 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. And of course, moving on to our first major conversation this morning, the presidential, a presidential as part of the African Democratic Congress, Professor Kingsley Mugalu yesterday attended his resignation of his membership of the party. And he shared his letter of resignation on his Twitter handle. It went viral last night. And later obtained from his Twitter account, it was addressed to the party's national chairman, O.K. Raphs Mugalu cited alleged infractions from the party's presidential primary election as reason or his reason for leaving. Reports have it that the former presidential candidate of young progressive party in the 2019 general elections was defeated, as just concluded, primary election in ADC in Apigoda. We actually did talk about that on this program last week. Now, while the winner of his primary, Dume B. Kachikou, who was previously not widely expected to win the primary, he scored 977 votes. Mugalu poured 589 votes to come second. Now, Mugalu's resignation letter read in part, quote, I'm writing to hand in my resignation of my membership of the African Democratic Congress effective immediately. He went on to say, quote, I have resigned because the process and conduct of the party's presidential primary on June 8, 2022 at Abeokuta revealed a fundamental clash of values between me and your leadership of the party. Talking to Raphs Mugalu, he said, quote, despite the secular, you issued a few days to the primary committing the party to providing transportation and accommodation for delegates to and in Abeokuta, which, as we agreed, would provide a level playing field for all presidential aspirants. The party under your leadership has failed to do so, he said. He continued by saying, quote, some aspirants, including myself, made donations to the party's account as requested for this purpose. This failure, which appeared intentional, created room for massive abuses of electoral processes, including delegate capture and financial inducement of delegates, he said. So that's what was contained in that letter. Mugalu didn't disclose his immediate political step or future, but he blamed his last to quote, cash and carry politics is what he said in the letter, cash and carry politics. And he revealed that his former party, which he joined in 2021 was not a credible alternative. If you added, quote, this is only one of the numerous inconsistencies and absence of transparency and predictability in the management of the party that I had progressively complained about. He went on to say, quote, as you're well aware, I have consistently resisted the process of pressures to join the El Progressives Congress or the People's Democratic Party precisely to avoid cash and carry politics for me to remain a member of the ADC. Therefore, after what thousands of party members participated in Abuja or in Atabeokuta, rather, would be to endorse political corruption of a most obscene order. Very strong words coming from Mugalu, of very most obscene order, he says. We'd like to bring at this point, public affairs analyst and indeed a member of the El Progressives Congress. It's actually the candidate of the party in the governorship elections in Aqabam State, the architect Ezekiel, yeah, I took. Good morning to you architect, thank you very much for your time. Thanks for having me, did I hear you say El Progressives Congress? African Democratic Congress, since you apologize for that. But it wouldn't be a bad one, if you were with... It would be a bad one, it would be a bad one. All right, I mean, you have been, you've been front and center of the processes of the African Democratic Congress, at least I know before now, and indeed with the party primary and all the activities they're off, I mean, so you, in the media, as the executive of the party took Kachidumebi, who is the presidential candidate, to go see Baba, former president of Lusiegumati, a Kikiola, a remote messenger, at his abode, then a Beguta. So you know what's been going on. Indeed, you were part of those who oversaw the counting of the votes. What are your thoughts, what's your response? Ask an individual member of the party who was seen on national TV, helping oversee the process that Kingsi Mogalu has described as obscene. What are your thoughts on his resignation? First off, let's start from his resignation before we go to the content of his letter. Yeah, first I feel really sad. I feel very unhappy. I feel a torrent of emotions on the negative for more reasons than one. I am the person that brought Professor Mogalu into ADC. I was the one. I am also a member of the Board of Trustees of ADC, African Democratic Congress. And number three, I've been a personal friend of Professor Mogalu for over 30 years and not just a personal friend at a family level. We are friends. So the discussion that I'll be having today is going to be an extremely difficult one for me because I need to be able to balance out emotions while presenting facts that I will wish the media will interrogate because what's happened