 All right. Welcome everybody to the April 7th. I hope the ledger technical student committee call. As you are probably all aware, we have two things that you must abide by on this call. The first is the anti trust policy notice that is currently displayed on the screen. And the second is our code of conduct, which is linked in the agenda. So with that, let's go ahead and get started with the agenda. All right. So as far as our announcements go, we have the hyper ledger dev weekly developer newsletter that goes out each Friday to hundreds of hyper ledger developers. If you have something that you would like to have included in that newsletter, please leave a comment at the wiki page that is linked in the agenda. And the second announcement that we have is the hyper ledger global forum. Is currently got the CFPs open until April 29th. So you have a couple more weeks to get your CFPs in. As heart had mentioned last week, there's a call for program committee volunteers that is currently open. And I will let heart maybe talk about that because it's kind of hand raised. Thanks a lot Tracy. For most of you on this call, if you're interested in being on the program committee for the global forum, please reach out. We are looking for strong volunteers and, you know, the TSC fits that bill. So we'd love to hear from you. I will be reaching out to many of you that I think might be interested. Individually, but if you're interested, please, please feel free to go ahead and reach out and thank you for your time. Thanks heart. And then the last announcement that I put on here is just a reminder to review the poll request that is out there on adding a page on the TSC responsibilities that are now has so graciously written for us. So please take, take an opportunity to do that. Bobby. Yes, hi everybody. I just wanted to put this out there. The learning materials working group is formed a task force to do this. Best practices and standard documentation information. So if anybody has any articles or information that you think would be of interest during our fact finding two weeks which starts started on Monday. Please post it in our discord page. Thank you. Thanks Bobby. Yes, thank you. Hi everyone. I just wanted to say one more piece on the PR on TSC responsibilities. I mean, we, there are some, I mean, I think there are parts that are not controversial, but there are other ideas of addition. I mean, of course, you know, I expect this to be formally voted on by the TSC as a whole, eventually before this gets merged, but it would be best if people, you know, at a peak at it and, you know, see if there's anything that you think is missing or more importantly that you disagree with, because I mean, technically this is kind of what we're supposed to live by once and so it better represent what you think is reasonable for you as a TSC member, you know, to to to be signed on. I would, you know, as I said, I mean, eventually you I suppose you will have a say when you get to vote, but, you know, earlier input would be better so I encourage people to come and look. Yeah, definitely. Thanks. All right. Any other comments as far as announcements that people would like to make. No additional announcements. So for quarterly reports, we still have the Hyperledger Explorer quarterly report that we're waiting on I know there are discussions going on about the project offline to determine how best to move forward. So, you know, hopefully once we get some answers there will actually hear back from the Explorer team with what they're what they're planning. And then as far as upcoming reports, we have the cactus and the fabric reports that are due next week. And so just the FYI that those are coming up. So far as discussion items, I do not I'm not aware of any discussion items for today's TSC business. Please let me know if that is not correct. If anybody has anything TSC business that we should discuss before we get to the task force discussion. Let's bring that up now. I just have a quick question. Who is the Indian Blockchain Institute. We're trying to take. Thank you. Yeah, is this Kamlesh or. Yeah, so this is a future tech brand. Okay, we were just trying to take a role. Thank you. So any show. So they are not aware. No, there's no issue we were just trying to do the roll call for the TSC and we weren't we weren't sure who that was whether or not you were representing a TSC member. That's all. Okay, yeah. Yeah, you're more than welcome to stay for the meeting. Okay, just rename yourself Kamlesh. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say maybe it doesn't sound like. Actually, I logged in with that. Yeah, I just had some client meeting with that ID. No problem. All right. So any other TSC business that we should discuss. Just a quick one for me. I will have to leave at the house time. Okay, thanks Peter. All right, if there's nothing else, then Daniel, I guess I'm handing it off to you to walk through the task force discussion. Well, and I can share the screen or right. The screen. Here we go. Cool. So, today we're starting the projects gaps task force. This is a task force when we thought of the four main tasks force we're going to be rotating through this is one idea that I might think it's time for hyper ledger to consider apparently other TSC members to do with this commitment is one of the ideas to be listed for task force. And that is to figure out you know what projects are we missing in hyper ledger. So let's the performance parts, you know, make this official task force or task to be completed in a list of deliverables. So, the three things to complete our figure out first identify project areas hyper ledger would want to act projects that we don't