 Now we will listen to this experiment interesting experiment of the transformation of the bank into an agile Organization including the HR organization, so ladies and gentlemen the HR director and the agile coach Please welcome Eric and Morten Thank you, thank you So it's good to be back in Sweden for the people who don't know me. I I lived five years in Gothenburg When I was heading over HR for Munich a health care Swedish meta company before I went to the bank And I have to say I never would have thought that working in a bank could be much more dynamic Than working in medical devices, and I think when you hear the story Hopefully you will find out a little bit why so I will do the first part of the presentation Eric then will Take over a little bit half And what we want to do with you is is share the story on how I in G bank Transform from a traditional bank into a more agile bank. We have a very little video clip in the middle as well But that's the story, and I think it's good to give a bit of context and So this is how our offices look like in the Netherlands a couple of pictures around that And it might look quite common as long as well the Swedish offices I've seen but if you look in the banking financial institutions It's it's normally marble and it's old wooden furniture, etc. So next to making you know a new Organization a new culture, etc. We also refurnished all the offices. We had at the same time What happened in there? It's very fancy This slide is normally the slide where if myself Or one of my colleagues in the board for my in G Starts presentation with and it illustrates a big elephant with the orange color, which is the IG color and Then some of the grey hounds and what it tries to say is what we're trying to do is to assure we keep the volume and You know the the memory of an elephant so an old old big animal But we want to make it agile. We want to make it flexible as a greyhound So we don't want to be a greyhound. We still want to be a big organization representing in most countries in the world Having over 50,000 employees So we still want to have want to be the big animal, but we want to make the big animal much more lean flexible than it has been in the past and Why is that needed? I think you all experience and one of the things I learned in Sweden As Holland is quite a digital society. It's working. Yeah, it's working great and So banking in the old days Traditional you have branches all over the city, etc. What we see in the industry is for instance if you know I go to the airport a little bit later. You you have an app Uber. I'm not sure if Uber is in Stockholm But you click it on you know, I'm not that well known here. So it finds you you don't have to pay You don't need a credit card. It's all automated. That's what people expect That's you know finding finding a taxi is a bit old-fashioned if we look at other industries like Netflix What people expect as well is that they get recommendations? Which new movies are out there which new series which you know meet the needs you have and In banking we were not really doing that. We were just making products where people looked for Another one is if you book a ticket at booker.com of Trivago or some one of what you know, it gives you a very Personal experience and gives you suggestions as well It tells about the weather if you want to book a car a hotel, etc. Etc. So the whole world was transforming digital and You probably read in the newspapers as well that banking sometimes is afraid of fintechs. I Think fintechs we shouldn't be afraid of it But we should use it as an opportunity Learn from them how we really can change the bank. So what the journey what we wanted to make is to build a digital bank a Bank based on you know a digital platform for 500 million customers in Europe and Support that by a new organization form and that's the agile way of working. We implemented that digital bank is A bank connected with other ecosystems in the world Because on the one hand and there is a great app in China. It's called we chat It comes from China I'm not sure if you know it in we chat is one app which connects all the services you want So now we have a mobile phone and we have a lot of apps and that's already a big innovation Because you have everything on your mobile, but they put everything connected in one app So it's one ecosystem and you don't have to go in or out that ecosystem So one of the things we're looking at how can I and G become part of the ecosystem of other companies? Facebook Apple Tesla etc etc So you you have the one experience in your app and you can do all your financial services For today and in the future your pension paying bills etc, which your mobile phone connected overall So there's a little bit of vision we have as a bank and Then we have a little bit of a clip which I think brilliantly illustrates that because What I was saying is that going from a traditional bank in the Netherlands with 21,000 people To the bank we have now are building now where we have squads and tribes Working to a new experience is a big journey And when Eric gets the movie up and running we can look at it So technology shall even under digital bang not always works World around us is changing rapidly and the change is driven by technology Clients have an increasing number of options in contacting those they do business with Businesses that must be available 24-7 and provide relevant top-notch Personal service that applies to all commercial enterprises including banks Digital innovators such as Spotify and Netflix are at the forefront of such developments when it comes to tailoring their service to client needs They have a clear concept of corporate culture and a defined approach to collaboration processes They believe firmly in the methodology called agile For ING they are important sources of inspiration in establishing a new way of working together a new level of servicing clients The new way of working calls for quicker reactions to changing client needs less into departmental passing of the baton fewer coordination meetings more room for initiative and higher levels of responsibilities for teams and individuals So how does it work? The fundamental unit in our future head office organization is the squad Squads are self-steering autonomous teams of up to nine people Responsible end-to-end for their own specific customer related