 Felly, ond hwnna, wnawn i'n gweithio i fynd i nhw'n ddechrau'r ddweudio niwn Nicola Le Ront, sy'n ddim yn ddim yn y bydd y ddechrau, y postTON, ac Nicola unrhyw ar ymarfer冠 ymgyrch, ar y ddweudio mewn ddiwyllio fel Arddurwerth. Felly mae eisiau iddeithasol yn yr hyn yn dyfodol, ac mae'n meddwl i'r ffordd yn yruger commanderaeth fel Ynys Gwyrdol, ac mae'n amser eich newid hynny o'r disfyniadol ar y Cysnod Covid. mi ar y tro iawn ddechrau ar Scotir y Pradysgolintroduch yn darlodol gyda'r trawr yn euddefnyddio'r tro. Mae Cerson Rhight yna yn ddechrau e marriages yn ddechrau i gael y tro iawn ddechrau a'r rhai Cwyrd Navigol. Mae'r corffod y cwysin hirfodon o unigol. Rwy'n dechrau'n mynd i gael i ddweud i'ch ceisio i'r tro iawn o ddodol, felly byddwch chi'n rhef sacrificing power, emotion ac change. Rhywun i ddechrau tro iawn yn gael ar glamau. Rhywbeth yn rhawn i chi, Nicola. Thank you very much. Thank you, Val. Thank you so much for having me. So, I'll begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land that I live and work on, the unceded and stolen land of the Boonwarong and Wurrongyri people of the Kulin nations. I pay my respects to their elders past and present. I acknowledge their continuing connection to land, water, culture and community, and the community traditions of caring for archives and culture through country, through songs and stories. I extend my respect to all indigenous communities across the world. I would also like to acknowledge the lived experience that everyone brings to this conversation. I acknowledge that trauma is pervasive and affects us all. I also acknowledge my incredible privilege in being able to present on trauma and trauma-informed practice within GLAM despite a global pandemic, because I am a white, university-educated, cis-gender, able-bodied woman working in a full-time, though contracted role, who receives all the privileges from the colonial settler world. I tell you this because it is important. The emotional labour, the heavy lifting of pushing for and implementing change in our professions, must not fall onto our colleagues who come from the marginalised communities, because they already do so much and have done so much, including to educate me. So thank you to the DCDC 2021 organisers for including me in this keynote. I'm really honoured. And I want this presentation to be all-encompassing for people to understand why we need trauma-informed practice, as well as how we can enact it. I want people to understand the need for change, but also know how to make change happen. So I'm going to weave into this who I am and how I found this topic to provide context as we go. As the pandemic gripped the world and horror stories became truth for everyone, trauma became more visible. But in reality, it became more visible for those of us who haven't been on the receiving end of structural inequalities all our lives. To be clear, trauma is defined as an emotional response to a deeply distressing event or series of events. And these events don't need to be life-threatening, nor cause physical harm for there to be serious, traumatic and potentially ongoing effects. Trauma may lead to feelings of helplessness, feeling overwhelmed, diminish or alter a sense of self and reduce a person's ability to respond to the challenges or other issues they encounter. Trauma can be experienced by individuals and communities, and if not provided with opportunities to heal from their trauma, it can also be passed on to others around them, leading to intergenerational trauma. So trauma always exists. Trauma is embedded within and across the glamour professions. It is recorded in our collections, reconstituted in our practices and impacts our relationships with communities and individuals. And while some items are much more likely to be emotive and may cause a traumatic response, you cannot predict what someone will find traumatic. It is our life, our experiences, our current circumstances, among other things which can impact how people respond. But no one owes you their trauma, their stories or their experiences to receive a safe environment. So this presentation is about recognising that our organisations and our practices are unsafe for many people, including our colleagues, our staff, our volunteers, our users, our donors and maybe even you. We need to change the way we do our work, but not what we do to make it safe and ultimately empowering. Because we cannot diversify and make inclusive our professions when they aren't safe for everyone to be in. And this is not an individual issue, it is an organisational and profession-wide challenge. So I am an archivist, I'm not an expert in trauma or psychology, however I come to this as a person who has engaged a lot on the topic within the archival profession. I work on the Australian Government funded project, the Finding Connect web resource. Finding Connect was established to assist people who grew up in out-of-home care in Australia in the 20th century access their records. When a child entered care, they lost the ability to have and hold the records of their childhood. They are without school photos, doctors records, family histories, sometimes even a birth certificate. Their records, the records about them are found in libraries and archives across the country, private, government, religious and anywhere in between. And sometimes those records don't exist because they've been destroyed because their value wasn't recognised at the time. Ongoing enquiries have listed records access as a priority for those who grew up in care to trace and potentially reconnect with family, to understand their childhoods, to know their history and Finding Connect was established to assist with this. I like to think of the web resource as a giant finding aid. So links together the histories of the institutions who provided care with the archival records created by those institutions, how the records can be accessed and key events and legislation impacting on the history of out-of-home care in Australia. We don't hold any records ourselves and instead we point to where records are, who holds them and how to get access to them. But critically, the web resource doesn't exist alone. It sits in a broader program and alongside support services in each state and territory, which people who grew up in out-of-home care can access to receive support, which includes counselling, record searching and family tracing. And it's as a result of this that I was first introduced to the model of trauma-informed practice and concepts such as vicarious trauma and saw their applicability within the archival profession. And I want to note here that this is not a journey I've gone on alone. There are amazing academics and professionals who do aligned work and projects that are being undertaken that challenge us to rethink what has always been done. They've championed theories that are person-centred, recognise emotion and empathy, respect the expertise of community and recognise and use our power and privilege for good. Personally, Makaila Hart and Kirsten Wright have been key to furthering this conversation alongside me. Because if we talk about these concepts, if we create resources and support each other, we can create change. And one thing we can all recognise is that change is needed. Because collections of all kinds contain materials that are critically important to someone and vital that people can access safely. Trauma is throughout our work. It can render our organisations unsafe for users and employees alike, and this must be changed. And if you think that this does not apply to you, your organisation, your profession, I suggest you look again. For me, talking on these topics began with a presentation with Makaila at a 2017 Australian National Conference on Emotional Labour in Archives with a focus on vicarious trauma. At the time, the Australian Royal Commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse was ending. And as part of our presentation, we had a discussion that was incredibly revealing. Archivists were doing work to uncover records that told stories of abuse of children. They were working with survivors to provide their records to them and they received no support. They were supposed to be neutral custodians of the records and not be impacted by what they saw, who they worked with and the work they did. But no one is neutral. None of the glamour professions are neutral. What we thought was neutral was the bias of the dominant. And what this conversation showed was that we need support for those doing the work, but we also need to support our users. How can we make the experience better for them? In this situation, we're talking of the trauma survivors who needed those records to have their truth recognised. And I want to pause briefly here and state. I recognise the profession was unsafe before I realised it was unsafe and started doing work in this area. A significant amount of work has been done and continues to be done by people from marginalised communities standing up for their rights. But I hope we are finally moving together in the right direction. So I advocate for trauma-informed practice because within the framework, you can