO ERA recommendation at European level. So for those of you who are outside Europe, this is a different perspective, and for those of you who are from Europe, you are welcome to join our network if you are academic librarians. A couple of words about the ANOEL. The ANOEL was founded in 2018. Actually, it happened during an open education conference. It was the OE Global Conference in Thiel Delft in the Netherlands, and some academic librarians came together and thought about creating this network from scratch. Now we have 85 members from 24 different countries around Europe. We are covering almost half of European countries. We are many, I have to say, and what happens in the ANOEL is that we work together and we share and we collaborate. Those are our three keywords, being together, sharing and collaborating. And that's what happened also with the people in the room today with me, because we started at the beginning of this year to think about some activities that can support more actively academic librarians in building the groundwork, I would say, around open education when both in places and the libraries where something was already ongoing, but mostly in places where open education is not in the picture yet. And that's what we are trying to do, helping each other, sharing experiences, and also building tools that can be reused by librarians for sure at European level, but also everywhere else because they are shared with open licenses as you can easily imagine. That's what we are doing today with you. We are willing to share with you some of the experiences that we are having together. And it's not only about the outputs that we are going to share some of them already and you will know about them during the session. Some others are on their way. Some of them need to be finalized. Some of them need still a little bit of thinking. Some others need hands to be finalized. But what we are willing to share also is the landscape of the NOL, the context that we are living together and the welcoming environment that we are trying to build for each other so that everyone can really feel welcome, at the level of knowledge they have around open education and whichever attitude they have in sharing from the beginning or joining in later on. We are people. So what happens is that we all went through the pandemic. We never met in person yet and we are all willing to do it as soon as possible, but it never happened yet. We are just working at a distance and we are doing our best to support each other, which means that along the way today, we are going to share also what happened here and there when people were not able to attend or they were overloaded by work or overloaded by life. And that's what happened so far. And I would start with sharing something about the experiences that members are giving to each other. And I would leave the floor to Monique Schoutzen, who was our first NOL member under the spotlight and she's going to tell you what this means. But she also became a member of this group in order to have other members under the spotlight. So Monique, the floor is yours. Okay, thank you. Yes. I'm the organizer of the practitioners in the spotlight sessions. We've had two so far. So it was me who broke the ice and it was a bit stressful to do because I'm not a native speaker so as you can hear. But I got the message across and the spotlight sessions are half an hour of introducing yourself. So, and then a Q&A session of another half an hour. And it's very important to introduce ourselves to the group, because we, as Paula said, we haven't met each other in real life so it's good to know each other's background and from the two sessions we had. We can already see that we are from very different backgrounds. So yeah, that's an interesting part of those sessions. We're all librarians but we are from different countries in Europe. So we have different levels of education in the open education. So different points of view and different accelerations, etc. In November the eighth, we will have our third session. My colleague, Sylvia Moes from the Netherlands. The second speaker was from Spain, Gemma Santos Hermosa. Well, it's just like here being together and show our faces. We're not robots, we are human beings and if you know someone's background you can better discuss each other because we all have different talents, languages and backgrounds. So, I hope I have given you some background, but the next speaker will give some more view of our activities. So, I think I hope you understand the concept. Thank you Monika. Thank you Monika. I think that I would just add another information for you. What happens in those webinars is that we have a webinar session live within the NOL network in this case, but then all our webinars are recorded and they are recorded in our NOL YouTube channel. Yeah, I put the link in the chat now. Thank you Monika. So the idea is that within the webinar, the environment is friendly, informal, everyone can ask questions, etc. And the idea is to share what we create together. Also, thanks to the wonderful questions that member ask each other with the larger community. And thank you Monika. And if you have any kind of questions, please just interrupt us and ask them. You are more than welcome to do that or write them in the chat and we will try to take care of them one by one immediately. Moving from the NOL members to the people that are advocating around open education at European level, but are not librarians. Another activity that that we are developing thanks to the great efforts done by Christopher Min who is here in the room and thank you Chris for that is to invite open education champions to be interviewed by our librarians. And again, this activity, as you can easily see, shifts the focus from the from inside of the librarians environments and activities to the people interacting with them. So all stakeholders and Chris is going to tell you more about this. So Chris, the floor is yours. Thanks. Thanks, Paola. And thanks everyone for being here. So yeah, so it's the project manager for the OE champions series of interviews and Paola explained that the idea is to get key OE advocates and actors and these could be