 We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These words from the Declaration of Independence are familiar to many of us, and yet it took 143 years for women to get the right to vote and 189 years for Black people to get the right to vote. And still today, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are still only words for many people. Here in Boston, life expectancy varies by 30 years depending on where you live. In Roxbury, with many poor and Black people, life expectancy is 59 years. In the back bay, wealthy and mostly white, life expectancy is 91 years. It's tough to have liberty when you are in prison. The United States incarcerates 716 people for every 100,000 people. Our rate of incarceration is more than five times higher than most countries in the world. Millions of people in our country don't have health care, a decent job, good education, a home they can afford, and that makes it pretty hard to pursue happiness. So on this show, you are going to meet people who are making it possible to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People today who are making the words of the Declaration of Independence come true. Hi, my name is Michael Jacoby-Brown, and today we're honored to have with us Stanley Pollock of Teen Empowerment. Hi, Stanley, how are you? I'm good, Michael. I'm glad you could come in today. Stanley, you've been working for Teen Empowerment for decades now, but I'd like to start. Can you tell us something about your upbringing, where you came from, where you were born, and where you lived when you were young, and also how you got your values? Sure. Well, I was born in Marstown, New Jersey. There's a little monument towards it. I grew up in Bhutan, New Jersey, which is a small town about 9,000 people. My father owned a restaurant there, and it was sort of a breakfast, lunch, and dinner place, so you had the same people kind of come in there every week, so I got to know all kinds of different people, and that was very important. I got to know people who were doing very well, had a lot of money, which there was kind of an upper class in the town, and then there was a working class and poor people in the town and people of color, a small community of people of color in that town as well. People did live very separately there, but because I was in my father's restaurant, and I actually ate with different people every night of the week, I got to know people across those barriers, and I think that was a pretty fundamental experience for me in terms of kind of orienting me to the differences in the world, and also some of the inequities in the world as well. So I think that was a very important experience in kind of giving me a framework for my life. And can you say a little bit more about the values? I know you told me before about the values your dad and mom who worked in, as you called it, the store, the restaurant, what are the kind of things they did that influenced you? Yeah, that was a very important, you know, I think for everybody, your parents are, you know, your first models of how to live. And my father worked very hard, you know, 16-hour days, and he connected with people across those barriers. He took care of some of the folks in town, you know, sort of kept their money for them and that sort of thing. And my father had a very egalitarian approach to life. And that was important for me to see. My mother, on the other hand, had a lot of prejudice. And she expressed those prejudices. Really, you could call it prejudice, you could call it fear, but she bought into a lot of the stereotypes. And so I had those two kind of opposing images, really, in a way. And I learned from both of them, really. I felt that, you know, my mother's approach to life was limiting and unfair. And so I was more drawn to my father's kind of approach to it. But both of those were important in terms of understanding how society works and how society does not work. And when you started working as a young adult, I know you said you started working first with teens. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that happened? What attracted you about teens? Yeah. Well, as we were talking earlier, I needed a job. I needed to survive. So that was in there. And this was in 19, I graduated from college in 1971. And the economy was very, very flat. There wasn't a lot of opportunity. And there was a lot of political activism. And I really could not see myself going into kind of corporate life, you know, that sort of thing. And the idea of working with teenagers just seemed like the right direction to go to and go in. And the thing that attracted me about and still does attract me about working with teenagers is that they're forming. They're not totally formed. Adults tend to be kind of solidified in their attitudes and what they feel about things, their opinions are kind of fixed, where young people can kind of turn on a dime and be going in one direction and going and then going another. And that excited me, that kind of fluidity, that kind of openness, that kind of excitement about, you know, really engaging in life and seeing hope, you know, of making kinds of change. Maybe that gets disappointed at some point along the line. But it was that energy that really attracted me to working with teenagers. The opportunity that I got was to work in delinquent homes, which is what they called them back then. Now they call them treatment centers, I believe. And so I had the opportunity to work in those homes. And that was very affirming for me in terms of my abilities to connect with young people was the most kind of apparent skill that I had. So that was one end of it. And the other end of it was the oppression of the administrations that ran those facilities. So, you know, I had a lot of experiences where I was very successful working with young people and not so successful working with administrations and kind of battling those administrations to view their young people as people that had something to offer. So these were disposable young people. These were young people who were labeled as, you know, bad. And that was not my approach. And that was not my experience as well. You know, there were young people that faced many challenges, but they had a lot to offer as well. And that gave me the ability to connect with a lot of young people who maybe a lot of other people had more difficulty doing. Right. You saw them as something, people that had assets and possibility as opposed to need just needs and stuff. So you worked, I know, for a