 Hi, good afternoon. How are we doing? Yeah, I know I know it's been a busy and back-to-back session for everybody and you are hungry So I think we finished the panel discussion just outside the room while we were waiting for the panel to happen But I mean today we're discussing the role of TV Right and obviously all the noise for last Five seven eight years has been around digital and it is interesting that we've come back And we're discussing TV today and on the panel They are very many experts who spent their lifetime building D2C brands through digital So it's going to be an interesting conversation differently Today we'll try and discuss the role of TV overall why TV is still important We'll look at how TV works in conjunction with other medium right? It was part of a funnel and not a standalone itself We'll see if we can discuss a bit about connected TV and I think that that's the most that we'll be able to do Maybe role of IPL etc. So that's really the agenda. We'll see how much we can we can kind of cover So the first question really I want to ask the panel is that you know Despite the fact that this is so big, you know, 900 million people on YouTube 250 million doing UPI half of that doing e-commerce and so and so for that digital number in India is fantastic But so is TV data, right? Almost over 180 billion of suspense on television, right? And personally, I think at Leo Burnett. We've had the Joy of building large brands such as Amazon spot if I phone pay all through TV work, right? So digital native brands being built on TV in India So how to ask the panel the first question, which is what about TV still makes it, you know The best ROI the most popular medium for building narrative for most popular media for building even D2C brands in a country like India So some of this car started with you and your views on on why do you think TV still works and what about it still works? I think this works. Yeah, so I think television is still the Is still the key media to get trust and impact for a brand what I mean by trust is It's it's just human conditioning when when you see an ad for a brand on television You start thinking this brand has enough money must have enough consumers It's big enough for me to trust it and that's where the trust comes from an impact is all about Reaching a large audience at the same time. I mean, don't get me wrong I come from a background of D2C and digital marketing There is a possibility of reaching a large audience on digital as well But not as quickly and as efficiently as you can do on television We trust efficiency and speed as well Rajan coming to you right. I mean you you sell cars under very trusted name Tata, right? How how do you use TV and what is the role for TV you feel in especially in today's times? I think one of the things that we often forget that TV is a very social medium in the sense that the whole family Watches and we are in a category where the families take decisions. It's all not always individuals Right, so the whole family if in my previous experiences in jewelry in tonnage as well again jewelry buying is a family experience right, so the the fact that This is that only medium. I still feel it's the only medium digital is not a social medium in that sense For brands like us which are high value purchase brands. It's a considered decision It's a family decision. The kids are influencing the grandmother's influencing it the TV makes a lot of sense and You know adding further to what somebody just said the fact that it's got the what the most widespread of a Penetration in that sense and I think that it allows us to tell stories the largest screen allows us to tell stories in a family Setting in a much in a much more inclusive way than digital does and that certainly helps Brands like us certainly with the Tata name, which is very well penetrated across households and For high-value categories like us. I think it's an absolute must that we are on television as one of the Amazing so you're saying what works for mobile which is individual consumption, right? TV stands as a medium for completely opposite which is social and together and narrative building Right Grish coming to you right how how in your line of work? Have you used TV and and is it any different from what some bit and Rajan has spoken about as a role of TV especially in today's times So so for sure If you really analyze the various media available today Television by far is perhaps the most powerful and effectively building equity and awareness The most efficient way to reach it as you know the panelist said The digital may not help you get there effectively To my mind of course as a brand blue star has been built on television over the last two decades or so We were not advertising and you'd be surprised at the first one decade. We were just in the B2B business We weren't even in the consumer business But we still kept investing on television because as I mentioned earlier that you know brand equity cannot be built in Private it has to be you know, you know reaching out to as many consumers as you can even if you're a B2B brand Of course efficiencies will come into play But having said that the audio visual experience that television gives you you know without you having that option of skipping the ads And I know other things etc. There's nothing to beat television, you know digital I mean print outdoor radio will be reminder mediums in a way They're more when you already built your awareness and you want to convert that into Conversions or into sales then it helps a lot But having said that there is nothing as powerful to my mind to build your brand other than television even till today Gotta we have a stake in the game, right? So how how do you see what is the role wise TV is still holding on and what's the unique proposition TV brings that nobody else does So, thank you very much Firstly see what TV does is you know Very beautifully it helps you address Key behavior points if you want to impact behavior of any particular market You will see that TV actually works beautifully and an example that I can talk about is what happened during