 Peter how are you sir? I'm very well thank you and perhaps you'll forgive me because I know what mental health means to you and in these challenging times it's also a passion of mine having had a couple of pretty catastrophic breakdowns in my lifetime. How are you today? Yes I'm okay Peter I've got my system my the system that's taken me 51 years to learn it sees me through thick or thin that's not to say and let's not talk about this whole situation because we're getting trouble with YouTube for speaking about such things but it's not to say that it's not an awful time and it's it's it's more awful for some than others obviously it's going to be fatal for many and of course my concern because I don't care about us old folks we've had our um you know we've had a blast on this planet but it's it's the youngsters isn't it it's the children and where their future's going and the freedoms that I enjoy to fly around the world at will you know basically get drunk in in in 85 different countries um all that's being taken away from them and and like I said I don't want to go too political because otherwise I've just got to edit it out because um yeah there's certain rules on this platform and and that's just the way it is yeah temporarily I hope I think there's um I think there's brighter days ahead yes let's let's let's look to that and uh you know the the brightest days you can create it by doing it in your head and learning to get a control on on those things that make us unhappy isn't it those thoughts that that make us unhappy um I'm working on the theory that your mental health is very much tied into your physical well-being um yes and no peter I think it's very important people realize your paradise is in here and if you eat well you don't actually need to do a massive physical load every you know a bit of gentle exercise is great the reason I say that is you don't want exercise to become your crutch otherwise it just becomes one other thing that when it's taken away from in your in your life which inevitably at some point it um you know it might well be you don't want to then crash because you put all your eggs in you know into this this um athletics basket so I like to think I'm I'm in paradise from the moment I wake up it's in my head um I'm very grateful for this life I I've yeah I'm just very grateful for this life and I I think that's just a starting block for not complaining you see that's really interesting what you say there because I give you 10 years unfortunately um but when I was your age um I was still doing 10ks regularly so I'd do a couple of training runs a week for them and then at the weekend I'd go and do a 10k and I've never been an athlete I'm too too too broad and too heavily boned to be a great runner of any description but I enjoyed it and I did it and of course I was always setting myself targets I had to beat the hour um you know and then if I got to 59 or 58 or 57 then then so be it you know but now now I'm coming up to 61 um I need uh preserve my hips preserve my knees I'm a bit broad around the waist and I and I've stopped running essentially because you know my performances were tailing off and I found that the aches and pains were not a decent payoff but I've replaced that with walking and and and I you know I'm not power walking race walking you know invariably with a member of my family we're having a bit of a stroll but I still get as much of a buzz out of that because we try to find new places to go and walk when it's possible when it's daylight at the weekend and I find that the the kind of buzz that I get from seeing new places experiencing new things even though it's a gentle stroll around some woodland or a park or through a forest for maybe an hour hour and a half and I'm not doing it fanatically every day that kind of works for me it's still I'm still absorbing new information so that's keeping the old gray matter to get over and that in turn I think impacts upon my my mental health and helps keep that in check I think that's wonderful wonderful mate definitely you know there's beauty in everything isn't there if you just look for it uh we we I think we've been conditioned most of our lives to just take everything for granted and expect you know expect to have this pay packet at the end of year this car this holiday this you know these clothes then I'm then I'm gonna feel like this when I've got all this then then I'll be good and and I think people are ever more realising well certainly a lot of people are that no it's you know appreciate what you've got appreciate this beautiful planet even if it's a stroll around the park and I mean even just feeding the ducks now would be something that I would I treasure that you know yeah especially with my son but but even just just myself um what I would say is I'm very passionate about uh what I god I don't want to get into one here because it's really hard to explain in a little sound bite and then people get confused and think you're talking about something that you're not but I've eaten alkaline now or I've kept my body alkaline for for the best part of 20 years so I never get sick you know I've I've had a spinal condition but that's related to my time in the military and um damage that was done there excuse me bless you you don't get that on the Joe Rogan show um which probably was then compounded by sitting in in a chair and I'm still sort of you'd say partially disabled now I'm I'm in um what what comes under the definition of chronic pain which is never ending pain it doesn't go away right but that's not a whinge I'm just pointing pointing that out but putting that to one side as far as all the other bits and bobs go um yeah I seem to do all right and I'm wary of I'd be wary Peter of having like dairy in my diet because I know it causes joint problems and bone problems and um abundance of meat causes over acidity in the body so then your your your precious bones that you only get one set of are being subjected to acid every day and I do wonder the point I'm getting to there is a point to this is you know when you see these elderly let's just say an elderly man in a village in Africa or or let's just say an eye Africa is not a good example because they eat this porridge in sub-saharan Africa oh they certainly did in Mozambique when I work there and it's supplied to them by the the yanks because they call it chima and it's what we would call samalina and it's the staple of their diet and they'll just eat this one they only have one meal a day there um and they'll put a spoon of a very weak broth like it might be some goat broth or something and it's it's just a trickle of gravy on top of this chima and that's all they eat so that's not a good example of good health but I've seen these elderly men on these Polynesian islands that they've lived in the nature of their whole lives or lived the natural way and they're like 85 years old and they look like they're 60 or or 55 or something right so go back to the diet thing I wonder if you have that pure diet eating in line with what what our ancestors would have done when we were hunter-gatherers how how long you could keep up running the marathons well my mum's 92 she's on two new knees that she had she had one done when she was 85 and one done when she was 86 she toddlers around on those she was evacuated during the war as a child and lived on whatever they could lay their hands on not the most healthy diet lots of sort of lard and fat and that kind of stuff involved in the cooking and but thereafter she's she's been a model of moderation and consequently she's mentally super alert you know totals around happily on her knees and is quite frankly remarkable sadly I'm not a model of moderation I've not exactly followed her example but yeah she she she's in great shape so I I guess you know that there may be elements of all those from Chima to my mum's diet or whatever else works for people and what clearly works for you and enables you to keep up your fitness levels yeah it's it diets not a difficult one for me because I've battled addictions so much in my life or I've maybe I've lived with it it's probably a better expression that's so much harder than most other things in life so giving up sugar in my tea is that's that's that's you know that's no great that's not a big challenge for me you know saying no to a dessert I phase in I I phase between all these various addictions peter it one day it's alcohol the next day it is food you know another day I find myself drinking coffee again and it's but through this whole process of constant improve attempts at improvement I I'm I'm quite good at micromanaging it all now and keeping a bad stuff to a minimum and the the green stuff so the good diet to yeah to quite a good routine let's talk about the police so because the detectives I mean drinking culture is is is infamous isn't it in in that line of