 I'm Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here for the new 21 Report. I'm sitting with Ken Curry, marriage and family therapist, author, public speaker. How you doing, Ken? Good to see you. Thanks, Will. Good to see you. Good to see you. Absolutely. What was the title of your talk this year? I've talked to, I'm gonna be doing two talks. Okay. And so my first talk was to the Patriarch Convention with men, fathers. And the title of that was the power grid. Oh, wow. And so I was talking about how men do power. And especially the biggest part of it was the distinction between how the world does power and it's more of a zero sum power. Remember zero sum is the plus one minus one equals zero, which means that when it comes to power, somebody has the power, somebody doesn't have the power. And so that's how the most people see power as a struggle between who's got the power and who doesn't have the power. So in essence, my conversation with the guys was the opposite of that, which is abundance power, which is the belief that there's plenty of power to go around. And in abundance power, it's not a struggle for who's got power, but how do we empower everybody? And so my challenge for the guys was how do you become as powerful as you can as a man with not with the assumption that if I have power as a zero sum power, it's power over where I have the power as a dad, but it's power for, where my power as a man is for my family, for my wife to really empower her, to empower my kids, to empower my community, to empower my friends, because with abundance power, there's plenty of power to go around for everybody. And the more powerful I become as a man, I empower my wife, she becomes more powerful, she actually begins to empower me. And we, as a power couple, begin to empower our kids and they become more powerful, especially as they move into their teenage years and begin to learn how to build their own power and their own sovereignty, their own autonomy. And as they become stronger, they get in through school, they build their trades, they build, they're able to then really expand their influence in the world and everybody becomes more powerful. So in essence, that's kind of the gist of the conversation that I had with the fathers yesterday. So that sounds like a conversation that you've had out in the world quite a bit or perhaps tried to. Do you notice a difference between out in, say the regular world having that conversation with the men here at 21? Like how, difference in how the conversation goes, let's say. Yeah, oh my gosh. So out in the world, so to speak, the different times that I've been able to, because I'm invited quite often to talk to different groups about what I do. And in essence, and I always describe this, what I do as a therapist, as a man, part of my mission, my passion, what I want to accomplish in life, my purpose. Really is empowering men. That's what I really feel like that's in essence, empowering men. And so when I talk about empowering men, most people live in the zero sum world, so they get triggered or they question, how can you empower men, that's not right. And actually, most men feel that, that most men don't know what to do with their power because they've heard and listened to the narrative and the story that's out there, that if you're powerful, you're an oppressor and you're an abuser and you're a tyrant or your power's over and you're keeping everybody down and all this, and that is so far from the truth. And so kind of the difference between being able to speak in the world with people who live in a zero sum ideal, versus here at the 21, this is a fun place because the guys, they're soaking it up, going, oh, that's what my power is all about. My power isn't a tyrannical power, it's a power for. My power is for other people. And so really encouraging other men to become powerful and strong is a really good thing and the guys feel, they feel it and go, that's amazing that that is what I'm called to do as a man. And they don't hear this message. They don't hear the, yeah, they don't hear the, gosh, what do you call it, the encouragement or challenge to actually become stronger in anywhere else on our planet, because they're called to give up their power or to be small or to withdraw. And yeah, so I think that's an answer to your question. No, that's perfect, because I think a lot of people look at 21 and they think, oh, this is men being powerful, so they can be powerful over women. Over, exactly. That's not the character, it's counterintuitive as far as the world's concerned, but we know what it's really about. It's a beautiful thing. The whole idea of power for is a beautiful thing. It really is, I'm becoming as powerful as I can as a man, not to be power over and to control and to be authoritarian, but to use my power to protect, to provide, to encourage, to strengthen the people who I love. And that's a really different type of message than most men have heard. Was there a man who approached you after your talk and said, wow, this, maybe without giving away to me and identifying details, like did you have an experience for a man connecting with you and saying this really landed for me? It's funny, because this time it didn't happen. Okay. And so, yeah. What happened before? It totally happens before. This time, under the circumstances that we had, because there was a, my speech came on the heels of another guy who was a really significant speaker, and I think the guys were fairly glassy-eyed with that, but because his speech was so powerful, when I was, so when it was afterwards, so I didn't, it's interesting that you ask, but it was, I didn't have that kind of interaction because I think the guys really, it was like they had gotten a really strong, what do