 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always, we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Bihel. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kamasutra has to give. Welcome, Anvita. Thank you, Seema. And welcome to our podcast this week. And with that today, I am revisiting an old question, but with a slight difference. Now, as you know, over time, we have answered these questions many, many times about orgasms, about how my partner can't feel an orgasm or my partner during sex. She can't have an orgasm. What can we do? And as I said, we've responded to all this many times. In recent times, there's been a flood of these questions again, but with a slight difference where people are saying my partner feels a lot of pleasure when we have sex, but she can't have an orgasm. Or some women are saying, I feel very pleasurable, I feel really happy when we have sex, but I can't have an orgasm and it's making my husband feel really depressed and so on. So we're right back on that hamster wheel of I can't have an orgasm during sex. But this time, it's people actually saying that they're otherwise having pleasure, but not having an orgasm. So today, I'd like to talk to you about pleasure versus orgasm. Yeah, and I think that's such a valuable question because the obsession with orgasms is quite frustrating in some ways, you know, and I like the world where people, you know, to have a climax was like important for the man and then it was just about the sex and the journey and everything. And now the orgasm has become this big O which has to be has to be fulfilled. And I want to say the pressure is as much on men as it is for women because they carry this burden that if they cannot bring their partner to penetrative orgasm, then they're not good enough lover and they're not good. And they're not performing well. Yeah, and they're not performing well exactly. And the women feel the pressure, feeling like, oh, I'm not sexually there if I can't have a penetrative orgasm so there's something wrong with me as a lover. But so it's just this obsession with it. And the only one thing that I would want to start with it is penetrative orgasm is rare and really, really difficult. It is not something just because you watch it on TV and that's all that people show. And every movie, that's what the climax looks like. It rarely happens. And it is really difficult to achieve. So if you're out there and you've been trying and it's been difficult. You're, you know, you are a group of many who can't do it and so don't feel stressed about it. You know, I think what's really interesting is that when I years ago I started talking about the Kamasutra and I would talk about how, you know, in ancient times they said that a man's sexuality. The Kamasutra says the man's sexuality is like fire. A woman's sexuality is like water. They have totally different ways of being aroused their arousal is different their timings are different. Everything is different. And they had all this idea of building pleasure in different ways so that each one could feel the pleasure of intimacy. And this was something that was acceptable. It was understood come Freud, who says in the 1800s, the only real orgasm is the penetrative orgasm. And, you know, I thought that after all these years of saying that is not correct. And we've all, we all know it that we wouldn't bust in this myth by now. But if anything, this myth just keeps getting stronger. It's like, it's like some kind of tower that's getting taller behind us and imprisoning everybody was saying, No, this is it. You cannot have an orgasm hence nothing is okay. And how many times is one going to say that, look, pleasure is very different to orgasm. Yeah, and I've given this example multiple times there is, or author of the male sexuality, new male sexuality who speaks about actually I might get a book wrong but it's not my analogy it's out there. And he says that sex is like a dinner, you know, you don't go for dinner just to have dessert, you know, if the orgasm is the dessert, you don't go there just for the dessert, you know, there's a whole process you have the starters you have the main course it's the ambience, it's the conversation, it's the, you know, you're in the restaurant and how all of that feels. And many times if you've had an amazing time you actually might skip the dessert and leave. So, it is about the whole journey, and not about like the dessert, the orgasm is just part of the whole process of having sex and enjoying sex and pleasure. And it is just one aspect one part, and not like if you, if I had to imagine sex and it you know somebody said, Oh, I can get you to orgasm in five seconds so they would come orgasm done in five seconds would that really be fun if it was all about orgasm. Would that actually be fun or is it something about, you know, the foreplay the time that you, you know, used to have sex. That is what gives the pleasure and when it finally ends with an orgasm. But if you imagine the world where only orgasm was sex, that would be like short and sweet, but really short and sweet in some ways like five seconds and you're done. I'm boring and monotonous. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, so I just also wonder what people have in their mind in the way of orgasms. Like I said, we always say that a woman's orgasm or women's pleasure rather is like water. It takes a long time to come to the boil takes a long time to cool down. So if you are having sex today, it could be that your pleasure is still being aroused. And the journey is really fun. Like you said, you know, maybe I'm having a lot of pleasure. I'm enjoying this part. I haven't come to the boil yet. I might come to the boil three days later. I might have an orgasm then without even realizing and then take a long time to cool down again. And I always think that, you know, okay, the ancient Chinese texts, for instance, on pleasure were very much about the male pleasure. And there is this whole idea that even a man who's impotent, because they would wear these prosthetic dildos so you'd actually wear like a prosthetic over your penis so that you could strap it on and penetrate the woman. So you'd actually have the pleasure of going through that whole process as a man as a woman, your options are endless when it comes to orgasms between the fact that the Kamasutra says that every time the moon moves in its face, your erogenous zones move around your body. So you can pretty much orgasm at any point in your body. It says that before a man penetrates you, you should, the woman should have been brought to orgasm at least twice before penetration starts. So we could start with dessert and then go on to the main course. Frankly, I'm always happy to. I like desserts. I'm