COVID You know a lot of people wanted to have access to best medical care You know daily news updates of what what are the policies of travel and other guidelines? In fact Prime Minister Modi came on television more than 12 times in that year You know almost every month there was an event that he was coming and addressing the country through the medium of TV So clearly it shows that TV has a far bigger impact. You trust the TV word very easily There's a lot of credibility that comes with it and more importantly TV even today is the highest reached medium in India 70% of India has connected through television in one way or the other So, you know that kind of reach is cannot be ignored by a market year, you know And even after that there is a headroom, you know There could be one part of the market that may never get TV connected Right, they may not be able to afford a TV or whichever way you look at the software But you can still take TV up to another 80 82 percent. That's a large part of a you know 1.4 billion market TV today has what close to 890 or 900 million connections in India. It's a large canvas So looking at the might of TV looking at the credibility and the trust that it awards and I think my key aspect is that it helps change behaviors So when you want people to become more healthy, you do something with TV want people to become You know visor on investments again TV comes in the center of that. So we'll talk about it But yeah TV has been that strong medium of influence and impact behavior change and scale God of that's what We want to get a little bit more nuanced on this conversation that because it's obviously not either or it's not one size fits all We'll discuss a bit on how does TV work in relation to other mediums, right? So for example, if you're young startup, right, Casa, you can You know do all the initial numbers to performance and you don't really need to get on TV And we've had experience on brands which have done very well on performance early And then as you continue to performance marketing it becomes very expensive, right? And then you bring TV cover you bring an air cover and realize that performance becomes You know more affordable and easier and so on and so forth So that's one aspect of looking at TV as a part of the funnel of bottom funnel as well The other is increasingly we see for example coin base at Super Bowl, right? It just played a QR code for 15 seconds. So TV even in terms of content is Interacting with other medium, right? The TV ad is connected to a QR code is connected to Twitter So how are we seeing and how or how should we see TV? As a part of other mediums and other format some with your thoughts on that especially from the honasa experience Yeah, I think we can do a panel discussion just on this one question. There are so many angles to it I mean to start from the way I remember when I started off my career with I was working for Nestle and we just launched Nasty I see One of the first things to do on awareness was put it on television in summers. That's it put it on television mass cover Everyone gets to know about it The other way is how a lot of new age startups deal with the same problem when you start off a company What do you do in the beginning? You can't afford to put it on television So you start going for the smallest niche which you can find maybe on digital you can go more targeted Once you go a little bigger and you still want to tell a story like these guys were saying and Larger audio visual format tells a story much better So they go to connected television or they go to HDTV and they just go I mean they just go bigger and bigger from a very small niche and this will allows them to go niche But finally when they have to go mass impact trust it has to end up at television So I think that's the way to look at it both have their own roles and in a media plan I mean you use it as per the stage of your business The second aspect of it is also how And I think I mean BBH would be a great Story to tell of how Stories are being told in the different mediums and how both mediums are learning from each other suddenly television is Attributable there are questions being asked. I mean the biggest success of digital used to be that it's attributable Now television there are companies like policy bazaar even at mama views to do it where? television spots on a particular time spot you get to know after a week and you try to map it with how much traffic How many installs on the app you got and you try to do a correlation and you figure out attribution on the other hand The television media has in form has kind of influence digital as well the audio visual content on Digital is not just 15 second performance ads. It's also storytelling. It's also content pieces. It's long format two-minute brand stories, etc I mean one of the Best creative for me from mama days was when we told our purpose, which was a two and a half minute video Which was pretty much what television used to be during the Durarshan days So there's so much that's happening in relation both in media mix planning and also in kind of creatives learning from each other Interesting something you're saying that the television as a medium is also changing. It's not just about long-term brand building It is also about attribution and immediate Kind of impact Rajan How would you react to that? I mean you're also in a category where I'm told that six to seventy percent journey is getting completed online So how are you seeing online and other medium and television in conjunction? Especially when it's such a High-revenue high-unit category. So especially when you're launching new brands, it's definitely Very very relevant. That's our baseline In fact, we've used IPL very very successfully since 2018. We've been partners with them and On the digital side, we largely use it from a performance marketing perspective from a reminder perspective post the bigger campaign or to auto even form relationships where we can do Activities that possibly create interest and drive consumers to the to a store. I mean fundamentally That's the primary aim of all of I mean