also recognise and respond to the vicarious trauma, retraumatisation and emotional labour that it is possible for people within the glamour sectors to experience. And this is critical if we are to support diverse and inclusive professions. Emotional labour is the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfil the emotional requirements of a job. And here I want to acknowledge the emotional labour that many in the glamour professions are obliged to undertake in their roles. This can include having to informally educate colleagues and staff, sharing more of who you are than the colleague from a dominant culture has to, and not truly being able to be yourself at work. Vicarious trauma is when you are impacted following exposure to the trauma of another person or through exposure to the traumatic material over time. Vicarious trauma can result in a diminished or altered sense of self, feelings of helplessness and being overwhelmed. Symptoms vary from individual to individual and can impact on multiple domains of someone's life. The effect can be amplified if necessary support and management of the symptoms is not provided. And finally, retraumatisation, this is when someone re-experiences their previous traumatic event. For example, when people visit our galleries, libraries, archives, museums or undertake research, there is the potential for retraumatisation to occur. This can be because they are triggered by an item or a collection or by the work they are undertaking or the stories they are listening to. In the glam sectors, a trauma reaction can come from exposure to traumatic materials or following exposure to the trauma of another person. Because trauma is everywhere, it is within our collections, places, spaces, people, processes and practices. We perpetuate trauma. Within glam, traumatic materials can refer to information in records, artefacts, items, artwork, objects. So sometimes it is the item itself that can be the cause of the trauma and sometimes it's the context in which it is presented. For an example, if an item is stolen or if you are viewing a secret or sacred item, it can be that context of seeing that item that may cause the trauma rather than its actual content. Another way can be the way the item is described. For example, reusing offensive language, that is an example of a practice where we perpetuate trauma and records access and reduction within the archival profession are processes where trauma can be re-enacted. So if you come from the community that you are researching, describing or providing access to records or items from, you are more likely to be exposed to vicarious trauma, re-traumatisation or emotional labour depending on your lived experiences. And some powerful voices have shared their experiences about being traumatised because of cultural institutions and the items within them. And this quote by Lynette Russell is just one example from the archives of the concern. And I quote, there is the great concern that the harrowing incidents we might find in the archives can have the capacity to re-traumatise contemporary Aboriginal people who are the descendants, relatives and custodians. End quote. So there is a need for more support and understanding because if we cannot recognise and respond to these, then we will never have safe workplaces. We must support our colleagues, our users and ourselves to access information in a safe and empowering way. And one way that I think we can do this across all of the glamour professions is to enact trauma-informed practice. So trauma-informed practice is a strengths-based approach that is underpinned by the five principles of safety, trust and transparency, choice, collaboration and empowerment. It can be implemented in any organisation. Utilising a trauma-informed approach does not change what you do, but it changes how you do it. It recognises that the people are the experts in their own lives and should be treated as equals in any process. Essentially, it works to reduce the likelihood of stressful interactions and the effects of any previous trauma on people. And it is important to note that trauma-informed practice does not replace any therapeutic approaches or one-on-one support by healthcare practitioners. But if we use trauma-informed practice appropriately, it can mean our organisations can work towards becoming places of healing. So please note, some people will find trauma-informed the wrong language. It might not be specific enough to represent their circumstances or because using the word trauma can be perceived as negative. But truthfully, what using this language gives us is a framework and a model to guide us. So safety is the fundamental principle because if people are not safe, then the rest of the principles do not matter. This refers to physical, emotional and cultural safety. It also means staff need to feel safe at work. Trust and transparency means being open about the way you do your work and why you do it in that way. If you must do something in a set way, be transparent about why. Trust can take a long time to develop, but it is imperative to work on it. And being transparent and acting in a consistent manner can go a long way to building trust. Choice is about giving people all the options available to them, even if it is more difficult for you to do. It is also about tailoring the service you provide so that it is driven by the person's choices. And in line with trust and transparency, it also means being open about when there cannot be choice and things must happen in a certain way. Collaboration is critical for ensuring the expertise of others is recognised. You should not be working for someone, but working with them. While you may have specific subject matter expertise, they are the experts in their own lives, experiences and cultures and what is best for them. On an organisational level, the principle of collaboration also means including people from relevant communities on your advisory and governance boards, employing people from diverse backgrounds and training all staff in cultural competencies and safety. Finally, empowerment means acknowledging and validating someone's skills and strengths and utilising these as part of your collaboration with them on both an individual and an organisational scale. So empowerment can happen when all the other principles are put into effect, leading to more positive interactions and more healing. But how to enact this? A critical point in trauma-informed practice is that it will look different in every organisation. It needs to be specific and appropriate to your situation, communities and collections. People shouldn't need to disclose their trauma to be treated in a trauma-informed way. While I want to make this clear, this is not an individual problem. This is an organisational issue and a profession-wide challenge to address. But each one of us can make a difference. This includes employers, educators, professional associations, organisations. We all must advocate and act for change. So much of the time we see work happening, it's because of students, new professionals and those in precarious employment. They are structurally limited by the change they can make. So for this sector-wide change to happen, it must be embedded within workflows and practices and have support and action from the top. And one action you can take as an individual is engaging with the resources I'll mention at the end. But I don't want people just to call for more diversity in the sector. You need to take action. For example, an immediate and a tiny action you can take is to share your pronouns and land acknowledgements as a matter of course. So look across all the areas of your work and profession and think about how to apply the five principles. Break it down to make it easier to address. Consider areas where you can make simple changes. And this is going to depend on where you sit within your organisation and the role that you have. You need to think from physical to digital and all the areas in between. And what I'm showing here is just a really simple matrix that can help you break down the task. So for example, think about your website. Think about safety. How accessible is it? Do you use appropriate language? Think about trust and transparency. Are you transparent about your collections, where they came from, what communities they belong to? Think about choice. Do you provide multiple ways for people to contact you? Think about collaboration. Do you provide a space for people to engage with your items? Even something as simple as suggesting people email you with updates, changes or more information? Think about empowerment. If someone gives you feedback through the website, do you give it equal weighting to someone internal that has provided feedback? Considering your physical space, is it welcoming? Can everyone access it and use it in the same way? Do you provide brochures and signs on support services? Is there a quiet place to go if people do have a trauma reaction? How representative is your advisory board? Are diverse voices used to represent your organisation? Do you and your organisation have support-making-isms in place for staff who might experience