 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching the breakfast on plus TV Africa It's time for our hot topic and we're talking about 16 of 26 power plants record 37% capacity Amid inciscent grid collapses and joining us to have a conversation is a wisdom a chap jumble as a public affairs Analyst good morning. Thank you for joining us All right, so we're talking about 16 of 26 power plants there are Below capacity at the moment and we've been seen in fact for me I mean, I didn't have electricity for a couple of days, right? We've been seeing all of this grid collapses and I would say this is the most we've seen in the past few years So in the past few months, we've seen a lot of grid collapses even more than Let's say four or five years combined, right? So what is the reason why are the why do we have about 16 of them below capacity? Why are the grid collapsing? Well, thank you for having me once again First of all, we'll just stand by. Why are we having grid collapse research? I mean, we've had like two this year Mm-hmm And the issue is done. That is it. You see the minister of power and TCN Has also been doing this campaign around the reason the consent that has been continues Vandalization of power infrastructures in the country and if you vandalize any of those, for example the tours I mean you're just making the grid to also collapse because These infrastructures are key to making us have those power, you know that we have so first of all Vandalism is a major issue. I mean it has gone high recently unlike other years But in previous years leading to now, I think the issue of grid collapse has just been Overworking the grid itself, you know, the grid like we like to say the sector is really obsolete What we have as a grid now should be what it is for a country of 200 million people and We are overworking it, you know So when you work a system against where points and and what happens is it's going to bring down I want to issue for the grid Collapse itself is gas So there seems to have been limited gas supply To pass some of these infrastructures, which of course we experienced that in the first grid collapse I think it should actually be early this year when there was no power outage for about two three weeks I mean another week or two, you know So some of the issues that have been causing this grid collaboration most recently the major issue has been vandalism I don't know but vandalism when you talk about people vandalizing the equipments the Infrastructure and all that it means there is no security for these things and in other countries there's security for rail lines the security for Power lines and all that. Why is it such an issue in Nigeria? Why are the power lines not secure enough? Oh, yeah, I mean this is a key question as you've asked I think it's a question the minister of power needs to constantly answer I see them doing the campaign more frequently now. I mean report what you see, you know because It's becoming a big issue for them but why those Infrastructure is not secure enough Is the question I'm not sure I can really tell myself because I mean it should be no better Yes, that way we have these facilities. It should really be you know, secure enough Not just anybody to work in but aside that I mean as a people I think we need to This there's a culture issue. I mean, how do you just go and destroy or vandalize something? That's of benefit to me But to everybody Taxing the ministry of power to do his parts and government to do his part to secure some of these facilities I think as a people who also need to you know, how do we think or reflection on ourselves? How will people just go and see something that is serving the whole country not just you and then you want to go and destroy it You know, so this is really a big problem. And this is also an aspect we need to look at the legislation agency to begin to also promote Setting campaigns, you know, that also speaks to this to help the ministry of power to say, you know, look These are key things that you know Power as a people why we don't need to go and destroy the market on the issue is so I think it's a collective I shared a thought for everybody, but I think this is something the minister of power needs to lead I see the minister Is doing a lot in this area raising the concern. I see his treats every now and then So we need to give them the support. Yeah Well, like you've said, it's a collective effort for everybody But I think the ministry of power should be able to have some security agencies that have to be, you know Just have people man manned outside each power station to ensure that not just anybody can can go Give incentives to communities Yeah Because in this this facilities or structures are in different communities You know, maybe it's just speak to how you are decentralizing security itself We're going to be working community policing and all of those things You know, so there's a broad aperture to all of this, you know, because if the different communities where we have these infrastructures Maybe get it in studies and maybe getting them Yes to to make sure you know, they protect some of these things. Maybe it's an approach Yeah I'm not sure the strategy the ministry of power is using As regards this You know, but it should be your way to look at it to say, you know, what these things are in the country, you know, not Most of the vandalism is even, you know From the north centra down to the north and it was so there's a lot happening there Even the south a little bit on the south, but I think there's just some reports On things happening down down the north that we need to really look at I think they need to go to the drawing board and explore every option Here we've given like two options We're just going there and exploring every option Because at the end of the day, you're talking about security and that should be paramount because We can't be having a national grid collapsing like every now and then in fact, it's embarrassing It was super embarrassing when when the electricity companies now came out or minister of power celebrated 100 days of uninterrupted or Great not collapsing People are celebrating 50 years of the uninterrupted part. You're celebrating a week after that the Greeks collapsed And after that maybe within the same