already have. And two tasks I think are related to that and basically fall off of that decision once we figure out the scope we want for that one of them is to identify which labs project could fill in those leads those needs, and figure out which ones might need to get more support to as TSC members and to encourage other people to join. And the second one is possibly to identify other sources where projects maybe solicited from. Maybe we need to say hey we need a project in this area that doesn't have existing code and encourage people to start a new project of labs. Or maybe there's a project outside of hyper ledger that isn't attached to another group that might be willing to come in. I know that specifically how hyper ledger basic came in it was a project at consensus. And Brian came to us and asked us to come join at work. So that has been a path that's been been worked before. So the deliverables to affect these these three tasks. I think the first thing we need to do is we need to have a discussion about the overarching philosophy for the kinds of projects hyper ledger foundation wants to host this. Because there's been discussion like you know how to what extent we do to be read, you know, there's been statements by the TSC in the past we don't want specific applications we don't want to host like a commercial websites project that happens we blockchain as an open source thing that's out of bounds. But there's other things which have grown in bounds, such as the identity libraries that have come in that we're not necessarily part of the initial hyper ledger scope. So we should probably look before we, you know, get too entrenched in saying, you know, I want this project come on board, figure out what the boundaries are for the projects and we think are good fits. And also that might help us identify areas that are we think might be kind of full already, the notion of level one DLTs. We got already six of them, five of them now in hyper ledger for them are active projects. We don't necessarily need more but we might need projects that support interoperability. I think it's a hot area to run. So from that, we've got a list of specific project themes or areas from that philosophy. And we've also in that list, I think we'd want to include which current projects we have to fit into those themes to show what we have and that would better identify what the gaps are to show what we have that we don't have so we can fill in fill in the gaps, as the name the project that force, and then a list of labs projects that might be good fits to fill in these, these gaps, and list of affiliate unfilled needs that we would need to solicit projects for whatever means. I'm thinking of putting a time box on this of three months. So there's going to be three meetings in the, in the TSC and probably two or three off of Thursday meetings. So, to that end, the first thing I would propose is we would need to discuss when we want to meet on our off non TSC meeting because I don't think we can get all this work done just on three calls during the TSC. My initial proposal would be two weeks from now on a Tuesday at the same time of this call. Are there any other proposals of anybody would think a better time might exist going once. Does this conflict with anyone's project calls I guess is a good question. This is time. Nope. So don't when you share screen you can't see everyone's emojis that well that is one complaint about this. I think this is as big as possible. Cool. So the next, and I'll set up a zoom meeting for this on the call. You know, just in case you can't see Bobby you had your hand up to have something. No, I just wanted to say that time works for doesn't conflict. Okay. I'm not a hand. I think there was a thumb and then there was a thumb. Okay. So the next part we're going into this task where I think we get to more of the open discussion and just I don't, I can't drive home and I'm going to need a lot of help in this one, but people brainstorming ideas for what the Hyperledger project philosophy. We might want to express with this and trying to fill and then after that project areas he's kind of interoperate and overlap. I'd like to start initially with philosophy ideas and then move the areas we can move back important we need to, as we get some of those ideas. So, I'm calling for people on the floor. What are some good project philosophy area, you know what what are some bullet points is what Hyperledger project should fill not everyone at once. Or maybe what it shouldn't go what shouldn't we do. Jim. I feel like integration with public chains should be a major philosophy. I don't know that if that fits into this category of philosophies. That's either running because at least with our customers we see a lot of repeating patterns that using permission chains as site chains, but integrate with public chains to inject value back and forth. It's got to be pretty popular pattern. Happy to hear those from other other people. Peter. I would say that we could add the idea in there that if the project wants to come in. It's not necessarily a perfect match for our what kind of projects we want rule. But the project already has a substantial and big relatively big community around it, and also maintainers and also contributors. We should reconsider it, even if it's not exactly a match because at the other day for that project based on the community and the number of contributors and maintainers. We could say that the people have voted that this is something that should be worked on. And so, in those cases, I think we could relax. Project project acceptance criteria in terms of the relevance of it. And so is this a good statement of that large projects like the joining to left that are not a perfect match issue quote unquote for the philosophy. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure about the kinds of projects. But what is hyper ledgers for looking goal or no. I'm sorry, I'm not answering your question. I wanted to suggest that we may also want to set some limits. And, you know, I'll historically, for instance, we decided to stay away from all the cryptocurrency stuff. And we still want to enforce or not. And, you know, I raise it as a question I think is important to basically set limits if we have some, you know, explicitly state what we wouldn't want to do as well as what we are interested in doing. I mean there's plenty of stuff on the web three for instance, is that something we want to get in, or is that something we feel like no, we're not part of this. So, I wasn't very active the first few years of hyper ledger. I did the first few meetings and then took some years off. But when you say that hyper ledger initially stayed from cryptocurrency what did that feel like what was the direction of that. Maybe heart can fill that in or no. I wanted to let hot to speak. I mean, but you know from my perspective, it was at the time, especially it was felt like, okay, there is all this stuff about cryptocurrency happening already. And what we're interested in is really the, the blockchain for the enterprise use case, which was not so much cryptocurrency oriented. So, there was a clear intent not to focus on cryptocurrency, and we didn't want to be overwhelmed by everything that was already happening in the cryptocurrency space. So it was a, there was, I think an intent to kind of differentiate ourselves from all the crypto stuff. I guess, this is a pretty fine line though. So what, you know, I don't think there's, there's a strong line between running something and hosting software. But, you know, there's a fine line between, you know, what is a cryptocurrency and what can be used for a cryptocurrency and all of these things. So, you know, like is a central bank digital currency, a cryptocurrency, right, because we have a lot of, we have a lot of people building on our platforms for those. You know, so I think there's a fine line here. So do we distinguish between the software used to run the live network and the live network itself would be a Yeah, I think we always have their data side to jump back in. And like, if we want to actually, this is not just a hyperledger thing this is even like a Linux foundation why think if we wanted to actually run software we would probably have to get like everybody at the top of the LF to approve us. Right. Tracy's had her hand up for a bit. Yeah. So yeah, I'm curious as to whether or not our tagline is still blockchain for business. And if it is, then I think that's a place that we really need to say that the focus that we have is enterprise. So, I think that it's very possible that if you take us away from kind of the roots or the foundations of that blockchain for business tagline that you end up with a situation where hyperledger becomes a completely different organization that it is today. I'm not sure if that's what hyperledger foundation actually wants and the governing board wants per se right like I think those are important discussions and maybe discussions that it really do need to be had at the governing board if you're changing the machine or the vision of hyperledger foundation. And my point of this wasn't trying to down that line and trying to figure out how the philosophy works within the current charter vision, the blockchain for business tagline what that what that means. And that, because I think if we're going to change the Europe, I agree with you if we're going to change the whole basis of hyperledger that is a higher level issue and more of an existential question. To put some limits on this, I don't think we should discuss the existential, but how the current philosophy of blockchain for business, where we should go into that and what projects we should look for. I think our know how to hand it or did you have any more Tracy. No, I think that we may get to project areas I think maybe that'll clarify some of this as well. I think you were next. Yeah, I wanted to follow up on what hot said I totally agree with him this is obviously we never prevented you know anybody from building cryptocurrency system on top of the software that we are building. And indeed, there's a lot of project now in the space of CBDC, and, and that's totally fine. I think indeed the distinction was really the difference between building software. You just faded out or was that my end. I lost him as well. Yeah, sorry, I know we lost you there. I think you say the difference is between building software and building a network which I think is an important one to be completely losing. We completely lost him. No, we didn't. Anyway, but I think this point was made. Jim. Yeah, honestly, I don't think we have a real worry of being mixed up with cryptocurrency communities, because those communities will not trust a business oriented foundation like high pleasure for their technology. We've seen Hadera for example trying to do this right and I think their success is debatable. So I think our angle and to me it's always clear that we are interested in permissioned networks, but I think it's a unstoppable trend that permissioned networks cannot continue to run as silos, they are going to integrate with public networks where the, the value right the trillions of dollars of value exist, because that's how you engage with the general public for for value to flow into and out of your side chains. So I think, at least for me, it's, it's us embracing technology