vicarious trauma? This is a health and safety issue and should be treated as such. Does your organisation recognise it as one? Courses and training opportunities should be made available to staff on areas including cultural competency and safety, trauma, the histories of specific communities relevant to your work, relationship building, how power and privilege may be enacted. If available, make sure that you do them. Description where? There are so many projects underway that review historically offensive language in description, including racist and ableist language, and discuss how to re-describe without writing over what happened. Look into them because language is critical. And what have I done? My colleagues and I continued to work on enacting trauma-informed practice on finding connect, but I also advocated in my role as a councillor for the Australian Society of Archivists for Resources, and then I've co-authored them. I recognise that as someone with the privilege, I can't just recognise and acknowledge the problem. I can't just talk about it either. I need to act on it and support others who are willing to make change happen. Part of this work is having frameworks and processes in place so that it is embedded in practice and incorporated from the start, not later when people are already impacted. So many of the stories I've heard are because people were and still aren't supported, and this has made it unsafe for them to work there and for others to engage with that organisation. While my work is focused on the archival profession, it does have applicability across other glamour sectors. So you may be interested in the self-directed online course, a trauma-informed approach to managing archives. This goes into a lot more detail around trauma-informed archival practice and vicarious trauma, considering how to prevent, recognise and respond to it. I also have upcoming online workshops with Kirsten Wright on implementing trauma-informed archival practice, and these involve creating an organisation-specific plan around how you can implement trauma-informed practice in your organisation. I've recently co-authored an article with Kirsten titled Safety Collaboration and Empowerment Trauma-Informed Archival Practice, and this ties the literature into the practice and also considers other ways that we can implement this practice within our organisations. I'm also co-organiser of an archival education and research institute session focusing on education and support for trauma-informed archives, which is bringing 13 voices from the field together to highlight the work underway in this area, all the way from formal education programmes through to professional development, and also considers the gaps and where we're missing some content. That's happening next week, so I encourage you to look at that. Finally, I'm the co-founder of the trauma-informed archives community of practice, which I encourage you all to join to find support and share resources, because together is the way that we can be catalysts for change. So, thank you. I hope you feel empowered to take action. It can be easy to find it all too hard, too difficult, and too big a challenge, but you have the power and you can make a difference, and there are endless small acts that you can take to make Glamour safer, more empowering spaces and places. So, thank you. Thank you so much, Nicola. That was really powerful, and I'm really pleased you had that list of resources at the end, and I'll certainly be following some of those up myself. Obviously, we'll take questions as we said after we hear from Lisa, but thank you very much. That was really inspiring, actually. Thank you very much. So, move on to our second speaker, Lisa Conte, and Lisa has been the head of conservation at the 9-11 Memorial Museum since 2017, and previously she worked at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Scott Gerson Conservation and the Whitney Museum of American Art. Her current research has focused on the ethics and preservation of spontaneous memorials at public sites that commemorate loss and political and social crises. So, Lisa is going to speak today to the title, Objects of Grief and Resistance, Preserving the Community Response. The floor is yours, Lisa. Thank you. Thank you so much, Valerie, and thank you. It's an honour to be here today. Thank you for inviting me to speak. The World Trade Centre site is Sacred Land. It is located on the traditional homeland of the Lenape people. I'd like to pay my respect to their past, present and future leaders and acknowledge its significance for the land nations today. As I recognize my responsibility towards Lenape people, I also want to recognize the nearly 3,000 people who were murdered on 9-11 at the World Trade Centre, those who have lost their lives because of exposure to toxins at ground zero and the countless others who are now sick or suffering because of their experiences that day and since. I'd also like to acknowledge the individuals that played a huge part in the preservation of the tangible and intangible heritage that helps us interpret 9-11's complex history today. The information in this presentation may be sensitive material for many audience members. I've been attentive to this in my slide selection and have placed a red star in the corner of the slides to indicate that the following slide will contain images related to traumatic heritage. Since September 11, 2001, it has become increasingly common for cultural institutions to collect the material evidence of an event in real time. This practice is often referred to as rapid response collecting. This approach has been used by museums in recent years, both in the field and to crowdsource the collection of artifacts, physical and digital that relate to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement and large-scale traumatic events like mass shootings. Museum curators are thus tasked with the role of would-be fortune tellers and must resolve which among these artifacts will be historically important, often without knowing their exact origin or history of use. But there are challenges inherent in preserving physical and digital public responses to events, such as spontaneous memorials and murals or objects transformed as eyewitnesses to traumatic history, starting with the collecting process, which is elective and selective. For thousands of years, we have been commemorating the dead in many forms. Victorian culture, for example, embraced touchstones for daily remembrance with mourning clothing and jewellery as an essential part of the grieving process. Other cultures, instead of focusing on the pain of those left behind, have celebrations to honor ancestors. People have also sought to detach themselves from their grief, rebuking overt displays and attempt to move on with life. This paradigm subsisted throughout much of the 20th century Western culture in response to the vast amount of death people face starting with World War I. As this theory began to fade in the latter part of the 20th century, the phenomenon of spontaneous large-scale public memorials emerged, coinciding with the opening of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in 1982. Memorial offerings were brought to the monument in Troves and continue to be a place alongside it to this day. Others, similarly, democratic expressions began to appear with regularity in the ensuing years in the vicinity of traumatic events. I vividly recall the death of Princess Diana, for example, who would have celebrated her 60th birthday today, and the mountains of flowers and other relics people have placed outside Kensington Palace to commemorate her life and reconcile with her grief. Other forms of memorialization also come to mind like the fence at the site of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, as do the running shoes that adorned a spontaneous memorial near the finish line of the 2013 Boston Marathon to commemorate the victims of the bombing of that year's race. More recently, I think of George Floyd Memorial in Minneapolis. There some of the memorial offerings were sadly transformed by a fire that was deliberately set. Improvised sites of mourning associated with traumatic death have not only become part of the zeitgeist manifesting uniquely in affected communities, but in some cases, so has the collecting of them. Time is of the essence in these collecting scenarios, with physical items like an outdoor mural, a condolence note, or a protest poster, they were not necessarily made with longevity in mind. But at the same time, condition can't be evaluated in a typical sense. Public memorial sites inevitably change over time, not only because of an accumulation of often vulnerable things, but also because they are susceptible to external forces. Damage can sometimes be an important part of a relics narrative force. This talk will explore some of the history methods of collecting and preserving public responses to traumatic events following focusing on physical examples collected by the 9-11 Memorial Museum. Technology-based examples weren't their own discussion. Recognizing that there is no one model for this practice, the discussion will