month it's collapsed like twice or so And all that but now if you are very inconsistent in Nigeria to say you just they behave like nepa Something about the fact that this infrastructure is obsolete and we agree with you In some countries according to one of our analysts, the the the electricity that comes to 200 million Nigerians is what goes to maybe one mall or one mosque or something And it's from here we're sharing less than 4,000 megawatts in a country of 200 million So we really need an upgrade of this infrastructure Is it so hard to upgrade the existing infrastructure to what you think will be the standard that can serve Nigeria? Wow, that's a good question Is one question we have also been asking within the sector within the space Well, I'll tell you something which I think we are on the path towards that The Nigeria electricity act that was passed sometime last year is sort of a way, you know to work results You know, so that act now Helps to decentralize power to the states You know and the states can now not only generate they can distribute and transmit and they can make their own laws At a present day about four states or five states, you know, I've been able to create their own electricity market and their policy And which is the way to go So when we Decentralize it and relieve the national grid of that overworking Then we make it easier you are beginning because I'm sure some of those states What they are now what they will now put as those infrastructures in their state will not be as obsolete as what we have as a national grid So again, when we reduce the stress When we reduce the stress, you know on the national grid itself and every state begin You know to create their own markets. We can see what abya state has done You can see I know a those states, you know, I also have their own policy legal state has had their own policy Also by the time every single state begin to take ownership of providing power in their different states Will reduce the burden on a national grid, you know And the question of is obsolete. Why can't we do the upgrade? Why can't we change it? I think it's a it's a very good question that we constantly ask government You know, what is taking this in 2013 when we privatize, you know, the sector one We hoped that that would have been the change You know, they agree that the space but unfortunately up to now is still something that we don't even understand Why we are still, you know, using the same system to serve 200 million people So I think this year going into the as we go into this year I want to see a lot of states. Let's see what they can come up with Let's see how they define those policies that decentralize the act You know, I create those different markets and hopefully I again in the mix of things We include the new energy sources like solar, you know, different states So we see a lot of things in the mix, which is why the act itself Allows for those mix with new energy sources, which of course I think can also really degrade Of all of these issues and I want the issue of gas, you know, which is also a big problem For the for the junkers, you know, and all of that. I mean, there's been a rise of about 31 percent So, I mean if we fix the issue of our upside If we if we if we solve the problem of gas itself I think that goes a long way. You think Nigeria having so much gas reserve We should not have a problem with gas, but the infrastructure issues You know that has limited us a lot on the issue of your gas, you know, which we also need to look at, you know So that that's sort of the problem For our power. So there's a lot of things in the mix of things. Right. Okay. So I want to talk about You know privatization and we know that there is the discourse, right? But people are calling for privatization for the entire sector Do you think that would help and let me just put into context We had the telecommunications industry that we had nitel at that point And then when there was privatization now you have several ones So there is some form of competition and then you know that it's a service based industry So you definitely want to give good services because that, you know, brings more revenue to you So now people are calling for privatization of the Entire electricity energy sector. Do you think that would be a good way to go and that way We might not be having the good collapses as we're seeing right now And also another question is if we have that for instance, can 900s afford the rates Because we're talking about tariff as well. Obviously if we privatize this no matter the amount it is We have no choice but to pay and some people would argue for me I would rather, you know, pay that high tariff than to be burning diesel Every night because diesel is expensive. There is also the noise pollution. There's a lot in the mix, right? So if there is privatization in Nigeria for the energy sector Is it going to be a good way to go and do you think the tariff will be affordable for Nigerians? I mean, this is what we did in 2013 The sector was privatized in 2013 We did that Not the entire value chain Governments, they held on to a certain part of it. You know, we also need to look at that But I think the bigger issue in all of this privatization conversation is allowing Nigerians to pay for the actual cost of the power they consume And I believe Nigerians are willing to pay A lot of Nigerians are willing to Excuse me, I'm just going to cut you there, right? Nigerians are willing to pay, right? A few months ago or a few weeks ago the minister of power had come out to say they wanted to take out electricity subsidy Although that's a lot because petrol subsidy has gone within the hike in transportation So adding the electricity Exactly And then Nigerians don't mind paying for, you know, what they consume as long as I'm seeing the power So if we pay for that, are we going to see 24 hours? I honestly, if I'm being honest with you, I can manage 18 hours. I'm not going to be greedy To be honest The people who kind of fought power the way it is Even now with the subsidy are quite few You understand that the tariff you pay in leki Is different from what the pay in Ikorodu for instance And that is like the place like Magoodu pays Yes, so the pay higher for people to Get more electricity and others are not able