and then advancement in the public side and help our customers to to utilize them, rather than the other way around that we will build stuff for the for the public side. I think it would not be successful as a corporate endorsed entity to do that kind of thing. Okay. So I've heard a lot of discussion about cryptocurrencies and value networks and public networks are financially use cases the only use cases for this. I guess Nathan's probably jumping in to answer my question or do you have a different answer. I have a different comment but I also think that that's a really interesting question because part of what I, what got me to get into hyper ledger and was got me excited about it is the availability of experts who knew things I didn't know, or who had insights into the parts of the ecosystem that I wouldn't have thought of or wouldn't have seen. So one of the questions I have as we start thinking about, you know, what pieces might be missing are, where are there areas of expertise that we want to invite in or how can we get participation from more viewpoints that help us, you know, advance the platforms that are already here. You know, in particular we've recruited pretty hard from folks who were working on secure execution environments who are working on different areas of hardware based cryptography, we've recruited pretty hard for folks who would participate in various special interest groups that were use case specific, though those that haven't always translated into features for the core platforms that people have been building. I think those sorts of participants help make the project overall stronger. So, I don't know how we go about maybe brainstorming different facets of what what we're looking for. Yeah, just wanted to jump in obviously no one would be surprised when I agree with what Jim was saying about integration with public change in a priority. I think we should be really specific though about whose needs we're trying to meet here. I think, you know, Tracy raised a good point that you know our tagline has been watching for business kind of for a while but what what does business mean what what what is an enterprise who are targeted users because I feel like, you know that, you know, one type of enterprise will have very different needs and another type of enterprise. So, you know, just a full philosophical question and don't have a good answer at this point but just want to make sure when we're thinking about what we're trying to attract or what, what is our you know gap analysis, you know, let's be sure we know it's meeting, you know the audience or the user that we want. Awesome yeah so thank you to Jim and grace for the comments. And I just wanted to hear what you all thought exactly was meant by integration with the public chain. You know integration is one of those things like Web three that, you know, means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I'm curious if you, if you if both Jim and grace could elaborate a little bit more on what they meant by that. Yeah, sure. I can give some of my opinions. So, to me, when a, we have a lot of customers that are building sort of permission chain based defy scenarios, you know, it can be writing smart contracts for a financial instrument, right. Using or using fractioned fractionalized ownership to represent some real estate, for example, that's all done in the side chain. Once that's become successful they want to engage the general public to open this up to more to a much wider audience. And the best way to do that is allowing people to deposit their public tokens, you know, theorems or, you know, any of the tokens that runs on your as an example salon or other side chain, other layer one public chains, and then exchange the tokens inside their permission side chain, and they can so they can participate in the investment investment opportunities they built in the side chain. And then once they've gotten some proceeds, you know, they want to withdraw so they can, you know, realize their their gains. They will withdraw and then they exchange back to the cryptocurrency and now they they they have more money going out than coming in. So that's that's a pretty popular pattern we have been seeing with enterprise customers, sort of growing up and then realizing they they they they have this great technique, or architecture to use so they can engage a huge amount of public that holds cryptocurrency. So that's kind of the main pattern that I had in my mind. Hope that helps her. It does thanks for the good explanation. Just to jump in, I just wanted to echo. Sorry. I just wanted to echo Jim described well exactly what I was thinking I think the bridge technology and side chains is a major piece of it. Yeah, so I just wanted to raise another point so whenever we would like to think and work for the rods, standardizing the, the, you know, the protocols, the structure and the things that we are doing, you know, we drink a lot of respect to crypto. I mean, the cryptography protocol, for example, hypervisor Ursa, there are a diversity in blockchain projects like your fabric south of Europe and etc. And it seems like you know we have pretty strong background and pretty strong community. I'm just wondering why, well, I'm not wondering I'm just trying to propose whenever we would like to consider thinking towards starting to standardize part of the protocols that we are developing so you know, whenever it makes sense to do anything with this. So back to the question I proposed before we went down the loss of experts in the various parts of the ecosystem one question. Before we move on to areas that I don't think I got to get answered for. I asked the only use case because that's, I