anybody on this panel. So out there's marketing campaigns to get people to To come to the to come to the stores and and for us That's the most the integration of both is extremely important. I think television With the with the advent of high-impact properties, whether it's IPL whether it's big boss Whether it's even the shark tank I mean the biggest irony is that if you watch the American shark tank, even the brands who don't get funding sell out because they were on television I mean, that's the that's the beauty and power of television I think television has increasingly found properties which are unique to them, which are sustainable only on them I thought for example that coffee with current which was done this time on hotstar only It was such a damn squib because there's a family used to enjoy it together Irrespective of the quality we want to discuss quality of the program But it just it just took the mojo out of the whole whole thing, right? So the integration for any brand today in a very Cost costly market. We have to choose our audiences very carefully and therefore The programs that we tie up with also it also depends on the product lifecycle of the brand Where are you in the product lifecycle? of the brand Certainly for start-ups, it would be unviable to go on television But if they were to go on television, that's your instant 15 seconds of fame, right? And then what happens next is anybody's guess depending on how well you're geared up to handle it and what kind of quality of product You have so I think both there's no getting away from from either of the two Television because of his reach in penetration is still going to be a very very relevant medium But we have to use the integration with digital and social media very very wisely And you saying digital is more a follow-up and a motor closing mechanism for you Yeah, Grish how have you I mean you you said that you've used television for long-term brand-building, right? How do you use television in conjunction with other medium? How do you see it interact with other medium? Is it changing itself? How do you see it as a part of the mix? I think I think for you know for sure television is learning from the other mediums as well From a perspective of you know what other mediums like say digital and digital has really grown a lot on influencer marketing And you know television branded content is becoming more and more popular going forward So obviously advertisers are concerned that if consumers don't see their TV commercials How do you still integrate your brand with content on television? So I think that's what television is learning from other mediums that if you really want to get you know To a TG without Them going through a TV commercial then this is the way to do it again having said that television has a you know a important Objective like I equated to mass bombarding whereas digital is more surgical strikes or micro surgical strikes So that's a big difference between the two it all depends on your objective You want to do mass bombarding build your brand television? There's nothing to be did like I mentioned earlier But digital will just help you reach to a particular target group far more efficient You know so obviously both are learning from each other as I see it Like you know the panelists rightly mentioned that you now you know run an ad on IPL During television and then you see how many searches happened on that particular brand that evening and obviously digital and television You know are kind of collaborating with each other in terms of data exchange To get an idea for a market here and you know most media planners actually give a combo of a plus B And then see the many effectiveness is far higher So from that perspective I think You know both will like he you know rightly mentioned will coexist and both will have a role to play and It's exciting ways or days ahead for market is like us mass mass bombarding versus surgical strike interesting interesting framing God of what's your view on this because also there are a lot of media houses now who are doing the whole package, right? They're saying we can give you TV. We can give you digital We can give you all of it together. How are you seeing TV interact with other medium and how are you seeing it as part of the mix? so what happens is TV becomes the in many of the newer You know marketing plans TV is becoming a central part where they use it to create content and Then they use different formats to distribute the content including TV digital and other measures So creation of content is still pretty much the domain of TV. They have the stories are well told Like people were talking about it earlier Storytelling is something which is becoming very important for brands today and somehow TV managed to convey their story in a credible and a very very effective way It's not really a choice between TV or digital both will coexist Like we talked earlier. There'll be a certain You know digital bring certain sharp shooting to the warfare and television will bring a certain grandeur and impact that you know They demolish the whole building for example, and you know, that's the message that goes back to the enemy camps So that kind of mass bombing is what TV will do and digital will do that sharp shooting So both are important. It's not neither, you know, one or the other but largely market years have today is figured out that you know to create a need to impact the behavior to create a You know very large sustainable change They're using TV then to fulfill that change and need a lot of them are using digital where they can get the transaction part of it For example, you look at say a policy bazaar, right? They are one of the largest advertisers on TV, right? They create the need for you to go and you know pick up a policy online or at least that need is planted in your mind that you are Under issue in short or you need to address that then the fulfillment will happen at another platform So they use best of both and the many brands, you know, if you look at the top 10 brands on TV in the last two years I think five of them will be from the e-commerce