to get as much electricity because the tariff is low So people are still complaining even at this time So do you think the majority of Nigerians who would want to use this electricity like she asked Can afford it? I think the assurance first of all, I mean thinking like I'm not going to Nigerian I think is that trust that will be power be available I think Nigerians They are so resilient that I mean they can get you know what they want to get but I think is that assurance that trust if I'm willing to pay for this will I get the power I'm paying for Which is now more work on government and the sector itself to say look Can we assure Nigerians that if we say we'll give them 20 hours 24 hours And and they will pay to so amount of money with this power be available Remind reminded that also businesses can even benefit from this largely because they're spending a chunk of their resources You know to provide power for themselves You know where I live And there's a bank or there are two banks close to me And when I hear the generator Every single time I just worry how much he loan a branch Consumes Just to keep the bank running ATMs and everything it's a lot if we can provide power for businesses You imagine that this Companies or organization businesses what money to put back to even employ more people and that tells on the economy itself You know, so I think the issue is Trust you know can we trust that if we say we will pay this amount Will this power be available? Yeah, will you not come and tell me one month after that the grid has good maps again? Availability of the forms to pay I'm running on a 35,000 era in a long wage and I see it's crying for a lot more Adjuvants are saying even 50,000. They're not able to pay how can so imagine someone earning 50,000 Will he be cut off because even now people are paying maybe 10,000 before the end of the month the the newest person always who has to prepay amortization paying 10,000 And then you're earning 25,000. You've not talked about going to work You've not talked about buying garlic which has a small robot paint that used to go for Yeah Now going up to 3000 So if you know all these things you find out that your life remains your life ends in one week Yeah, that's that's what's called make ends meet So you just you just You The I mean the concern I mean with everything happening. Is this the best time, you know, if we even want to You know how the subsidy to put the subsidy on power and all of that, but I think the sector itself is being it's hitting so hard And I can imagine how much losses for example the discos, you know make The losses are a lot, you know, so we need to sit down to agree If we want to make this available in the way for Nigerians, how much will it really cost? How can we begin to gradually make this easier for Nigerians because I know for sure I mean it's it's cheaper than even buying the diesel And the petrol you look at the cost of petrol in the last one year Leading to now look at how the increase has gone. Yeah, you can you can imagine how much, you know People must have consumed using while most of the time I always project, you know solar to a lot of people You know, because that will save you a lot of costs in the long way You can only the initial cost to get a solar for your house might be a bit high But when you look at this in the long run itself, you have saved so much money because your panels can last 20 years your batteries the good lithium batteries can last you for this five to seven years So imagine the cost you will save for the next five years. You don't even have to remember I know people that don't even remember that there is nipple lights as we call it You know, because they have moved to solar. I have also moved to solar because it's it's that's the only sustainable way But shouldn't the government be able to provide power for you? Like are we supposed to be? Yes And another concern I have is if we're seeing the national grid collapse in like twice in a month Are we going to get to the point whereby it's collapsing like every other day? Is it going to get to that irreparable? It almost got to that The collapse was was consistent You know, I was a big issue So the moment I didn't see lights for 24 hours. I just go to twitter to check the grid as collapse. Yeah So that's the way forward now as we wrap it up. What's the way like? How can we ensure that we have? A sustainable energy sector in Nigeria. What would you advise the government to do at this point? Well, I see what the ministry of power is doing Engaging stakeholders constantly MEC is also engaging Stakeholders constantly that is good. We need to continue to engage on the way forward We also need to look at how we can support different states as they decentralize To begin to get power for themselves. There are policies and all of that I know MEC is providing support in different ways for those that is a good way to go And then we need to fix the issue of gas. I like what President Unibu did when he came into office He created a ministry I mean a minister for state for gas and that shows how important I mean the government sees this issue of gas, which is good So we need to look at that entire gas value chain Engage stakeholders. How can we improve this? We need this to power the country What are the infrastructural needs? And we need to put in place. Where are we lacking? Because there's also vandalism In that area, which has made some multinationalists are also leaving the offshore You know to go offshore, you know, so what is happening within there? How do we fix it? I see MNPC is leading that with security agencies a lot around the Niger Delta region We need to do more of that. Okay. Yes. So I think these are just some of the ideas we can Put together to see how do we fix this power issue? We can fix it. I'm not sure All right, thank you so much. We can with wisdom chap jumbo, I remember And we've just been talking about the energy sector and how the incest and grid collapses have been and hopefully we We just hope that, you know, everything will be sorted and then the government would give The adequate resources for the energy sector and if you want to say thank you for coming. Thank you We'll go on a short break on one return. We'll be looking at our next hot topic. Please stay with us