work oh it very much was back in my day both in uniform as well we used to particularly we do there was a regular shift pattern that was repeating itself every four weeks and at one point you do seven night duties on the bounce so 10 p.m to 6 a.m for seven consecutive days then you'd have a quick change I come quick change I would come back on at 2 p.m and do two late turns so a nine night and day stretch well you can imagine at the end of that ninth shift 2 p.m till 10 p.m when you've done seven nights and two late turns you've had no kind of social life whatsoever barely seen anybody other than your colleagues because most of the human race were asleep while you were working you get to 10 o'clock on that Tuesday of that late turn and what did you want to do go and let off some steam you know and the whole question was you know which publican is going to give us a lock in tonight you're in the pub not long after 10 and the publican would understand you've just come off a nine day stint during which you would invariably be very very busy and dealt with plenty of nastiness and such like and yeah the doors were locked you know the public kicked out the doors locked and you would get on it so much so that because you were off the following day if you carried on till 4 a.m in the morning and you still fancied it well the markets started opening up like Covent Garden and and they would have pubs that opened at four five six o'clock in the morning so you would just go on an almighty great one but yeah in as a detective as well i became a detective in 1982 yeah drinking was very much a part of the culture if you were late for an early morning spin a search you were for the high jump and you're fine wouldn't be what it is now in modern day policing which is donuts or other forms of cakes it was a bottle of whiskey or a crate of beers or both and it would get to five six o'clock in the evening and if the di the detective inspector decided that the whiskey was coming out of the bottom draw then it did and you'd sit around have a catch up have a drink and then go to the pub but of course in those days you would meet informants in pubs and people would know that you were a detective from the local CID office and it was not an uncommon thing for somebody to sidle up to you when you're in the pub having a drink and say excuse me i'd like to have a chat and you might sneak off to the loo the car park round the back of the boozer go for a little stroll find a little nook or cranny in the pub where you could sit down and not be overheard and it would be quite remarkable what you would learn about crime or criminals um and and yeah so it was it was seared into the culture that whole drinking thing and i was very much a part of it mad in it to think in those days and this is like when i was you know a young man you you could go out at lunchtime from your job and go to the pub then you went back to work yeah well in those days the pubs were open from 11 am till 3 pm and then they close and reopen at 5 pm so yeah you go and have lunch have a couple of beers and and go back to the office for the afternoon and look at your watch wait for five o'clock to come around if there was you know if your if your work was done and off you go and then of course when i went into undercover work which started in the mid 1980s so many of the meetings that i had with villains criminals gangsters when i was persuading them that i was one of them and we were negotiating to buy drugs or guns or counterfeit currency or stolen goods or any other kind of counterfeited high-value nicked gear um very often it would be in a pub or maybe a hotel bar or a restaurant where of course drink would be involved now of course you had to be very careful because when you're chatting with these gangsters the last thing you want to be is not fully aware you want your peripheral vision working you want to be on it i mean and the adrenaline is really really helping with that because it's kicking in massively in fact you had to almost try and combat that so you didn't look like you were too wired um and likewise you know if drugs were involved during the negotiations i would only ever partake as a very very last result because i wanted to be on it i wanted to be aware i wanted my peripherals and my hearing and my all around awareness to be absolutely bang on because it was a pretty high-risk business all these tv programs are coming into my mind with you saying all this peter what was there one particular tv program that that you guys really liked because it was representative or were they all i'm thinking sweeney obviously yeah well when i was in the fact when i was at the training school at hendon um the sweeney was on in those days in 1978 and the television room was absolutely rammed every night the sweeney was on and it was great you know they had very good sources that were tipping the tipping them the wink about what life was like on the flying squad on the sweeney um and and it was it was wonderful you know john thor and denis waterman gave brilliant performances as did many other actors and it was that leather jacketed roughy toughy hard drinking womanizing kind of detective world that that i was a part of so that was really great but many years later after i i retired from the police when i got medically retired i was kind of on a scrap heap alive and wondering what i was going to do with myself and i got contracts to write my autobiography the gang buster and that got published in 2000 or 2001 and got picked up by a tv production company who were making a show for the bbc called murphy's law now they'd had two series of this drama show uh james nesbit played an undercover cop called tommy murphy and they had two series but the bbc had said to the production company this is really going to have to change here or else the show's days are numbered they had like a writer's room a group of writers that would contribute to the series and one of them bought and read my autobiography and said to the production company if we're making a show about undercover cops you've got to get this bloke on board they tracked me down i went and had a had a meeting with all the big cheeses from the production in a restaurant it was quite ironic i uh i walked we met on the in a restaurant on the first floor of a restaurant and i walked in and there's this oval table with about 11 people sitting around it right and an empty chair for me so i'm introduced to everybody and i'm trying to take in as many names as to who's an exec producer director producer writer script editor all this kind of stuff and it's largely going over my head because you know i come from a world of law enforcement i'm not a fluffy tv type and here i am thrown into this environment anyway i sit down the first woman to speak is on my right hand side and she's a script editor and clearly comes from a background where the police might not have been her favorite organization and the very first thing that she said to me she said have you actually read your book and i turned around said i wouldn't read that fucking shit if you paid me and from that point we're on we got on famously and i was literally talking to her on the phone a couple of nights ago you know we've become lifelong friends and and it just took off from there i did i was employed as a story consultant um on the show we did three more series it was very warmly received it um it won an irish BAFTA it got nominated for the uk BAFTA for best drama and decommissioned in the same week would you believe it so that's the bonkers world of television for you nominated as best drama and decommissioned like just lunacy but it was a great experience forming i've read so many scripts from so many different writers and worked very closely with them that it's really helped me in my writing since then you know and is part of the reason why i've had three radio plays commissioned by radio four and i've written those because i learned how to to write drama and to construct dialogue and and all of that plus spending a lot of time on set which has been helpful on other tv projects and it was a remarkable experience that i never ever dreamt i would have had when i was sitting in some scummy boozer negotiating to buy a few kilos of cocaine from some lunatic gangster with a nine mil down the back of his trousers it was uh uh so it was quite a journey but i so we really loved that show because i spent a lot of time with jimmy nesbitt you know teaching him the very essence of undercover policing and he really got it you know he threw himself into it really got it and i thought he delivered a a magnificent performance across those three seasons which were which very different from how the show had been it had been a bit cartoon caricature before that you know one week you'd be a nurse and the next week you'd be a brain surgeon and and that kind of