 Good afternoon, and welcome to all of the alumni who are joining us today for our third Thursday's conversation. The last one of 2022, but not the last one of this academic year. My name is Jeanine Bertie Johnson, and I serve as alumni director as well as director of campus ministries and I have roles and admissions and development as well. Just a couple of housekeeping details before we get started. If you have a technical concern at any time during the webinar, please send a chat message to the AMBS host. And if you have a question or comment that you'd like to ask our speaker, please use the Q&A feature at the bottom of your screen. You'll find that Just below what you see showing in the screen. You can also use the chat function to connect if you want to do that with other people who are here today. So I invite you now to introduce yourself through the chat. Remember to send it to all attendees and not just to the panelists. And say who you are, maybe where you're coming from. And if you want to add what years you were at AMBS, that would be great. Please note that the webinar, including the time for questions is being recorded. So now, turning to our conversation. Rachel Miller Jacobs is associate professor of congregational formation and she also serves as chair of the church and ministry department and director of worship. She graduated from AMBS in 2000 with a master of divinity degree, served on the pastoral team of Kern Road Mennonate Church in South Bend for several years, and earned a doctor of ministry degree from McCormick Theological School in 2013. She's a practical theologian and educator who has particular interest in how families, small groups, classrooms and congregations help form mature Christians. On the AMBS teaching faculty since 2012, Rachel teaches in the areas of Christian formation, children's spirituality, worship and pedagogy. Rachel will start by answering several questions I have for her. And after that we'll have time for your questions and comments. Rachel so glad you could join us today. I'd like you to start by just telling us what you'd like us to know about you as an introduction. Okay, great. So I spent my preschool years, mostly in Germany, and my grade school years mostly in France my parents for mission workers there. And while that was a long time ago that has really shaped my sense of the world and of who I am in it, we moved to the US in the mid 70s. And my dad became president of AMBS shortly after that. And I'll talk about that a little bit later. In my adult life for pay. I've been a high school English teacher, a spiritual director and a pastor for not pay. I've been a volunteer in classrooms and at home parent, and done some freelance editing and a lot. A lot of worship planning and leading in a congregation and study school teaching my aspiration when I retire I just turned 61 last week so I'm thinking about what's coming next. A couple years ago, I went to a workshop here in Goshen that was sponsored by the Elkhart County Community Foundation and there was a speaker from the Fred Rogers Center, which is does amazing work. She was talking about the simple interactions framework. Thinking about how even small interactions with children can be really significant and she showed an amazing video of the interactions that a crossing guard had with the children who came by, came by her and crossed, you know, she helped across. So, ever since then what I want to do when I retire is become a crossing guard. I've met some wonderful crossing guards who wear crazy clothes and funny hats and then have all these not insignificant daily interactions with children that really influence how those children enter the classroom and then go back home again. And that just sounds like a ton of fun to me so I'm looking forward, you know, five, six years, seven years maybe to become a crossing card. And I just have to add here, I assume you know about our AMBS graduate David Moser who's a crossing guard in Goshen, and he does exactly this. Exactly. Now I talked to David when I run past where he is the crossing guard early in the morning. Awesome. What would you like to add about your family. Yes. Okay, so Randy and I are the parents of three adult sons, and we have two lovely daughter-in-laws as well. And we are grandparents of six month old Max. So, one of my colleagues recently asked me what surprised you about becoming a grandparent and how awesome it is, is the surprise I have. One of my three grandparents says, it's amazing to be a grandparent. Well, I mean all the grandparents I've talked to. And like many other human experiences, you can hear other people say that and think, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is what I did for a lot of years. And then I became a grandparent and I was like, awesome. So I'm really looking forward to seeing Max in a couple of weeks where headed to Florida where he lives to spend a couple of weeks with family over Christmas break. One of the questions I always ask our presenters is if you could tell us a story about a time when you experienced God in a powerful way, and you might have more than one story but what would you like to share with us about that. Yeah. I don't know a lot of their stories, but the, the one that seems particularly relevant to this conversation because it, it set a trajectory for me that I'm still on. My dad died suddenly he was president of AMVS. Before then I like I've been doing volunteer work in my congregation and and I was thinking how it'd be kind of fun to go to