 And then I didn't hear anything about her until six days after I didn't know who she was or that she had disappeared. His wife said, no, we had an unplanned vacation on the 22nd. He dumped our dogs, set fire to the, somehow set fire to the family car and had it crushed. There's all kinds of shit in the details. Wow. Set fire to the family car and how? Well, it somehow burst into flames while he was digging in the backyard. Love it. So ultimately, outside of all of that, he's a known, he's a known person in his local area for being, oh yeah, he's been like in trouble for this in trouble for that. He's lived in about eight or nine states, I think. Right. 20 millimeters, that's a good, that's a good sheet, man. It's a good amount. It's a solid, yeah. It's a solid sheet. All right. I guess are you ready? We'll start. We're ready. Let's roll. Yeah. Okay. Let's go. All right. Here we go. I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst. I train law enforcement in the military in the interrogation and body language. And I created with Greg Hartley, BodyLanguageTactics.com. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they speak, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. I'm Chase Hughes. I am a behavioral expert, number one bestselling author in behavior profiling, persuasion and influence. And I develop tactics for intelligence agencies and I train the general public, right? I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written a bunch of books on body language and behavior and Scott and I put together BodyLanguageTactics.com. And I spend most of my time on Wall Street and in corporate America. Excellent. All right. But today we're going to talk about Steve Panky. And Steve is in trouble for the suspected murder of a girl named Jo Nail, Matthews, back in 1984. Greg, you found the video, why don't you give us a little bit? Yeah, so this is one of those cases. Apparently this guy showed a lot of interest in the case way back in 1984, which made him a little suspicious of him over time. When they found the body, I think then there's some other reasons in their long list. If you go out and do your research, there's a long list of reasons they indicted him. He has run for governor of Idaho twice. He's moved around a lot. His story's an interesting one. Where we got this video is he was willing to sit for an hour on a park bench and talk to a reporter. And the parts of the video, we're looking at are deep into that interview, not the very first part. So we'll talk a little bit about his baseline and what we saw of it. You can find plenty of video of him because he ran for governor twice. Excellent. All right. All right. Well, this is a cold case. So let's view it that way and we'll get started. You ready? Yep. Here we go. At least it looks as if it was you that's commented on a few stories online. Right. The Greeley Tribune story as well as another one. Read the comments. One of the comments was who, question mark, why question mark. Yeah. And then another comment was without a deal, this may never be resolved. Right. And what did you mean by without a deal, this may never be resolved? Just that. Without a deal, it may never be resolved. What kind of deal would you be looking for? Well, not necessarily for me. I mean, it is, my son was murdered in 2008. A deal was made to avoid a jury trial. And that's how it's done. Deals are done all the time. So if you read all those comments, I did say who, why. Okay. Mark, you wanna go first? Yeah, sure. So you know what this reminds me of. If you go back and you look at one of our older videos on Prince Andrew, there are some similarities to I think, to what we're seeing with Prince Andrew. Let me take you through it. Deals are done all of the time. And then there's this downward inflection. He informs of this. Deals are done all of the time. Then he waits, but the interviewer isn't giving him any kind of confirmation that he's buying into this whole thing. And he's a long way into this now. I mean, he built up to this and he hadn't really got any explanation, but deals are done all of the time. So he looks to him, do you confirm that? And the interviewer comes back with nothing for him. So he looks sideways and leans in with that kind of feeling of, are you not going with this? Do I need to give you anything more? Is this going well for me? And it reminds me of Prince Andrew going. So, well, you see in the Navy and that leaning and that look, like the interviewer were going, oh, I see, deals are done all the time. Oh, in the Navy, I get it. Well, okay, let's just call off everything. Stop the whole interview. You've just absolutely proved it to us. No need for any more interview on this. That for me, that lean in, that ask for confirmation, for me is a red flag of someone is going on here. He really desperately wants some confirmation and the interviewer isn't giving it to him. I'm going to leave it at that because this is absolutely packed and I want plenty of other stuff for others to cover. Greg, I want to go to you. What do you got for it? Yeah, so I'm just going to cover two points, two very important points. He does something we call a push-pull word in here, not necessarily for me. Well, hell, if you ask me, it's not about me. If I'm talking about a deal, it's certainly not about me. When he does that, he purses his lips, he turns away and he eye blocks. As he does that, it's not necessarily about me. That's point one. When he comes back, Mark, when he's doing that other piece, he's starting to educate and you can see it. It's almost where he's in his space, where he's going to educate, put his head down and drive that. From that, start paying attention to his lips and him licking his lips in that piece because it's going to build up throughout this as fight or flight starts to get in. And I'm going to leave it at that and hand it to