stuff till we got on bold it and made it what it was yeah i do i think i remember that the what not the trailers what do they call it the first one that goes out the whatever you call that and uh was a bit cliche from what i remember yeah yeah well we certainly yeah we certainly got on board all that you know in the next three series were we're as close i think as you could get a drama to it you know of course at some point so i would just have to let the writers go with it you know there was no point being pedantic and saying it wouldn't happen like this it would happen like that um it's a drama at the end of the day you know so you can anchor it in reality but that anchor has to slip from time to time so you can drive the storytelling forward you know it's kind of made me chuckle this week that it ends up with a government minister talking to a tv production this this show called the crown which i've not seen and saying they should put some kind of proviso up at the start of it saying this is a drama you know not a documentary and you've got government ministers interfering with all that kind of stuff if you can't tell the difference between a drama and a documentary that's a little concerning yes it's interesting you say as an author i've learned an awful lot about life certainly about um scripts and one of the things it's brought home to me is the indiscretions when you watch television programs yeah for i mean a silly example guy walks into a room and there's a a hammer on the side and i'll i'll turn to my girlfriend and say someone's going to get killed with that hammer in a minute how do you know because it's just a random object that wouldn't be there and and they're going to contrive something now where the guy then has to pick it up and just just it's an author thing you you can see where they're trying to make to that end peter um maybe i should offer you an apology first i didn't watch your tv series that the wanted hunted hunt i'm so sorry hunted you're telling me you didn't watch you don't even know the bloody name of the show you didn't do you didn't do another one called wanted did you no not yet but i should i should um in all fairness i i don't really watch a lot of mainstream media now there's only one one series that i've traditionally watched for the last 20 years um or in the last 20 years so i'm not probably the best person to talk to about well you've got to tell me what that is then what do you watch um purely and i'm defending myself here from a psychological perspective we watch i'm a celebrity oh okay right and the reason i watch it's two things really well it's lots of things one it's really rewarding to know that as a person you're not an utterly useless wanker like all these celebrities seem to be i mean you can't have a week away from your family without pissing your pants what what is that about it's it's just it's coming from a military person it's just crazily insane when you go away on deployment for five months and you've got people trying to kill you yeah and then you've got people that can't be away from their you know four-year-old for three days without having an emotional breakdown it it i'm not knocking it i get it of course i get it you know we're all different i get that but i like the fact that they come in there and they're all soft around the edges and they're all arguing with each other and by the time they come out of it they form this cohesive team and they talk and they understand and they make allowances and people that weren't doing anything in the beginning announced them right i'll do that and the people that were scared of a spider have just realized actually that's when it comes to survival and food it's all in my head you know these are just luxuries that we have in western society we're allowed to be scared of a spider no disrespect to people that've got phobias i i i understand how horrible that that is but so that's the one thing peter right we allow myself i'm a celebrity once once a year when it comes around but with respect to hunted i'd be watching it and i'd be going where that ain't right they would have been caught by now they would this would have done and i might be completely wrong and i and if i if i am i apologize so how how kind of realistic was it if you're allowed to say and how much of it was kind of made for the made for the cameras it's available on all four so you can pop in and have a watch whenever you fancy it okay well i did six series of hunted i did four of the main show and two of the celebrity versions and i had a great time it is a very heavily regulated show for a couple of reasons number one there is a vast sum of money available for anybody who evades capture you know a share of 100 000 pounds so you can imagine the off-com the regulator are all over it like a rash and rightfully so another reason is that when a fugitive gets caught they quite understandably say to the producers show me the A to Z of how i got caught what did the hunters do so that i got caught because they're aggrieved they've just lost out on that chance of winning the money and they want to know how we as the hunters managed to capture them because so many of them actually think they've done everything perfectly right and you know it comes as a big shock to them thirdly the show of course has two sides to it the fugitives and the hunters the only people that sit across both sides of the show so that they know what's going on with both fugitives and hunters are the series referee who was a retired very senior police officer and essentially his decisions are ultimately binding on everybody and the exact producer so they're the only people that know what's going on nobody else is privy to what the other side is doing and that's absolutely right of course because if the show didn't have any integrity i would have walked out of it on day one if there was any element of a construct a fiddle a nonsense you know at the end of the day i might not have much of a reputation but it's my reputation but i'm not going to sacrifice it for an entertainment program and so it was very heavily regulated um and that really is what made captures so very rewarding you know every time now of course there is the power of the edit right so the show will be edited to build the tension so that it's pacey and it builds to a crescendo and all of that but of course the edit is nothing to do with us we just work 12 hours a day for 28 or 25 days or 14 days in the celeb version knocking ourselves bandy trying to find them all the time with a camera in our faces which adds another kind of level of of stress sometimes and there has been a cameraman on more than one occasion or you know female camera operator who's been told to um let's just say go away for a moment um you know so it's bang on i see all the naysayers i used to talking about figs and all that kind of nonsense and that is exactly what it is absolute nonsense a lot of people had a bit of a meltdown when we captured all of the fugitives which was on the last series that i was a part of and quite frankly that was the the result of three or four days of absolutely brilliant investigative work teamwork investigative work that led us to identify that car park where the helicopter was going to land and consequently the last two or three fugitives that were making way we knew they had to be making their way there and uh and we were able to pick them off and it was a great great victory for us wonderful many people hated it because they were on the side of the fugitives but we as hunters you know i was unashamedly party pooper in chief that was my job you know arraying on people's parade and we did that magnificently caught them all and that was a considerable part of why i decided to to leave the show in the end you've got me all excited now to to to watch the series yeah i've ruined see i've ruined the end of series four for you i'm afraid i don't know you can see all the other series and it was it was a cracking show and it was fabulous to be a part of something which so many millions of people enjoyed yeah i should say that i i literally get about 40 minutes of an evening normally around nine o'clock to finally just watch some tv to calm down that's when i finish work is gone nine o'clock every night so it's it's not like i have loads of time to watch watch a lot of television if people are wondering but but i will make it a priority to watch some of these i'm quite excited to what's the um what's the thing then peter that doesn't just stop one of these fugitives you know jumping in a cupboard for whatever the time is well somebody living in a cave for 25 days is not going to make great television um so you know you would have to be a fool um not to understand that there are i'm sure conditions placed upon the fugitives yeah you know they sign a contract same as we sign a contract but as i