 I'm joined by Stephen Kirkjian, author of Master Thieves. He's here today to talk to us a little bit about the most famous art heist in U.S. history. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. So I think today, you know, what a lot of people are wondering is, do you think these pieces will ever be recovered? Even though it has been 25 years later and there has been endless hours of investigative work and commitment man and women power put to this case, I do in fact am optimistic. I am optimistic not because someone is going to finally realize that there is no better offer that can be made. The FBI U.S. Attorney's Office who's in charge of this investigation has said you will not be prosecuted if you bring in the artwork. Bring it back. You will not be prosecuted. And there is an existing crime of possession of stolen property and we will bring you to the museum which has a five million dollar offer outstanding for this artwork. Well that offer has been on the table for at least eight years and it has not gotten a single substantive credible contact. So in doing this book in reconstructing the crime as best I could tell with reporting, reporting in many ways learned here at Boston University, I came up with another theory. I came up with another approach and that uses I believe some of the modern technology of digital age crowdsourcing and crowdsourcing to a great degree was responsible for the capture of James Whitey Bulger and more importantly what took place last summer. Everyone knew about the ice bucket challenge because of crowdsourcing and I thought the way to get people to understand and feel the loss that the artwork that has been stolen and is still missing for 25 years to feel that loss not as a mystery not as a criminal case but as a loss of our culture. These paintings three or four of them are absolute masterpieces. The only seascape that Rembrandt ever painted. Only time he ever painted the sea was in a painting that was stolen from the Dutch room of the Gaggen Museum. The only Vermeer that we had here in New England only one stolen from in this theft that is our cultural history. That is a part of our common wealth yet we don't feel it. In the way I think to get those people who know something about where who was responsible or where the artwork more importantly where the artwork might be is to appeal to their brighter better angels is to appeal to that's a loss to your family to your children and your grandchildren. So make a call call the FBI it's not going to be publicly known they treat everything confidentially if you don't cannot if you don't trust whatever the authorities call a reporter call Steve Kirchen. Everyone's soul aim here now 25 years later is to get that artwork back in the wall so what I thought would be a way of putting out that appeal is get the leaders of our community Mayor Walsh incredible biography Cardinal O'Malley he gets into people's souls into their hearts better than anyone. Tom Brady and David Ortiz they helped us recover from the the marathon bombing. Get those men in front of get those individuals in front of this these empty frames at the Dutch Room of the and I think we the city those people who may know something will get stirred and feel sympathy and understand that this is a loss for all time they have to pick up the phone and let the FBI know where this material is in. So now the statute of limitations has run out on the actual theft itself. What do you think the goal is behind continuing the investigation and what do people hope to gain from solving? Well even though the theft itself is the statute has told that was told after five years I think Senator Ted Kennedy working with the museum the as well as with God the museum director in Hawley in other museum directors put in place afterwards a change in that statute so that a theft of music from a museum is a can be prosecuted for 20 years not for the gardener because it's after the fact that the change was made after the theft but you can still be prosecuted for possession of stolen property so if someone is holding them which is not a theory that I hold I don't think anybody knows exactly the whereabouts they do know rumors suggestions in your window and that's the it's that information that put together with what this the FBI has assembled as far as a case file I think we could find out pretty quickly where the material whom they're talking about and where the material might be. However if there is someone who knows about it knows the exact where and is holding it possessing it those people are responsible for possession of stolen property they could be apprehended prosecuted sent away for a very long time and be and in fact in fact be seen as the scoundrels of our city of our region I say tell them appeal to their consciences get them to be the princes in the princesses of the city tell us tell the authorities where that material is so we can gain that get get that artwork back on the wall there is no to me at this point 25 years later the the material was not stolen so some art collector art appreciator could not who could not live without seeing having the Rembrandt and either the three Rembrandts or the Vermeer on his wall I think it was stolen in order to begin a an exchange with the authorities to make a plea deal with one of their associates in the last chapter of my book talks about a scenario that makes pretty good sense to me but we have to reach there we have to reach their consciences in their conscience way I think of reaching their conscience I said the the reason that what was stolen from his long past whatever deal you are hoping to make that's all over so you get that material back so we can appreciate it and you can maybe get the art maybe get the get a piece of the reward or all the reward I think the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office is willing to make any concession to any person who knows it that their identity will never be known but the reward of their putting up their hand pointing out where in the in the geography this this material might be will be will be appreciated by anyone who goes back and see these paintings on the wall now this remains one of the FBI's 10 longest unsolved art crimes very much what do you think it is about this particular theft that has made it so hard for the FBI to solve when there is a great art stolen it does usually take unless there's an arrest made within 48 hours you know some forensic evidence is left behind it does usually take a matter of years to solve in this case what I think happened is the individuals who were responsible for the actual theft two or three that's all who knew about it it wasn't knowledge within a gang it was knowledge only amongst