seminary but like my dad is the president there. That would be weird. But then actually because there were many more faculty and students than now but still it felt kind of weird. And after he died, I like within a week or 10 days of that. No, obviously I was filled with grief this was really devastating I was in my early 30s I had young children he died very suddenly. I loved him. This was hard for everybody. But I probably for the only time in my life I thought of Lee heard God's voice. This man took me up. Say to me, Rachel now you can go to seminary. And I thought, Whoa, okay. I would have done that without my dad dying, but maybe not. I don't know. So I, I have this clear sense of both grief and gift and space made for me. And yeah, it was, it was a very, it was a significant experience and my time as a student at AMVS was was life changing. It sort of set a trajectory for my life after that event. Well I've never heard that story before thank you for sharing that. Yes. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah I've never heard you talk about that audible voice. So, so then maybe this next question is kind of a no brainer but like what attracted you to come back to teach at AMBS, you had been gone a few years, and, and then this position opened up and what made you want to come back. So, so I loved, I mean as I was saying I loved my years as a student at AMBS. And, and even before that I mean I was one of the AMBS kids who showed up you know at faculty retreat or at the freedoms wall day in the fall so and BS had been sort of part of my life since I was 13 or 14. And it was in pastoral ministry, which I really enjoyed and, and it also like was clearer and clearer to me that the kind of center of my location. Well, I mean this had been true previously is being a teacher like as long as as far back as I can remember being a teacher is what I have loved and been fascinated by. I was working in pastoral ministry and thinking, hmm, it'd be really fun to be a teacher. And it would be awesome to teach about the best things which would be the stuff you teach about in seminary I mean I had been a high school English teacher formerly and I love literature and I high school students. But those subjects felt penultimate rather than ultimate. Actually, at the time my husband Randall was the chair of the AMBS board. And so I was somewhat aware of the faculty getting older, and I thought, Okay, this is my shot. If I ever want to teach at a seminary, and of course, my favorite seminary would be and yes. There's going to be some turnover and I would like to be ready when that time comes so I had a conversation with a former dean Rebecca Slau. And I said Rebecca, tell me what do I need to do to be ready in the event that there should be an opening so that I could apply for it. And she and I had a helpful conversation, just full disclaimer she said real clearly, obviously I can't guarantee you anything. And I was like yeah I know I know all that I just want some like professional advice. And so I went to get my demons so that I would be ready in the event that there was an opening which probably would be coming. And, and when Marlene crop retired and there was a need to hire somebody else I applied for the position that was some of what she had done and some of what some other people had done, and then was hired. And I mean, for me, other than being a crossing guard with I'm super looking forward to like this is my dream job this is this is what I. am made for and really like to do and the place that I want to do it. Oh we're so glad you are part of the teaching faculty now. So tell us about the courses that you've been teaching maybe a brief description of each one of those. And then after you explain your courses, if you could explain some of your other administrative roles. Sure. So, this fall, I taught human development and Christian formation which is a first year often first semester course where people think both about their psychological and physical development like how did you become a human being. And then, how has your, how has your faith formation taken place, and part of what we look at is our ages and stages in relation to that and part of the function of this class is to help students become aware of their own formation to work at to some extent unresolved issues and part of the deal is to process some of our own unprocessed materials so that we then don't process it on other people's time students congregational members etc. I also taught a spiritual practices class called prayer and scripture it was originally developed developed by down truck, and then came along to me so this is a fully online class HD CF is in person every other year I teach it online. This coming semester, I'll teach Christian worship which I teach every spring alternating online and in person, and teaching and learning for transformation of pedagogy course. And that will be in person and I teach that every other year, I was scheduled to teach children's spirituality in the fall hybrid so in August starting in August but registration was too low so it got canceled that's an every other year course. Trying to think if I teach anything else. I think it's mostly those courses. Is it possible that I teach them all in one year. I think that's true. Yeah, that's what I normally teach. And I teach both online. Well, three, I don't know what the there's not both online in person and in hybrid format so in classrooms where there are well. In bimodal and hybrid so intensive where you start online and then