always said when i was a chief it is not our job to investigate that we are here to find the fugitives so anything that would be pursued but perceived by me or anyone from the production as being underhand for example going into a fugitive's previous email threads and trying to find out what the conditions of their contract would be would be cheating as far as i'm concerned and i'm sure the referee would see it that way and that person's involvement in the show would be very rapidly brought to an end i'm sure so uh there was there was none of that yeah and we and we stuck to the rules very very rigidly if it was 8 a.m to 8 p.m when 8 p.m came computer shut down end of yes we might go for a drink but there is no getting on your phone and researching out of hours that is cheating absolutely and i will not tolerate it because once again it comes back to our reputation's our credibility and a lot of the hunters you know both on the ground and in hq are currently involved in law enforcement you know or the commercial security sector and and they have you know glittering personal and professional reputations of course so i never had to tell anybody twice we all just knew it and we all just got it you imagine a serving cop on hunted you know gets found to have cheated or something what kind of journey is he gonna have next time he goes to the old bailey and stands in the witness box on a murder trial uh but we've seen you cheat on telly and you're trying to convince the jury that what you're telling us now is the truth you know so well all this came around i don't i i i don't know if you remember peter or whether we've got the same understanding of it but it was the bear grills thing wasn't it yeah yeah there was yet it was bear grills and then of course sas who dares wins i think came out around about the time the hunted started it was the yeah for our friends at home that are wondering what what we're talking about it was it was the fact that bear would pretend to do these stunts and had he just said listen folks i'm doing this for the camera obviously i'm not going to sleep inside a camel for 24 hours right people i'm sure people have gone okay still fascinating but but by lying to people and pretending that they were actually you know living this survival lifestyle and and um i mean there's one somebody throws himself in a river and he can clearly see under his thing he's got a life jacket on he's got a big life and as i say as i say we're all adults we all get it you've got tv they've got health and safety they can't have the guy drowned but but just say that instead of treating people like it you know this it's this whole whole thing of of this modern generation just gets treated like idiots all the time everyone wants your money everyone wants just to just to sort of lead you down a garden path and and i think that where it came to light was when he was filmed staying in a hotel when he was supposed to be sleeping under a pine tree or something right yeah i'll remember that yeah and um it it was quite funny then because then they edited the show and they had a big scene at the beginning going some of these scenes have have been presented to bear so he can demonstrate his survival skills right that was there they're kind of caveat to they get out of jail free card right the problem was they hadn't edited the show accordingly so bear would set a trap he'd come across this rabbit in the trap which we now know has been placed in the trap by the by the tv production crew because they told us at the beginning of the show and you've got bear grills gone oh my god i've got one wait wait and there's this poor dead rabbit in the trap that he's pretending is still alive or whatever and he's like right okay and it's like bear bear your your producers just told us all this is made up and and you're just insulting our intelligence and sorry i take things like that quite serious i'd rather just be depends what it is you know actors in a movie don't aren't going to come and say hi i'm an actor that would that would kind of ruin ruin stuff but we've seen hunted there is a rider that goes out at the start of the show in as much as that it says some of the cctv or automatic number plate recognition am pr might be replicated for the purposes of the show and that's absolutely right but you see that data is gathered by the the referee and his team and so because the state might not necessarily or private system holders might not necessarily allow us for very valid gdpr reasons and more would not allow us access to that data so what the referee and his team do is they replicate that data so they've got a map of all the ampr cameras in the country so they know if a fugitive is in a car and it goes through an area where an ampr camera is they can tell by their map if they would have triggered that camera so if we as hunters make an application to the referee and it's justified and it's lawful and it's proportionate and the referee will test all of that if we make that application and say can we have data from that ampr camera at this location on this date and at this time if the referee accepts our application and he knows a fugitive was in a car that went past that ampr camera at that stage they then may give us a load of data with it hidden in there somewhere and we would have to try and find it like you would in real life just like you would in real life and likewise the embedded producer directors that are with the fugitives are making a tv show so they're filming them most of the time so if a fugitive walks down a high street and the the embedded producer director is filming them walking down that high street if we think they've been in that high street and yet again we make the application and it's lawful proportionate justified and the referee agrees with it and we've nominated the right place at the right time we may get that footage so that's how it works but it's completely you know straight down the line but you know there's always you know in an age of fake news conspiracy theories and bare perhaps staying in a hotel it's not surprising that conspiracy theories sometimes abound and people look on things very very skeptically but you know so be it what would that expect from me so peter what um what kind of impressive things did your fugitives get up to to evade capture was there anything that was particularly remarkable yeah in series two i think it was a lovely fella called nick Cummings who actually won he and another guy called adesina won and they each walked off with 50 grand nice work if you can get it nick Cummings conducted a brilliant deception on us whereby he got a decoy you know dressed like him identical clothing and all of that and led a uh and led us a trail of deceit which we had to follow we had no choice you know there was something was skeptical about it and i'm not detracting from nick because it was a brilliant decoy and by and large you know we we fell for that um in series one the remarkable dr ricky allen who was erasable and you know grumpy and kind of at his own particular take on the world but a man who uh i have an enormous amount of respect for he laid a false trail up in the wilds of scotland um and actually he was tucked away watching us follow that false trail you know so some people did some really kind of inventive sort of things along the way and so often we felt we were compelled to follow these trails um and sometimes they were decoys they were wrong and they made us look a little bit foolish and uh and that's all great of course so if they were to use a bank card it would you be able to say right if we were the you know real police here now we'd be able to access that transaction if we if we if we knew that they had a card you know we'd have to know the card details we'd have to know the bank account details so we have to find all those things out you know you can't simply like in real life go to a bank and say you know can if anybody called john smith uses their bank a car bank card can you tell us no you've got to identify the account then you have to have a flag put on that account so that when the card goes into the machine it will trigger that flag and we will get notified but once again the referee would feed in that notification at the identical sort of time as to how you would get it in real life if it was a police investigation now i'll give you an example on um cctv if i may if you take king's cross railway station in london right it's got about 15 16 platforms so you imagine how many cctv cameras are in that station 15 platforms say vast concourse numerous shops that's just inside the building yeah then think of the outside of the building which again is swamped by multiple cctv cameras if we put an application into the referee that said we believe the fugitive joe blogs was at king's cross station on monday the first of december then the referee