also consider the collecting and care-taking strategies of other institutions to reflect on questions of ethics, collecting etiquette and personal responsibilities to the communities where the art or artifacts were born or first showed with the public. While the discussion will be supported by material case studies, my appreciation of this topic has evolved based on interviews with colleagues who were instrumental in the collection of artifacts after 9-11. The interviews were supplemented by primary and secondary sources, including oral histories. My understanding has also been enriched by a roundtable discussion that was convened at the 9-11 Memorial Museum in 2019, which included participants from across the United States in Europe who generously shared their personal experiences with collecting in the aftermath of human-engineered disasters. A main takeaway from these conversations was that background and training greatly influenced the purchase to collecting and care-taking. Curators, for example, may come to the work electively with defined collecting priorities versus an archivist who may be instructed by their local authorities to participate. As a conservator, I am trained to preserve things, yet that viewpoint may not coalesce with individuals that have personal connections to an event like survivors or family numbers. Also, feelings, need and experiences of each person must be considered to build trust. Likewise, it is important to learn about local cultural traditions of memorialization to help guide this challenging work. And there is simply not a one-size-fits-all approach. It is specific to each affected community. People came together in inspiring ways following the terrorist attacks by 9-11 as they faced a collective traumatic experience. In a time before iPhones and social media, it is astounding to consider that nearly one-third of the world's population watched the events as they unfolded. People who witnessed the attacks first-hands on their television set or through another medium sought to express their heartache. Compassion flowed easily. The victims were everyday people. At Ground Zero, the Pentagon and in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, where the hijack planes crashed, some people responded to the tragedy by volunteering to search for the missing and those presumed dead. Others took action by distributing food, offering medical services, and by assessing the emerging needs of survivors, the bereaved and those on the front line. They even lined the highway to cheer, applaud and express gratitude to those on route to work at Ground Zero. Outside the immediate disaster sites, there were countless individuals who created things to reflect their empathy, loss and grief. The tangible community response was powerful, especially in New York City. Missing posters and site-specific memorials proliferated. Firehouses, churches, subway stations, public parks, and once accessible, the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero were popular sites for people to leave flowers, notes, art, photographs, candles, prayer cards, stuffed animals and other items. Public sites of mourning offered people a way to remember those lost, whether they knew them or not, and to collectively express their sorrow. And they were consequential because they brought people together, making space for people of all backgrounds and identities to engage with profound trauma in a deeply personal and participatory way. Additionally, there was a therapeutic aspects for those who cared for the ephemeral sites. Contemporaneous with these immediate responses, there were also people thinking about the future interpretation of the event. In New York, the rapid response collecting effort began in the days after the attacks by colleagues from the New York Historical Society, Museum of the City of New York, the Smithsonian Institution and others. The cultural community worked collectively to gain access to the Ground Zero disaster area and later fresh kills in Staten Island, where the debris from Ground Zero was processed to respectfully retrieve the histories of the World Trade Center and its inhabitants without knowing exactly what role the objects would play in preserving history. Curators navigated these sites with the help of government officials, law enforcement and staff from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. In addition to collecting for their own institutions, the work was also undertaken for a presumed memorial. This was how the 9-11 Memorial Museum's embryonic collection started, thanks to these real-time efforts. This work resulted in the retrieval of items such as colossal pieces of steel, crushed rescue vehicles and office relics. What was committed to be acquired at that point were mostly objects without any personal connection or forensic value. At that time, a curator at the Smithsonian reflected, quote, while it was too recent to evaluate the larger historical perspective, it was clear that it was something we had to document, end quote. Besides artifacts recovered from Ground Zero, ephemeral items that covered city streets and parks, like missing posters and elements of the site-specific memorials were being collected, but the process was not always direct. Objects with a provenance of one of the parks, for example, came directly from the city agency managing them. Within three weeks of 9-11, makeshift public memorials in city parks had not only been discouraged, but were restricted despite protests. The memorials at Union Square were removed on September 19, 2001. Flowers were composted, but heaps of ephemeral was saved by New York City's Department of Parks and Recreation in a warehouse, where curators would later hunt through bags for material that could tell at least a little of the story of what it was like in the city in the aftermath of 9-11. Curators had to be nimble because in the words of one, quote, they didn't have the luxury of time to carefully consider what to collect. They had to think on their feet and their feet were running 24 hours a day. Some of the spontaneous memorials remained until the late fall. By early November, the main sites of these public memorials shifted to Lower Manhattan as it began to partially reopen. Curators continued to make connections with anyone and everyone who wanted to share an artifact or story, including firemen, chapel staff, victims' families and first responders, many of whom became trusted friends. At St. Paul's Chapel in Lower Manhattan, as you can see the tributes even migrated indoors, where the mood was solemn and tranquil, every surface was covered. Seen here is one of the 9-11 memorial museums, current curators and the chapels selecting items to be saved. Outdoors, the memorials were pervasive near the trade center to such a degree that the public was forced to reckon with them. City Law, a center for urban folk culture in New York City, rescued a sampling of them with the help from their caretakers or neighbors for preservation and an exhibition at the New York Historical Society in 2002. One was the Carpenters Memorial, which was erected and carefully cared for by Union Local 608 within the perimeter of Ground Zero to honor the 18 victims from their union. One of them, Brian Monahan, was apprentice who on September 11th was only his second day on the job. While Monahan failed to return home, when he failed to return home on 9-11, his friends created the heart of this memorial outside his local subway station as they held visual for him. It soon incorporated further offerings dedicated to other in-wood residents killed at the trade center, remaining outdoors through New Year's Eve when the same friends concluded their public grieving and disassembled it for exhibition at the Historical Society. By displaying these memorials in a museum context, they were altered and no longer able to evolve and grow and fight the same way as when in contact with passerbyly and mother nature. Still, they acted as a bridge for visitors to remember not only the victims, where they lived and worked, but also their friends and what it was like to lose one. Not exhibited since 2002, they have since been transferred from the Historical Society to the 9-11 Memorial Museum and are stored as components. Because of the extraordinary circumstances and volume of the collecting in 2001, curators moved in an insanely rapid pace. Acquisition protocols were far from typical. In the case of these memorials, for example, documentation is limited aside from a few images, so their integrity as holes cannot be assured. While documentation can create a useful cultural record of these and other spontaneous memorials, it is important to consider that any efforts at reconstructing these works are imperfect and that the works lose some of their meaning and impact when divorced from their original environment. Moreover, because of their compromised condition, there are some open-ended questions with these vestiges of post 9-11 New York, where they best left to sunset and would this ever be appropriate? How do we measure their integrity? Though voluminous amounts of material were collected from the sites of spontaneous memorials, very