 Welcome to another edition of Thinking Things Through, Thinking Critically in Critical Times. I'm your host, Michael Sukoff. Today we have with us James P. Thomas, a writer, citizen activist and former policy analyst from Seattle, Washington. We're going to be discussing peace activism, a look back to look forward. Welcome to the show, Jim. Thank you, Michael, good to be with you. Same here. Now, in 1982 and 83, you participated in a 7,000-mile peace pilgrimage from Seattle, Washington to Bethlehem, Palestine. And by the way, Jim has shared with me a wonderful video and audio presentation on that pilgrimage. It's on YouTube. And we're going to share the link to that with our viewers, listeners on the screen now. Jim, you were involved with the Catholic Church and related organizations on issues of nuclear disarmament and peace. And you served as a policy analyst for the Washington State Catholic Conference. You've also been a research director and consultant on nuclear health and public safety related issues related to the former Hanford Nuclear Production Complex in Richland, Washington. You've also written about and given numerous public presentations on these issues. Is there anything you'd like to add briefly about your background and interests? No. Well, the thing is, a lot of the outreach on the pilgrimage was very much ecumenical. It was predominantly Christian, but not exclusively so. And most of my career was spent on various organizations not allied with the church concerning the Hanford Nuclear Reservation and exposures to radiation, mostly back in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s. All right, thank you for that. So briefly, Jim, what was the Bethlehem Peace Pilgrimage? What was its purpose? And how did you come to be involved in it? Well, the pilgrimage was a walk and a prayer for peace and nuclear disarmament. In 1982, the threat of nuclear war was very, very imminent. You had both the Soviet Union and the United States dramatically increasing their nuclear stockpiles. And the Reagan administration, when they came in, they came in with an attitude to press the Soviet Union. And it made things very tense and threatened to run the risk of an accidental nuclear war, not just an intentional war. Right. And so we just decided that we had to do something. I was captivated by a mime presentation called Four Minutes to Midnight by four Seattle area women. And it didn't just talk about the threat of nuclear weapons. It showed what was at stake in the arms race and how threatening to all life on Earth it was. Yes. And because it was a mime, there were no words. I couldn't respond to it with just my intellect. I had to engage it with my heart. And that was the thing that caused me to focus on nuclear disarmament. And it was going to pilgrimage. Really interesting. So could you say a little bit more about what was the purpose of the pilgrimage and how you actually got involved? Yeah. It was to call people in all sorts of churches and religious organizations to not just leave it up to the politicians or to the think tanks, but to get people of faith involved in saying no to nuclear weapons, no to nuclear war. And so on the pilgrimage, we walked between 15 to 20 miles a day. And in each of the towns, we tried to organize a program in the evening discussion about the threat of nuclear weapons and encourage churches to make a strong statement against nuclear weapons. And so what was your, before you went on the march or the pilgrimage, I'm sorry, what was your thinking about nuclear weapons? And then the second part of my question will be how did your participation in the pilgrimage change the way you thought and felt about nuclear and other public policy issues? But let's just take the first part of that. What was your thinking at the time? Well, before I watched that mime of called Four Minutes to Midnight, I had considered the problem of nuclear weapons similar to other kinds of problems like world hunger or environmental destruction. But after I saw that mime, nuclear weapons became my issue, my focus on it. On the pilgrimage, our eldest member, we ranged in age from 20 to 67. And our eldest member was 67 years old when he started walking. And his name was Father George Zabelka, a Catholic diocesan priest from Flint, Michigan. And during World War II, George was the Catholic chaplain to the men who dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And he walked in the ruins of Nagasaki just less than two months after the bomb was detonated. And it had, because Nagasaki, the dropping point of the bomb was the Catholic cathedral in Nagasaki, it really hit George hard. And it took him decades to come to terms with that. And the pilgrimage was one way that he came to terms. But to hear him talk every day along the way of the human cost of that destruction was very much changed me in realizing that there was no other way except to get rid of nuclear weapons or else they would destroy us. And so it wasn't just a long commitment of 20 months walking from Seattle to Bethlehem, but it became a lifelong mission of mine to work toward abolishing nuclear weapons. Right. So what I'm hearing is it's not only the fact of you're seeing the four minutes to midnight mine presentation, but the actual experience of being on that pilgrimage for 20 months transformed the way you felt and thought about these issues. And also it wasn't just George or the other pilgrims that I walked with, but it was also the people that we met every day and seeing how concerned they were about the threat of nuclear weapons and how they wanted disarmament and to live in peace. Right. The human being, without being politicized, wants to live in peace. That's what one of our core values as human beings is to live in security and peace. And our original thinking was that these weapons would protect us, but as we've acquired thousands of them over the years, where we've weathered by sheer luck a number of close calls of accidents of nuclear weapons and false warnings that almost led to war, we have now realized that they