would say well that's hundreds of cctv cameras it will take a team of people days to look at all that footage so in essence you're not going to get it because in practical terms you wouldn't get it all right if maybe it was a terrorist suspect who'd let off a device and killed many people you know some ghastly thing like that and they were on the run then maybe the police's resources would be able throw a team at it should we say but in normal kind of circumstances say for a homicide investigation you're not going to have those resources i'm afraid that's just the harsh reality however if our application says we believe and of course we would have to refine our investigation and narrow it down if we said our fugitive we believe was on platform 14 or 15 between 10 30 a.m and 11 a.m that day then of course they'll go right that's one operator to look at four cameras for a half hour span it might take half a day and you'll get the result you know completely different kind of kettle of fish yeah and that was how it was running that and that was absolutely right let's go back to your undercover days peter if we may because this gosh is absolutely fascinating i mean i the things that come in into my mind that i'd want to ask someone if i had this chance is when did the the i was going to say ira but it's obviously not just the ira it's the ira and the and the uda and the the loyalist paramilitaries what when did that start becoming an issue was that was that while you were serving or was that before you before you became a detective well i mean as a i was born in 1959 right so as a as a teenager born and raised in a london suburb who traveled into central london all the time on the trains and the tubes i grew up looking for unattended bags on trains i still do it now you know those atrocities those campaigns are seared into my head i was working as a detective on b division at kensington when the bomb went off at harrods you know and killed colleagues i remember that now yeah yeah so you know we were we were i was not only born and raised but then entered a police force as it was then which was at the very forefront of all of that albeit i never served on counter terrorism wasn't really my my bag um but of course the catastrophic stint that i spent in witness protection program so towards the end of my undercover career was all sparked by the fact that the people that supplied an enormous amount of heroin to me uh 15 kilos which at the time was the biggest landside seizure of heroin ever in the uk i know it's all been dwarfed now but that's how it was back in the day in 92 or 93 whenever that operation was um those guys it was proven that they were very very closely linked to a terrorist organization so much so that they said if we didn't want to pay them the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of pounds that we were going to pay them for the drugs so they thought we could pay them in weaponry um which gives you a very clear indicator as to who they were connected with and what kind of campaigns they were doing now when that job all went horribly wrong um and in other words all the all the so they brought the drugs this guy brought the drugs to me at the hotel at gatwick i spent hours weighing and testing these 30 parcels he and i walked off to the bar to have a celebratory drink as he thought you know to to to toast the start of a very long and lucrative business arrangement that's what he's thinking because that's what i'm telling him is going to be we get to the lift outcome the armed police shrubs to the ground handcuffed us all of that carted off other people were simultaneously arrested around the uk at locations where money was going to be handed over um and other locations people that have been involved in the negotiations and the transportation of the the drugs the heroin and all of that so they all get scooped up and then two or three days later they are all gathered together in the dock in a court charged with this very very large drug conspiracy and of course they're all looking around and they're going where's that cocky south london with the ponytail in other words yours truly and of course i'm not in the dock with them and so they pretty quickly realized that i must have been an undercover cop and they worked on the theory that if they killed me they killed the evidence and to a large part they were absolutely right now at that stage you wasn't an issue because you know being threatened and all that goes with the territory and besides they they didn't know my real name they didn't know where i lived so i could carry on working undercover and all that kind of stuff as long as i was careful not to infiltrate another part of their organization so it's all fine not a problem being threatened was you know goes with the territory when you do that kind of undercover work or or many kinds of police work anyway um things kind of progress not brilliantly they discover the plot to kill me the fbi discover it on a phone tab in a bar in boston massachusetts and the fbi hear the code name for the assassin he was a doctor not very original and the weaponry was the doctor's bag and that's how they referred to it you know have you seen the doctor today did he have his bag within blah blah blah blah blah um so we know it's a very very real thing because the feds have told us then this is where my whole life began to unravel it was a very complex operation it involved the dea the drug enforcement agency in the states the fbi as you've heard the garner shakana the irish police in southern ireland the royal ulster consabulary as they were then um her majesty's customs and excise as they were called then and of course us the police and there was a lot of kind of infighting between these various organizations as there so often is about who's got primacy and ownership of the investigation all that kind of stuff the kind of nonsense that you know i was so glad i was never really a part of because it always just irritated the the shit out of me to be honest with you anyway the deputy commissioner of the police wants a report compiled um detailing everything that has gone on so that he is very well briefed when he goes into battle with the customs and the fence and all of that kind of stuff now this report was compiled by a detective sergeant on the team that were dealing with the arrests and the prosecution and for some reason which still remains a mystery all these years later he put my real name in that report i have a very unusual surname Blexley B L E K S L E Y there's only about 14 Blexes in the country and i fathered most of them well no no three of them um but you know my what should have gone in there is my code number which is allocated to me by the undercover unit of the yard but he puts my real name in it i've got the report on my shelves behind me and my name is repeated on virtually every page that report is then printed off and taken out of police premises which it shouldn't have been it's put in a briefcase which goes in the back of the police car you know the the plain clothes police car that he's going to drive home that night it should have been kept a lot more securely than that he then goes bloody shopping come on you know the rest you know what happens next yeah yeah yeah that car gets broken into right and that report gets stolen so now there's a distinct possibility that those who want to kill me as i identified on the fbi phone tab could be in possession of that report and know my real name in which case i would be very easy to find and therefore assassinate so i get a phone call when i'm driving home from work one night don't go home don't go home were you going to tell me why not no just book into a hotel using one of your false undercover identities because i always had a had a couple of those on the go and prepared and ready for any operation i was going to go off and do get your girlfriend to pack an overnight bag and be in here at scotland yard tomorrow morning nine o'clock well the girlfriend and i sat in this hotel all night going what's all this about and of course i didn't have a clue did not have a clue i didn't get to the yard at nine o'clock of course i'm a detective i've got there are eight and my mate pulls me aside and he goes have you seen this and he holds up the report i said no he said right there's a copy for you to read and he said and there's a copy for you to put in your pocket because i think you're gonna need it and he locks me in a side room tiny little pokey sort of office and i really could not believe what i was reading to think that this is now potentially in the hands of criminals coupled with the fact that we know about the the plot to kill me this is ludicrous absolutely ludicrous and by the close of play that day the bosses at scotland yard had decided that i had to abandon my home abandon my identity in my life as i