students, teachers, pedagogues, practitioners to talk about the work that they're doing in an interview format with a librarian. And sometimes that will be a librarian that they've worked with on projects. So, so for example, Celine here was one of our first interviewers and did a great job interviewing one of our champions Catherine Cronin who looks here in Ireland. And so, yeah, it's an exciting project and there's a couple of outputs from it so basically we get the interview going we conducted over Zoom and then there's a couple of outputs which includes the YouTube video of the interview that goes up onto the YouTube channel and then a web text version of the interview that goes up on a website which is called Open Scholar Champions and Paola has just shared the link. So if you see that web page is basically three columns and two of them have been populated already there's open data champions and open access champions were the middle column that right now is blank. It's open education champions and so when we have all of our interviews together that column is going to be an amazing resource with all kinds of, you know, inspiration and stories and dialogue about the open space so it's a really exciting project we're kind of in the middle of it right now. It is a work in progress but we've done about a half dozen interviews we have a few more scheduled on a few more in the works those that we've done in a kind of a post production process. We're not doing anything too fancy just adding a couple of an intro and outro. We're kind of making sure the subtitles are in good shape. And so forth so so we're looking at a completion date of mid December so with any luck at that time we'll launch a really special resource that will be of use for people in Europe, people around the world. So that's that's about it I think it's it's it's it's a great project I'm really excited to be involved with it. Thank you Chris also for your enthusiasm. Just another thing that we might want to add to this is that, as we said about the under the spotlight webinars. Also in this case what we are trying to do. And it's not always easy is to find champions from all European countries as far as possible we are willing to cover all the countries that we have. This is not a secondary in our everyday work because, as you can easily imagine having different languages, native languages, and having different legal system education system, and everything is ongoing in Europe in order to put all those different systems talk to each other and have consistency in between the education path. Well, we are still in the process for that, and a lot of work to be done. So having those champions bringing forward the perspective of different countries is really key for us. And those the same is that works for the members, the academic librarians that Monique described, they are sharing their national views, and we are at very different levels in Europe, according to open education developments so it's interesting to see this this this completely crazy picture that we are building and putting together. Thank you Chris. So, another step that we are trying to do and it's on his way. And I would leave the floor to Martha to see you on this one is to develop an open learning path for European librarians because if we think about all the librarians that are not familiar with open education yet. We want them on board we want them in our, in our scenario we want them not only involved the one day maybe Indian oil but first of all in open education to be great advocates in the fields. They're everyday life when they serve different stakeholders, students, teachers, institutions at the larger and also in most many cases. All citizens. Okay, so Martha, the floor is yours now. Thank you for all that. My name is Martha bustillo I am the digital learning librarian at the library of University College Dublin. And I'm originally Spanish although I have lived in Ireland for many years. And for me it's really exciting to be part of the email network, because I am very interested in open education. But I don't feel like I am in a very kind of advanced level about knowing about open education, knowing how to create open educational resources, and all of that. And when I, when I discovered the network and I got the invitation to join I was incredibly excited because I thought, this is an opportunity to not just kind of lurk from the sidelines but to actually contribute to something that I care passionately about. And so, when power mentioned the possibility of creating and a learning path for open education librarians. I immediately wanted to volunteer because, because I was talking to many colleagues from University College Dublin library, who were interested in this area, but needed to know a lot more. And I was thinking, well, what can we do to make this path a lot easier. So I worked with mostly Celine and Kinga and Chris, and to decide on which areas are areas that librarians want to get involved in, and that they need to kind of upscale really quickly. So we try and identify a series of resources that are that are already out there, and that would be useful for those of us interested in this area. And so we, we started thinking about how we could go about this. But for the moment, the simplest thing to do would be to create an infographic, and which would lay out this path, and we identified three key areas that we thought would be really important to focus on. One would be finding and evaluating OER. The second one would be licensing and copyright. And the third one would be much more hands on kind of developing and sharing open educational resources. So each of us worked in a different area. I was looking at the finding and evaluating OER Chris was looking at lines licensing and copyright, and then a little bit of all of us but mostly Celine to about developing and sharing resources. So what we're finding is, a lot of the material has been created, that has been created, it comes from North America. And so it reflects the higher education landscape there, and the copyright and licensing situation there. What we want is to create a curated list of resources that all open education librarians can use to