know there's been work on on fabric for supply chain stuff. And there's like some energy projects that we have in labs. I wanted to know what people's thoughts were is fine that's the only use case that blockchain for business should be addressing are there any other use cases that might be, you know, useful maybe that's a nice bridge into the project areas. Karen. Karen Tamit down, Nathan. Well, I say that the digital identity folks do a lot more things than just fintech. So, certainly there's a lot of different areas of interest there. We could probably just make a list of the SIGs that are active and have a fairly good set of participants outside of just fintech. I was going to second your comment about supply chain I think that is first class use case. Where's the list of things hide. It's not very. Yes, the real question is where the active six. Are the nine listed on the high pledge website representative. Yeah, they're in the front of the wiki page. Anything that's. I guess there have been mergers to some of those exciting recent times. There's eight now because supply chain and trade finance got merged. I'm at market cap climate action capital market governance risk and compliance health care media entertainment public sector supply chain telecom. Okay. The six is the probably one of the things we should focus on and making sure that we have projects that might interest them. So maybe we should add that to solicits the six as well. Any closing remarks on the philosophy before we pivot over to project areas. I think another basic one is focus on frameworks rather than applications. I think you're going to take comments. Go ahead. Question are probably a comment right so last year we've worked on rewriting the charter for hyper ledger and we introduced the term called multi party systems. And should be. And I don't think so we have been very actively seeking for projects in these areas. And we probably need to look for what this means. So to me, I don't know when I think of multi party systems it comes as what would enable for somebody to build a system that could allow them to interact with their partners or their business partners right. But it could go into the way of like implementing some data standards or having specific solving, I mean having built as a problem, a framework, which would solve a specific scenario or with specific which could solve a specific domain area of problem statement. And stuff that synthesize for our meeting on the 19th. Great. So let's, with what we brainstorm so far with the philosophy without formalizing and synthesizing it. Maybe we could start just listing up project areas that we might want. Doesn't have to be within the philosophy or it could be well within the philosophy but let's just start listing them and see see what the direction gets from that. And then once there is one private to hyperledger what would you want it to be that we're not what we don't have right now. Everyone's got to have that idea in their head what would it be. I have just randomly thinking so at least one of the problem that we end up building in most of our solutions is a way to trace what's happening on a blockchain network across the entire network. What are some of the things you need to trace. And how we define the trace is pretty much subject to let me see if I can define it generically. The final characteristics of what you had to build in the trace. We can define it later. Yeah, take some time to think so. Okay. Tracy. I think we have a lot of tooling around our different sorts of layer one or one guilty. I think, you know, talking through tracing to me what that brings up is, you know, expanding the ability to monitor and we're already doing some automation with devil, but just continuing to build that out for all of our projects not just for a single one. Right so having those kind of cross project tools for for monitoring I guess is where I'm at. So monitoring automation deployment, I know that will does that. But we can list what we're currently covering to try and get a feel for what, what our plate should look like you know what are the, what are the, what's the food pyramid for blockchain. Jim. I think we can really do with a standard collection of token implementations. It's such a useful construct, both functional and non functional. I know the fabric team have. I think at least one, maybe more labs. But just feel like we can, we can have more prominent implementations like in the ethereum world opens up in this and no bringer go to for high quality implementation for these things. Something like this would really help many customers who end up writing something themselves, if it's, it's a, if it's on fabric, or one of the other DLTs that are not ethereum based. Yeah, and I think about ethereum is you're only really got, well I guess you can have some of the other aspects of it, but you only got the best for fungible and non fungible any of the other interesting token taxonomy bits. Oh, because that one does have some, but not all. Cool heart. I'm going to dream really big here. I'd love to see a common consensus interface. And, you know, implementation of modular consensus algorithms. Big idea so the fences I like it. Jim, did you still have your hand up. Okay, Nathan. In the digital identity side we've always thought about self organizing namespaces, and can we make it so that possessing some verifiable information qualifies you to share state or process state in a in a shared namespace so instead of thinking about the system as side chains think think about it more as more more like global storage so there's some interesting ideas to explore there I think the other big audacious goals. It's not