is very unfortunate. I think that for more reasons than one, I wouldn't say it shouldn't have resigned because if, for instance, he has another offer, one of the conditions would be that you resign. But if you are resigning, you could easily say for personal reasons. And when you make such horrendous allegations, I just wish, you know, this is something that was not done in the dark. It was not in the cover of darkness. It was done in the glare of the media. And for him to say the things that he has said about a party that we've worked so hard to ingrain certain values, I feel very unhappy, extremely unhappy, but I'll try to make my points in a way that will also make me understand that he's a man and that anybody who loses an election needs to vent his emotions. It's just that we need to have control and make sure that such events are factual because, you know, you could win a temporary victory, but posterity and time is going to reveal whether you were right or wrong. So concerning his resignation letter, I wish he didn't have to. But being, if he has a better offer, it might be in his best interest to resign and then latch on to it. But if it's that he has no offer, I think that as we've discussed, for more reasons than one, you know, let me just take a little aspect. If you read part of that letter, he talked about people that he's downline that are gotten tickets. If for the, as a leader, if for the sake of these people that you brought into the party and they have gotten tickets, nobody knows John or James or Jonah. People know ADC. How do you think that those people are going to feel when they've invested so much and they are going to go into an election and then you are telling the whole world that the party's absolute rubbish. What have you done to your members? What have you done? How do you think they are feeling right now? Let's continue. All right, interesting. So are you saying that Professor Kingsley Mogalu's allegations are false? Because he talked about cash and carry politics. And this, therefore, this somehow suggests that the primary was not free and fair, that delegates were paid by Dumebika Chiku to vote for him. And he does not even, he can't even bring himself. Kingsley Mogalu cannot bring himself to call that a party primary. He says, after what the thousands of party members participated in at Abeukota, you can't even call it a primary. So the allegation here is that there was inducement of delegates for votes by Kachiku Dumebi. Let me tell you this. And I'm going to be as, you know, I do regular reviews on this station. So I'm putting my reputation on the line. And I'm talking as somebody who was there beginning to the end. Yesterday in my office, the delegates came to my office crying. The delegates from my own state and please ask for your correspondence. The list is there, I can make available to you. They came to my office crying that they could not buy bread on their way back for their families. They could not buy bread on their way back to them. I'm saying this on my honor, on my integrity. The delegates from Aqai Bum state where I was the main person, I was the agent of Mr. Kachiku. They could not buy bread because I only gave them 7,000 Naira, seven. I gave them 1,000 on arrival for them to, I mean, get themselves together. I gave them 5,000 during the day for them to eat. And I gave them another 1,000 when they were going for them to buy things on the way. 7,000 Naira. If that is the vote buying, then maybe I'm guilty. But that is what I gave them. And I don't know how I would have taken them to Abe Kuta without giving them money to eat food. That is number one. And please, I'm saying this on national television and I want people to prove me wrong. Secondly, my camp that I took there was split in three. In three, my camp was split in three. Some went to a particular candidate. Some went to Kingsley Mohalu himself, Prof. Do you understand me? And the other stayed with me. Those who stayed with me under the baby Kachikus camp got nothing except this amount of money. But before we left in the morning, I went to them and I said, I gave my phone to my chairman and I said, this is my account. Please read there is an inflow into my account. And he read, I say, read it out to everybody. And I said, these are four bosses. They have been hired by Mr. Kachikus. To take you there, there's accommodation and to bring you back. This is not my money. This is by this man. And that is all he did, provided transports. I showed them their account balance, my account inflow. I showed them the bosses which they arranged themselves and the amounts just tallied. Now, what is the crime? As a BOT member of ADC, it was as if I was a presidential candidate. I was concerned about the number of delegates we were going to have. From a Kwaibom state alone, we had 73 delegates because we had two delegates from each local government and we have 31 local government, which is 62, plus 10 statutory delegates with Medi-72 and myself, Medi-73. So for this number of delegates, I asked the national chairman and