are there for a whole week and then finish online and then bimodally where there are some in the room and some on zoom. And the other my other responsibilities. I mean Janine already mentioned that I am chair of the Trudging Ministry Department. Which means I'm also on the curriculum committee, and that I'm also on the faculty status and counseling committee which sounds strange but what we essentially do is work at promotion of faculty. I've been on several search committees for faculty members, and let's see, I'm the director of worship. Oh, and then. So when I started it and yes, while I was not the youngest faculty member there was a considerable turnover Jamie pits and I started the same year and genius, a little bit more in my children's generation, not quite a little older than that. And he was the next to youngest at that point he was the youngest and I was the youngest at this point in ambias is history, I am the oldest faculty member on staff. And so a couple years ago, Bev and I created a position which I'm currently occupying as the faculty elder, which we chose that terminology because I was the oldest. Kind of what consultative position I represent the faculty to the ambias board. I have time available for faculty members to talk to me. Sometimes the dean asked for my opinions about things stuff like that is super fun, really enjoy doing that. Awesome. Well, we'll come back to some more details about those roles later. So what are your current research interests this at this point. Right. So, depends how you define research, what's the stuff I can't prevent myself from reading almost anything in pedagogy, and in what makes people tick. So, human development and Christian formation he things. The research research and writing project I'm working on right now is a book I've been thinking around with forever and I'm trying to get it finished this year, dealing with what I'm calling ordinary harm. And what I mean by that is the daily small, but they don't feel small hurts that humans do to each other in families and work settings and congregational settings. As a human being, as well as as a pastor and spiritual director and teacher, I have bumped into this stuff in my own life and in conversation with other people. Now I was talking to a pastor friend of mine 10 peoples in Chicago, just this week about ordinary hard he's like you got to find another term for that because like if you're living in a war zone. All kinds of terrible things are happening to you happening to you every day. That's right but we all had that conversation on Tuesday so I don't have a new name for it yet. So if any of you have a thought put it in the chat, I would welcome it. What I'm trying to do is to distinguish this to count to both count this kind of harm as legitimate like it actually gets in our way, personally and inter personally, and to distinguish it from what I call extraordinary harm, because a lot of the work that's been done on forgiveness particularly is like how to forgive your rapist or the person who murdered your child. And I mean, I suppose that's useful but like neither of those things have happened to me what I want to do is figure out how I can remediate the harm that happens between me and my husband or me and my children or me and my colleagues or me and my students or people in my congregation. The other part of that is like, it's not I mean, thank God literally not of the murder and rape variety. It's the mean words or disrespect or on kind actions and attitudes, but these still like really get in our way. Yeah, that's that's what I'm researching and what I've discovered is that to my surprise the more I think about this the more complicated and like hard to get a hold of it is so it's kind of endlessly fascinating. That's awesome. And it, it seems like this hasn't been written about much. Is that true that I'm aware of really nobody has written about this. There's, there's been work done on micro aggressions, which has some kind of systems things and, and I'm folding some of that into my work. And there's stuff in conflict studies but like, this isn't always a conflict exactly so I know when I was on sabbatical about five years ago I did a pretty extensive lit review, and was not able to find really which is, yeah, part of why I was like, Oh, maybe this is an area that could use some attention. Great. And would you share with us a dream that you have for ambs. Yeah, one of the things that's really exciting about ambs is that we are becoming increasingly interculturally diverse. Not necessarily competent we're working on that but like there's just lots more diversity, and partly because of my role as director of worship and because I teach a worship class, it seems to me that this diversity is the opportunity to grow in our intercultural competence in terms of worship, and that seems to me a unique opportunity at ambs like it's. I mean there's a world conference and there are some intercultural congregations, but not as many as there might be we tend to group culturally, and I understand why that is. But that seems to me poised to do the kind of sustained work in terms of intercultural worship that is unique. And so one of the dreams that I have is that we could move more deeply into that area. Logistically and in terms of bandwidth I mean they're all kinds of complications but that's that's one of I mean, yeah, I'd love to see that. My other dream for ambs is that every ambs student would have the financial and technological resources they need. I worked with a