or the new commerce Site so clearly shows that that's where they will see they want to build a brand quickly They want to reach 70% of India quickly, right? Because their next round of investment is dependent on that So they use TV for its benefit and from the TV set we also use digital to further our cause We want to bring out faster stories today's stories break on digital. I mean, it's a fact, right? So we use that to harness our content. In fact, we do something very interesting at times. I think it's almost like a coke formula Many people have tried they have not been able to replicate it We throw out, you know a dozen stories in the morning say around 10 11 we throw 10 12 stories out on various social platforms and We see what is it that India is tracking? So, you know during the lunchtime during the time that you're traveling to office back home You may have liked something you may have commented on something and suddenly by the evening six o'clock We know three stories that have outperformed the other seven or eight stories Those three stories become the central part of our debate in the evening It's like almost a daily poll that we do we throw 10 stories We see which is which are the stories that people want to talk about and then they become part of our content piece So we are actually harnessing the power of digital to further improve the TV content Far more connected as an ecosystem than yes There can't be a conversation on TV without IPL, right? So I mean there's TV and this IPL I mean I believe the event by itself the the fund are different the way to succeed on IPL is different I mean we personally taken many brands on IPL and I mean in fact We just did I spotty fun IPL last year and when we came out of IPL. We've had a huge hockey stick Growth, right? So it is expensive. I mean It's not easy to to be an IPL But when you are on IPL and you've cracked the formula correct this huge amount of success that comes to us I don't understand and I will ask and discuss Is a is IPL kind of event Re-energizing TV a and we are the rules of the game on something like IPL different because it is 22nd is fast You know, it's very high investment as well Your thoughts on this. Yeah, I've never been part of a brand that has been able to afford IPL. So All my viewpoints will be more theoretical in nature No, I mean in all honesty IPL or any other impact property Let's say big boss or any other impact property dance in their dance All of these give one of the first things I mentioned about what TV has as an advantage versus digital is Impact in reach happening all very quickly That's what IPL big boss any of these impact properties give if I have to reach Hundred million people on digital. It's not like I can't it's just that it's going to take me a long time to do So and it's especially if I want to do it efficiently for my For my campaign to build up. It's gonna take at least a month. It's gonna take some time, right? Whereas if I put money on IPL, I'm able to reach out to that hundred million very quickly within the first spot or so That's the big advantage But on top of that comes the question of what frequency do you put your ad spots on just putting one? I don't know. I mean others on the panel who've used IPL can probably mention But at least from my experience with big boss and other impact properties putting one on one episode makes no difference It has to be there throughout so that there is top of mind and salience And also additionally on top of the spots if you can do some kind of some kind of integrations or Additional kind of banners or something like that it just makes things much more memorable because objective at the end of The day is to get top of mind and salience not just have a spot out there Where are you on this? I mean do you believe that if you have to do TV matters will do IPL or do you believe it's a complete waste of money? I think wrongly targeted because I'm already in the game right? We've been investing in IPL since 2018 as partners not just as advertisers and Invariably IPL has always happened at a time which has been two or three months after the launch of one of our biggest vehicles So it was alters. It was next on it was Harrier. It was safari. It was punch It's invariably happened a couple of months after that and we've seen some tremendous boost Arising out of that because the whole package you have the car placement on the on the grounds You have the mentions in the commentators speech and and so on and so forth But having said that I think that every brand needs to think very very carefully about that kind of investment It is a massive investment and it's a one-time huge investment which can blow you out of the water and as a market You're asses. Sorry. We are on the line. So So I think it's a it's a very very considered Call it's as big as not as big but equivalent in my mind When we are searching for answers and somebody says brand ambassador So if if you're a band looking to make a big impact and If you've got something new to offer and you can afford it It certainly makes sense Because you will get that mileage What if it's sustenance or if it's a routine product like coffee tea, baby? I don't think it's gonna work Depends on what you want out of the So I was a part of an IPL panel earlier So at the cost of not sounding repetitive we've been on in a blue stars been on IPL's ever since first season I've been on every season of IPL barring just a year or two. Otherwise the last 14 seasons we've been there We are not a big brand in terms of deep pockets. We are very limited money available But we choose to use it wisely Of course IPL has a great timing advantage for us because it's the start of the summer season Most of our campaigns are launched on IPL But what we've learned from IPL is very different from other television advertising our one thing for IPL is that you have to Acknowledge the fact that your break TV hours will be the lowest which means people would want to obviously wait for the next over So they are not really going anywhere, right? So that advantage of engagement is there with IPL be a lower acds