the national body, how are we going to handle this? We don't have the capacity. Can we trim it down to about 10 per state? It was too late because that was what was in the constitution. All the aspirants were encouraged to assist in any way possible to bring delegates down there. He did. They were encouraged to give accommodation. He did. And at the end of the day, there were 12 candidates or 12 aspirants and they were seated in front. No other person has made this level of wild, horrific, horrendous, horrible allegations about ADC. You see, there are two things that you must understand. If you get into politics, the first thing you do is you study the game. Every game has its rules. Delegates are different from general election. Delegate election is different from general election. You can go on the media, you can go on Twitter, you can go on, you know, all this and help to propagate the issues of the party and build a party amazing. But you do that more when you are a candidate as a delegate or as an aspirant, what you do is find out who are the delegates. You go to the delegate on that night, the night before the elections. The person that I worked with, Mr. Kachiku, he was all over the place. He hosted 1,600 delegates for hours, openly there. Every aspirant was at liberty to engage the people. And it is on record. While he was engaging them, he told them, I have worked my numbers. I'm not going to give somebody a dime because people are watching me. Some people started crying there in the hall. Since I can't say that, how are we going to do this? How are we, we don't have this? He said, listen, listen. The party says we must not pay a dime and I will not pay a dime. And I want you to go and find out. Mr. Kachiku only gave 5,000 Naira to all that delegates. Why I paid in Aqaibom? I said, look, I'll take you to Aqaibom. 5,000 Naira, that I know. If he denies it, I'll tell him I know. And he said, give them money to eat lunch. And it was general. Anybody who was there, collect it. He had engaged this group. He went to the north, the south, the east, the west. Within a period of one month, he went to all, he hosted all the executives. He went around. And I think this is a natural thing you do as an aspirant. So to now come and talk about the level of fraud and these and that that we're done, if anything, if anything, you see, I'm trying very careful to be, to act wisely. Because my brother, Professor Kingsley and Mokalu had the ticket of the party in his hands. He had the ticket of the party. People loved him. People appreciated him. I spoke to him one-on-one because we've been friends. I said, look, engage these people. Even the aspirants, all the aspirants, none of them was desperate. Engage them as big brother. Talk to them. Engage them. You've been there before. They are looking after you. Please engage them. Don't make them feel for any reason in the world that you don't think they are relevant. If you don't engage them, some people are going to say, I can go for this. Why can't I? Nobody in that whole mix was in for a do or die thing. Nobody. And there are details. I actually linked the media to go into setting details of the things that transpired before then. While you are in the media, which is good, others are meeting the delegates. So by the time you are in the hall, they are seeing you for the first time. They are hearing you probably for the first time. But somebody else has hosted every executive in every state of the federation. If that is the financial advantage, then I would not hold them, I would not begrudging. But to say that there was any level of financial inducement during the primaries, nothing like that happened. And I say this on my integrity and on my honor. All right. Interesting. You've made quite a number of points. Architect Ezekling Eituko, which we would note. But I think you've wondered the highlights. You said you were sort of the agent for Dume Bika Chikuwena Kwaibom state, I believe. Or was it throughout the entire, you know, primary to all the states? Throughout. So you were his campaign manager? Ah, no, I was his agent at the primaries. At primaries, okay. All right. So you're saying that you paid 7,000 Naira to delegate some Okaiba mistake for after they complained about the fact that they had no bread to take back home, that you supported them with transportation and feeding of 7,000 Naira as the agent of Kachidu, maybe. All right. And the reason you're saying this is that these are some of the ways to engage the delegates to ensure that they feel a sense of belonging. That they eat. All right, you're right. Okay. That they eat. So 5,000 Naira was for feeding for the day. And I don't, if that amounts to bribe, then I'm guilty. Oh, okay. So it was 7,000 Naira, 5,000 Naira for feeding, and 2,000 Naira. As they arrived, I gave them one 1,000 Naira to get drinks and things like that. During the day, I gave them 5,000 Naira. And when they were about leaving, I gave them one 1,000 Naira. Okay, that's seven. Is this apart from the 5,000 Naira you said and Kachidu gave every