knew it and move into the witness protection program and so began a catastrophic two-year stint gosh what do they do when you're in the witness is it like we see on the you know on in the films false identity new new house and all this sort of stuff yep yep all of that but i hadn't really thought it through because these circumstances had never arisen before and it was quite frankly ludicrous i mean i would wake up in the morning in this hideout because that's what it was it wasn't a home it was a hideout you know it was given a lick of paint and a bit of remedial building work before me and miguel for him moved in but it was still a hideout you know i couldn't be neighborly talking to the neighbors was the last thing i wanted to do and that's my normal default position to be chatty and neighborly because all of a sudden now if i'm out there mowing the lawn on a sunday morning and the neighbors say oh and where did you come from where did you move from you know and what do you do and you know all of that all i'm going to do is lay a lie upon lie upon lie and it's all more stuff that i've got to remember and i hated it and every morning i'm going out to check make sure some bastard hasn't put a device under my car you know and trying to do that discreetly and not alarm the neighbors is a very challenging thing to do so there i am every morning i wake up come downstairs and on the door mat is the male addressed to me in the name that i'm living in in witness protection so there you go there's your constant reminder first thing in the morning that you're in a hideout and that's your false identity so i get ready and then i go to work check the car as you know and that used to be my favorite hour of the day because i drive to work and i put the radio on and i could listen to whatever i wanted to listen to and for that hour or however long it took me i would be myself i would be p oblexley and i'll tell you why that was so important because invariably i get into the office and the di go plex we've got another undercover job come in i'd like you to do it so by our past 11 on any given morning i've been three different people already three different identities you know i've got this constant concern about well why was my name in the report how was it taken out of the building how was it stolen you know what's going on here is there something i'm not being told so i've got all that going on it was dark days during policing there was plenty of corruption going on which i was being made privy to and people coming to me worried for their lives and all that kind of stuff and perhaps not surprisingly i drank and i drank and i drank of a night when i got home to this bloody hideout you know the bloke who knew me best in the entire neighborhood was the guy who ran the off license because i'd be in there refueling every couple of days oh bad and and and i i became a monster my girlfriend left and quite rightfully so because i was just falling apart and becoming hugely unpleasant and eventually i had a catastrophic mental health breakdown so much so that i was placed eventually in a lock-in psychiatric ward and i spent three and a half weeks there before they kind of got the meds right and and i was discharged but i wasn't discharged i was released i was a long long way away from having good mental health and it's been a battle over the years and all that kind of stuff but my mental health is robust these days i'm very happy to report but yeah you know you don't get over a breakdown like that by having three and a half weeks in a hospital and then come out right as rain as if nothing had happened it don't work that way but yeah and that of course signalled the end of my police career because i couldn't work any undercover anymore i lived on for a few years you know doing bits of surveillance and intelligence gathering and all that kind of stuff but when all that came to an end and they posted me back to a police station i could knack it too heavily stigmatized my reputation preceded me people were very very wary of me suddenly i couldn't get passwords couldn't get access computers um and it was impacting on my mental health once again i drove out of that police station one night and all i could see was the white of my knuckles you know the the glare they were so white because i was gripping the steering wheel so tightly and i got home to uh to my now wife who was my girlfriend at the time and she stuck with me kind of this i'd met her when i was in witness protection so after the girlfriend that moved in witness protection with me had left you know some weeks later or some months later i met this other girlfriend who um remarkably stayed with me throughout the breakdown and 25 years later and two kids were still together and um and i said you know this is just this is going to make me ill again all this stress and so that was that was me and the Metropolitan Police part in our way is sometimes just the best thing for for our for our soul isn't it you know that stress is just it's so wrong to put human being and the workplace does that you know corrosive damaging yeah oh awful yeah could have claimed my life hmm you know i was that ill you know on one occasion um you know i bought a rope and i was standing in the loft and you know one end of it was tied to the rafters of the roof and all of that so yeah it's you know there's a level of stress of course which i think is manageable and inspires you and gets you out of bed in the morning and all that kind of stuff perhaps i'm being clumsy with my language here perhaps i should use the word like motivation perhaps rather than stress but corrosive overwhelming unbearable stress is is so so damaging yes i tell you what is a funny thing well funny is probably not the right word but before we had this conversation it never really occurred to me we're both two professionals that have had to check under our cars to make sure no one's trying to kill us that day yeah yeah any any any servicemen who served well when i did probably all all from the 70s 80s 90s early 90s it was the done thing you checked under your car in the morning to check the IRA hadn't put a bomb underneath it and and they did not not so many not so many squaddies cars in the UK they tended to go for the the kind of public places didn't they the pubs and like you said Harrods with devastating consequences but we were still advised you know you check under your car every morning when you pull up to a traffic light you keep a distance in front of you so you can you know get out get out of there as someone pulls a weapon on you their old habits that are still with me to this day that whole defensive driving techniques and always parking with the nose pointing outwards you know which irritates my kids sometimes and the wife you know why have you got to reverse into this parking space that why can't you just drive nose in and we can go and get the trolley and start shopping a bit quicker no no no you know and they're like well what kind of quick getaway do you think you're gonna have to make from Tesco's dad you know all these years later and i'm like i don't care i'm still parking with my nose facing out because you know you quite simply never know what circumstances might arise and i don't need to be boxed in you know and an incapable of reacting should i have the need to Peter what's it like if you're forming a relationship you're undercover you're forming a relationship with a criminal and a big part as we know of relationships you've got to be bloody friendly you know you put that person you're trying to do some undercover deal with and they got to like you very often criminals will take you at first because i've you know done a few wrong things in my life um and i remember you know not i remember doing business with in the london underworld the guy didn't even want any idea he just looked at me look what i had to for sale and went yeah all right i'll get you some papers you got to do this you got to do that you got and the what i'm getting to is what's it like when you have to break your cover when a police swoop they arrest this guy and he looks at you and goes you and realize this without friendship that you've had it it was all fictitious well usually by that stage i'm legging it down the road like a long dog i am i'm having it on me dances and i am away um that was kind of be the plan but sometimes it wasn't if that couldn't be achieved and on other occasions of course the next time you might see them would be in court as i go to give evidence and that sense of betrayal would be palpable and much as i would ignore them in the dock of course at some point you've got to make some kind of eye contact that would just be absolutely frankly kind of bonkers if you didn't um but i never i never set out to antagonize and what have you because when you're in a court of law you want to be believed