long time first in Somerville, for the city. You worked as a consultant for a lot of organizations. And then several decades ago, you were the founder of Teen Empowerment. Can you tell us a little bit more about Teen Empowerment specifically and how it differs from other sorts of youth development programs? Sure. It really is a continuation of that perspective, right? The perspective that young people are assets. So that really is the fundamental assumption that Teen Empowerment is built on. That, you know, where young people have all kinds of specific needs for services, they also have the ability to contribute. And so that's really the framework. So what Teen Empowerment is, it's a program that hires young people. And we hire all kinds of young people. Hires means pays them real money. They're actual employees. That's correct. They are employees. They are selected to represent their communities in terms of race and ethnicity, in terms of neighborhood, which is very important when you're trying to build community. And in terms of social and emotional development, that is we hire young people who are doing very well. And we're hiring young people who have had very difficult experiences and maybe are still involved in some of those difficult experiences, but are motivated to do something good in the world. And what's the theory around that? You said you hired some people who are doing well, I assume you mean doing well in school, traditional, and other folks that may be not doing so well in the traditional way of how adults in schools and institutions see them. What's the thinking or theory behind that? That's really interesting. Well, just to be specific, it's young people who are connected to other young people in the community who maybe aren't involved in gangs and they're involved in drugs, involved in dysfunctional kinds of behavior. The theory is if you want to reach those young people on the street, you better have those young people involved in the core leadership, really. That's one piece of the theory. And as an organizer, I'm sure you're familiar with that. And the other is that these young people have something to offer, that they understand some of the realities there. And they have skills, and some of them have very strong organizing skills. They may be organizing in the wrong direction, but they are organizers, and they may be leading in the wrong direction, but they are leaders as well. So they can be very, very bright, some just in very traditional ways really, but disconnected from school, disconnected from family or whatever, or have other kinds of skills that are really fundamentally important. So that's the theory behind reaching out to young people who have had more difficulty. And then the other piece of it is integration, right? So the way programs generally work is they work with high-risk youth, or they work with youth who are going to college, or they work with kids who are going into trades or whatever, but they tend to be separated and that means that they get reinforced by their peer group. So that's particularly negative phenomena when you look at young people who are grouped by their dysfunction. So we have DYS, Department of Youth Services. You go into a DYS facility with other young people who are having difficulty. The staff is trying to teach you a different way of being, but you're learning a lot from your peers. And so it's sort of recognizing that peer culture and the power of that peer culture and trying to break down the kind of segregation, the separation, so that young people who are doing well and young people who are not doing well can influence each other. So you hire a group of them, some doing well in the traditional sense. Correct. And how big is that group every year or semester? How does it work? Well, we have two sites in Boston. We have a site in Somerville, Massachusetts. We have a site in Rochester, New York, which is about to have a second site in Rochester, New York as well. At each site, we hire about 14 young people. 14. That's the group. That's great. Groups above 15 tend to form cliques, something we learned from organizational theory anyway. Yeah, absolutely. We have a whole series of different things that we do. Sometimes we actually have more than 14, but we generally hire 14 young people and seven boys and seven girls and that's a very kind of rigorous effort to keep a gender balanced. And then, as I said, representing the different communities. So if we're working in Boston, we want the different housing developments represented in there and the different neighborhoods and so forth in that group. And so what do you actually do after you hire them? And is this sort of done on a school year basis or summer two or how does it work? What actually do the young people do after their hard? What's their job? Yeah, their job is to meet every day of the week, Monday, mostly Monday through Friday, they work two to three hours a day during the school year. So that's a seven, about a seventh month deal. And then we actually have a seven week program that we do in the summer, which is very similar. It's a little bit more hours during each day. They meet every day and they analyze, what their job is, is to analyze the community. That is, what are the most powerful issues in the community? What are the issues that if you worked on would have the biggest impact on the rest of those issues? Then develop a strategy to have an influence on the value systems, the belief systems of their peers. Implement that strategy with the goal of trying to change the patterns of behavior in that community and have young people take on a more positive value system and decrease negative outcomes for young people in that community. And these are mostly communities of color in Boston or at least? We tend to work in communities of color. That's where we are right now. But in Somerville is a very mixed community. So you have a mix of kids of color and then those Caucasian kids as well. I wonder if you have some reflections you as a white man going into Boston, into mostly communities of color. I wonder if you have any reflections, as you said once to me. Who gets to start these programs? You've been doing this for years and years, decades really. Do you have some reflections or thoughts on how that works or is it working, what's going on in that whole scene, so to speak? Yeah, well there's sort of two questions, right? How was my experience with that? And just to answer that question, that's changed over the years. When I first