single delegate for lunch? No, he didn't give a Kwaibom. I told him I would take care of a Kwaibom. I told him I would take care of a Kwaibom. So he gave all the delegates 5,000 Naira for lunch each. He made that provision for anybody who was interested. He made that provision. He made that provision for anybody who was interested. Bogalu has pointed out that the all-progressive, sorry, African Democratic Congress issued a secular a few days to the primary, committing the party to providing transportation and accommodation for delegates to and in Abeukuta. And that all the aspirants agreed to this. To provide a level playing field for all the presidential aspirants. And that they actually had to contribute to the party's purse, the party's account, as requested by the chairman of the party and agreed by all of them. Is this true that all this agreement? Very, very true. But you are giving half information and it's not good for a man like himself. I'll tell you the full information. The party insisted every effort was made to ensure that this was a level playing field for everybody. To that extent, the party did issue a secular that the party will take everybody to the venue, pay for the accommodation and demobilization. They did say so. Why, why, why was this necessary by the party? Yeah, because somehow we felt that people will not be able to come on their own. Do you know? For instance, from a quai boom, let's take a quai boom for instance. For you to go to, on your own to go to Abeukuta, you spend close to 20,000 Naira. Come back about the same thing, that's about 40,000 Naira. But in groups, it comes about 30,000 Naira. You now pay accommodation, that is going to be maybe about another 10,000 Naira, depending on where you stay. That's about 50,000 Naira. Now, when you go for that convention, you are paying 50,000 Naira and we make sure you get nothing in return and you go back as a loyal party member. That was what should ordinarily be. Okay, was this decision by the party to have such a unified contribution by the aspirants to support delegates' transportation and feeding for the primary convention? Was this also to guarantee level playing field so that nobody is able to outspend your... That was, yes. That's to tell you the extent to which the party went. Why was it important to guarantee such a... Why was it important for the party's estimation to guarantee such a level playing field? We're not, no candidate is able to spend, but rather the party's... Because of what we call the ADC DNA, where transparency and accountability are the holds, man. Go and look at ADC from inception. Look at the presidential aspirants that we've or candidates we've had all along. We believe in integrity. We believe in fortrightness. We believe in openness, transparency. We set up ADC as a different vehicle, different from others. Now we have... But this is not what happened. That's not what... By the time the party did that, everybody came back and said, we don't have the money. The chairman said, no. Let me call the aspirants to come and make pledges. Some aspirants didn't even pay for the form. Only about two or three of them could pay. And they all paid. I know that Mr. Mohalu paid. I know that Mr. Dumebe paid. I know that Mr. Moye paid. But when you put it together, all could not even bring one-tenth. Because by the time you put, say, 10, 10 million, you realize that what you have is about 30 million and the budget is about 250 million. So the convention was going to fail. What about the general donations? It wasn't up to that? No, there was not enough... Do people generally donate? I mean, this is Nigeria. People go to take. They don't give. It's a culture that we need to start to bring on board. So at the end, all the aspirants themselves felt, look, let's assist however we can. And the party said, go ahead. And he did. He did. He brought in some people. He provided an accommodation. He had a camp. The difference was this the last day is that you need to be a politician to engage. That was not the day for text messages and being in the hotel. It was the day for you to be in the field and take photographs, take selfies, network with the people, interact with the people because these people are seeing you for the first time in their lives. Mr. Dumebi did that. He was in the hall till 2 a.m. And it wasn't a private place. It wasn't a secluded place. It was a place open to everybody. Okay? He did that. And that just created that nexus. It created that affinity between him and the aspirants. And a lot of these people don't, are not on social media. For instance, the people that I brought from Akwaibom to per local government, many of them are not on social media. Many of them don't watch DSTV and all these other things. They don't know. So they were seeing the people for the first time and they're like, oh, this guy has capacity. Oh, this guy is a guy. The guy, he related, he mingled with the people. If Professor Mohalu had done that, he would win. Okay, so architect, architect. You're saying that the delegates voted overwhelmingly