train themselves to learn about open education and to start on the road of creating open educational resources. But then really the advanced aim of this is to start taking the resources that we find and adapting them to reflect the specific requirements of the European open education landscape. So for instance in terms of the language diversity that exists, the different copyright requirements in each country, and all of those kinds of things. And it's been a really fascinating process. Although of course it hasn't been without hiccups and I know Paula will look at those later on in this session. But so we are almost there, we have the basic bones of this infographic and we will be hopefully delivering it in not too long at a space of time. And so we aim for this to become a resource that not just European librarians can use but also librarians from other places that will really help establish a learning path for librarians in open education. Paula, I think that's all about as much as I have to say. Thank you, Mark. Also, this resource is not ready yet to be shared as everything else that we are going to deliver. This is going to be delivered with a CC by license for sure. Not only because as Mark had just said, all libraries we need to do a little bit of work if they wanted in their own language. Also because maybe someone else is my elsewhere might be interested in reducing it as we are using many resources created from the North American landscape, for example, because they are great resources and it's just part of them that needs to be looked at in order to be to fit into our scenarios. So please consider that our, let's call it, let's call them copyright laws, but we also have different names for this kind of laws in Europe. Okay. We have different laws and putting them together is not an easy task. So, that's part of the job. And when librarians have to support students and teachers in their everyday activities. They need to know something about these, which is referred to their own scenarios, otherwise it's not going to be helpful. And this is part of the job that we are trying to do together. Mark, would you, would you like to add something or otherwise I would just. No, just to say the three areas that we focused on where the areas where we felt librarians can have more of a contribution to the open education landscape. So really copyright and licensing is a massive issue and I know it's not just in Europe, but in general. So that's an area that we need to focus on. But also evaluating resources and being able to find the materials that are needed for each of the different disciplines. So, yes, that's what we're trying to do. Thankfully, we are going to be ready soon to share something so just monitor our website and our resources and we are going to tell you where to find our outputs during the presentation just be patient. Because now we have to, I will leave the floor again to please who is going to tell you something about our open education drops. Thanks again. Yeah, so our only drops are the idea here is a short video series for again it's sort of beginning activities to get people started with things but specifically created for to be easily consumable. And so videos that you can on the very basics of open education again, but something that newcomers can consume, while they're, you know, stopping to have a coffee while they're commuting, you know, in the bus or the subway or the car or whatever. We're just doing or just taking a little break so. So that's the idea behind the oe drops. So this is also a work in progress we've been working on an opening sort of series of of two to three drops. We have video recordings for two drops that I think are just about ready. And, in fact, we were just, as we were preparing for this session, sort of hashing out the title for the second drop so I think we finally got it. And, and so that that was over the slack just by the way in terms of communication channels where the things we're using a lot is the slack and it's I think it's really a handy handy tool there. So what else is it's been a nice, a nice sort of activity to work on in collaboration with others we start out with a kind of a text for the video, and you know, good enough way of people putting sort of small contributions together that come together to create something nice and concise and meaningful, and hopefully impactful as well so. So, so, so that's about it for oe drops I think, but you know watch out for that it'll be coming out on the no wells YouTube channel as well much like the rest of our video, our video output. And we are willing to translate them in more than one languages also. So, of course, we start with English English is our lingua franca. And we use it all the time but it's just a starting point for us and just imagine our first thought about the open education drops was that maybe if we kept it simple and short. It would have been used during a coffee break or a short walk when you don't have a lot of time but you want to grab a bite of open education in a very informal way but also. This will allow us to translate them pretty quickly maybe and that them in more than one language so also one of our points of attention is always to keep the format as simple as possible, so that nobody feels overwhelmed by the format itself. Instead of thinking about sharing the content in the easiest and quickest way possible with their own community so thank you Chris for this insight on the open education drops. And now let's move to the resources that the NOL is curating and that the NOL is producing because we are working on both actually and I will leave the floor to Celine now. Thank you Paula. My name is Celine. I am French, but I've been living in Ireland for the last nearly 25 years. So I work in the University of the Shannon. I became aware and involved with open education, really only in the last two or three years so I'm only at the start of the journey really the concept of open education. is slowly making its way up the list and the agenda in suppose the Irish higher education sector, but a lot of work to be done and I suppose getting involved with the NOL and my colleagues have really put things into