you call it? Almost like a fire hose of really intense information that morning. Yeah, the men here, they take in a lot. There's a lot to take in. There is a lot, there is a lot, yeah. How would you compare this year's 21, which is now the 21 summit to previous years? I know there's three conferences at once, there's two conferences of men, one conference of women, women, how would that compare to previous years when you've spoken? The previous times it was just the 21. So this time you have the summit where there's all three going on at the same time and there's a lot going on. There's just so many. So for me it's kind of frustrating because do I listen to, you know, Jack Donovan? Do I listen to Tanner Guzzi? And it's just been really tough, kind of where do I go to listen? Because there's so many good speakers and so much good content to be able to listen to. That's the only frustrating part about it is there's just so much, I have to choose, you know, where do I go to listen to whatever. But it's just been really an honor to be able to speak like this year to the men, to the fathers. And then I'm gonna be speaking on Sunday to the women in the 22 convention. And I feel like that's a really an honor for me because I do a lot of speaking to women regularly. I'll speak at different women's groups and I'll be teaching them on Sunday a different category of just the seasons of marriage and how women especially are kind of, they kind of have been pulled into this consumerism of consumers of a type of marriage or a type of expectation about what marriage is gonna provide them. And so that's gonna be a really profound speech as well. Wow, can you give us like a sneak preview of some of the things that you'll say? I'm really curious. There are a lot of men here who are married, there are a lot of men who want to get married, there are a lot of men who dread marriage. And I think because it's kind of like a black box, you know, as we talked about earlier in Hollywood movies, marriage is the end of the movie. Like, yeah, we made it to the marriage. It's like, that's the beginning. Or Disney, either happily ever after. Exactly. Here comes French charming. And then happily ever after. And you don't hear anything afterwards. Because they're happily ever after, right? That's the yada yada yada of romance. That's the consumerism. This is what it is. And we'll get you to there and we'll sell you all this stuff like the diamond engagement ring and all this good stuff, you know, and get you to that point of the wedding. But nobody talks about what happens afterwards. And they need to. What happens when the honeymoon is over and that is an absolute essential part of every relationship. Where there's a point, you have the honeymoon and enjoy it. It's amazing. It's built on chemistry, on oxytocin and dopamine and all this really good stuff. It feels amazing. But every relationship goes to a place where the honeymoon's over. Once you have kids, or sometimes you can't have kids. You have miscarriages or you do the IVF and different things like that. That's equally as devastating as having kids. But when you have kids, it's like you don't get sleep. Everybody's working out of a deficit. All of a sudden you're not making me happy or we don't feel the chemistry anymore. And so that moment of a relationship, you have to think of it as the honeymoon's over. There's chaos, but nothing's wrong with the relationship because the relationship is designed to grow you up. And one of my quotes is from David Schnarsh. He says, marriage is a people growing machine. Amazing. It grows you up. That's what it's designed to do. And we've not been told this. We've been told it's chemistry. And so when the chemistry diminishes, we think the relationship is horrible and it's over and it's bad. It's the classic I love you, but I'm not in love with you. Right. And that is one of the worst statements ever because the in love is I don't feel the chemistry anymore. Right. That's not the time to break from your relationship. And that's when most people do and they get a divorce. And so it's at that point, we can make a really good decision to go, I'm in to grow up. So the three things I'm gonna talk about, you can lawyer up, you can suck it up, or you can grow up. That's awesome. Yeah, and you have those options. And a lot of people lawyer up, they get a divorce and they're out, or you can suck it up. And that is just die, live for the kids. But usually those relationships suck it up. They'll finally get a divorce at empty nest. They'll live for the kids, as soon as the kids are gone, I'm out. But they'll suck it up for that long. Or you can grow up. You know, what is this teaching me? How can I grow to become who I am? To be able to become a more healthy human being. And that's a really significant thing when people choose to do that. And that's my encouragement to really take this season of the marriage. It's not easy. It is easily the most difficult season of a marriage when the honeymoon's over and you have kids. But be able to take it as, what do I need to learn? How do I need to grow and move from there? So in a sense, that's my talk to the 22 convention this year as well. That's great. I mean, I think there's so much to be gained from that form of, I guess you might say, noble struggle in a way. It's a struggle against yourself, not necessarily your partner. It's a struggle and my encouragement is to collaborate. Where let's struggle, let's do this as a team. Because it's so easy when that happens where there's this level of animosity where the other person becomes my enemy because they're not providing happiness. And I'm over here, I'm over here sucking air trying to survive. And while you're both sucking air trying to survive, nobody's