what do you got, Chase? If you watch this back, you'll see a sudden shift from abdominal breathing to chest breathing and you'll see him hold his breath firmly until he figures out what the question is about. And then you see increase in the breathing rate there. And there's use of the word, not necessarily for me, tremendous point of potential deception there, but there's a redirect to something called a positive admission. So I'm going to admit that this other part of the question was me, which is indicative of people who are typically guilty on the behavioral table of elements. Just write down the numbers. He would have scored a 12 and you needed an 11 or higher to have a high likelihood of deception. Explain what that table is. So the table of elements is a periodic table of all human behavior, my best attempt at such. And everything can be added up to include relaxed gestures and stress gestures and everything that we could possibly do. Someone's swallowing, crossing their arms and it's got a deception rating number on every behavior. Where can we get that Chase? Oh, thanks, Scott. Go to chaseuse.com right here and download it absolutely free so you can watch the rest of the videos with or the debates. Hey, Scott, one quick note. People have asked us to go back and explain. So when I say a push pull word, what I mean is a word that has negotiability in it. Like you say, I'm 100% honest. Well, if you're honest, you don't need to say 100% or not necessarily me instead of not me, right? That kind of thing. Right, perfect, perfect. All right, well, now as we go through these and each one of these videos, it's important to keep in mind what we're seeing. A lot of people are gonna say, well, there's not a whole lot here. This was so packed full of stuff, even though there's not a lot, it doesn't look like a lot going on body language wise. It's packed, it's packed. And we all forgot the shits and giggles because there's so much in it and so much going on. Having said that, keep in mind that, and I'll explain to you the way the brain works when you begin lying. Lying is a complex task. And when you begin lying, you use the frontal cortex as engaged because that's where you do all your multitasking. That's where all that happens. And once that's engaged and you're trying to talk and you're trying to do other things to get your point across, that's when you start doing things like in what we saw in this clip where what I call loose illustrators. Where you'll be talking. And the next thing you know, your hands are just moving, but you're not emphasizing specific words or phrases like illustrators do. Like I just said, specific words or phrases, that's an illustrator, those are illustrators. Another thing we see in here that is just beautiful that we see throughout the whole, through this series of videos we're gonna watch, is it starts shaking like this the whole, the entire time. That's part of his baseline when he's doing this. I watched one of the governor, when he was running for governor, I watched one of the things that he wasn't doing that. So that's not part of his natural baseline. So in this situation, he's got so much going on. He's trying to think about what he's gonna say, make sure he gets his point across, make sure he's saying it correctly because he's not said this stuff out loud the way he's saying it now before. And we'll go over why in a little while. So those are really important to pay attention to why he's doing all this. And that's what you're looking for. It's his brains firing off so many things because it's prefrontal cortex is busy, busy, busy. All right, anybody got anything else? Yeah, I mean, just one thing, which is look out for that moment where he pauses for a very, very long time and goes through a number of very, very small movements. I would suggest, and we see that breathing change as well at that point, that I would say is him going, hang on, what's my strategy gonna be here? And he can't work it out. Yeah, so he's really, he's on his toes here. So pay attention to that cadence throughout. I think it's important. Yeah, because it changes often. At least, you know, it looks as if it was you that's commented on a few stories online. Right. The Greeley Tribune story as well as another one. Read the comments. One of the comments was who, question mark, why question mark. Yeah. And then another comment was, without a deal, this may never be resolved. Right. And what did you mean by without a deal, this may never be resolved? Just that. Without a deal, it may never be resolved. What kind of deal would you be looking for? Well, not necessarily for me. I mean, it is, my son was murdered in 2008. A deal was made to avoid a jury trial. And that's how it's done. Deals are done all the time. So if you read all those comments, I did say who, why. Yeah, right, here we go. Let's look at number two. And then can you tell me why you want it to be resolved? So it's, so it's, so it's resolved. So it's over with. So that family has the same closure that I have, okay? That's. And also, I mean, talk about, wouldn't you like it resolved to maybe have your name cleared or? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Without a doubt. Okay, Greg, you wanna go? Yeah, so this one I'm gonna give a little bit on. I'll try to keep it short. This one is so loaded. Let me first start by saying, listen to his mucus membranes crackling as he tries to move his mouth. He's mouth grooming, meaning he's moving his tongue around. That's fight or flight setting and stress. He goes into this, so it's resolved. That's not the word I think I would typically use. That seems like closure might be a word I would use or something I would poke on. What do you mean by resolved? They know that she's dead. So what are you talking about? Then he does his shoulders up, but he doesn't ask for requests for approval. He doesn't raise his brow saying, hey, do you agree with me? And then when they get to, and I'm gonna just hit one point on this and leave most of it to you guys, when they get to, wouldn't you like your name cleared? His brow rises like, oh, never thought of that one. And that immediately would make any interrogator turn on him and go after him really hard. At no, absolutely. And then he shakes his head. No, while he's saying yes, absolutely is what I would do. So there's that piece of body language that he uses consistently throughout this messaging for negative when he's saying a positive message. Scott, what do you get? All right, when he starts saying, when he gets to the point where he says absolutely without a doubt, his voice has been fairly strong up to that point. But then he does what's called fading facts, whereas it gets quieter as you go along. And he seems almost like he's calming down, but he's flipping out because his mouth is open quite often, quite a bit of the time. And I go with the other thing, Greg, about the fight-or-flight kicking in, his mucus and messing with his mouth. His mouth is open because you see him take that deep breath and then sort of relax as he starts going along. This starts getting quieter and quieter as he moves along. Another thing when his head's shaking, no, it's going between shaking, no, and shaking, yes. And then it does this little Indian bobble a little bit back and forth as he's doing that. I've never seen this before. I've never seen someone do that many little head shakes forward and backward and up and down and side to side before in my life. I've never seen this before. So this is bizarre behavior for me. So unless anybody else seen anything like that before? I've seen people do that under high duress when they're trying to figure out which way to, I won't use my eloquent English for what I would usually say, but yeah, when they're trying to figure out which way they're going, I've seen it in an interrogation room, yeah. Okay, cool, cool. All right, so that's all I've got for that one. So that suggests to me that he's working and he's working through his, he's been confronted with something and he's being deceptive about it. All right, Chase, what do you got? So we see when he says absolutely and without a doubt, we see micro little shoulder shrugs with both of those little phrases. We also saw everything everyone else talked about here. If I was the interrogator, I would say personally, what's the most emotional reason that you have for this to be resolved? Just on a personal level. And that would reveal probably a lot more. I think we would get either a baseline or a good deviation from baseline from this to catch him up, forcing him to bring some kind of fabricated emotion into the conversation. And on the BTOE behavioral table, he only scored an eight for this. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, lovely. So I want to talk about my little dog, Peach, because Peach is a terrible liar. And so her behavior just floods out. She doesn't have a part of her brain to kind of hold back that instinct. And here's what I see in this character that we're watching, which is very similar to Peach, is when Peach wants me to play along with the game and play ball, she will take the ball and she'll just nudge it along with a nose, going, are you gonna play? Are you coming along with me? He does exactly the same thing. After he says that family deserve to have, so the family have the same closure as I have, his head goes to one side and he starts to moderate the conversation by just nudging the ball along a bit. Watch him to say, are you gonna play along with this? Are we gonna move along on this together? And the interviewer is having none of it, is putting under some real pressure here because he's not gonna move along, he's not playing along with this. So go back to that and watch that, and watch that little ball being nudged along by this little puppy. Brilliant. Yeah, as usual. And then can you tell me why you want it to be resolved? So it's resolved, so it's over with. So that family has the same closure that I have, okay? That's... And also, I mean, talk about, wouldn't you like it resolved to maybe have your name cleared or? Oh, absolutely, absolutely, without a doubt. All right, here we go. So what's the next one? It's one last thing. Did you hear earlier this summer that her body was exhumed or found, I should say? Yes. On Northern... Yes, I saw that online. That's a totally legal thing to do is look online. Yeah. When a Greeley cops come to you and accuse you of, or wanna talk to you about this, it's a pretty prudent thing to go online and check on what's the updates. So... All right, Chase, what do you got? Yes, we have something that David Givens is the original researcher, as far as I know, on this topic. And this is a chin withdrawal. The lower jaw pulls back and away from the interviewer here. And that's kind of a self-regulation. He's saying, I need to really reign this in. This is a big question. Totally legal. This is the first time both of his hands come to life, symmetrically, or at the same time at least. And he almost comes forward off the seat. He almost gets his back off the chair here, leans forward to get some generating focus, generating some more interest. And we also see his side preference or gestural hemisphere tendency for positive, negative. When people do this gesturing thing, we see to his right, when he's talking about the police, he's gesturing to his right. So if I was the interrogator, where would I want him? I would want to be on his left and the door to the interrogation room that where all the police are, not me, of course, are to his right. We would wanna set that up that way just from that short conversation there. And he uses the words about this. Not the incident. He was absolutely comfortable saying that his