perspective and is helping me to make my own colleagues in Ireland aware of the benefit of open education. So it's a fantastic network to be involved in. So from what you've been hearing. There's a lot of activities going on in the network and a consequence and a great consequence of results of those activities is that we are actually producing enough for other resources. And in order to produce create those resources. We have to be able to access other resources that are already there so we need somewhere to put the resources that would create it. And we also need somewhere to put the resources that we've accessed so they can be accessible to all our members and as opposed to the wider public as well. Anybody with an interest in open education has to be able to access those resources. So we looked at different tools. And we felt that Google documents themselves with endless list of links were not necessarily the most efficient way to store resources. All the resources we created to support our fellow members. One of our resources would be Google Docs, journal articles, book chapters, open courses, videos, plus the resources that my colleagues mentioned that we have created. And we sometimes have quite time and there isn't much to add and then suddenly we'll do, let's say the likes of a hackathon on our benefits, and then we need to find spaces for approximately 100 links. So we decided to use an opportunity user friendly for all our members. So we looked at jobs, I think, and then we looked at Wacklet and Wacklet was identified as a free, which is very important for our members free open source tool to store all the links to our resources. It allows us to organize the resources into collections. You might be already familiar with Wacklet. And if you are, I'm sure you've noticed a recent change in the display. So we're now able to organize resources into columns, which means that we can actually create the aspects of different folders or sub collection. Wacklet is a very visual tool. And again, this is very, very important as the majority of our members do not have English as their first language. So we have to be very mindful of that too. All the resources accessed during the annual network activities can be found in the Wacklet collection, all of them. The last completed collection was the upcoming Open Education Library and Learning Path Infographic that Marta introduced earlier on. And so all the resources access to create the infographic would be released shortly are available in the collections. And I'm just going to put the link to that particular one so you can see, this is an example of the collection. This one is ready. So to ensure another thing, you see, when we create resources, the likes of the infographic, we envisage that this would be accessed online, but that is also going to be printed and displayed. So to ensure that the links of our resources are still available if the infographic is produced in a printed format, we're actually adding QR codes, linking back to the Wacklet collection. So all the tools and all our resources remain live, irrelevant of the format they're being used in. So that's really what I wanted to talk about today is just, you know, to say that the network in itself, because of the amount of members we have and because of all the activities. We're actually creating an awful lot of resources, but more to the point is accessing hundreds of thousands of that stage of resources. So it is very important for us to have a central point to store all that as some kind of a repository I suppose for off links for the network. Paula. Yeah and who can do this work better than librarians. Well, I'm not a librarian myself and I'm, I'm so thankful for having you with all your skills, taking care of this part which is really important for us, we have a, we have a message. Okay, thank you. Just me, just be making a language point. Absolutely, exactly Chris, very, very fair there. A start, a commencement, but this could apply as well to RNOL, Paula. Yeah, definitely, definitely. This is a nice coincidence. Yeah, another, another activity that I'm going to talk to you about now is the tools that we've been working on together, starting from an hackathon activity that we organized during the summertime you can you just have to imagine what does it mean to organize something in July like an hackathon activity with members of a network who are volunteering doing something on top of their everyday work. This was fun, I have to tell you, but we've been working and not by ourselves because we have the NIL from the OER Africa giving us an input about the collecting resources that provide evidence based studies about the benefits of open education and we've been working on them in order to create lists of benefits together during this hackathon activity and then to prioritize them with time so the hackathon activity to work on the list of benefits lasted a couple of hours but then we took some weeks in order to have more time and to think and rethink about those lists of benefits and try to prioritize them according to the NIL landscape. So what we wanted to have were not only tools that speak about the benefits of open education for different stakeholders and we are, we shared actually yesterday morning our tools and I will add the link to our other page or if anyone of you in the team can add it, go ahead. They are in an open format well it's a PowerPoint format actually a PPT unfortunately because in order to keep the original format of the tools, we couldn't shift to a more open format in itself without losing all the characteristics that we developed using Google products actually at the beginning. The idea was to keep the format as easy as possible for people to reuse and adapt it to their own scenario and thank you for this, if you add the link to the chat. So what we developed are three different kind of tools, Twitter cards that are ready to be downloaded in a JPG format and reuse in Twitter as they are, if you want, or adapting them to your languages, they are different from English or adding your institutional colors, your logos, whatever you need. Also a better background if you're willing to etc because we kept the format