mission Squads are built around different disciplines different areas of expertise and different backgrounds For example the squad mortgage application Concerns itself with developing and implementing the most customer-friendly and most efficient way of moving from first mortgage submission To final approval and the squad search engine is dedicated to developing the most customer-friendly and Effective search engine for our various digital channels In squads you can expect to find colleagues from marketing product management Formula management data analysis user experience and IT Sometimes more of the one or more of the other depending on the nature of the squads mission Within each squad product ownership is assigned to one squad member This product owner is responsible for what a squad does is in charge of the backlog and to-do list and Determines priorities. This does not mean the product owner is the boss Coordination between members of the same discipline takes place inside chapters There is for example a chapter data analytics a chapter customer journey mortgages a chapter product management processes Chapters determine how jobs should be tackled the chapter lead is ultimately responsible for this and also represents the hierarchy for squad members taking responsibility for personal development Coaching and the performance management cycle of individual squad members The chapter lead will perform these duties in addition to their regular day-to-day job in their own squad But if squads are self-steering and autonomous, how can we ensure coordination between squads? That is where tribes come in a tribe is a collection of squads with interconnected missions There is a tribe securities and private banking a tribe mortgage services, etc As a rule a tribe contains fewer than a hundred and fifty people Coordinated by the tribe lead who although not the traditional boss of all tribe members ensures that knowledge and insights are shared Establishes priorities and allocates available budgets. The tribe lead also forms the interface with other tribes And that's it. Well almost There is one more vital role that of agile coach the person who coaches individuals and squads and who helps them to grow and prosper That in a nutshell is how most of ing head office will function in the future most but not all The agile approach involves flexibility in adapting to the needs of the moment The forming of tribes is very much a tailor-made thing dependent on specific goals and Circumstances and that is an approach that may not suit all business functions And so a degree of trial and error will help us establish what does and does not work in practice The agile approach is in itself agile and not cast in iron That is what makes it such a valuable tool in achieving our goals So I think this this gives a good picture of how we organized and For most of you it will be quite common because that's just how the edge are well I think for bank where we now have over 4,000 people Working in squads and tribes it comes close to a revolution It's a completely new way because everything which had to do with hierarchy having your own office All the things you think about all the traditional organization have gone and have now changed a little bit the background Just decide to skip this one and go back to to Each I think one of the challenges we have is that we decided as a char and Eric will talk a little bit more about that is also Become organized or self agile and that was a little bit new because not all functions as you see in the clip Decided to go agile the risk function the finance function at the moment that might change over time Are still organized in the traditional way so as HR we said we want to organize a self agile as well And I come back to them in a second But it's not only about organizing yourself in tribes or squads and circles as we have been doing It's also how can we have an HR portfolio? Supporting the business which is more agile than it is today Because it's very interesting to organize yourself But I think organization is just a mean, but it's the purpose. So what are you really delivering to the business? so First of December the whole new HR organization and the agile way will go live and what we done going to work on and already start experimenting with in a couple of test pilots is Which solutions can we put in place for ING to make it more agile? And we have challenges because we have labor regulations. We have labor law We have still fixed contracts. The question is, you know, should we have should we have a labor agreement as we currently have it? We bound to all kind of old-fashioned HR stuff Which we now are going to challenge and say well, do we really keep that or do you want to change it in a new way? So how is the HR organization organized for the people who knew Ulrich Dave Ulrich wrote a book in 2000 Which more or less broke a child up in three buckets business partners people services Administration and the communities of expertise that that's technically nothing new And we adapt him the same organizational structure because we currently don't have it in place So HR business partners are those people who work on a daily basis with our management teams and the business leaders and Their main purpose is to build those leadership teams build those leaders Contribute to setting the people other business strategy So that part of the management team and then they're responsible for the people agenda Which delivers that part of the business strategy? So that's the business partners the communities of expertise are thought leaders in their field leadership talent management performance management pensions etc and They all have dotted lines to the global organization. So every now myself are responsible for the Dutch organization. We got known to even, you know The challenges we have in the Netherlands and the things we put there in place going to merge that with Belgium But I think what we're going to do as well is is link it to the global community So we have a global expert in leadership in the Netherlands link to global We have the same in Germany We have the same in Belgium etc and that will then become a global squad responsible for leadership Then in the middle is people services and people are services. It's more or less all transactional organization in HR So every question you have as an employee