work much better So a 10 or 15 seconds because again, you can't splurge 30 seconds on an IPL a 10 15 second Oh, you got to really do some kick-ass advertising Clutter breaking advertising to stand apart if you can manage that that you can really be successful on IPL with even lower budgets Okay, so these are the advantages that you know and of course in terms of a property a lot of people and research tells us that if a Brand is an IPL. They suddenly, you know put it as a very respectable brand Right, it's like one of those brands that they would look up to it in terms of aspiration in terms of premenace It just goes up if you're on IPL so these are the you know other advantages that one has of a large property like IPL and Therefore, I think we've never looked back But having said that yes, it is a huge investment I'd agree it would be a large chunk of our money's as well But if you know do it wisely our frequencies higher you create different Edits of the same acd, you know communicate your message over Four ten seconders, you know better than what you would do in 130 seconder You might really be able to stand out even despite the clutter I Be good TV guy, I mean if I was a polarizer question for you that you want to do TV Just do impact and don't do anything else. How would you react to that? Actually, that's not a bad idea Like there are many brands who have built themselves up like Girish mentioned blue star You know in the same categories as a brand like Kent arrow. You will not see them on anything except news and cricket You know even Girish to that extent is largely Exploiting the you know benefits out of sports and cricket and they're spending maybe 70% 80% of their investments in that and There they buy the highest quality product. They'll buy IPL. They'll buy the nine o'clock primetime debate because they want that impact and Brands are very happy doing it. So it works for brands. In fact We believe that you know IPL is what IPL is a high intensity activity condensed in a small form I'm making it look like a scientific formula, but that's what it is Like a lot of action done in 60 days. We have to create our own IPLs for example in news, but you have elections You have budget those are one day events like IPL where you know Several people come on to a particular platform or a channel watch content and go back So those are our own hypo that we create where brands brands like data brands like new star They come on board and they want to talk to their audience for that day. So it works Sometimes less is more Just focus and get out our shift gears a bit and look into the future a bit right and talk about connected TVs, right? So huge growth, right because smart TVs are going to happen a big way internet is going to happen in the big It's already happening in a big way chance. I mean connected TV's groups already 4% in the last quarter 2022, right? And the the nature of the medium is changing. So YouTube just launched YouTube shots taking their vertical Mobile first medium to a connected TV experience Globally, you know, there are experiences that you're watching something and you could buy You know, you could take a product and social commerce and entertainment commerce You could buy the moment you're watching the piece of content So those are some bits of changes which are already on the anvil in the more developed markets And as India leapfrogs to smart TVs connected TVs, is that going to change the nature of television completely? You know something any any future guessing thoughts on that? Yeah, I think connected TV is an interesting one It's it doesn't lie completely in TV, but it doesn't lie completely in digital either. It's attributable It's part of I mean it can be part of the Google ecosystem if you want to measure it And yet you're getting the audio visual experience of a television possibly you're also getting shared Like social watching with your entire family, so it's kind of the mix of both The latest number I saw it was I think 20 million households in India That's already quite a large size I remember when I started advertising that it was less than seven or eight million and yet It used to be big enough to be part of my digital marketing mix I Would still put it as part of the digital media mix Just because it's it can be measured along with Google and not really along with the TV hours But yeah, you get all the benefits of the television advertising as well. So I mean it's kind of in the middle I think over time as the other benefit of connected television is it's Automatically reaching out to a premium audience or an audience that is more digitally enabled which is more Probably a slightly higher household income and therefore you're already self selecting the right kind of customers That's another big advantage of it as that volume increases I think it's going to be very interesting for both new age players like startups Which are D2C startups and also maybe the incumbent ones the larger organizations today How do we how do we process the idea of connected TVs? Do we see it as having the best of both worlds you can do social watching Does all that the TV does yet very sharp attributability and being able to buy it for example You look at the new generation right for the Gen Z, right TV is not You know colors and stars the TV is is Netflix and an Amazon Prime and so on so forth But the fact is that 20 million households, that's it So you have a direct correlation to has pointed out to a premium audience But that's about it right and it's only 20 million households as point number one point number two is when you talk about internet penetration It's about mobile devices. It's not about household Wi-Fi's So the growth of smart TV is going to take a considerable amount of time and Till such time and for some time more to come. I think TV Is going to be still the mainstream medium and this is going to be a very niche medium Which can be smartly used by certain products and product categories, but not for mass brands like Yes, tomorrow if Tesla was to come into the market, certainly they can use it and they will use it They're not going to