couple students who were doing all their classes on a phone. And they were online students and wow that is really difficult. Because it's small it's super hard to read something I mean you could plug in a keyboard possibly. And so we have our head of it Brent Graver and I were talking about like the advantage of phones is you can use the phone signal, rather than electrical stuff, if you can. So that that works in some parts of the world where electricity. Some of our students don't have access to consistent electricity 24 hours a day. Yeah, I would love for all of the students who come to ambs to have the technological support that they need to do the classes that they want to do. And then I always ask people what questions they have for our alumni and this is kind of a signal that we're getting ready to hear questions from the alumni who joined us today so be formulating those and putting them in the q&a. So if you would like to ask a question or make a comment about something you've heard Rachel say, but while they're thinking about that. You also have a question for them, and you can answer this in the chat if you want. I actually have two questions. The first is. One of the things I read a number of years probably when you know back in the olden days when I was a lit teacher for high school students was that one of one of the significant ways in which we grow our emotional intelligence and broaden our horizons is is by reading novels that allow us to get into the experience of somebody who's different than us maybe in a different time and place also. So one of my questions for you is what is a what is a really great novel that you've read recently. And I will just tell you that the one I would recommend to you is a 2022 novel by Dalmatianos Figueroa who is Puerto Rican writer called a woman of endurance, and it is a novel about the Puerto Rican slave trade. There's a lot of especially sexual trauma in your life this is not the novel for you, but it is a fair it's well written riveting and ultimately an uplifting story of human resilience in the face of very significant trauma but I like I couldn't put it down. So that's my first question what's a great novel that you've read recently would love to have some recommendations. And then, particularly since I'm teaching Christian worship next semester, I'm interested in hearing from you about worship resources or blogs or worship practices that you're excited about, and that you think and the students should know about. One of the things I want to do this year is gather a set of resources and the welcome block and moodle for this class. Not that we will use all of them but like things I want people to know about. So I welcome your suggestions. Thanks and I've put those questions in the chat and hopefully people will start adding their answers there. So one question that has come in, and that is from now on. Thank you now for sending that he asked what is motivating you to write and particularly on the subject of hurt. That's a great question. What has motivated me to write on this particular subject was, first of all, being a human being who's lived 61 years so I've had some hurts and I've hurt other people, and more specifically, some very painful interpersonal experiences that happened in the context of Christian communities where I should have known better but where I thought this would never happen and like we're good people. And, and it did, and it was very painful and I didn't have the resources I needed to work with it constructively. I'm not making the claim that all hurts can be remedied interpersonally even some smaller ones. I mean it takes two or four however many people are involved. So it takes a certain amount of capacity and willingness which we don't always have. But I mean, I think actually like lots of authors, I'm writing something I wish had been available and nobody else wrote it so. Well, to be a number of years ago and doesn't exist so I'm trying to like I don't know who said this I'm working out my salvation if you want to say it like that. All right, while we're waiting for questions from the alumni I have a few for you so we'll start in on those and just keep putting your comments and questions into the Q&A, and the chat. One is I did a brief description of the Fall Chapel experiment in the last alumni newsletter. But would you say a bit about what led the worship colloquium you haven't talked about the worship colloquium. That's true I forgot. Would you say what led them to try this experiment, how it worked, what people got out of it, what, yeah. So, yeah, totally forgot to mention worship colloquium so I lead the worship colloquium which meets weekly, and it functions as the NBS worship committee. Actually, we have chapels twice a week on Tuesday and Friday, and this is the group that plans and evaluates our worship, and some people take worship colloquium for credit this last semester to people to get for credit for people joined for fun because they love doing this. So worship colloquium is the group that I think with about how about the worshiping life of NBS. And one of the pieces of feedback we got last year at the end of the year so this was probably my guess is this is related to a number of different things. So we're just coming out of pandemic, not lockdown exactly but so we're in 2223 and the 2122 school year. We met in person only outdoors. Is that right Janine, do I have that right. No it's 2021 we met in person outdoors on Tuesday. That's right and Friday on zoom. Okay, so we're working