for Kachiku because he met them a day to the primary and took selfies with them. That is politics for you. That is why people, I'm telling you, please listen to this. That is why you find politicians going to eat corn. That's why you see politicians going to fry Akara. It's unfortunate. But people relate to the things they can see. So is this, therefore telling us that the ADC is not different from other parties where politicians can't, sorry, sir. Can I please land with my question, please? Sorry, architect, sorry. Can I please land with my question? Is this, therefore, saying that the ADC is not different from other political parties where you can hear a candidate saying gibberish but he will still end up winning because he has a structure because he went to eat chew corn with candidates. Not that the best idea or the best presentation or the best man for the job will win at the end. Is the ADC any different from PDP or APC, therefore? I will answer you directly. That is almost an insult on the 11 or 12 aspirants. All of them were brought before national television to pitch. And my brother, all of them showed they have what it takes to be a president. Or on that day, all of them were brought back to pitch. And I will tell you with every sense of responsibility that any of those people, a minimum, let me be a lot more fair, a minimum of 50%, at least by my own judgment, a minimum of four of the aspirants caught nothing less than 70% in terms of competence, capacity, capability, character. So what was the tiebreaker? What was the tiebreaker? The tiebreaker was being able to connect with the people. That's what politics is about. You've got to connect. Leadership is connecting with the people. Leadership is connecting no matter how good your vision is. If you cannot, that's leadership, leading. If you are going and people are not following you, you're not a leader. So you're saying that the way that may be connected with delegates was, of course, in supporting them in ensuring that the lapses that the party had in terms of organization and for the transition feeling were covered. And in also meeting with them, engaging them one-on-one in taking selfies with that. So if Kachiku, sorry. For just taking selfies, he had over three hours engagement with them in the hall. He was with them till about 2 a.m. Architects, are you aware of, to your knowledge, was dollars shared to these delegates? Have you heard or are you aware? Let me ask. How will dollars be shared and my own acquired-born people don't have, no matter how small? Architects, I ask you again, are you aware of any... No. Dollars were shared? Not in Dumebis Camp. At the African Democratic Congress presidential primary? Not in Dumebis Camp. I'm not aware in Dumebis Camp. Are you aware that dollars were shared? I'm not talking about... I'm just asking, are you aware that dollars were shared at the ADC primaries in Abe Okuta? Honestly and sincerely speaking, I don't think that dollars were shared, not even by other... Are you aware if dollars were shared, where dollars shared at the ADC presidential primary? I'm not aware not even by other aspirants. So can you say with all confidence that no aspirants, no presidential aspirants of the ADC shared US dollars to candidates? I cannot say. But I can say with every sense of responsibility that Mr. Dumebis Kachiku did not share and to the best of my knowledge, other aspirants to the best of my knowledge did not share. Alright, so are you saying it's possible that money could have exchanged hands? Okay, are you aware or is it true, is it true rather that a person or group of persons shared US hundred dollars or any amount of US dollars to delegates on behalf of Dumebis Kachiku? If anybody was to share, I would have been the one. However, I would have been the one. I'm not aware. And why would they share and not give my own people? So are you saying nobody, nobody, no delegates received US dollars to vote for Dumebis Kachiku at the ADC primaries in Abekuta? You're saying no single delegate received the hundred dollars or any amount of US dollars to vote for Dumebis? For the fact that nobody from Akwaibom received, I can say nobody received because why would they share dollars and then not give my own people? I just want to be sure. Let's leave Akwaibom out. Are you saying that no single delegate received US dollars to vote for Dumebis Kachiku at that primary? I will repeat the same thing I've said over and over again. I am not aware of either Dumebis or any other aspirants sharing dollars. Above all, why would they share dollars and leave a whole Akwaibom? No, I'm leaving out Dumebis in this case because it may not be him. It may be somebody... I don't know about voters. Did any delegates, even if it's one, receive US dollars to vote for Dumebis Kachiku at that presidential primary of the ADC? Not to my knowledge because I need to be careful not to my knowledge. Not from Chuku Kamone, not from Dumebis Kachiku. I can say that with every sense of responsibility because it was more of a three-horse race. Mr. Mone, Mr. Kachiku