few things with multiple components are now in a state of preservation that permits their exhibition. These intact memorials manifest something real and tangible of the original site that can still be experienced in a way that individual artifacts on their own cannot. One of them, known as Lady Liberty, serves as a unique case study in the preservation of spontaneous memorials. Lady Liberty was collected from a firehouse station in the heart of Manhattan's Theatre District. The company's motto was, never missed a performance. On 9-11, all 15 firefighters then on duty who responded to the Trade Center perished. Following this unimaginable loss, there was an outpouring of love from the neighborhood residents and tourists alike. The firehouse's lieutenant who was off 2-10 on 9-11 recalled, quote, people could not do enough for us, end quote. A spontaneous memorial with a monumental fiberglass statue of Liberty Rackfellka as its centerpiece, soon began to fill the sidewalk. Two neighbors tended to the growing memorial as a way to support their community and the people who made the offerings but also to help care for the bridge firehouse. Liberty's adormants evolved. First there were just rosary beads and flowers then came a big yellow bow for the flame. To facilitate the attachment of tributes, the neighbors had wrapped the statue with string with close pins. Commemorative tokens from near and far soon covered her from toe to torch. With them, the statue's original message echoed as a monument to all. In late 2001, the firehouse secured an afterlife for elements of the memorial, including the statue at the Intrepid Museum. The firehouse had a close relationship with the Intrepid and the museum, which served a core role in the rescue after 9-11 as the temporary base of operations for the FBI would feature the statue in an exhibition. There uniquely, visitors continued to participate in the ritual practice of her making. She acquired new tributes while on display, including memorial items like mass cards from victims' families. When the Intrepid closed for renovation in 2006, the 9-11 Memorial Museum worked with the FDNY to take the artifact into its collection. Jan Ramirez, the museum's chief curator, reflected on the power of this object, quote, it may have started out as a gesture to one firehouse, but it performed as a collective altar of grief and respect. It is the co-mingling of shock, pride and compassion all tied up in tributes to the most famous of New York City icons. There isn't anything more symbolic of New York City than the statue of liberty, end quote. Lady Liberty presents an interesting conservation challenge because she, like other spontaneous memorials already described, was not intended to last and includes paper, plastics and other even more vulnerable organic materials such as food and flowers. With this artifact, the museum has robust documentation that captures the salient details of her history, including oral histories from the house firefighters and her former caretakers, correspondence and photographs, which helps guide our understanding and care of the work. But even under the best of circumstances in a museum environment, she will continue to decay over time. Maybe in this case though, her transformation is part of her narrative power. Her aging reminds us of the transience of life while also acting as an expression of our shared humanity and the power of people coming together. Moreover, even separated from her site's specific context, Liberty is a valuable addition to the museum's collection because she is both an eyewitness to and a collection of memories of how people navigated their grief. And as a steward, we are protecting those memories and in some ways are participating in an act of healing. Methodologies of collecting spontaneous shrines are complex. Cultural institutions and other entities charged with collecting or preserving cultural evidence. After traumatic events, must be able to effectively communicate with affected communities, including victims, relatives, survivors, responders and witnesses. And generally, professional input is required, especially with the preservation of fragile items. Because of the particular emotional gravity and community resonance, we must respect the beauty of difference in how institutions may tackle this work. There have been many distinct strategies for collecting and memorialization around events since 9-11, and it is important that we continue to learn from one another. Some communities might focus on collecting the public response to large-scale trauma instead of artefacts that convey the nature of the trauma, which tell different stories or collect none or both. For example, the Paris Archive was mandated to collect all the notes, drawings and other tributes left at spontaneous memorial sites a week after the November 13, 2015 terrorist attacks. They were preserved as individual components in archived online. After the Pulse Knight Club mass shooting on June 12, 2016, the Orange County Regional History Center in Orlando, Florida collected tributes to the victims, but also artefacts that bore witness to the tragedy from within the club. And after the 2012 Sandy Hook elementary shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, 30 boxes of the handmade tributes were preserved, but it was decided that another almost 400 cubic yards of material would most appropriately live on only in digital form. Aside from what is physically collected, other significant concerns include, first, timing. When is it appropriate to initiate a rapid response collecting effort? Because spontaneous memorials are sacred spaces that function as morning sites, collecting from them while they're still being actively developed and used could be perceived as opportunistic. Second, terminology. How does nomenclature affect interpretation? Words play an important role in the understanding of context and how something will exist in time. For example, the word memorials implies a kind of permanence as compared to the ephemerality of shrines. I generally refer to site-specific public commemorations as spontaneous memorials based on Harriet Stiney's initial characterization of the practice. Stiney, a scholar of memorials and public art, has indicated her preference for the word spontaneous because it contains no inherent value judgment and uses memorials instead of shrines because its implications are more secular. Though she has amended the designation and now uses immediate memorials, defining immediacy as their most salient and essential characteristic. Other terminology that has been used includes vernacular, improvised, impromptu, grass roots, makeshift, and homegrown shrines memorials. Deciding how to describe these is an inconsequential choice. Third, training. What training should be provided for working with artefacts with difficult histories? Are we prepared to navigate emotional hazards and facilitate compassionate and constructive dialogue? Working with difficult history is not a required part of conservation and museum studies training in the US. Many collection workers are faced with a trial by fire when they must reckon with these concerns. In an institutional setting, who is responsible for staff' well-being and care? And finally, should this type of activity be anticipated in an institution's emergency preparedness plan? Fourth, resources. Resource availability can prove a major challenge when the mandate to collect is launched. Nodal institutions may be equipped with the necessary supplies, personnel to deploy or storage space to appropriate. And finally, documentation. Oral written physical or digital all help to perpetuate memory. Before dismantling a memorial site, it should be thoroughly documented. Technology now provides new ways for memory and memorialization to proliferate. Techniques like laser scanning of photogrammetry can be used to create three-dimensional digital models of sites of historic significance. 3D data allows for measured drawings and accurate model renders to be developed. In the case of memorials, they are placed in the context of their built environment to better preserve their integrity and the scale, the response. And digital models can ensure accessibility when physical permanence is not viable. Spontaneous memorials have expanded what we think of as heritage and what is worthy of preserving. They can give grief some space in the world outside ourselves and provide a lesson about hope. The legacy of these objects will be entrusted to registraros conservators and others who will have to make sense of what these things are as well as grapple with their physical care and preservation. Future understanding of these works, whose meanings will evolve, can be bolstered with vigorous documentation, but it is inevitable that there will be voids in the way events are remembered, especially as artifacts are divorced from the original context and the culture and politics of their time. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Lisa. I'm just waiting for Nicola to appear. Excellent, there she is. Thank you very much, both very powerful, really important and really affecting papers. I've learned a lot from listening to both of you today. We've had some questions come up on the chat, so lots of questions coming in, but I'm going to use my chair's privilege to start the ball rolling. I've got loads, actually, so I don't think we're going to get them all in, but anyway, I'm sure we can pick up some of the conversations of the terrorists after the session. But it just struck me listening to you both that the work you're doing is changing it in a really positive way, the kind of nature of the archivist as a professional. So there was, as I'm sure you both know, the kind of understanding of the sometimes of the archivist could be a kind of gatekeeper, and that's got some really negative connotations. And it seemed to me that both of you are shifting archival practice into something that's much more about even going further than support about enabling communities and enabling kind of everyone to be an archivist. And it's almost becoming a conduit to enabling that to happen. And I wondered if you could both comment on that, whether you agree with it, whether you're aware of it. I mean, I thank you so much for that question, and Nicola, I got so much from your presentation, and I'm so excited to click on all of those resource links that you sent at the end. But I think that today there are a lot of citizen responders because a lot of the material that is collected belongs to these communities, so it's very important that everybody is involved in the practice of consideration of how things are collected, saved and accessed. And I personally am really inspired by the way in which colleagues are coming together and being candid with one another and sharing their different perspectives and sharing, challenging, having difficult conversations, which I think is probably one of the most inspiring things that comes out of this work. We learn a lot about each other, we learn a lot about our communities, and at the end of it, I think we grow them. Yeah, I agree. Thanks, Lisa, for your nice comments as well. I think it's a really important time for those of us in the archival profession and indeed the broader information professions. I think it's a bit of a turning point where there is a lot in the theory already that's encouraging us to really put people first over particularly the records and things. It is a people profession, but we often get caught up in the paper or the object or the item. And I think that we're really starting to get to the bottom of that and how we can change our perception because I think one of the problems is people don't want to work with us. So I know that's one of the tenants that I was talking about is we need to recognise others' expertise, be that an individual or a community. And that's really critical because I think if we want to engage people, we have to be willing to give up some of our power in that process. We have to recognise that, yes, we have expertise in how to, within the archival profession or within whatever particular skills that we have, but they have expertise too. And it's about making that a conversation rather than it being one-sided. And I think we're starting to get better at that. And I think that that is a really positive thing that will make a difference and hopefully transition us away from being seen as that gatekeeper. Thank you very much. Right, question for Lisa. This is quite a long one, so forgive me reading it out. This is one that's coming through the Q&A. So Lisa, somebody has asked, with spontaneous memorials, at what stage should heritage workers consider trying to collect and how is this ethically and sensitively balanced with the needs of the community? They've also asked, as a conservator, what decisions do you have to make of preserving objects, for example, items that have been damaged from exposure to elements? And how much does that damage actually become part of the intrinsic property and story and part of the memorial of the event and of that object? Sorry, a lot of questions embedded in there. So throw that one over to you. Well, I'll see if I can answer some or all of it. So I personally have never had experience myself being in the field with rapid response collecting. 9-11 is an event that now we are celebrating, not celebrating, commemorating the 20th year anniversary. I really became interested in the history of collecting so around that event. So that was, you know, I think I tried to convey some of that history. Now those that were involved in it are actually curators of the 9-11 Memorial Museum previously, you know, they were at the New York Historical Society and other places in New York City. And at that time, rapid response collecting, you know, wasn't a term that was as much of a part of our lexicon. So to kind of go back to your question, I think that the first part of it is that it's an evolving process in terms of, you know, it being somewhat of, you know, kind of a field within museological practice. And it's one that I don't think that, you know, we can proceed, you know, with our individual, our expertise alone, you know, so much of what Nicola was saying is that, you know, and I tried hopefully to convey is that at each site, you know, where there's been a traumatic event, you know, you really have to involve, you know, those affected by it, you know, family members, your local community members. And it can be, you know, a very slow process or it can evolve, you know, in a different way. But there's never a right way and there's never a wrong way. But there is, I think we want to make sure that we open space for everybody to opine that has been impacted. So that is the first question. And I think, you know, that's when it comes into saying, you know, we love to have standards within our field and we love to have books to turn to. But I think that in this type of work, you know, we have to be okay with, you know, not having the perfect reference for everything because there is never going to be two situations that are exactly alike. And then the second part of it was about damage or challenges that are faced. And, you know, one thing that I did not bring up today is also that health, in addition to emotional hazards, you also confront health and safety hazards sometimes with dealing with this material because in the outdoor environment, you have perfect environmental conditions for propagating mold, as well as you don't really know the history of where things came from. So, you know, for example, obviously, and I didn't talk about it in terms of the recovered items from the World Trade Center, but those are many of them, you know, part of their resonance is because of the dust that covers them, and of course that dust is, you know, can be a human health hazard. So navigating is not just about the emotional context, but it's also kind of thinking about, you know, the object as a whole and sometimes looking beyond what, you know, your eye alone can see. And so I would say that, you know, these are really a complicated category. And I could probably talk for a long time, but I'll just quickly say and the last part of it is that, you know, damage oftentimes, you know, is a signifier of value when it comes to both, you know, spontaneous memorials and as well as recovered artifacts in an area that has been affected by, you know, a profound event, catastrophe, terrorist attack, whatever it might be. So it's thinking about object integrity as well as durability, you know, go hand in hand. And it is, you know, there again with that, there's never going to be a one size fits all approach, but you have to balance both of those and thinking about, you know, each particular object at hand. So, yeah, it's never very straightforward, but it's very rewarding to participate. Thank you. I wanted to use each of your papers to ask the other a question, Lucy, what I mean. So first of all, I wanted to ask Lisa, did you, you know, with respect to the kind of work that Nicolae was talking about, did you use kind of trauma practice? Did you, you know, to engage with both the communities who were doing the collecting, but also, you know, the archivists and heritage professionals who were collecting and dealing with incredibly distressing material? And I wanted to ask Nicolae the other way round. Obviously, you've talked quite a lot about some of the past collections that have caused trauma and you've described the ways and some of the approaches we can take. And I wanted to ask you, are you collecting now and is the kind of thing that Lisa was talking about, is that informing your own practice and the work that you've talked about when dealing with past collections, is that informing how you collect both now and in the future? So we'll start with Nicolae. Yes, certainly. So I guess I will say I don't collect anything myself because of the roles that I'm in. But certainly one of the areas that I think is really important that we keep discussing is collecting practices moving forward. And I definitely recommend Ira Tansy's article on No One Oes You Their Trauma, which she wrote last year when the pandemic was really picking up and kind of has a bit of a discussion around why do we suddenly collect items around trauma in the kind