go on mass television Grish your thoughts on that and also from your perspective if you've done IPL over the years Have you also done hotstar and what's been your current TV? Experience or impact on that. No, so again are coming back to connected TV I think 5G will really explode the consumption of connected TV It's likely to but I completely agree with Rajan that is just 20 million households We have 150 million households still watching on a cathode ray tube So that change is going to take years because the market is just about 10 million to 12 million every year of television sets Right and of course 80% is our smart television So from that perspective, it's gonna take years to happen. Of course the other answer You know hotstar versus You know the live television there are very different ways to kind of look at it If your idea and anybody's idea to be on IPL would be to create Large awareness mass bombarding then television turns out to be cheaper than digital from an efficiency perspective I think TV will be cheaper like I keep saying digital is more performance marketing digital is more microsurgical strikes The idea of IPL is a little different for for me from that perspective But yes connected TV is going to change the way India watches I would still put connected TV in the category of television because even on OTT you're watching the same content that you would watch on television And even on mobile phones, you'd watch that, you know, you would watch that So I'm of a belief believe that television spends and OTT spent should be clubbed together I should be put under television spends and not counted as digital spends because they're doing the same job of creating awareness There's digital is most surgical strikes more performance marketing more ROI based, you know investments in that sense Gaurav, how are you guys processing the idea of connected TV? How are you processing the idea of connected TV right as a broadcast player? So see connected TV While it like Some of my fellow panellists said that it looks very small as we speak because not too many people into it But with passage of time and improved data speeds it will catch up Right now it looks like it isn't the sushi category, you know good to have it sometimes But can't have it as a daily meal someday it will become part of your daily meal But what this has certainly done is it has taken content creators back to their drawing board because Such content has reduced the attention span of viewers like even you as a creative Person today are making smaller creatives seven seconds ten seconds twelve seconds. So that has a bearing on content creators So today for example on one of our channels zoom we have started reducing the size of the music videos. We play now 45 seconds to one minute kind of videos rather than three minute videos Our new stories have been cut short in size We now play headlines more than regular stories. We play headlines three times an hour Each headline is of two minutes to three minutes where you put in 10 stories because the viewers attention span is reducing So that's the impact that it is having otherwise. It's not really impacted any other way Sure, so I think that's that's what we have time for I just want to go around once with the last comments on What's the one thing that we should keep in mind while using TV? While using any media it's the objective that you have I mean from the last answer I find it interesting that for a company 20 million can be large audience for other company It can be really small and I get that So objective of course matters for whichever your brand or company is And accordingly the usage for television whether to use it and yes, how do you I think it's important to understand the buying behavior of your Consumers and then link that back to the medium that you use so as I mentioned earlier to be the social medium So it works for high-value categories which are a family purchase So from that context understand Who your consumers are obviously but also understand How the purchasing behavior happens as a unit or as a as a family and then make the decisions accordingly So for example an IPL it works well when you are a category which is going to be bought once in five years I feel I mean it really works well then because you make that big impact people go and spend that big amount of money It won't necessarily make the impact for daily usage You know kind of items or for example what we learned at the IPL was that there are certain teams which are favorites so we stuck to marketing I mean advertising only on those On the on those matches and not throughout the IPL So I think there's some other things that you need to pick up as you go along and use it wisely Yeah, I would strongly believe that as a marketer you should effectively leverage the opportunities available in each medium television digital print Outdoor every medium has some of the other advantage So don't rule out anything just focus on you know the media multiplier try to kind of not dilute yourself But to thin but focus on you know what each channel or what each medium can bring to you and you know That's the secret to succeed So from my point of view I would say that if a marketer wants to tell impactful stories And he wants to reach maximum people if these two Objectives form part of your you know overall matrix then TV should play an important role while People choose the combination of TV and digital and social and all other options It is a great thing to do but TV will continue to lead that cut process And if you have to become a thought leader in that TV is gonna really Come handy Fantastic. I think it's been a great learning experience for me as well Right. I mean the fact that it's a much more nuanced topic. It's not just TV or digital How all the mediums are interacting with each other They have their own role and depends a lot on what life cycle your brand and your business is and the fact that TV in Itself is changing a lot by itself in this form and content. Thank you everybody. Thanks a lot Thank you guys for listening to us and holding back from lunch. Have a great day