not talking about orgasms here. I'm actually talking about food, but I'm always happy to go to a dinner and literally just have dessert and come back. So you could start with that. But even when it comes to penetration, it says like, as opposed to the western viewpoint that we have one G spot. We say that there are 24 spots in certain points inside the vagina, which can bring you to pleasure. So we have 24 G spots, but each one is different. It's the one you press and you might feel really, really passionate and the other one gets massaged and it might make you feel like really mellow and happy and another one gets pressed and it might just make you sort of feel like you're in fantasy land and you know, sort of psychedelic land. Each one is different. And yet when I get these emails and I get these messages. I always homogenized it so it's all become the same thing. I have had sex. I am not having an orgasm. How do you know that you haven't had an orgasm. And yes, there are lots of people who write into me and say, how do we know that we've had it. Yeah, and I don't know whether you can answer that one. I'm not sure I know how to describe it but it is a very intense feelings and the way we describe it is that the map that the way it looks at it, it is something that you know you are, it's increasing if you look at a graph like it's increasing increasing increasing your feeling, and then it reaches a climax where it is the most intense you feel your vagina squeezing it it tightens little bit. If you feel a certain amount of pressure, there's a climax, and then it relaxes so that is, you know, a pretty simple example that people would say the intensity is different people would describe it. And poets and authors have described it in multiple ways so I wouldn't go into the creative zone. But what I will say is that orgasm can mean different things for different people because a clitoral orgasm is common, much easier. And, you know, it happens and the pleasure is not very different when people think, oh, penetrative orgasm is the best, you know, clitoral orgasm is not that far. It is very similar, you know, it is the same clitoral nerves that are encompassing your vagina and you know tightening it or squeezing it so you know the sensation of the feeling is quite similar, it is not. And so to have, you know, categories of what is better what is not as good and all is actually problematic because I think clitoral orgasm is good. You can also use vibrators and other thing to help your orgasm doesn't really need to be your partner and penetrative sex. And it actually I feel like it becomes like a pressure point where have I passed the test or not by thing so if the man is fading or I need to make my partner come through penetrative sex, then they're under pressure they're really not enjoying it. And then the woman's thinking, oh my God, you know, I better have an orgasm because he's going to try like crazy and then I'm not going to be so it feels more like a test than sex and pleasure. So I would honestly, you know, and I think it's really important to ask women if that penetrative sex is really that important to them, or are they happy with clitoral orgasms, or you know using a vibrator. Do they really want to come through an orgasm, you know, from their man like is and I would really encourage partners to ask that question to each other, because they'll be surprised what the women might turn around and say to them. Yeah, like you said it almost feels like you're a failure. If you haven't come during and also I find that because of films, and because of books, we have this weird kind of belief that both partners will come together. They'll come at the same time. Are you coming? Are you coming? I'm coming. Are you like, no, it doesn't happen. It truly, truly doesn't. It happens on such rare occasions and with such rare partnerships that you can't even begin to believe how rare it is. And let me tell you, majority of the time that's a coincidence. Unfortunately, the visuals of sex are only visuals of orgasm and you know that it will start with a kiss and end with an orgasm and and those are the two visuals that we are left with. And people start believing those are the two ways to have sex. And I really would encourage people to figure out what gives them pleasure and not worry so much about this because if you're enjoying sex, because that was your question when you started that there are these people who are saying, we really enjoy sex and there's pleasure, but I'm not orgasming. If you're enjoying sex, then don't worry about this because this will happen when it happens. It takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of knowing your body and your sexuality and knowing what excites you what, you know, really touches it and everything and it will get you completely turned on for that orgasm to happen. You know, it's so easy sometimes that you might have a momentum and you might get distracted by something and the momentum gets lost and then there isn't really time to build that momentum again but it doesn't mean you haven't enjoyed sex you might have still enjoyed sex. You might have still enjoyed the foreplay. And, you know, if we really think about orgasm from a psychological perspective, it requires a lot of letting go, it requires you to be vulnerable, it requires you to be out of control like not in control with your partner at that moment. It requires you to be completely vulnerable in that moment because you can't really control anything once the orgasm starts you can't really stop it right like it is and some people find that difficult you know and that is something that we speak about where people are unable to let go because they're actually unable to let go they're unable to be vulnerable so if we start digging there is a lot there psychologically which can you know we can look at but I think that is when it's an issue I think today. You know what used to be common vis-a-vis clitoral orgasms, oral orgasms and otherwise are now categorized as less than or not good enough and they're just causing more problems than actually letting people enjoy sex. I so agree with you and I know that we're doing this video and we're trying to be as categorically positive as we can by saying it doesn't matter it's not an issue it's not a race to the finish this is a journey it's a process. I have a feeling on whether that from tomorrow itself there's going to be more people writing and saying but I can't have an orgasm when I have sex or my partner can't and what should I do and I feel like a failure and my husband can't make me come and he feels like a failure and I know that this will start all over again but I really hope that even if five people pick up from here and say I'm going to