of immediacy? Often as archivists, I guess in that sense, when it isn't often part of our kind of core collecting mission, is it a response because we think the community will want it in years to come? Is it because it's something that the organisation more broadly thinks they need to do? So if it's a university archive or something, do they need to capture how the students are responding to the pandemic so that in the future they can reflect on that? And I think that's a really interesting conversation point there. But I think it can all tie in. And I think it's like, for my mind, around collecting practices moving forward. It's really around consent and whether people are, if they're willing participants and willingly giving their items to these collections, then I think that that can be a trauma-informed approach. But consent's cyclical and we have to be willing to recognise that in the future they might want those items back and we have to be willing to give them back, I think. And I think that that's really an important consideration when we think about the trauma-informed approaches and how we can use them in the archival practices. So I think there is a lot of overlap. But yes, I definitely think collecting practices moving forward and into the future is something that we really should be talking about in relation to trauma-informed approaches and how we can really work with people to do that. Because there's a lot of discussion here in Australia around the fact that the way we do archival practice, it's very colonial structure. It's not something that the indigenous populations here have traditionally recorded their indigenous knowledge and their cultures. And so when we say that we want to record that within our archives, it's potentially taking it away from the knowledge systems and the structures that would traditionally be in place and how they want to do it. So should we actually be assisting them to archive that material in the way that they want to within their community if we have technologies or ideas and systems that we can support them with rather than taking those items into our collections? So that's just a few of the discussion points. I want to come back to that because there's a question in the Q&A that relates to that. But I'll go to Lisa first and I'll come back to you, Nicola. Lisa. I'm going to be completely honest that this is definitely has been something that I've been putting a lot of work into learning about working with this collection because until you are responsible for the care taking of collection material of this kind, there isn't necessarily, as I said before, that much training around it or provided. But I think now schools are starting, and there's obviously through conferences like this which are just so wonderful, creating this really essential dialogue. And I'm so grateful for that because I really do learn so much from my colleagues as well as those outside the field. And with that in mind in terms of Nicola's work, we did have a fellow at the 9-11 Memorial Museum a few years ago whose area of study was this type of work. And so she really taught us a lot and I think got us comfortable with having some discussions that were a little bit outside of our normal box. And so I'm really grateful. Her name is Stephanie Arell and she's done a really tremendous amount of work. And has helped to kind of support our work in that way. And yeah, I think that it's with everything that we do and I think the reason why we love this field so much is because everything is about kind of a lifetime of learning and that we kind of open ourselves to the idea that there's always something else. And there's always kind of revision and there's always reconsideration because in time we look at history in different ways. OK, thank you very much. I have a couple of Q&A in the chat that kind of interrelates so I'm going to draw those together. So somebody has asked, how do we manage the expectations of families and affected persons? And this is probably more for Lisa if we can't preserve or exhibit all the material that they've trusted us with. But it obviously has enormous resonance for them but if you can't keep it on, you're kind of throwing it away. How do you manage that? What does it say? And it obviously links to the whole thing about who decides what you can keep and how that kind of whole power relation. But it also goes back to Nicola, what you were saying about again, what happens if people of the communities you're working with, it's about what to keep for how long, who decides. What if they decide that the material either is traumatic or they don't want it kept, for example? How hard are those conversations to have? Is it just about us starting to have the courage to go into those uncomfortable places and change our own practices about and then they know this must be kept? And somebody has, I've tried to scroll down, someone has made a comment, I think actually is it the, so it's not in the Q&A, it's in the chat, so I'm going to have to pick it up from that, saying Nicola, you've highlighted a really strong point in trying to make the collections custom and practice suit the culture of the indigenous people in the region. So there's obviously some real support for that approach. So I wondered if both of you could comment on the kind of challenges as a heritage professional on dealing with both those kinds of issues. Nicola, I'll go to you first. Yeah, I don't think it's easy and I guess that's why I tried to make that clear and I think trying to break it down can be one way of achieving that, but I think you did really hit the nail on the head when you said it's about us being willing to be uncomfortable because I think that that's a really important thing. Like I said, sometimes people don't want to engage with the archives or not just the archives with the libraries and the museums or whatever it is because we haven't, I guess, engaged back in past practices and it's now that we're changing those, that we're able to have these different conversations. And yeah, I really don't think it will be easy and I think that this is about better training, better education so that we're all supported together and that's partly why we came together for the community of practice because there was just so much happening across the world in different places and people still feel like they're really doing this alone and that can make it really, really challenging to then be the one fronting up to have those conversations and knowing that there are others out there doing it who have maybe successfully done it and like the end of the world has not happened and in actual fact, it's been a really positive experience can make a huge difference. And I've seen that with my work on Finding Connect and Things in relation to the redaction of records. We have lots of discussions around the archivists get to see the whole of the care leave or care experience person's record and then they decide whether to redact so remove information for privacy reasons and then that redacted record is what the person who requested that record who gets to see it finds and so often they're like siblings' names that taken out of it and why do we have the right to see that in full but they don't and I think having some conversations around that and we've seen some practices being able to do it unredacted and they haven't had any complaints there haven't been any problems with that process and so it's encouraging others to then take that step and go, oh maybe we can do that too and that's actually what the trauma survivors is what they want. So I think about engaging better with our communities and then we can therefore take those uncomfortable steps. Thank you, Lisa. Absolutely with that and I think there are just so many issues. This is such a complex topic for such a short period of time but one thing to say is that there are going to be why we aim to build consensus. There are always going to be moments where you don't achieve that and that's also part of this and with regard to I think with archives and museums and I don't have as much experience working in an archive the idea of collections, an exhibition may be a little bit different. So of course we are as caretakers of material people part of that is making it accessible that's part of the mandate of having a collection. We're holding these items for the public and so that they can learn from them and to make them accessible. So having the opportunity to show them and share them is of course something that we want to tell all the stories we can but of course within the museum field collections are always so much larger than time and space permits to show all of them. So at what point in time is an object's lifespan the most resonant in the terms of some of and a lot of these are very vulnerable objects and I know as a conservator sometimes with the curators I have conversations because if it's a work on paper, a work on paper an object that's vulnerable like paper and ID, I'll want to say can we have limits on the amount of time that this can be shown? If it's a narrative that's essential for a particular story and while rotation is an important