son was murdered. He used the word murder very comfortably. Then he says about this. So this is called psychological distancing or severity softening, depending on who you talk to instead of steal, somebody might say take. Instead of saying rape, somebody might say have sex with. So there's kind of a good stack there. I'm gonna leave the rest of it alone. There's a whole bunch here. I think everybody else unpack on the deception score. He scored a 12 for this. Excellent, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I wanna get on a couple of things. Obviously, that's a totally legal thing to do, to look online. Yeah, it is a totally, it doesn't really need saying. And the fact that he says it, obviously, I'm sure as you watching this, when you heard that, you went, hang on, hang on. We do the same. That was for all of us, I think, a laugh out loud when he says that because it doesn't need saying that going online is legal. We know that. So if that's legal, what does he think isn't a legal thing to do? What's the opposite of that would be my inquiry here. But I just wanna say the other thing I wanna say is just how good this interviewer is. Just really good. And there's a lot of Colombo fans on the panel here right now and I'm sure watching at home, you might be a Colombo fan as well. The interviewer opens with one last thing, which obviously isn't the last thing because we've got a whole bunch of other stuff that we're gonna talk about. It isn't the last question done. But in my understanding, that was a classic Colombo method of going, oh, right away, one last thing. That thing of just trying to disarm somebody, disarm somebody by going, oh, thank you. This is finished. Okay, I can now answer and get this person out. Brilliant fun watching this, including the interviewer who's clearly a Colombo fan as well. So you got, oh, okay. Well, he begins as out of his baseline for what we've seen so far, he begins answering a lot sooner than he does with the other ones. And he says, yes. It's like he asked the question and boom, there's the yes. So this is one of those answers I think he's prepared for. Because he's thought about this. A lot of these things he hasn't said out loud. I don't think anybody's come, he's been interviewed about these things, but he's been thinking about them since then, how to phrase them, how to put them together so they sound more believable. So he just fires off that yes as he begins to answer. Also, Greg, you said his sheet had 20 misdemeanors. When you have someone who's gotten away with a lot of things before and they're thinking they're gonna get away with this as well, you'll see him get all giggly about it. And that's what we're seeing here. He's getting that thing like, man, this is nothing for me. I think he feels like he's getting away with this as well because he's gotten away with so many smaller things, so many little bitty things. We've had the conversation Greg and I did about how there may be some other things to look for in the towns. He's been at lived in so many different places to look in the towns if somebody from those police departments are watching, look around and maybe there's some things that this guy did in your town that you're looking for the answer for. Start looking at this guy because he looks like he believes he's getting away with something. And his answer, when he leans back and starts to give an answer, it doesn't have quite the punch he wants it to have even though he's given it. So that's why we see him get, another reason we see him get kind of iffy with all that behavior. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so I always talk about fighter flight because it is one of the most powerful things in our bodies. And Scott, you started talking about prefrontal cortex and that starts turning off once you get into fighter flight. So once the amygdala identifies a threat, then you start dumping stress hormones in your body and that starts to turn off and you start to think like a cat instead of a human. You respond. And he's doing some of that. I rarely have heard this much dry mouth outside of Sear School. I mean, I've interrogated real prisoners and Sear School guys. And this sounds like Sear School, dry, dry mouth, all of the aggression and things that go with that. So it takes blood flow away from the mucous membranes and you can't miss it. In fact, in Sear, you would see people starting to build up protein in the corners of their mouth from mucous membranes being destroyed by stress. Only place I've seen it. His blink rate increases when he touches his nose. This is a stress comforter for him. That's an adapter in some way. Now, people will tell you that in absolute is if you touch your nose, you're lying, no. But in this, you'll see further into the interview, he does it in a couple of stress times. He also pushes his tongue out and he's been licking his lips all the time but he hasn't pushed his tongue out. At accused, he leans out, drops away into a nervous laugh. And Scott, I think he's flirting with disaster as a term I would use. I think he thinks he's got some potential to dance around this thing. And he may even be intentionally engaging the police this way. But I think he's gonna get hooked if he keeps doing what he's doing. Then he touches his nose and his mouth goes to a blocking maneuver. He touches his nose with his hand or his finger and then his hand goes across in a blocking maneuver. And Chase, I think you did a brilliantly eloquent explanation of that once before when a little kid goes, it's that same thing. They don't even believe what they're saying. And that nervous laughter at the Greeley police we'll see again. I think this guy is in for real trouble. And if I were interrogating him, I would be all over that nervous laugh. I would be all over the things where he's talking about, if you're accused, I would be