about yourself or the line manager about your team you go to people services So that can be a legal question. We have five six lawyers there can be medical question We have doctors there, but it can also be a question about your lease car your fuel arrangement Etc etc etc etc So that's all organized in what we call people services So how does that then work together? The idea is that people services takes all the questions of employees in the standard out efficient way Supported by technology. So more more questions. We will have a next slide on that We will do electronically by an app as the bank serves the customers by app. We HR HR serve all Employees by an app and the community of expertise. They assure that we have best practice tools Processes and products available for the business partners to implement in their respective businesses So where I and G wants to be part of an ecosystem To answer them Majority of the questions of the employees, but also give them insights We also build an internal ecosystem of people services, which is mainly digital So I have an app and in that app I can see my team in the new organization I have 15 direct reports responsible for certain parts of the business and center of expertise and I can see the salaries. I can compare the salaries I can look at the performance ratings of the last years, etc So the digitalization makes it really Helpful to focus all business partners on the business so they don't have to answer all the questions anymore Another part. I think it's interesting is that So so in in the new HR organization one more comment on that one is then the different parts of people from people services The business partners in the COEs they will work in the squads as In the business as you see in the video clip So if we develop a new leadership program, we pull it together someone who has experience for leadership in a global Global team the local team some business partners people who execute it So we have a squad which has an end-to-end responsibility What we also did is we put four strategic Teams in place for the common couple of years and I think one of them I want to say a little bit more about But in general, it's a way of working. That's everything in the old days, which HR looked at organizational behavior Organizational design and culture. We said actually that's the way of working So we have an expertise group looking after that performance management Which actually means making all ING employees so all 21,000 in the Netherlands a little bit better after every day And assure they can perform a little bit better every day every week and every month Tele-management and talent acquisition and craftsmanship and leadership and Craftsmanship and leadership we found out because we didn't have a team which was called craftsmanship And we found out that in the agile way of working We really need it because the only way to assure or squads in the business are successful is That I have content Driven employees sitting in those squads. So having generalists in the squads in them for the business in the tribes Didn't work Because the only way you can contribute is because of your own discipline your own craftsmanship Can be it can be marketing can be something else So a big theme for the coming two three years will around being building that craftsmanship so that organization will go forward Then it's time to hand over to Eric and then the question becomes thank you the question becomes What are you willing to give up because obviously this change to a new focus within HR doesn't come For free. We don't want to bring everything to the new situation Culture culture is a very important aspect. I don't think I will have to explain that to to you and culture in the bank is Currently it's very much siloed So in an agile environment, we want to get rid of those silos and we want to get rid of those formal control mechanisms and What we want instead is the things listed on the right hand Define define purpose define the right teams and focus on the delivery performance and delivery performance By dialogue that's very important to to to note. So it's not the old-fashioned performance management This is in a true dialogue with people with ok rs and stuff to set Purpose to set goals and then have a discussion. How how can we get there in the bank? We have an orange code We have defined an orange code So this one defines the behaviors in the company worldwide so this is a worldwide behavioral guide for the people in the organization and In the dialogue we can hold each other true to this code We can have discussions on the topics on these in this code if we believe that people behave this way or not And this is also of course very much the way how we want to interact with our customers communication Already spoke a bit about it. So purpose of a powerful purpose be transparent and again dialogue Dialogue and feedback culture in a natural way of working dialogue is the key thing It's all about communication and talking from human being to human being or if you like from system to system and exchange thoughts and come to agreements on what it is that we need to do and This slide a colleague of mine made this great picture this tells a bit about the approach we do we took and how we how we got here We started in HR was before Martin joined we started in 2015 as a matter of fact Pia Maria was also there she she came to visit us at the beginning of our journey and She helped us with some to get us going with to share some thoughts on agile HR perspective What we did we had many discussions with people we did this in a collaborative way So this was a journey where we together with the employees together with the business partners together with the workers Council Together with the IT partners had discussions on what does agility mean? How can we? Come to a better faster performance and what is it that you will need in that new organization to? Perform well to function well and to be happy because we believe that you need to be happy in order to perform well, etc etc We had agile cafes where people Exchange thoughts on what it means to to work in an agile way. What is agility? Many people in the HR organization were not we're not familiar with the concept So we needed to explain a bit and we we had people Exchange their thoughts or what it meant We had IT Working together with IT What does