the two or three who pull in that gang who pulled it off there's no honor among these thieves they keep their what they're called scores they keep that to themselves because if another associate in the gang knows about it he or she could drop a dime on them and get some reward so my sense is that these individuals who did the actual theft and hid the material either giving it to a person who hid it for them or hid it themselves don't forget there were 45 FBI agents on the streets of Boston trying to track the trail I think that must have that must have you know the front page news every newscast was leading with it I think that probably startled them and they said let's let things cool down so they put the material away they hid it they're in a dangerous business as being members of these gangs there was a gang war going on in Boston in the late 80s through the early 90s and this took place in March of 1990 the man who stole it my belief is is in the middle of a gang war there was lots of people on both soldiers on both sides of this war both families that were fighters should be both gangs that were fighting that were casualties and my sense is that these individuals the two or three suffered the fate of of others in their gangs and were killed and with them I think just it's logic more than hard reporting that that they died they were killed but their kin their associates they have some inkling they have some um inkling is more suspicion that they were involved and those are the people who on on any other day on any other year and on any other anniversary say why should I get involved you know I'll be bothering somebody else's uh um uh treasure you know somebody else's school why should I get involved well I think we have to address that issue why should they get involved with the reason why you should get involved generations your children grandchildren are going to lose out in seeing these masterworks so you've touched on it a little bit but you know our nation and even the city of boston has plenty of unsolved crimes what do you think it is about this theft that makes it so important that we solve it well like I say it's uh I I've I've I've I've spoken about the the the importance and the beauty of the of the masterpieces themselves but for me a boston boy um who has seen this city change so remarkably to when I was growing up and going to public schools here that has become such a thriving diverse world-class city to think that we could get these masterpieces back for the right reason that someone brings them back it seems to me to be a crowning achievement and makes us you know I and I'm a hard hard reporter I go I've been you know my career at the globe go after with investigative reporting all sorts of criminality and waste and corruption of public money but with those artwork that artwork back in the wall I think we are an olympian city I think it would it would restore it would give us a confidence give us a pride uh that we've gotten back our masterpieces understand go to the boston public library stand up in front of the entrance on dot in the three you will see two major statues one of scientific and one of artistic achievement on the base of the artistic achievement statue there are eight names of artists throughout history throughout into bc six of those artists have their works shown at the garden museum there's no other museum anywhere in this area that has six of those and that that number that number of artists of their work showed at the museum that to me says that this is a special place it's a it is a special place not just for our artistic achievement but also a special center for the city and we want it to be be made whole and it will not be made whole until that work is better now I don't want to spoil anything that you have in the book here but do you have a theory as to who you think committed the crime you'll have to read the last chapter what i think best that i came up with is a motive that for the first time has been identified with individuals and that was there was a crime there was a gang war going on in the leader of one of the gangs uh had just recently been arrested two or three months before the theft and what he was told by one of his associates while he was in prison awaiting indictment which happened and uh sentencing which happened to me is a very very important clue and now has the fbi reached out to you at all with the release of the book uh do you think it'll help aid in their investigation in the the new material that i that i gained in the book uh from my reporting on the book certainly the first chapter and this uh dickens like character um who had the first idea for breaking into the museum and why he had it and what gang he told about it about that idea and the value of the of the artwork inside uh had long ago told the fbi about him in my interviewing with him and on the latest one just just as i began writing that chapter the last chapter i went sat down with anthony moary and jeff kelly the jeff is the fbi agent on the case and anthony moary is the investigator for the the museum and told him exactly what i i told the individual and you know in dealing with stories like this they're very sensitive and you've got to proceed very carefully and for reporter uh the way to do it carefully is tell the individual whom you are interviewing whether it's on the authority side or the bad work bad guy side what you want and why it's in their best advantage to talk to to talk to me it's what we do as reporters whether it's for tv or general assignment or investigative you know be honest with people and work hard in figuring out how you can convince someone what's in it for them to tell you a story and there's for five or six months in early 2000 early and mid 2014 i had some interviews that i think were really really worked but i also think there is a sense out there that it's time to get this artwork back and maybe with this book will help in that momentum maybe there's buzz that my being out there anthony being out anthony moary being out there jeff kelly misses uh in holly the director of the museum being out there talking about this it will not it will not be a cold case that's my fear that this will be treated like oh yes there's artwork oh yes there's a half a billion dollars worth of art missing oh yes we've lost the the precious valuables of our artistic achievements but why should i get involved and i think what the the arguments that i'm making that our generation your generation your children's generation those generations after unless there is a breakthrough now that we may go over a very long time before we get that back well steven kergton thank you very much for joining us today back to you in the studio