began in the program in Boston in 1992, 1993, Boston was in a bloodbath. There were 180 murders in Boston and in 1991, the state around those areas, that's like more than triple than what's happening now. And on top of that, the young people who were dying were really young people. They were like 14, 15, 16 years old. That's changed as well. So if you take a look at the numbers, even there's 40 or 50, too many, too many murders and injuries and so forth, they tend to be a little bit older. So the violence level among young people has decreased. So all this work, when people talk about the kinds of investments that have been made in Boston and in its many programs, not just Tina Powerman for sure, there's many great programs in there, they really paid it off. There's more work to be done. That's a big fallacy of people, oh well, we're in great shape now, let's not do it anymore. That's a huge mistake. When I began, race was an issue, my race was an issue. But much less of an issue, you're in the middle of really a bloodbath. And the things we were doing, running peace conferences, bringing gangs together, having people sit down who had wars with each other and signed peace treaties, folks were appreciative of that. And that's allowed us to grow and develop. Over the years, there's been a growing awareness of the importance of people of color leading programs. And of course, Tina Powerman's all about that. The staff comes up from the program into staff. The staff comes from the youth. That's our best opportunity to get staff. So, and I think the whole issue of awareness, awokeness, if you will, around race has grown tremendously in society over these years. And I think the frustration of people of color as that awareness grows. The average white family has $250,000 or $300,000 of value savings of one kind in a house or whatever. And people of color, it's $8. Negative. So these things are very, very painful. And they create resentment and anger. And if you have the kind of national discussion that we're having, which is outrageous, the things that the Trump administration does and says, and his accolades in the Congress and you see on television, the anger that young people feel is palpable and understandable and gets kind of generalized as well. So it's become more and more important for people of color to lead organizations. And that's something that I hope I've helped to spawn in my organization. Yeah, well, let's talk about that because I know you've now left a while ago as the quote executive director. And there were no quotes. Right, right. Thank you for clarifying that. That's really helpful. I know you've left, how long ago was it now? It's been a year that I left the position of executive director and became a part-time, half-time person. Right. I'd love to talk a little bit about that because transitions from baby boomers, hope you don't mind that expression like you and me, to younger people is something that's happening across a lot of social justice organizations. And I think it'd be really interesting to hear something about your experience doing that, not that your experience is going to work for everyone, but what that's been like for you. And now that you're, well, you're not exactly retired, I don't see you as the retiring type, but you have more time on your hands. Could you explain both a little bit maybe first about the transition, how that worked and why I think you said it was important to have a person of color become the executive director at this point now because things are different? Yeah, absolutely. That was an important goal of the process and we were open to all kinds of different people and we had a completely open process. I actually had nothing to do with the hiring process or very, very little to do with the hiring process. The board wanted to do that and they pretty much did do it. I had some input into it. I obviously met with people and did an interview and so forth. So that was, there was a lot of conversation about my role going forward and a lot, you know, the traditional thought is that the EDN, particularly the founder, that we can put quotes around the founder, you know, shouldn't be involved, should leave be gone, you know, that sort of thing. I felt that that would be a big mistake because Teen Empowerment is a very complicated program technically to run and I felt like I still had something to offer and wanted to stay involved with it and that was something that was agreed upon but people were concerned about it. We hired Abigail Forrester who is an African American, I think he's about 50 years old, has tremendous experience working with YouthBuild and, you know, the Madison Park Development Corporation and just a very talented guy and very passionate, extremely passionate and dynamic, very dynamic personality. So, you know, he was hired and we've been working together for over a year now, just over a year and it's just working out tremendously because you know, first of all, I don't want to be the ED. Why is that? Well, I never actually enjoyed that aspect of the program and wasn't that great at it. I mean, I don't mind doing fundraising and talking to people about the program and that sort of thing and advocating public and so that I more or less enjoyed that. I much more enjoyed the opportunity to work with Youth which was, I probably did a lot more than that than I should have done but that was really my passion and my main skill set. Terrible at the financial management aspects of it. I'm not, you know, bookkeeping and looking at, you know, financial stuff my eyes just cross and somebody else needs to do that. You know, so, Abigail is just much better at all of that stuff and he's great at public representation and as I said, he's very passionate about social change which is is really my main interest and priority, you know, as well. He came up with my title which is a little bit long which is the director of Model Fidelity and Consulting. So he came up with that title because he wants the program to stay connected to the model and so it's my job to assist people, to support people as they attempt to do the program and stay in fidelity to the model and then I do consulting work with John Hancock and various national organizations and so forth. So that opportunity to work closely with him and really I was very honored at our fundraiser that we had that Abigail recognized me and said that, you know, that he saw me as someone who was dedicated to helping people who don't look like myself and I was honored to