all over those pieces along with some of the other stuff in the background. So thanks, that's what I got, Scott. Yes, one last thing. Did you hear earlier this summer that her body was exhumed or found, I should say? Yes, I saw that online. That's a totally legal thing to do is look online. When a Greeley cops come to you and accuse you of, or want to talk to you about this, it's a pretty prudent thing to go online and check on what's the updates. So. Excellent. All right, we good? Yeah. All right. Move forward. In 1989, we moved, I was married at the time, we moved to Ketchum, Idaho and then Shoshone, Idaho. And in Shoshone, I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I had a rocky marriage and when they were talking about families lived forever, it sounded really good to me. And when I got the ordination and was baptized and all of that, the bishop asked me if there was anything I wanted to confess, if there was anything like bothering me that I needed to get off my chest. And I said, yeah, back when I lived in Colorado, this girl disappeared and I had this weird conversation about it and it bothered me. And so anyway, the bishop then told the stake president which is in Kerry and there was a lieutenant with the Sun Valley Police Department who was also in the Kerry stake thing. I had to clean my glasses there because I just spat my water over my glasses laughing. This one's funny. Yeah, this one I'm gonna focus on something very odd because it's first time I've ever seen it. Go first. Yeah, so in this one, when he gets asked the question, he goes to internal voice as he works out dates. Now I'm gonna give you a great example of that. As you sit thinking about where you were in eight months ago on this day, think back, watch yourself having an internal conversation. That's internal conversation when people's eyes drift down to their left and he has an internal conversation and he does this weird thing. And this is the one I wanna bring up. He looks left, he accesses, then he looks right, has a really weird eyebrow flash. And I wonder what it is, but then he tells me what it is because as he's speaking, he edits. That's what he does when he's editing what he was going to say. Cause you watching me does exactly the same move again. Now, if I'm interrogating him and I'm sitting across the place and I'm asking him questions, now I know when he's making changes to his story. And if you're going to interrogate this guy for law enforcement, give me a call. I'll tell you where to look for it because this is going to be one you can use. This guy has a tell that he can't hide. You can see it coming. I'm gonna leave that because, oh, there was one last thing I will add. He does a the nose touching thing that I talked about earlier for stress when he talks about a rocky marriage. I think this is a good, another indicator for him for stress. So there's two you can have if you're going to interrogate the guy. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, so we see a reconformation here of his baseline for gestural hemisphere which is right and left positive. And it's so powerful that he gestures to his right which is where all of us would gesture towards the future in a timeline. He gestures to the past that direction because that's so hardwired into his hemispheric tendency which I think is a great confirmation video there. And he makes this what I call a mini confession. And just a quick wrap of that is from a police standpoint this mini confession is it stems from our natural need to say that something happened. I did something. We have a need to confess. That's why a lot of it is addictive in churches. And there's even confessionals that are non-religious. So in a police scenario, a guy might be there for a homicide and he might say, well, I did not commit any murder or anything like that, but I have 13 grams of heroin in the ashtray of my car and I've been meaning to tell somebody about it. I just want to let you know. And in like a domestic scenario, a wife is looking through her husband's phone and she sees, hell, who's this girl Nicole you've been texting? Everything's been deleted. And the husband says, well, it's just somebody from work but I have been meaning to tell you I downloaded this app called Tinder a few weeks ago. I thought it was just for networking but I deleted it just a couple of days later. That's a mini confession. And we see some embarrassment here as he's talking about the church and this slight head shake, I think is his baseline to communicate that what he's saying is of little significance and he wants you to agree that this is just not a big deal. This is not a very significant statement. It's not a big deal. Deception score on this is an eight according to Chase Hughes anyway. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so body language wise throughout that there's just too many adapters to even count. I mean, it's just so rampact with them. I just want to leave you at home to kind of go through and go, okay, there's one, there's one, there's one, there's one, there's one. Look, Mark, I want to remind everybody what an adapter is. Well, so it's something that you're gonna do which is gonna, I would say alter the world around you in order to make you feel more comfortable with it because I would suggest psychologically what's happening is you feel like you're not controlling this well but you can control something around you. You can control something around your body with your own hands. That's the way I look at it. I don't know whether that concurs with you guys but that's the way I go for it. Okay, here's what I wanna really pick out on is he's using in his storytelling what we call nested loops which is he's taking you on a journey that just keeps changing location and changing tack and changing tense and changing the characters and it's tiring. It's just tiring to listen to this thing because it doesn't get anywhere. So by the end of it, when he goes Sun Valley Police you don't wanna question it because you're kind of like, I'm exhausted just by going through this long list of things. 