our way back into indoor worship. But like for many congregations coming out of that pandemic lockdown. On campus we were really wrestling with with a lot of real experience of isolation, and this was, I think, felt most strongly by our campus students who were either international students so far from family, and context and culture which is hard under the best of circumstances and under lockdown was excruciating. And some of our younger students so students often students who come to campus our younger students like this. A lot of students who live in the area and drive in for classes so they're embedded in their own context but for campus students. This intense need for connection. Another factor is actually over the number of years here are our on campus population is dropping and our distance student number distance student numbers are rising. So we're a smaller community than we needed that we've been in the past so anyway all of this and who knows what all else contributed to the feedback we got from a number of our students saying, we really want some small group experiences. Excuse me. And so what we cooked up was an experiment to meet, like as a whole group for chapel on Tuesday and then on Friday to offer a variety of small group chapel dish so worship small group experiences. And we tried to think of four kind of different things and things that people were already had expressed some interest in so we had a somatic spiritual practices group that worked with Alan really froze, who does a lot with voice and embodiment and Leah Thomas, who teaches a course in somatic spiritual practices and then one of our students and a wrestler, who is a wonderful biblical storyteller. And then, Malika Hershberger and I so one of our students and I partnered on a on a leading planning and leading an intercessory prayer group. And in the brew Baker catler and Sue short who is a distance student partnered in leading and about this prayer book and Jeanine and Jackie wise Rhodes who's a new member of our faculty partnered in leading music, a group of people that did international music and then often contributed that music into our everybody chapel. What did people get out of it. Wow, it seemed to me like there was a lot of buzz, like people were interested in what they were doing. I think there was that kind of sense of intimate connection that about this prayer book group met online. So distance students joined that one. Right in the intercessory program was very big, six people maybe, but super regular and two students. One is a faculty member, administrative faculty member and then two employees, and we prayed the heck away for ourselves and each other and the AMS community and the world. I like we kept finding like half an hour is not long enough like we, you know, we pray for 40 or 45 minutes and then somebody would look at the clock and be like, we got a great lunch. And the music that Jeanine brought to our whole group was just spectacular was a great way to learn music so I think we. Yeah, it worked well. There was consistent engagement and different options and then also a kind of intimacy that's a little hard to find in a larger group now. This is relative right. Some of you probably go to congregations that have 100 or 200 or more people. And it's for us hover somewhere between 25 maybe 30 in the room. And then some joining us on zoom so it's a smaller group but, but there is a need for even smaller than that five or six or seven folks. And a follow up question to that is, what are some of your goals for chapels. Oh, wow. Okay, so many options. Well, for me again because I teach a Christian worship class one of the goals of chapel for me is to provide a lab setting for students to try things that might be a little out there or a little unpolished or an experiment that might not feel as free to try out in a congregational setting so so this is a way to for people who haven't had a lot of opportunity or experience and worship leadership to develop some ease and practice. And for folks who have more, who have had more experience or opportunities to like stretch into something that, you know, maybe you'd be like, I don't know if they do this with an injured, excuse me intergenerational group or in my own congregation but I want to try this thing. So lab is part of it. One of the life sort of no duh functions of chapel is to provide a venue for ongoing Christian formation of us as a Christian educational community. So, it's not a substitute for congregational life at all. It's, it's not, it's not our hour and a half long worship. We're changing all the time because students are coming and going. But this does provide a certain kind of spiritual corporate center of gravity for our campus life together, or I should say our educational life together because we do have distance students joining us online so actually even before the pandemic at the request of some distance we started live streaming chapel to AMBS folks and, and that's been another experiment was to, was to practice planning and leading and again the started before pandemic and wow it was so useful once we were in pandemic lockdown, experimenting with participating in this by modal ways and sometimes even having people leadership from the screen for people who are from the screen for people who are in the room. So we've been playing with those logistics for a while. Other goals, I mean this is related to one of my dreams for AMBS, it is to again do some kind of showing and telling of our worship cultures with each other to