you want to be professional you're going to get up there and tell the truth as much as others will try and contest that um and you don't want to be seen there sneering or being immature or anything like that towards the defendants keep it professional but a glance towards the the dock particularly if prosecution counsel say did can you see that person in the court today then you would look and say yes that's the man in the dock or you know that's the man in the middle of three or that's the man on the left you know and keep it at that was was it ever difficult though if you if you genuinely like the person or did you ever kind of empathize with their situation um yeah i like lots of the people that i dealt with you know and in a different world if they've made different career choices life choices we'd have got on famously and we did get on famously that's how we managed to get the trade done because we got on and we were business like and we'd thrash out the business because there was always difficulties about you know where the pass was going to be delivered to and how it's going to be delivered and how i'm going to receive it and how i'm going to pay for it and all that kind of stuff there are always loads of difficulties and differences of opinion on how that should be done but you learn to negotiate and some of these people when the business side of things was absolutely done and arranged and organized for next week or next month you go and have a drink and you'd have a laugh with them because of course they've got a pretty irreverent kind of attitude towards life anyway they're not bound by the constrictions of the law of the land because they tramp all over those laws so you bet they enjoy a drink and a laugh and someone from the opposite sex generally speaking you know yeah we had some good times there were other occasions when i'm quite frankly dealing with people that have clearly got their issues and they've got a nine mil down the back of their trousers and they are frightening the life out of me or they want me a strict bollock naked you know because they're paranoid i'm wearing a wire you know so it wasn't always champagne and laughs and dolly birds a lot of the time it was you know pretty pretty challenging very challenging in fact i won't beat around the bush but i was young i was fearless i had a propensity for lying and i could convince bad guys that i was born and bred in a crime like they were when did the whole kind of london or saff london uh bank robbery or arm robbery thing come around i mean i know it obviously there are robberies in the 60s 70s but wasn't it in the 80s and i'm i don't know if that's to coincide with cocaine or what but it really become quite a big thing didn't it it started to die out in the mid 80s as the cocaine explosion occurred in the mid 1980s and literally you know we we just saw volumes of cocaine that had never been seen before and people right back from the source countries in south america saw what a lucrative market it could be you know and in the 80s all of a sudden because you know i've been in the cop since 1978 so up until that stage you know cocaine was the preserve of the upper classes or your rock stars um it but by the time the end of the 90s had come around suddenly you got chipies sparkies plasterers you know and all that hoovering up on a friday night when they finished work whereas it used to be royal rock stars then it suddenly became available to all and the purity started to decrease and and all that kind of stuff but then back in those days you know arm robbery was a very risky business okay the rewards might be very high and it was particularly with things like the brinks mat robbery over e-throw where they took 28 million pounds worth of gold and cash or something and there have been other robberies since then that have been have been very lucrative but in and around the mid 80s late 80s we the police not me because i never shot anyone when i was in the cops although i did carry a gun yeah the police started shooting armed robbers and they suddenly thought well is it kind of worth it maybe i'll just go and deal in drugs instead so i think a lot of robberies were carried out so that people could get the capital they needed to invest in the cocaine industry and other drugs but that was it mid 80s rise of the cocaine industry and the start of the decline of the armed robbery industry i'm guessing technology had a played a major factor in that as well because you had the you had the die packs didn't you that were hidden in the money you had to the cameras were cropping up everywhere yeah tracker systems yeah all of that so the you know the the money boxes as they were called the security vans would have tracker systems built into them they they themselves became more robust i mean i was in dullage as a uniform cop one day when the flying squad jumped on a firm near a school in dullage and they drove a crane into the back of the of the money box the security van but um they didn't realize that the flying squad were lying in wait wearing school caretakers brown up overalls and all that kind of stuff and they all got nicked and convicted but um yeah they were very inventive you know and they were actually back in the day the armed robbers the proper blaggers the proper pavement artists you know and all those other nicknames that they had they were the the highest echelon of echelon of criminality until the drugs explosion they were the most revered and respected criminals those that were the bank robbers the security van robbers that they were the top johnnies but then that all started to change the drug dealers became the king pins because they had the most money the most weaponry and then of course by the time we hit the 90s you've got 15 year olds with a mobile phone a mountain bike and a nine mil and they've got no respect whatsoever for a 55 year old former armed robber they'll put a bullet in them as you know without any compulsion whatsoever so that again kind of began to to signal the the very shifting sands the organized crime was now built upon what are we faced with now what's the i mean you're hearing in london about these acid attacks and and kids on moped and and i'm guessing a lot of crime has gone underground i kind of business crime if that's probably not the right word but you know online online yeah a lot of crime has gone online yeah it has cyber crime of course and the authorities haven't really got handled on the scale of that i don't think um because the police don't investigate it anymore you know if mrs miggins gets defrauded you know who investigates it sadly it's it's really really poor and they haven't got the the the banks the police the government there's not the political and the practical will to really get on board this and try and tackle it at the moment unfortunately which is very disappointing because it affects so many of our most vulnerable people and they're getting scammed left right and center bodies unscrupulous pieces of garbage but overall we we have a tide of teenage blood shed now which has been flowing for many years and could be avoided should be avoided and as crime moves online as it has done as it inevitably will do as other crimes like human trafficking and the enslavement of of individuals becomes more prevalent and a higher priority for law enforcement um there's a simple solution which will tackle so much of it perhaps not a simple solution but there is a solution and that is you know i've i've i've dedicated most of my work in life to the war on drugs we've been fighting the war on drugs for 50 years now and it is a war that simply cannot and will not be won ever it's a nonsense einstein said the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results well that's what law enforcement across the globe has been doing for 50 years throwing trillions of dollars euros pounds yen whatever you like at the issue and simply nothing has changed our prisons have got full to bursting point millions of people have died unnecessarily gangsters have got rich and violence has become a currency all of that can be changed if we legalize and regulate the industry that is what we have to do yes yes of course and um with all these things that become status quo you're forgetting you know society forgets all the people in those various chains and networks that are making an awful lot of money off you know this war on drugs there's people selling equipment people selling equipment to the police to the armies to the drug agencies there's there's the there's the control where this consignment's going to get busted but this one's going to slip through and then who's controlling that and we we saw the drugs didn't we come out of central america under reagan's administration shipped by the cia or dark elements the cia into america in vast quantities um well nancy reagan was