and Professor Mohalu. I brought all three of them to ADC. I brought all three of them. And Mr. Chike Okoku, I was also a presidential aspirant. I brought all of them. So they were all my friends and I was in the know and I cannot impute any illegal act on any of them to the best of my knowledge. What would be your reaction? Because the allegations out there and that at least 100 dollars was paid to delegates, allegations I repeat to vote for Dumebis Kachiku. You said you're not aware. What would be your... Let me give you information. Let me give you information. Dumebis had almost 1,000 votes. Almost 1,000 votes. Cutting across 19 states of the federation. Please, can we just get one person one person in Nigeria that collected 100 dollars? You know, it's... I'm not saying things sound very, very commercial. Alright, so architect, architect. What would be your response if we find that one person or group of people who said they were paid 100 dollars by someone from Kachiku's camp? What would be your response? I will be personally, personally not just unhappy but disappointed because he gave me his word. And there's something that is private and I wish I wouldn't have to say it, but let me say it. One of the closest persons to Mr. Kachiku nailed down that morning and cried and said, please, don't embarrass us. We are hearing that some things may be happening. Please join me. Dumebis said, I will not do it. I was sitting with him in the hotel. He said, I will not do it. I know they are watching me. I want them to bring one evidence. I dare them to bring one evidence. I will not do it. This person was crying. You have the money, you can do it. Give it. Dumebis said, I'm going to win and I don't want anybody to discredit me. Alright. Finally, finally, are there other members of the party leading members of the party? At least, let's talk about the BOT who have resigned. As of today, there is a rumor of one of the members of the BOT who has resigned and that is from, that has nothing to do with the presidential stuff. It's local, one of the states. Lagos state. And it has to do with Lagos state. It has to do with the primaries, okay? And the person put a call to me yesterday. Even Mr. Moyen, look, let me tell you how it is. Mr. Moyen, after all said and done, we've been communicating. Unfortunately, we're out of time architect. I'm so sorry. We will have to look for another BOT to engage. I'll give you a call after now so we can look for another time. Let me say this. Professor Mohalu is an asset to this country. He's a great guy and I pray that he thinks twice about some of the things that are going on. And I feel for him. All right. All right. Thank you very much for your time. I have so many questions to ask you. I wish we had more time. But I want to thank you very much. I think you have been able to establish that indeed some money exchange hands between Dumebika Chiku and the delegates. You said it paid $5,000. I've been able to say that I gave $5,000. And you said you as his agent also spent some money for feeding. No, don't make so generic. Generic, please quote me right. I've been able to say that during the process Mr. Dumebika Chiku and myself gave $5,000 for people to eat. Do you think this gesture by yourself and because I mean you were acting for Dumebika you think this gesture by Dumebika somehow ended him to the delegates? If it does and if it is negative I take personal responsibility. Do you think it ended him? It made him appeal to the delegates. Does it sort of cast him in good light that he is taking over lunch? Yeah, it would. Just like bringing them pay in their transportation and put them in good light and the other aspirants bringing transportation and accommodation also put them in good light. Does this amount to inducement? Anybody who tells you that $5,000 to eat is inducement on a general platform I am guilty. I'll say that again. Leadership for people that I brought who are not being paid a dime and I give them money to eat and you call that inducement and I'm not sure that that's inducement. That's not inducement. I took public affairs analyst a member of the Board of Trustees of the African Democratic Congress and indeed a government candidate for a quiet home state. Thank you very much for your time. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. God bless you. We'll continue our observation of the activities and happenings in the African Democratic Congress. We'll be back in a jiffy right here on the breakfast stand, of course. We'll say goodbye. All right, all right. That's the size of our package and of course it's been an interesting time. You can follow Plus TV Africa on all social media platforms on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at Plus TV Africa and on YouTube you can search for Plus TV Africa to watch clips but if you'd like to watch us live you can search for the account on YouTube Plus TV Africa Lifestyle for all of us here at the studios in Victoria Island. Legos, my name is Kofi Bartels. See you tomorrow. Up next is the News at 9.