1989, married, married, two locations, church, rocks, marriage, families live forever, cough, ordination, baptism, bishop, confession, back where I lived, girl disappeared, bothered anyway, state president, lieutenant, Sun Valley Police. I mean, it's just, it moves from place to place to place to place until you go, all right, I'll just agree to all of that. That's his tack. I will just agree to all of that because I don't wanna get in there and try and undo this. And of course, what you do is an interrogator as an interviewer on this is to go, yeah, I actually do want to unravel some of that. Like, tell me about families live forever and that cough. Like, what does that mean to you? What does it mean? What do you mean by families live forever? Those are some of the places that I want to go on this. It's tiring and quite hilarious to listen to. That's what I got. Excellent. All right, well, here's what I got. Now, I talk about loping. It's something that I coin where if someone's talking, telling a story and everything seems fine. And in this situation, what we're seeing is we're seeing sort of version two of that because we're seeing in loping, but at the same time, we're seeing what I call, I don't know what to call it, but a contrast addiction because his words are going longer and they're lasting longer. Even though these short words are small, it takes longer to get them out. So he's kind of cruising along at that speed saying, speaking like that. So we see in his baseline this contrast addiction. So it's not like the really short choppy words where he's talking like this and a little fast and the words are going quickly. They're just be talking like this where the words are going slowly. They're almost stuck together. They're almost syrupy as they go along. The part where he talks about where he talked to the bishop and he said, and when he asked me, was there anything you wanted to confess? Was there anything that bothered him? And he said, yes, there was a girl that disappeared. He didn't know how to approach that or he knew how, but he was still being careful as he went through this. I think what we're seeing here because the way he started talking about this and at the point where he says, this girl disappeared, it bothered me. And he says, and so anyway, that's bridging. He's leaving so much out. I mean, there's so, you can have a so and that's all that you can leave a lot out there. You can have it and leave a lot out there. And you can have again, you can have another so. But then when he says, anyway, that's the big one. That's anyway, we went and did this as we're going through that. Now with all this bridging happening, I think here's what happened. I think he thought if he confessed to this guy, the bishop, he's not gonna tell anybody. So I think what's happened is the bishop went to whoever the police said, hey, man, I'm talking to this guy. I think he killed this girl. So that's when they said, okay, well, quite, we'll start asking about it because he leaves that part out too. He calls it a weird conversation. Then he goes in and the bishop calls so and so and then he's somehow connected to it all. And all that is just his little pieces of information. He's not saying what happened in that interrogation that he went through. Here go the edit when he's thinking. Yeah, yeah. So I think he told, I think he spilled this guy. And I think this guy said, look, something's up with this guy. I can't tell you everything, but trust me, something's up with this guy and you talk to him. That's what happened. And he's not talking about that. And I'm sure the guys that interviewed this guy or interrogated him are like, that's exactly what happened. I think I got a hundred bucks that says that's exactly what happened. And the whole time he's doing this, we don't see any emotion whatsoever. Nothing, but other than these fake smiles we see because we don't see a Duchain smile at all, we see almost the giggly little thing, but that's not even real either. That's just that uncomfortable blurt out of I'm uncomfortable. And I'm trying to move on from this. You get what I'm talking about. That's what I think happened. I think he told somebody, I think he told that Bishop what happened. The Bishop goes to the cops because they're not supposed to or whatever. And that's what's happened there. All right, we good? In 1989, we moved, I was married at the time. We moved to Ketchum, Idaho, and then Shoshone, Idaho. And in Shoshone, I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I had a rocky marriage and when they're talking about families live forever, it sounded really good to me. And when I got the ordination and was baptized and all of that, the Bishop asked me if there was anything I wanted to confess, if there was anything like bothering me that I needed to get off my chest. And I said, yeah, back when I lived in Colorado, this girl disappeared and I had this weird conversation about it and it bothered me. And so anyway, the Bishop then told the stake president which is in Kerry and there was a lieutenant with the Sun Valley Police Department who was also in the Kerry stake thing. I'm not accusing the cop of doing whatever caused her demise. I'm saying that I think under the circumstances back then that a cop could have been involved in it, okay? They lied a lot to me. Okay, I've talked a lot. All right, Chase, what do you got? We see two instances right away of psychological distancing. Whatever happened to that girl and demise, whatever and demise. We know it's a murder. We already know that his baseline, if he's comfortable, he says the word murder. So there's two there. And there's a single shrug when he says, whatever happened to this girl or whatever happened? And there's some over-politeness here which according to me and a couple of articles, this self-effacing comment when he's saying, I've talked too much is a spike in politeness. So a spike in politeness is different than just someone being polite. I did an interrogation in Los Angeles a few years ago and somebody walked into the interrogation room calling me bro and dude the whole time. And all of a sudden I started digging down and I said, has anybody ever seen you take anything from here or here? And he goes, oh yeah, no sir, no sir, absolutely not sir, not at all. So that's a spike in politeness. So with all of those things added up from this video, his behavioral table deception score is 16. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so a couple of things. I'm gonna give you some homework to go back and look at the rest of the video. This guy anytime he is talking, his eyes are locked. When he breaks, the only time you see Blinkrate really increase on him is when he breaks eye contact. It's really interesting to watch. I mean, some of these will be a 30 second span video with two Blinks. That's amazing. Yeah. That's hypnotic stare is what I've referred to that as. The guy's trying to convince you. You'll see him here. His cadence, now we talk about voice, his cadence shifts in this conversation. He says, I am not accusing the cops of dot, dot, dot, doing dot, dot, dot, whatever led to her demise. That's a lot of editing. That's talking and editing at the same time. There's also in the case when he says accusing here, he breaks eye contact. The only time he does it in the entire video I've seen is he breaks eye contact down. And that's submission typically. Most people don't break eye contact down. They're thinking they move their eyes around and they go from there. The other thing is he's got this okay. When he's asking for approval, when he's wanting to make sure where you're going, okay, okay, and you'll hear it. If you go back through the video, you'll see it. Now all the stuff is starting to come together and then he starts to try to tell his second part of the story. His first part of the story is I'd never heard of this girl before six days after she's dead. That's his defense. Second part of his story is in the cops, we're in on it somehow. He's starting to tell his conspiracy theory story now. And he does a lot of requests for approval. Forehead comes up. You don't see that through the rest of the video. It's when he hits these things he's trying to convince you of, you see the brow rise. That's what I got. Scott? Here we see he's speaking a little louder comparatively to the way he's been talking so far. It's almost like this, when he gets out about the cop and he's talking about how they could have, he could have been involved with the cops could have been involved. He again goes to those short choppy words. He goes from the longer words or they're long and like that they go to the short choppy words. And he sounds a little more, the sound is a little more aggressive toward this. So I think this is a rehearsed answer. Well, when he's said before, because apparently he has a big backstory with his conspiracy theory there. So I think the answer was ready. There's no emotion here again, except for what sounds like anger. But that's going to happen when you're dealing with psychopath. You're going to get a little bit of that. And then I've got three things that I had to check off because of you and Chase, Greg. So, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so let's look at the logic that he gives before that okay to try and see whether we're going to play along with this. I'm not saying a specific cop murdered someone. That's fair, yeah. I am saying a cop could have murdered someone. Well, yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah, a cop could have murdered someone. Yeah, absolutely. So it's very, that is brilliantly structured because it's hard for us to not say, well, yeah, okay, that's a possibility. A cop could have murdered someone, but a specific cop, that would be an absolute allegation of somebody specific. But we can sign up to the second idea, which means, hey, maybe we can sign up to the first idea. He's putting in something very easy for us to logically sign up to there and doing the okay. And actually the interviewer is great. Clearly doesn't give him the okay on that. Goes, I'm not signing up to any of that. Here's what I really love though. If you go in there and you play that final bit after I've talked a lot, what you'll see is one frame where the side of his mouth comes up into a half smile. I'm willing to put $100 for Scott on Wishing Dupers Delight there. I think it's fast enough. And it's just in the right place around, I've talked a lot and that idea of, yeah, and I've talked some really good stuff. I quite enjoyed some of my stuff that I did there. That was pretty smart stuff that I just did. I think we're seeing Dupers Delight. Now, I could be wrong because it's a really tricky one. It's a really tricky one, but at home watching this, why don't you put in the comments what you think? Do you think I'm right? Do you think I'm wrong? You'd be the judge. Man, that's what I got. Excellent. All right, well, that's pretty good. I'm not accusing the cop of doing whatever caused her demise. I'm saying that I think under the circumstances back then that a cop could have been involved in it. Okay? They lied a lot to me. Okay, I've talked a lot. All right, let's move on. Let's move on. I think if I simply state the truth in, I didn't know she existed or disappeared until six days after the fact. Once that's established, okay, I had this short conversation. Now, if I would like to have my name cleared, yeah. They've got all of this stuff. They have really screwed