banging on about just say no right well i mean what are how successful has that campaign campaign been not at all it's a supply and demand business and the demand simply will not go away it's a very human thing to alter your state of mind you you will have done it today by having a wrong eye suspect you know i will have already done it by having a cup of coffee and foolishly smoking don't smoke kids is a months game expensive filthy smelly life shortening and antisocial don't do it um you go to the cinema you want to alter your mental state you turn the tv on to watch a drama or a play or sing or a record people want to alter the state of their brains it's part of what makes us human and of course some people choose to do it through illegal drugs and they always will the demand simply will not go away and the only people that can supply you those drugs and run the industry are bloody criminals would we let the criminals run the white the railways will we let the criminals run the nhs all right and i want something you're going to say right this is youtube we'll get booted off right you know but would you you know of course of course the only person the only people that sell drugs are criminals some of them are doing it under duress and have been criminalized by criminals to do it you know this is about harm reduction there is so much harm being caused by legal drugs now i know what people are going to say no no no no no p you got it all wrong no i'm not saying drugs harm everybody because i know the overwhelming majority of people are not problematic drug users they have a joint they have a line they drop a pill and it impacts upon them not one jot apart from the fact that they have to pay criminals for it right i get that but there are many many many vulnerable people out there being exploited by crooks suffering unimaginable harm and if we wrestle that industry away from them and so we tax it we legalize it we regulate it it will change the landscape of our nation and the world for the better it most definitely will no longer will you have contaminated batches of tablets or heroin for example claiming a clutch of young lives we'll hear these stories don't you get it from time to time you know the police put out a warning half a dozen youngsters die in this city because it's a contaminated batch of ecstasy or you know a number of people die because of the contaminated or too powerful batch of heroin that'll be gone no longer will it be an act of teenage rebellion to take drugs because the drug stores will need to be open 24 7 and on our high streets and they will be right so you imagine a teenager that wants to rebel wants to have a joint so they go to the drugstore let's say they're 18 they go to the drugstore it's an act of late teenage rebellion on a Saturday night and in the same queue of the same drugstore is their granddad who wants to get a joint so he can chill out while he watches strictly right our rebellious is at teenager eight is it it becomes mainstream we can all do it if we want to how many how many kids you know are going to be standing in dimly lit pub car parks buying a bit of gear off a bloke with a blade down the back of these trousers or a nine mil who actually wants them to buy more drugs and more addictive drugs because he wants to be selling to him every day of the week you going to my drug stores you know which will be because we have to beat the the gangsters on price purity and availability so it's going to be cheaper it's got to be better gear and you've got to be able to get it 24 7 then you leave the crooks with nowhere to go right absolutely no wriggle room and you go to those stores and you get advice like you get the written instructions when you buy a packet of paracetamol you'll know where it's been manufactured what the strength of it is what the recommended and safe dosages yeah it'll happen it'll happen maybe not in my lifetime although when i'm feeling particularly optimistic i go on social media and connect with some of my friends who are absolute giants in the world of drug law reform a bloke called neil woods he's called woodsy on on twitter you know another great people like steve rolls and uk leap which is an organization which is law enforcement action partnership they're they're around the world it's full of cops and former cops and other people from law enforcement campaigning for drug law reform you know and it will come around definitely in my kids lifetimes and hopefully in mine but it's going to take courageous politicians there are certain media outlets which need to get real instead of propagating fear and myths and lies and that's all that that's all all of them per year isn't it no there are some very credible media outlets out there that i've had the great pleasure of working with over the years but there are some other scandalous um outlets that i wouldn't give any time with a to very much so peter listen you've been absolutely fascinating um perhaps we can pick this conversation up again at another time and do a part two because there's probably a million things that that i'm more more that i'd love to ask you um for people that haven't read your work which which book would you recommend that they read first please read my most recent book okay which is called manhunt now i and you can also listen to our podcast which is called manhunt finding kevin pal p-a-r-l-e which is on the bbc sounds platform and other platforms the last 19 months of my life have been dedicated to finding six foot six liver puddle and kevin pal who's wanted in connection with two separate and ghastly murders the first murder in 2004 of liam kelly a 16 year old boy a kid a child denied the opportunity to grow to mature and a man who'd find a partner of a family to provide for gun down in the street kevin pal is unconvicted of both these crimes but very much wanted for both of them the second the blasting to death also with a shotgun and here's liam and lucy of 22 year old lucy hargreeves a mother of three young children there's liam lucy has been described to me by people who knew her as being as beautiful on the inside as she is on the outside a truly horrific crime her house was set on fire after she had been blasted with the shotgun her partner was upstairs asleep with their youngest child a two-year-old the other two kids were with their grandparents a ghastly crime that has made people in liverpool break the golden rule which is you don't talk to the police you don't grasp lucy was an entirely innocent beautiful young woman and trust me people have been talking to me and i still want people to come forward and talk to me if you go to peterblexley.com that's my website you know you can find all the links to the books there and the podcast and a recent update on my investigation my investigation hoovers up virtually all my waking moments and some of my sleeping moments again kevin pal must be found kevin pal will be found because this is about right over wrong this is about truth over lies and this is about a sense of justice you need to stand in a court and answer the allegations made against him justice i believe is the cornerstone of our society and when things are unjust it's it's not good it leaves a trail of of damage behind so please check you know i'm on all social media virtually twitter facebook instagram linked in all as peterblexley b le k s le y peterblexley.com um i've got a burner phone if anybody knows any information about kevin pal which never leaves my side um 07908 617694 he will be found it's not about kevin pal and it's most definitely not about peterblexley it's about liam and lucy a kid and a mother a child and a mother that's what it's about you'll get your man mate won't you here's hoping he's been on the run for over 16 years and i've been hunting him for 19 months but um i there are only two things that will stop me hunting kevin pal number one is his capture number two is my death yes peter thank you so much stay on the line so i can thank you properly when i when i click off record but um my gosh what a life thank you for enlightening us all to to these uh elements of it and uh yes i shall look forward to watching hunted well listen to our podcast manhunt finding kevin pal listen to that first i'm really current and contemporary and it's coming back the bbc have commissioned more episodes so as soon as i can put more stuff in the public domain it will be back brilliant and to all our friends at home much love to you all look after yourselves if you could like and subscribe that's going to help and we'll see you next time ciao ciao live work and travel in 80 countries across all seven continents achieving all of my dreams and goals along the way now i pass my simple system on to other people but i can only help you if you like and subscribe so please do so because you get one life and if you live it right one is enough