think of sex as something joyous and enjoy it for the sake of enjoying it and not worry about ticking boxes because I'm not doing a test. I think even if five people come back and say I did it I will feel that we've managed to succeed in something. Absolutely as in my takeaway from this video would be know what gives you pleasure. If the process if the journey if you know just the foreplay is pleasurable to you or clitoral orgasm is pleasurable to you don't feel the pressure that it has to be penetrative orgasm like really just get to know yourself. And your pleasure the way you're enjoying it is good enough you don't really need to wait again somebody else's definition of pleasure and who are these people you know it is this visualizations of society and media. So don't worry about that and even for the men ask your partner. Is she happy with what is happening you know rather than taking on the pressure. Ask your partner and let her reply as to what gives her pleasure and does she really want that penetrative orgasm or would she rather just you know enjoy sex with you. I think that we have to make this a very very clear distinction that it's two separate things. Pleasure and orgasm can happen together but they're not the same thing. And the day that you understand that the day that that actually sinks in everything in your life will change hugely you will come to a better understanding of yourself so you know the next time you say. Oh you know I'm really concerned about my partner because you know we have sex but she can never come to orgasm and I'm feeling so terrible about it. Stop. Just understand that if she's having pleasure. That's the whole point of it. And for the women who have written into us and said, I enjoyed thoroughly but I can never have an orgasm and my husband is feeling really sad about his feeling very down. He's getting depressed about it. You need to be able to explain to them. Take on the owners of if you've actually written into us it means that you do follow us you do actually listen to our talks. Take this away from this talk that it's not the same thing and you can enjoy it pleasurably you can just have a lot of fun with it without it being some kind of standard that you have to meet. I agree and I hope people are listening and that will be the takeaway. It certainly will I am I don't know I guess I sometimes get really. You know I just wonder sometimes because we talk about something and then they come back to it and I realized that each person feels that their problem is individual to them that it's special and that nobody else is feeling it that it's unique to them. And I think that we would like to say both on that and I would like to say over here that you'd be amazed at the number of people who write in with exactly the same question, almost right down to the same words. So you are not alone in how you feel. And maybe from that you should understand that you're not abnormal. Yeah, this is actually the norm. Yeah, and as I was saying in the beginning that it's really really difficult for something like that to happen and what I had read once and I cannot statistically back it but I had read once that there are higher chances for older women to orgasm penetrating than younger women. And I have a feeling that that would be true because I think it takes a certain amount of comfort and letting go and less inhibitions and less pressure. And even when you become confident about your own sexuality, you know what you like you are able to enjoy, you know, the process in some ways and not worry too much that I can see that it happens more often because you know you just, you're just more confident in some ways and maybe as a younger person you're not. So it is something to think about like don't take on the pressure because I'm guessing most people think oh young women come multiple time but as you get older it's less, but it's actually the mid age women in their 30s and 40s that are higher likely to orgasm penetrative orgasm than the younger women. I guess coming back to the fact that the message that we're trying to leave everybody with is, as we were all saying that it's not something that you have to take a box with. It's not something that you have to pass a test with. And we also all come to the point of sex from a society that has put so many taboos around it. That suddenly on the day that you get married and suddenly go into a relationship that lifetime or those generations of DNA that have carried that taboo is not suddenly going to overturn and say, Hey, I am open to everything that it all come. So if you're feeling pleasure, it's fantastic. Take it slow, take it easy, enjoy it for what it is. As you build that up as you learn to take that as something special on its own and not as oh my God I'm failing because that's all I'm feeling. If you start to accept that your pleasure is a wonderful thing and that can build on that the rest of everything will follow but stop thinking of pleasure and orgasm as tests that you have to pass. Yeah, absolutely. And define your own pleasure like don't go with what these, you know, people are showing you as norms. Everybody's pleasure is different. So as long as you can define your own pleasures, then you know exactly what you were saying Seema, it doesn't become a check mark or I need to achieve this because your pleasure is your pleasure. And so just define it for yourself. I mean just imagine a world where nobody's having to fake it because they can actually do it. It'll be fantastic because they're actually just enjoying whatever they're doing. And this time as we sign off, I would like to say that I really hope, aside from having enjoyed the video. I really, really hope that you will take away this message, and you will use it in your own life and you'll actually let it sink into your life to make your life your, your intimate life better for you. So do think about it very carefully and try and see if you can unblock those, those points in your head that are telling you that there are all sorts of check marks and test standards to meet. Understand that pleasure is literally about you and how you feel. There is nothing defined or there's no bar for it. Everything, everybody's is individual. So I really hope that you're going to take that away from from this video. As always, if you enjoyed the video, if you feel that it's really been useful, do comment, like, subscribe. If you need to ask me a question, I am on info.seema.anam at gmail.com. And if you need to get in touch with Anvita about a consultation, she is on. You can find me on anvita.madanbehillatgmail.com and all the information will be down below in the link. In the meantime, take care of yourselves and stay very safe. We'll see you very soon again. See you soon.