be recognized for that. Right, and yet you said you thought it was important at this time to have a person of color leading the organization. Could you talk a little bit more about why that's important, why you think it's important now? Well, I think it's always important, it was always important. I mean on a very basic level, how people operate, how they connect, you know, their relationships are based on their background and their culture and so they're more comfortable with that, you know, and there's some ways in which, you know, I was, I mean, I did not grow up in Boston. I understood poverty to a degree. I understood racism to a degree. I didn't live it. Right, that's different. And it is different and so that is important and just, you know, how decisions are made and who's going to, you know, in terms of, you know, trying to develop a national model which is what Teen Empowerment is, it was very difficult because, and we kind of discussed this, a lot of the national models, the folks who begin those models come from backgrounds that give them a lot of privilege, that gave them a lot of resources and a lot of access to decision makers. It doesn't mean their programs are not good, their programs are great, but they had that opportunity to get the visibility and the support they need, being white and connected. Being white in itself does not give you those connections, so I didn't, I didn't come with that, that level of privilege, you know, my, as I said, my father owned a restaurant, he worked 16 hours a day as a working class guy. Not connected to a lot of corporations. Not connected to, well, he actually died when I was 21, so if you, you know, so that, that, there was that loss as well. So, so you have one kind of opportunity or pathway for, for tremendous growth, which is what I just talked about, and then the other is through, you know, being connected in the community and having access to decision makers and people of means through that pathway. That wasn't you. That was not me. I get it. So, so in, in, in hiring someone like Abergal who's very talented and also grew up in Boston and actually spent 10 years in jail on a terrible inequity, you know, and he talks about this a lot, you know, just to be clear, you know, he has experienced background connections, passion, you know, a package. And now we might have hired somebody who was not a person of color, you know, and who could have been great, you know, as well. So I just want to be clear about that. Abergal was absolutely the best person that we saw of any color or background. So he wasn't hired because he's an African American, because he comes from Boston. And that was part of what was figured into it. But, you know, he had a whole set of skills and understandings. And as I said, passion for social change that really qualified him more than qualified him for the job. We only have a couple of minutes, but you talked about your own passion for social justice and social change. And just in the little time we have, what's it been like now that you have a little more time? I mean, I know you're still working at Teen Empowerment, but you have more time. You're not exactly retired. But what's that like? And what opportunities do you see for yourself and perhaps others? Well, I have the opportunity to continue to be engaged. And I have a band called Stanley and the Undercovers, which plays classic rock music, which takes up some of my time. And I've done a series of fundraisers. I'm doing this process now called Dance for Dignity. And we have one on March 14th at the UU Church in Arlington. And what the dances for dignity are. And that's a Saturday. That's a Saturday. We say the day of the weekend, the day at seven o'clock. Right. And you can find it on Facebook, that evening. So that's something you couldn't have done perhaps if you were still working full-time as the executive director of Teen Empowerment. You have a little more time on your hands. Right. And the purpose of those is to raise money for immigrant rights, to help people who are facing detention, deportation, and also to help asylum seekers who, you know, host families. So we're trying to raise $25,000 with this process and people who want to sponsor it. If you're interested in sponsorships, you know, please get in touch with me. So in this extra time in your non-retirement, sort of retirement, I don't know, what would you call it? Well, I mean, I think I have more choice about how to use my time. You have more choice, yeah. I'm very busy. I'm not quite as busy as I was before, but I'm pretty close to as busy as I was before. So you have, so do you have any thoughts, just what is it like to have that extra time? You know, I mean, this is what you're actually doing, but how does that show up when you wake up in the morning, for instance? I wake up later. That's one thing. And, you know, it's, I think I don't have to run out of the house as much as really, and the thing that really became very old was working at night. And I don't do a lot of those. Also, I don't do things that I don't want to do. So like, you know, I didn't enjoy certain aspects of my job. Most of it I did, but there were things that I didn't enjoy, and I don't have to do those anymore. So that's great. That's great. Yeah. Well, I think what you're saying is there are a lot of people, more and more, as baby boomers retire or work less, that are going to have opportunities to follow their passions. Absolutely. And I think one of the things that you're a model of, and I hope other people can learn from you and others who are, if not full-time retired, but at least have some more time on their hands, is how to, you know, make the world a little bit better place so those words, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness can hopefully be more than just words. Yeah, absolutely. And I really appreciate not only what you have done, but you are doing the transitions you make. And I hope people will continue to support not only teen empowerment, but the work you're doing for immigrants and asylum seekers. So thanks a lot Stanley. It's really great to have you here. Thanks, Michael. And may you live a long life and have many more opportunities to do this. Yeah, you too. Thanks a lot. Okay. So that's it for today, and I hope you enjoyed meeting Stanley Pollock, and we'll look forward to seeing others in the future. Thank you very much. Again, this is Michael Jacoby Brown, and this program is We Hold These Truths. Thank you very much, and we'll see you next week.