going to be accomplished in three months is going to be like for your projects we can start a project that we talked about kind of is, can we use blockchain to make decentralized development more self organizing. Nathan is this reinvent GitHub is blockchain item. I guess I think it's taken a couple of tracks that didn't lead very, very to much, but there's a bunch of paths that, you know, we're discussed on the after hours conference tracks so to speak that we haven't tried yet. And I think I haven't been almost after hours conference tracks but it makes me wonder if things like data availability, or like some of the big issues that would be presented there because you got more than terabytes of data. You've got you know, approaching an exabyte of data on some of that. How would we share that. Still needed. Yeah, I think, I think that we missed missing one potential use case from the list. Centralize digital identity. The list that you have here. So we're missing. What projects might help in decentralized digital identity that aren't well even if they are here. What's the scope what's the, what's the food pyramid look like for a decentralized digital identity. Well, there's a lot of pieces of what trust over IP is defined as the decentralized digital identity stack that are already here. We don't do as much on the edge agent or the individual's identity wallet and hyper ledger, as we might want. We also don't do as much work on peer to peer cryptography cryptography based API's that the Aries protocol work kind of has pushed a lot of interesting constructs around how you can do, you know, peer to peer digital information sharing and how you can do dynamically composable API's through that sort of infrastructure, and there's probably more we could both investigate and share about what's been going on in that area. Okay. Tracy. Enterprise wallets for both. For any type of asset, he then verifiable credentials or tokens. Yeah, I guess just. Can I go. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, just add to that the idea of enterprise wallets and PC based wallet that I think it's kind of these days is a must for custody type of scenarios. And PC. Yeah, multi party compute. Now it's a little weird on my headphones is like non player characters. Now multi party compute. Yep. Nathan. There's probably a whole class of enterprise tools integration issues that we should have on our docket for projects where whether it's integrating into conventional authentication systems integrating into, you know, business object systems or, you know, all those sorts of things that we could probably make a big list of from everyone's internal architectural roadmap debates. Yeah. What's the track load transform. Ctl. ELT and ETL there's there's both approaches to it. Extreme way to do the transformer for after some people get excited about doing it before some after. So, looks like we got a good list here. So I think that the next step for this, this task force. We could go on for 12 more minutes brainstorming but I think we've reached a critical mass of some of these ideas. So on the, on the 19th, I think we need to try and synthesize some of the things out of this. I guess you can add one more point to enterprise tools integration. Most of the times it may so happen that so when we talk about authentication. We eventually need to deal with the blockchain. Blockchain layer itself right and let's say somebody is working on multiple protocols. They may need to deal with different types of key management that each blockchain has to go through. And since hyper ledger. Most of the frameworks built does provide a permissioning feature. If it would be nice to have a common, common integration point for that as well. Any other last minute ads. Just a question when you say active projects blow you mean graduated projects. Okay. You use the word active earlier and the way it the way you said it I wasn't quite sure whether you meant, you know, people were contributing to it actively or if you may graduate so just, just wanted to verify. So, I mean all of them actually, because the activity of a project might give insight as to maybe they're close but just a little bit off. Maybe we need to restart that project or we need to restart with a slightly different charter. So that might be worth looking into. I think there's also cases where some of these items probably are covered by the project but we haven't publicized what's going on there very well. Yeah, because I think that's very insightful because it might not be that we don't have a gap is that we don't know that we have something to fill that gap. So I encourage everyone to read over this, those who want to participate in formulating the philosophy and the areas and help identify the gaps. Feel free to contribute to this page, edit the comments. And from this will in two weeks time we'll come back and we'll try and synthesize the themes so when we come back against the TSC. We can discuss the themes make sure it lines up and then start identifying where these projects line up and what the gaps really are, and what we would want to fill those gaps, I think is where we want to come back in four weeks time and two weeks time back from synthesize that. So I encourage everyone I will send the when I get the invite out later today I've got a Thursday is my big meeting day so it's going to be a while before I can set up the the invite to send it out when I send it out, you know, so please please attend the meeting if you want to help synthesize and then categorize these these brainstorming items. That will be it for the day. Make good use of the extra time thanks for keeping the agenda light. Thanks guys. Thanks everyone.