getting sleep and that type of thing. But you blame and you cast that onto the other person where they're not providing my happiness. And so therefore they become my enemy and that is such a devastating place in a relationship. So you have to get to a spot where I have to believe the best in them, that they're in this too. And how do we actually reclaim that teamwork and collaboration, that's the way you can actually get through this thing. And what you've got me thinking about is, the talk that you gave, putting the talk that you're doing at 22 together with the patriarch's talk is that, it would be easy to fall into a power over kind of dynamic. Where it's like even if you come into a situation like that with a power together or a power of, or four, power four dynamic, that would be really easy once the screws get put to the relationship, kids sleep and all that stuff or the struggles of everyday life. Job loss, death in the family, all the rest of it. Yeah, you fall into the power over dynamic between the two people. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's so many other things that it might be besides kids, like job loss or death in the family or health issues, so many things happen. It's just more common that it comes when the kids are born. But nobody tells us this stuff. Nobody tells us any of it. Because like you said, you know, you get married happily ever after. And it's like, I wanna be a type of person that tells you the truth. This is what relationship is all about. It's gonna grow you up. It's gonna make you stronger. And it's gonna make your relationship stronger. And you can build on a different platform that creates such a more powerful and healthy relationship. And the fun thing is that I can report, this is what I've been able to do in my own life. And that's what's really fun about this, just being able to, when I encourage people, it's not something that I look at and go, hey, you need to do this. It's like, I've done it and it works. And it's freaking amazing. And it's actually kind of fun. Well, joy in doing that, right? For yourself and others. You're a marriage and family therapist. You see this all the time, every day. All the time, yeah. It's a really big deal. And so what do you get out of coming to 21? That's a great question. Thank you, I think so too. So I really enjoy the camaraderie. I enjoy the energy. I enjoy the passion because when I said, my purpose is empowering men, it feels like that's the purpose of the 21 convention. We wanna be able to do something where men have a place to where there's a conversation that actually is empowering. It's you can be a man, you can be strong, you can be substantive, you can follow your dreams, you can listen to your heart, you can trust your heart. And so many things, so many messages we get from the world, you know, the old toxic masculinity and all this stuff where you can't trust yourself, you can't be yourself. And I'm talking, not just trust yourself or be yourself, be the best version of yourself and be the strongest self that you can be. And that's what I really love about it is just, there's so many voices saying, come on, let's do this. Let's get strong together, whether it's physically, spiritually, relationally, it's just let's do strength together. I really, really enjoy the networking, the friendships that I build, the conversations that we have. It's just a lot of fun. Yeah, I agree with you completely. It's counterintuitive that men coming together could have fun and smile, you know, and enjoy and laugh and be together and learn about these things. Exactly. It's a wonderful experience. So you mentioned that you're a marriage and family therapist in Colorado, right? In Colorado, that's right. And so one of the things people can get a hold of me or look at my website, which is solidman.com. You also have a number of books that you've published as well in the community. Talk more about it. I'm curious about that myself. So right now I have four books and there's one more coming. So I have a series of five. So the four books are basically the material that I have used in my men's groups to be able to help men become stronger and to work through a number of different issues. And so those four books are available on Amazon. And talk a bit about your solid men men's groups. I know a lot of men are looking for community today. So my men's groups, I have the guys going through the different curriculum that I have working from, there's 17 lessons that the guys work through. Nice. And so, and it's really important the whole idea of actually doing a men's group. I think there's a number of different, well, there's reasons why. Because most men are isolated. Most men are only connected with women. And they're not very connected with men. So coming together with a group of men where you actually are able to explore what's going on inside of you. And begin to make that really significant shift from being externally referenced to internally referenced. That's a really big part of my groups. And to where a man can actually process that material with other men. And you hear other men going through their struggles and having their victories. It's a really, really powerful thing that men be involved with other men. So I have a few groups that I have. I have some locally and I have online group as well. And so some different things that are available, solidman.com. Thank you for all your contributions to men here. I know my brothers, many of whom are here, really enjoyed your talk at Patriarchs as well. So thank you for everything that you do. You bet, Will. Thank you. It's been great talking with you, Ken. You too. This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men in the New 21 Report with Ken Curry. Thank you.