very simple. And we didn't share our annual version we shared a template which doesn't have any logo in them, but we adapted our templates in order to be the first to use it on one side. And also to share a template version that doesn't need anyone to remove things, but just to add their logo and if they won't again change the background or the colors or the font or whatever you're willing to. So we did this for Twitter cards, but we did this also for a slide deck, which can be easily reused by anyone when you are presenting about open education and you are willing to share with your audience the benefits of it for different stakeholders and in a minute I will tell you which, which were our stakeholders first. And then we also created the leaflets leaflets in a format that can be easily printed and added to the walls of in our case libraries, first of all, but also other places around universities or who knows other contexts like schools or public libraries, whichever use you think might the support open education is welcome here. And those leaflets are in a format that again is the format of slides so that they can be easily changed by anyone know proprietary software needed. And then with any open software that allows you to work on slides, but mostly you are willing to change the order of the benefits that are there. We added all the benefits that we found in the literature, and we are going to update them in time if we have evidence of more. And therefore everyone is welcome to change the order according to the priorities of their own context, because it might be that the Italian context, for example, which is not as advanced as a Netherlands context is around open needs to focus on more basic needs at first and we need to show the benefits for students, teachers, institutions and the citizens at large, all people from different priorities. That's our context and we should localize the presentations and the leaflets for our own landscape, but it can be different in the Netherlands can be different if you in your countries are willing to reuse them. So feel free to download them and to adapt them to your own scenarios they are uploaded in as another page, and I'm going to add the link now if it's not there yet, so that you can have it in the chat. Oh, no, it's already there thank you so much. And so we, we are willing to have also a collection of your feedback if you're going to reuse them please come back to us and tell us if they are easy enough to be used first of all, because this was one of our aims. And if you have localized version in any other language, please share them with us because it would be our pleasure to collect them. And what we are going to start next week is a call for action within the annual to ask for translations. So we already have almost ready the Italian and Polish version of the tools, but we are going to, we already have volunteers for the Russian version, the Ukrainian one, the French one. So the annual members are going to provide some of the existing languages, but for sure it would be our pleasure to have more so just reach out to us and let us know what happens. And we're going also to share something about the process that we went through because it was not easy at all to be honest to find the best way to create tools, starting not with our version, our institutional version but having in our minds that our aim was, to be able to produce templates, and then to make to enable people to adapt them and we will try the first, just in order to be sure that we were going to go through the process ourselves. And, and then after the benefits that are for sure meant to enlarge and raise awareness around the UNESCO yard recommendation as you can easily imagine. So we can talk a little about the challenges that we went through and I would ask my, my partners here in the presentation to open your microphone and share about the challenges that you encountered along the way. And I think I can quickly summarize what we have but they could be better to hear from you directly maybe, if you want. Can I just say that I mean this might seem silly but for some reason, the one hour time difference. It just blows my mind every time and for because I'm originally from Canada. And I'm always thinking about time going in that direction. But I think I have to think about I have to think about time going in the other direction but only by one hour. So, so that I find a little bit tricky for some for whatever reason. But you know I think I suppose is one aspect of collaborating over a distance like this particularly with large, you know, large sort of networks of people. I think that's always, there's always challenges there. I think that our meetings are set in the middle of the lunch break, I would say, once a month each Monday is always on Monday. And we have people from Portugal, who are and from UK and Ireland they are. We started the meeting when it's 12 midday for them, but in Tomsk, which is in Siberia. It's around the 16 the afternoon so they are at the end of their working days, and sometimes it's not as easy as you can imagine to have all of them together. And that's why we record all the meetings and people are also happy about this because it happens that they can don't be there, but the time zones are always an issue because every meeting needs us in our sense that we need all the time to say each other No, but it's not my time it's your time. I was talking about the other person time. I think the other challenge, at least for me, and I'm pretty sure for everyone else is that we are all super enthusiastic we really want to get things done. But then you have to kind of balance that with with the day job and with your life. Sometimes life and day job and you know and network don't completely match up. So, you know, sometimes you think, oh, this will be done by the end of this week, or by the end of this month. And then you realize the end of the month has come and it hasn't quite quite been finished because life just got in the way. And also, I would add that English as a second language has been a challenge too. Yeah, because not only because it's maybe it's I mean, for the majority of us, this is not our native