expanding our range of individually and corporately for how we can worship. And it's easier to do that if you can come alongside somebody whose primary worship language is different than yours. So, yeah, to sing or pray with people who don't sing and pray like you. Great learning experience. Also fun, but great learning experience. Thanks. And I'm just going to follow up with that same idea. What hopes do you have for worship and congregations, because you're teaching worship here. And you also have then an influence on what happens as these leaders go out into their congregations now and in the future. So, super quickly, I can see two things in some ways and the preview to that is I'm, I'm kind of agnostic in some ways about what congregations do in their worship culture, because it really depends on the context in which they're in and the folks who are in the congregation itself. So for many things I'm like this kind of song that kind of song up to you. The two things I have pretty strong feelings about one is that congregational worship should emerge from deep study and immersion in the biblical texts and it should draw us back back into the biblical texts in significant ways. And one of the things I teach in my worship class is a Bible reading process that Professor Miral Teneri shirts and I worked on together when we were teaching together that she named making four hours count so how to spend four actual hours preparing in a substantive way to teach preach or plan and lead worship out of that kind of engagement so we thought four hours was something that people could fit into their weeks. And especially over time four hours this week and four hours next week and for weeks and weeks and years you build a pretty big toolbox of significant engagement with biblical texts. So that's one really eyeball focused and actually biblical text focused rather than using the biblical text as a springboard. And this is some passion I share with my colleague. I'm going to go to Rudy froze who also prefers that sermons would not be springboarded out of a biblical text but really emerge out of them. The second thing I'm very interested in congregational worship is more of a process thing, which is how are we calling out and training. We're calling out people to be leaders and active participants in in worship planning and leading so you know this is kind of a lame example but I'll give it. Sometimes that we're in the season of Christmas pageants, and, and those can be seen as performances in the negative way that are cute that our children do, like how can we, how can we become congregations where the children are actually leading in worship, which would look different than if I let us in worship and it ought to but we're where we're really growing the skills of congregational members and participants to engage and even lead in worship in a skillful way. Like, are we practicing with people before they read the biblical text so that they can do it more easily. Are we paying attention to who could lead the music or help choose it. Yeah, and I've done lots of both in my role as a pastor, and also as a congregational pastor, lots of planning worship with upper grade school junior high and senior hires, including, you know, planning and co preaching sermons and all kinds of things, and it's very engaging for the congregation and an amazing opportunity for Christian information, as well as significant biblical engagement for these age groups that really speak into congregational context. Okay, we have a question from Todd freezing I'm having a little difficulty reading it because it's in the chat rather than in the Q amp a. So Todd, if I don't get it quite right. Please rewrite it in the Q amp a because I can only see a portion of your question at a time. But he wants to know. Sorry. Trying to find it again here. What do you think worship will look like in the future. And there's more to it here I'm trying to get to this question. What do you think the church churches worship will look like in 20 years or will need to look like. And then a friend said that and I'm not getting the end of it but I think it's something about how we have changed so much in. We've had like 50 years of change, just because of the pandemic. Oh, am I getting that right. Please put it in Q amp a if I missed part of it. I don't know if we've had 50 years of change but certainly the pandemic has changed lots and lots and lots of things and actually, I should have looked this up before I started this there is a group of people doing research on the effects of the pandemic and congregations. So I have to follow a few little rabbit holes to find that so I'm subscribed to their stuff so like every time they come up with something I get to read it and they have come up with nothing yet they've just been interviewing people. So what, what will the worshiping life of the of the church look like in 20 years what should it look like. Okay, I'm not trying to evade your question. I haven't the foggiest idea. I think we are in another moment of opportunity like part of what happens is we don't try new things unless we can't do things the way they used to. We used to be able to do them. So, and I actually learned this from you and your lovely wife Todd. And I'll probably say this wrong, but I think the Chinese character here is like crisis and opportunity or something like that. So we are, we're in a moment where the way things used to be isn't working in the same way. And so there is opportunity for experimentation and trying new