up my life by taking all of that stuff. I don't think they're gonna find anything, but I think they're gonna leave this shadow of disappearance of evil with me. Theoretically, we'd be talking, we'd be fighting over who gets to go first on this one. So who wants to go first? I'll make mine short. This is simple. Never mind the elephant in the room. I don't think they're going to find anything. Hell, I guarantee you they're not finding anything in my house, just that's pretty simple. The next piece is here's his whole story. I didn't know about this girl. If you buy that, okay, then it must be somebody else and it is them trying to hurt me yet again and here's what they're going to do. That's his whole story. He just did his closing argument early in the game because this is actually earlier than some of the other stuff. His body language, I'll leave all that nuanced body language and all of that tweaking and moving alone and then there's cadence. Listen to that cadence, that chop, chop, block, block, chop, chop, block, block, block, navigating a minefield and that's what I got. Right, Chase, what do you got? So I'll just cover two things here. There's a prolonged eye contact again where he's selling this hard. I think he blanks one time as he's talking about this thing. I didn't know she existed or even disappeared. Didn't know. But Mark made a brilliant video of us talking about, I think it was Andrew when we're removing ourselves a certain number of times from something and in his initial part of the statement, he says, I think, well, if I simply state the truth in, and he says the word in, in this statement. So I'm gonna count it as four, there were five total. We'll count it as four. Some of those things will lump them together. And we see some concealed uncertainty here with the gorilla in the room that Greg mentioned. And there's a failure to clearly state that you were accused of something you didn't do. We see this with Bill Clinton. We saw this with Anthony Weiner. We saw this with Colonel Russell Williams, who was a Canadian Air Force Colonel, a failure to clearly state that you're being accused of something. We see it with guilty people all the time. Total deception score 14. Mark, what do you got? That's a big score. That's a big score. Chase, I know that you love it when I bring in the Romans, but at this point, I'm gonna go to Thessalonica because I think it's a great place to go because, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna go to Thessalonica. I'm gonna move to... My wife will get it. He was in my first period of class in the eighth grade. So Thessalonica, the Thessalonicans is a Bible verse. There's a verse in the Bible, and it says abstaining from the appearance of evil, not only the idea of just staying away from evil, but if you're a godly, righteous person, you should stay away from even the appearance of something evil. What he says is they'll leave the shadow of the appearance of evil with him. Well, that's really interesting because in order to create a shadow of evil, you would need somebody to cast light onto that evil and that evil to block that light so you would get the shadow of evil. The metaphor here I would suggest in his mind is there is something evil here that can cast a shadow. I think if he didn't think there was anything evil there, he would go that they are casting the shadow of evil, that they are the evil one, but their light, their investigation has hit something solid and evil and that has cast the shadow. Yeah, it's maybe a bit out there as an interpretation, but these images exist in our head and they live in our head and there may be something truly real about this image that has conjured in his head and created this metaphor around the shadow of the appearance of evil. There, that's what I got. I hope you liked that one, Chase. That was brilliant. You didn't have to make up a word for it, but... That was brilliant. That was brilliant. Wow, that was... See how we should go and last. That's why I try to make you go last on these things. Now, here's me with... You gotta wrap it. Dang it. I gotta go back to the brain on this. And again, we're dealing with that prefrontal cortex. That thing is on fire right now. At the same time, it's fighting to stay alive because it's being shut down by fire or flight. So as it's burning to help him multitask, it's being shut down because he's almost in a panic state at this point. So that's why we're seeing him. That's why we see every bit of body language we're looking at in this which has been covered by everybody else. That's what we're seeing and how he's talking. Even though his words get choppier and smaller and faster as he goes along. Then he stops and they're all choppy and small. So there's no loping in here. He's just fighting his way through it as his brain is taking along and fighting to stay to keep that part of his brain open. So I think that's what we're seeing there which just nails down the deceptive... I want to chase on this deception through the roof, man. What's the highest you can go on your scale, Chase? It's unlimited. So if not a guy contact, I'll give him 100 points. I mean, just the phrase, I did not have sexual relations with that woman scores a 16 by itself. There, okay. I think if I simply state the truth and I didn't know she existed or disappeared until six days after the fact. Once that's established, okay, I had this short conversation. Now, if... You know, I would like to have my name cleared, yeah. They've got all of this stuff. They have really screwed up my life by taking all of that stuff. I don't think they're gonna find anything but I think they're gonna leave this shadow of this appearance of evil with me. So if you like this show, go ahead and subscribe and hit the like button and we're all good. I'll see you guys next time. Did you kill Janelle Matthews? Absolutely not.