it mean in IT? They already had some more experience and we could learn from that and then around Couple of months ago. We had a couple of in-depth Sessions were together with the people we Explored the new organization and we drew up what that organization would need to look like So the pictures that Martin had shown you before has have been Partly created together with the people KPI's KPIs awful things For all of those All those of you with a lean background you will know that KPIs can be horrible Can be the best the most terrible thing you can you can give an organization So we don't want KPIs in the old-fashioned format. We want OKRs We want performance goals and to set to have a dialogue about what it is that you will need to Reach a new organization We want to run a company-wide onboarding program. So new people coming into the company Nowadays they get washed In the ING wave working and as a matter of fact Martin was part of that. Perhaps you would like to share Some thoughts how that was I'm still on. Yeah So when I joined and I joined in what was it? April ish I spent three weeks three weeks with all new people. I think we were 15 people Going through, you know quite an interesting experience where we not only had an agile coach And we had to do assignments, but we also spent for instance time a full week in our call centers So in a full week we had to be in our call centers talking with customers and understanding the questions the customers had and After I think three days. We were more or less ready. We were all a bit nervous But also giving answers to customers. So it was a great learning experience because we learned the systems But also what what do the customers really look for? And we had a couple of assignments which really made us familiar with a new way of working Yeah, because in that assignment, I believe you were in a scrum-ish way of working You were doing something a project doing something good to the community or organizing something That's all part of this one hire through an innovative and extensive process Because we want to learn to get to know the people that come to work for us So have a have a deep selection at the door instead of a quick selection and then later find out that it's not a good cultural fit Culture is very very important and the HLHR manifesto for those of you not aware There is an HLHR manifesto out there. PM Maria is one of the the persons that is the signer and I also included a Kind of a translation by just leading solutions Fabiola eyes Eyeholster This will guide us in the upcoming months in further defining the HR solutions that we are designing There's not a lot on this This is the only thing if you Google this is the only thing you will you will get in the Netherlands We have now created an agile HR We're a group from the agile consortium and we will try to further Specify what are the specifics of agile HR because we do believe that this is key for the future of our companies Because we do believe that as an agile leader You should take impediments away from your teams and as an agile HR You we are kind of the leader that needs to take the impediment impediments away from the organization if you can remove the boundaries in the organization that Hinder people in in collaborating in an effective way We will be much more successful and the energy can flow The dialogue can really start and we can provide value much more faster Because that's of course what it is all about. So we are looking around us for agile inspiration from IT and all the sections and that includes learning making mistakes a dialogue and As I said, it's all about performance because agility in itself is not the goal The goal is a good performance Value to the customers in a quick and fast way and That's in a nutshell. I guess what our story of today was and the journey that we have started and the journey that we're still on So I guess with that it's time for questions Yes Do you have any questions? couple of things Add on later if you if you want to First of all, not have not every department decided for real. Some of them are just not ready yet The risk departments even the risk departments, I have to say are Experimenting with an agile way of working which of course in a bank in a financial institution for risk Whoa, that's quite a thing Finance for finance. It might be it might be more difficult But at the same time if it's about Incremental value to deliver it fast and Frequently frequently then they can also experiment with it But yes true. There are some sections that are not yet working in an agile way. Will that endanger the overall system? I'm not sure we will learn we're on a journey. We seriously we don't know this is a journey. This is a big enterprise for big Institution like like ours and we're discovering Do you think the whole bank will transform into this? Over time I do. I think the complexity. I think there's two things we global organization in the Netherlands we started We now working together with Belgium to get you know a common agile structure over time But what you see is for instance, we highly regulated So and in the regulations certain people have certain responsibilities. So if we're talking with the regulators and say well that's responsible of the To squad with this purpose and they look a bit awkward to you So we have to really start not only managing our own internal petal But also the industry and the regulators Because the transparency it brings and a new way of looking at how we serve customers I think is really amazing, but it doesn't mean that the surrounding is still there And then we one country the biggest country in the ING group with Belgium's lives want to get a you know It will be half of the group, but then we have had offers etc and we see now first tests where we Roll out programs where you have a squad responsible for for instance on newly new leadership program with people from different countries and global and It's just more effective because it takes all the higher keys and all the differences and all the problems We had away So but but it's it's really by doing and showing in that value. And so it's more like a How do you say the big flak which gets bigger and bigger? And it's complex one of the things that is complex is how do you free up free up? What's the word money for projects in the old in the old World you hand in the