things. What the what worship should always do, I think, is draw us into a vision of God's kingdom what God is doing in the world, and, and into the practices that shape us for joining that. And, and worship is maybe best for. No, I'm going to take that back, never mind. I don't know what it's best for but that is one of the huge functions is helping us know and claim our rightful place as participants in the big project of what God is doing. If you're like me you need that in a kind of regular way. I also, I think one emerging opportunity maybe is to find our, our sense of not just imagined but actual connection with worshipers around the world. And I would love to see us expanding our capacity to try things that are not our primary language, maybe in partnership with a congregation someplace else. When I was a pastor, I worked at some intercultural Bible study where different congregations partnered with groups in different parts of the world to study a text and speak back and forth to each other about that. I think I've never tried this but I think it'd be super interesting to find a sister congregation, either near at hand or farther away, and learn their worship practices and try to make them some of our own. But like any of the specifics. I think that's up to leaders and congregations paying close attention to their context to the times to the people who are in the congregation because again that the function of worship is to help us grow up in Christ. It's not the only thing that does that but it is one of the corporate ways in which we do that. Is that going to mean Sunday morning everybody in the room, maybe, maybe Sunday evening, maybe Saturday evening, maybe small groups like we did in our chapel experiment, maybe home groups, I mean the church throughout the ages and, and around the world has worshiped in so many ways that. Yeah, I think the forums it takes could be very multitudinous. Wonderful. And now we have a question from now on Serato, who asked if you could add anything or remove something from the voices together him know what, what would that be. And he's, he's wondering if you're satisfied with the songs that were selected. Wow, okay, so awesome question now and I have not yet sung my way entirely through that him know. When the him know a worship book came out I was an at home parent and one of the projects I made for myself was to sing five or six songs every day, and I had the time to do that. So, I don't have a judgment about what should be omitted or included. In general, what I would say is him knows are useful in gathering some shared resources. And they will always need to be accompanied by lots of other things. So I don't see them kind of as a closed cannon, which is why I tend to be somewhat again agnostic about one him know or the other. I will say in terms of my well and the other thing is in my teaching at AMBS, I'm working with people who are not only not all men and I are all Anabaptist but who are not all North American. So, so this is a him know that's really directed at a specific context it has some international music and contemporary music, you know a variety of things but but it is really aimed at us and Canadian congregations. And other like I'm really thinking about like what you students from Tanzania and Ghana and the Congo and Indonesia and Ethiopia, like, how can I begin to pay attention to what they need in their context. So that means that I, I'm like, feety awesome somebody put it together. I love it let's use it and then see what else is needed. And I will say the voices together worship leaders edition is fabulous in terms of gathering very practical thoughtful short essays and advice about worship planning and leading. It's still pretty in my estimation kind of white and middle class, which is unsurprising. So it's great for what it does. There are lots of things it doesn't do so again let's supplement. Thanks. Thanks, both of you for those questions to Rachel if there are others that you'd like to ask please go ahead and put them in the q amp a, and Rachel I have been recording the responses to your questions, particularly about the novels that people are reading and I'll get those to you later there's a lot of great lists here are listed books. I was hoping somebody was paying attention to that. And I'm serious like I will take this as my reading list. Before we go on to another thing Jean, can I recommend some other books to people. Can I tell them what I'm reading. So first of all, I'm going to show you my mug because I think you might enjoy it. It says, oh my OMG you guys that's not what I said, it's a picture of Jesus. I gave them drew straight a mug like this to and we're going to co lead a workshop I hope pastors and leaders on Christian formation and light of white Christian nationalism and a huge part of that is not what Jesus said. So the three books I wanted to tell you about the first one is okay I'm going to get this without the reflection sexism and sin talk by Rachel Sophia Bard so this is a feminist conversation on the human condition, this is a spectacular book I never thought I'd say that about a book on sin but this is really a very interesting book. The first one is one that I have actually like in depth read. I'm part way through a book called of boys and men why the modern male is struggling why it matters and what to do about it by Richard Reeves who's a bank Wall Street Journal columnist I'm not quite sure. Making the very interesting and thoughtful and nuanced argument that it's possible for it to be