thing sometimes that object that belongs to somebody in their lifetime perhaps that's the best moment to utilize that object. So it's not just thinking this is this kind of material we should rotate it off you, we should put it on view but it's also when is the most appropriate time in its history as an object to be utilized. And so the conversations that we have with amongst our cures within the museum environment or the archive environment are one thing and there's also been questions about a replica and what can you make a replica of as well as outside of the discussion I focus on spontaneous memorials but in terms of recovered items in terms of this type of work one thing that I struggle with is working with perpetrator objects which are in museum collections which we haven't talked about today. We give those in the same level of care to a certain extent in the fact that they are within kind of the revered kind of museum walls or archive walls but they're important because we have to tell all the sides of history to make sure that we are truthful to it and can be critical about it. I don't know if I answered everything but... There's loads to follow up on this but I have some questions about context which are absolutely fits with that. Sabi, I won't have time to ask them because we've got a couple... The questions are flooding in there's lots and lots of interest in this so we're running out of time. I'm trying to try and squeeze in another couple of questions because there are a lot of questions that I don't want to kind of deprive people of the opportunity to speak. So a couple of people have had a couple of questions around the subteria of obviously both Nicolae and Rania have talked about engaging with communities a lot and Nicolae have also talked about developing trust and breaking down perhaps people's perceptions of how archivists worked in the past and someone has asked how best can we kind of cascade this information about how to kind of implement good practice at grassroots and the ways that communities will understand and therefore start to trust archivists and engage with heritage professionals. And somebody else has... I'll wrap this one in as well. How can organisations support kind of volunteers and community workers and others that I think somebody mentioned Nicolae, you mentioned about working in the field as being often precarious. So again, how can we support? So two questions. How can we cascade the information at grassroots and work with communities effectively and how can organisations support freelancers, volunteers, community workers and others most effectively? So I don't know what we want to take that first. Nicolae, should we go to you? Sure. So I think around the precarious employment and how to support people, it's about giving everyone access to the same support, no matter which level of employment or engagement they have with the organisation just because someone volunteers for you doesn't mean they shouldn't get access to training or mental health support or you would tell them if they were going to touch a box on the shelf, for example, the physical processes around that making sure they don't injure themselves and things. And thinking about all these concepts that we've spoken about today should also be required training for people no matter what level they're engaging. So I think that's a really critical thing to treat everyone as an equal in terms of your employees. So that would be kind of one approach that I'd strongly recommend in that way. And then I think when we think about cascading in a grassroots way, I don't think there's one method to success. I certainly think the more open, the more transparent we are, the easier it is for people to engage with us and that thing can start the conversation. So I think that that's a really critical item. I encourage people to put more things on their work on websites because if people are nervous about engaging, they're often willing to look at a website, but that might be as far as they go, for example. But if you've got a really welcoming, accessible website that uses good language and things like that, that can be a really good starting point. And then I think it's about, like I said in answer to a previous question, us being willing to go into the community space as well. So not always requiring the person to come to us, but us getting out there and not just being like, you're only going to hear about this if you come to an archival workshop or something like that, but us being willing to go to the various communities if they're interested and do that support there. So I'll leave it at that, so Lisa can have an opportunity to respond. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Nicola. I think it's a complicated, all of this is very much an evolving process. And I don't have it handy, but I know that last year or there was a lot of conversation around, I believe it was ICOM's mission statement in terms of what a museum is. And maybe, I don't know if I used the word controversy, I didn't need to use that, but a lot of thought and consideration around it. And they had drafted a new potential statement that calls into question, really what our fields are about and what our role is and how we should be thinking about ourselves. And I think self-reflection is a really important thing because, and I think that what the new statement spoke to me and I'm sure you can find articles about that online, which I don't think was actually adopted, was kind of more of this dynamic kind of thinking and saying just because we've been doing things, I mean, the history of museums is not very long, right? And so, within it, this subset of history of this type of collecting in terms of it being something that is labeled or has a specific discipline is even newer within that. So, I think that in terms of relevance, relevance, which is one thing, but also kind of creating relationships that go both ways, require this constant state of self-reflection of not just our work, but kind of the larger kind of institutional role kind of within our world. So, yeah, I know that's kind of big to say, but I think it's true. Okay, thank you both. I'm going to, sadly, when I have to wrap it up now, there's still stuff coming in, and there's some amazing stuff on the chat and whether you get a chance to see that, you're probably not, while you're speaking, that people have been saying how empowering and inspiring and brilliant the session has been. So, enormous thanks to you both, but a couple of people have just said, finally at the end, where can we access the brilliant work you're doing? How can we take it forward? What should people do next? If you had to kind of suggest to people, they did one thing or two things, where can they access the stuff? What should they be doing? People want more of you both. So, what should they do to do that? And again, I'll take Nicola first and Lisa second and then we'll wrap up. There's webinars on this topic. There's definitely free content you can get. If you search for things like trawer-informed archives, you will get content. So, if that's kind of the angle that you're interested in, I do think just give it a Google, as a suggestion. I think the resources I mentioned did go into the chat. So, I do encourage you to take a look at those, because particularly things like the article and the online course and things, they have so many other references. And if you need access to anything, send me an email and I can send you the article or anything like that. Because, yeah, I think it's just such... I guess it's the early stages, I think, of this area. And there's only going to be more and more coming out. So, I just think keep talking, keep looking, connect with people who are interested and willing to have these conversations. And you're only going to learn and grow. And that's so important for all of us to keep doing. Great, thank you. Lisa, final words from you. I think that we have to just keep opening space for one another. And I know that as I was preparing this presentation, sometimes I do worry about how something... I say will affect people or what they might see will affect people. But I think that we have to be willing to put ourselves out there in these vulnerable positions and make mistakes to learn and move forward. And so I'm trying to be more comfortable doing things that I'm not comfortable with or sharing ideas that are developing. But I think there is obviously more being published in this area. And there are plenty of resources and people do... Trauma, collections involving traumatic materials are a community that really... We're a part of it, but nobody necessarily... It's not the one that you want to be in. We would hope that most things that we get to deal with are of a more positive human nature. But it's the reality of our world. And so I think that we have to begin to just reckon with that. And continue to move forward supporting one another. So, yeah, I just thank you so much. I've just been so enriched by this conversation as well. Just it's really been very powerful. And yeah, so anyway, I hope that we can all kind of connect with one another in other ways. Yeah.