language, but it's also that this means that if you are shy or if you are not comfortable with making public mistakes, which I'm doing all the time. Yeah, if you're not comfortable with these and you don't accept that this in yourself, well, you're not going to open your microphone. And we as a network lose something anytime people take a step back and don't open their microphone to share their experience, or to tell us if they have a problem or if they are facing an issue. Anytime we don't have those challenges clearly in front of us, we can't face them. So, just imagine that we had the chance to talk with the group of people from Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Russia recently. This was quite challenging for all of us because we had an interpreter all the time. Most of the people didn't use English as a second language either. Okay, some of them understood it quickly. Some others needed the interpreter to follow the path and they are all European countries and we are doing our best to involve them in our day, our everyday activities. So languages are a challenge. They are a great opportunity also because you just imagine the history behind those languages and all the resources that are there, and that can be shared and make also different languages easier in time but at first they are certainly one of our highest barriers and well, a lot of work to be done on this side. And also about what Marta just said, we might also share with you that time is an issue, time to be online, to share active involvement with other people in the network. It's not always available and also meeting different time zones is also an issue when you have not a lot of time. And this is another problem for us when we need to take action very quickly. So what we are doing in the annual and I really would like to listen from the audience to is supporting each other being very patient I would make it quick because I really would like to hear from the audience. We really negotiate and try to pull efforts in order to make it work. That's what we do being very welcoming with life, not only with work issues because we all have them. And we have people in the room who just moved from one house to the other. Thank you very well. What, what, what happens when life is in between. We have a question from Cynthia. When they are translated will they be made publicly available with the English versions. Cynthia are you talking about the translations of the which kind of resources all of all of our resources or one resource in particular. Sorry, I was looking at actually all because we're pretty much at our infancy in this and this is a difficult thing for us right now in terms of developing that education awareness program. So we would love to be able to repurpose instead of having to reinvent the wheel, but we do have the two official languages here in Canada. Definitely. So about the benefits what I can tell you is that they are going to be translated in French, I don't have a schedule yet for this because we are going to talk about this in our next annual meeting which is next Monday. And I prepared all the background work to coordinate the efforts in the hopefully hopefully easiest way possible for members so that they don't have to pull their time in order to create templates or anything but everything should be ready by Monday to ease their work on the translation and that as soon as the resources will be prepared, checked and finalized, they will be for sure disseminated openly as everything else. Okay, so count on this. But Cynthia for the learning path for librarians I think the translation for that will take a little bit longer. But I hope that there will be some translations for that too. It's just everything has to be done step by step. Okay, any other question you are you are you curious about anything. Yes, because this session has flown we have about two minutes left. Okay, we have a question from Jonathan. How often does it happen that something that works in one country does not work in another often very often. Yeah, because, because Jonathan you have to imagine that we are at very different level of development, also from the policy perspective around open education and from what is worth open access always is leading the way and then open education still follows at this moment and well. Difference are always behind the scenes and also another issue is that we are not. Okay, we are not lawyers also. So what happens when there are differences in between countries, well, we are either librarians or instructional designers or both, but we need legal advice sometimes so it's an issue. The other thing is that although for those European countries that are members of the European Union, there is European legislation on things like copyright that gets kind of that applies to all countries. Then each individual country has to actually adapt or accept the legislation individually. So that can take a long time. And in the meantime, there's all of these gray areas where nobody knows exactly where you are. So, yeah, it can be tricky. We have another question from Kathy. I would think choice on languages you choose to translate how did you decide on English and French when we didn't decide. English, we started from English because it's the lingua franca as I said, and most of us can count on a basic knowledge of English, at least then we also can rely on many resources that are at first developed with English. It's not only French, we are also working with other languages. So, we have, as I said, volunteers who are translating in Polish, Italian, Russian, maybe Ukrainian, I can, I can rely on German tool in time and let's see what happens with Greek and Spanish, you know, we can, we can really help a lot with languages. Paula Jonathan is telling us that we need to conclude the session. Yeah, so but I think we have a few minutes grace, like, if anyone has any other questions I think we can stay on from another couple of say five minutes. So unfortunately I have to stop the recording now and but this the session room will remain open if you want to hang on and talk the room can remain open for another 15 minutes so feel free to stay here. Thank you Jonathan.