true at the same time that patriarchy is bad for women and that is also bad for men, and he's talking in depth about how that's the case fascinating book I haven't read the whole thing. And then I just ordered and received a book by a non Jew jury Dara dust. My apologies to whoever is from India out there listening to me mutilating this poor man's name called the persuaders at the frontline of the fight for hearts minds and democracy I heard him interviewed. I'm on a podcast. And what I'm especially interested in, in this book is growing our skills for persuasion in a, in a world that is as polarized as ours is. So I'm really interested in sort of recovering what's good in persuasion like not manipulation and not forcing people like how can we get in the mode of speaking to each other in ways that are persuasive and that pay attention to both what's spoken and unspoken in what the other person is saying because I think both in the culture at the same time that you don't have to be smart to know that. And also in the church like we're experiencing a lot of polarization and we don't have, I think adequate skills for working well with that. And so this, this question of the unity of the body of Christ is really a significant one, and again I would say a huge for the church to do its work and to provide a witness and some skill sets that the culture and world around us really desperately needs. So I just received that one haven't read it yet. It might be awesome. I'm looking forward to it but I can't tell you anything more about it, other than its title. And we have a question. Can you repeat the title of the second book. Yes, you mentioned. Boys and men. Hang on a second, and the subtitle is why the modern male is struggling. Why it matters and what to do about it and the author's name is Richard Reeves are ee vs. It's published by the Brookings Institution Press in 2022. We actually have the ambias library copy. Right this minute, it's not yet been released as an ebook but those of you who are alumni is this true Janine do alumni have access to the ambias library ebooks. Yes, and they do. I'm not exactly sure how all that works but we can definitely find out. If by any chance you have access to the ambias library ebooks, take advantage of this resource we have a spectacular library and some great librarians and because we're doing so much teaching of students at a distance we are really growing our ebook collection. I was born in 1961 so I still like the book, and I like to open a thing and hold it in my hands. The ebooks are awesome. Yeah. Okay, we have time for one more question this. Mary Ellen Meyer, and she asked in reading current church publications. It seems to me we are concerned about worship that will bring more people into church or into worship. If we think more about being church or God's people in the world. Does it make a difference in our worship if we think of it as preparing to be following God's intention for Jesus followers in the world. Thank you Mary Ellen for a wonderful question. Yeah, thank you Mary Ellen. I think you're right on the money Mary Ellen. You, I mean, I suppose there are skillful ways to use worship to draw people into the church but I think that model of getting people into the church I think that's part of what these years are calling us to release our grip on. That said, worship needs to attend to the folks who are present, which, as people maybe do come into the church in whatever way they do that requires us to keep expanding and adjusting our worship practices but but I guess my own vision for this is that the function of worship is to help prepare us and strengthen us and recall us to a sense of identity that helps us join what God is doing rather than to get people into. I don't know convert them or whatever. I mean I'm not anti conversion. It just seems like that sort of got the car before the horse. Thank you Rachel for answering all these questions and for giving us an insight into your work at ambias we really appreciate that. And thank you to the alumni who joined us today for your ongoing support of ambias. I've said many times you are our most important influences influencers in the church both the prospective students and donors. And so keep encouraging people you know to consider attending seminary even just trying one course. If you know of a prospective student you'd like us to contact please send me their name and contact information to JB Johnson at ambias.edu. I also encourage you to give generous generously to the seminary, especially here at the end of this calendar year, alumni are critical source of support for us, and also through your influence on other donors. And finally I hope you'll stay connected to the seminary through ongoing classes and church leadership center offerings. If you're an ambias graduate don't forget the special audit rate for you and you now have the option of auditing online courses so if you'd like to take a class in the spring let me know. Oh I'm sorry that's not cannot audit an online course at this point that was only during the pandemic I'm sorry. Next month on January 13th, our third Thursday conversations will feature our global and a Baptist initiatives, and we'll be talking with David Bushert, Hennock mcconan and Joe Sawatsky about those. Thanks to all of you and thanks also to student Janet McGurry who provided technical support for this webinar. This concludes today's third Thursday conversation. I hope you have a wonderful day and a wonderful Christmas season blessings to you all.