project plan and with the financial with the budget and then You are yes or no given Allocated the budget in an actual way for working. It's different and that also for financial institution That's that's a big change a mental change. It's a mind shift. I think it's it's it's an interesting story It was driven by the fact that you know, I and G the Netherlands had had a solution for You know that the interest is low on the other hand. We see that Declines have all the expectations etc. So and we went after reorganization reorganization reorganization and at some point of time You cannot continue with reorganizations, you know, you'll kill your own your own organization So what happened is that a couple of people in the board? Went visiting a lot of companies The CEO chief operating officer and and the CIO together with with the CEO They visit a lot of companies on the which Spotify here in Stockholm. They went to Zappos They went to Google they went everywhere and then at some point They were just having dinner and we say well We when we do a little bit of this and a little bit of this and little bit of this and we put it together we actually have a good story and So it really started with it was almost you know a boys or girls dream But it started with it with a vision and visiting and looking to another companies which has nothing to do with banking and Then they were I think very good in persuading the global group board in that this was the right thing to do and The global group board they saw it happening They saw the results it went very fast. There was huge energy in the organization around it So it was almost unstoppable. So it's it started and it created energy and then it just happened And the energy is really tangible Also because we restructured the the buildings and it has become much more open and It physically changed and I'm not sure if I told you but before I didn't like to come to the headquarters It was this it was a closed environment people waiting for the elevators I didn't like it but now it's we the building has opened up and also the people have opened up and for me It's a true example where you see that the environment truly does influence people's behavior Before pursuits nowadays, it's genes and whatever people want to wear Based on the occasion of the day it has changed. Yeah, there's energy, which is good Good point a very good point They themselves think they are not ready. They themselves will think that it's not for them I would not be an Asia coach if I would would question it But I do understand that in some Situations in some areas of the bank. It's more difficult to change for instance in our Encounters with global with group HR. They are it's a different playing field and There are different rules different different structures and you have to fit in those structures So we're now Experimenting with group HR how we can work in an agile way that fits them because everybody needs to find The agile method that fits their environment. There's no one solution. Yeah, but also very practical. So medical medical devices, I mean the medical department, so I Had good discussions with the medical department because they said well, you know, Martin really nice new organization structure It's really nice. It came from the people etc. But it's not for us and Of course the medical department has some regulations, you know, there are certain things from you know, law perspective Privacy perspective etc. But I said, you know, you're not only Responsible for if someone has a problem at work. They come to the doctor You're also responsible for the vitality and the energy in the organization or at least you can take that Responsibility if you believe you can add value to that and to add value to that you have to participate in The leadership programs that you know all the other things we do that means you have to sit in those squads Which deliver those products to the business? So where it started off with all role is really, you know Someone says, you know, I swinkled my ink ankle and have to go to 9 30 to the doctor And that still happens and that we have to do that is also they're now going to participate in Leadership program tele-management programs design of offices etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. So integrated in the squads where they can add value but but that is a Big step, you know, it's new It's new. I believe we had a remarkable question No, so So I think You know the stock market is for the whole group. So we don't have separate reports for the Netherlands I think we have seen a couple of things. First of all, we have a big research project going on with in Seattle, which Monetary sales on a monthly or six week basis and we're going to do that in a couple of years And they look at a lot of things, you know, almost every variable you can dream of Do teams choose themselves whether they sit etc. It is all monitored against the performance But a couple of practicalities or NPS net promoter score went up We do more with less people so on the cost-saving sides is dramatic It's almost one-third of reduction where we see that the output goes quicker But for instance, if you look at mortgages, we now can do a mortgage application within a couple of days Because it's an end-to-end process. It's with a certain tribe They're responsible for that set or etc. Well in the end day that worked for the front office to the mid office to the head office And we needed a risk stamp and it went back and it took if you're unlucky a couple of weeks And now we can do most of them in a couple of days and we want to do it in 24 hours moving forward so I think we see those things and then If you deliver that you can start advertising with that and then the customers will come again And at the same time, I'm sorry at the same time. We're not there yet. It's only a year. So We now also need to start a discussion. Okay, what exactly how can we tell that we did make that that's great Improvement apart from the things that Martin already mentioned. Okay. Thank you so much. We have several questions here But we don't have the time But thank you so much for sharing this. It was worth it even though the it's just here It's worth it. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the journey already from the energy perspective. Absolutely. Yeah Good to hear. Thank you so much a big applause