provide more insecurity than peace. Right. And as we move along, especially to the next segment of this show, I really want to keep in mind what has changed from that time until now and also, along with that, how your thinking has continued to evolve and change. And I also want to make the point that, as you know, this show is called Thinking Things Through, Thinking Critically in Critical Times. And one of the things about thinking critically, in my humble opinion, is we cannot separate facts about the world from the values we hold regarding what's going on in the world. And that's not something we've really thematized on this show so far. But what you're sharing is a perfect way to, as an entry point to that discussion if we get to it. OK, so now, well, I have one just kind of funny question maybe. How did you walk from North America to the continent? How did you transport yourselves? Well, we had given some thought to walking across the water. But we couldn't figure out where to pitch our tents at night. Yeah, you didn't know if the Lord would cooperate. But no, we flew from New York over to Ireland and started walking from Ireland on St. Patrick's Day of 1983. But we also walked through Northern Ireland, which was at that time really in the grips still of the troubles. Could you just say briefly what the troubles were for those of our listeners who don't have no idea? The sectarian conflict and violence, hatred between Catholics and Protestants, that's it in a nutshell. It's actually what we understood about it before going in there. But being in there for a week and staying with both Catholic and Protestant families, we could see that the situation is much more complex. And fortunately, with the late 90s Good Friday Accord, there has been a significant reduction in violence and some healing, although the Brexit reality is that there are still tensions between the Catholic and the Protestant communities that need to be rectified and addressed. And Brexit just briefly refers to the UK leaving the European Union. Right, which is largely an economic, but also a political. And it's complicated because to some extent legally split the island from a trade standpoint. Right, right. Yeah. OK, so I'd like to move along now. So I want to ask you about the peace and anti-nuclear protests and movements of the early 80s. What do you think those movements, as well as your involvement with them at that time and even since, have to teach us about our current world situation? I'm thinking most predominantly of the current Russian invasion of and war against Ukraine. And also the dangers of the use of nuclear weapons are back in the headlines, as if nothing's changed. Well, to some extent, nothing has changed. Instead of having tens of thousands of nuclear weapons between the US and Russia, we have thousands of nuclear weapons between the US and Russia. And certainly the recent tension caused by the Russian invasion of Ukraine is very concerning. But it's a good reminder that we have not solved the problem of nuclear weapons. There's still a threat of nuclear war. And we have to find the resolve to make the tough choices to go from the stockpiles of weapons we have now down to zero. It's going to be an incredibly challenging thing. But that's, and the governments are going to drag their feet. And that's where citizens come into play. And we have to do our part to get involved and to hold our leaders accountable for moving from where we're at to where we want to be. And when I got back from Bethlehem in 1984, I was sobered by the realization that there were more nuclear weapons than when we had started walking to Bethlehem. And I found out that some of those nuclear weapons were being manufactured at the Hanford Nuclear Facility just about 120 miles south of my home in Spokane. The plutonium was being, it's the core material for all US nuclear weapons. And I started to investigate. I started to ask questions. Within a few months, I was able to connect with others in the Spokane community who were asking similar kinds of questions. And we started working together, organizing, and posing those questions to government officials and not being satisfied with the stock answers they were used to giving, but really digging down, doing our homework and not going away until we were satisfied that we were being told the truth. Right. This is just a brief interruption in what you're saying is what I want to say is since this show is about thinking things through, thinking critically, what was it about the way that you began to think about these issues that made you realize that what the official government accounts of what was going on were not the truth, if I may say that so boldly. Yeah, so when I came back from Bethlehem in early 1984, there was a movie playing in the theaters. It was Silkwood starring Meryl Streep. Yes. And there was one instance where it mentions a reactor at Hanford. And I was thinking, how did Silkwood, who was an employee at this plutonium plant in Oklahoma, be connected to Hanford near where I was living? And so I went to the library and got a couple of books out about Silkwood. And the Silkwood case is very illuminating because what she found and why she was killed was because she was blowing the whistle. She had found out evidence of lies and deception and fraudulent wells and quality assurance documents. And she was going to the New York Times with that story. And that's why she was killed to silence her. And who killed her? Well, nobody knows. And there are suspects, including the CIA, who had her and the National Security Agency had her under surveillance. The FBI had a wiretap on her. So it gave me an education into cover up in the nuclear field. Growing up, I'd already been schooled in government cover up with the Watergate scandal. I'd been in high school when that was happening. Would you say very briefly what that scandal was about? Watergate was about the US government's cover up of a break in at the Democratic National Headquarters at the Watergate Apartment Complex in DC during the 1972 campaign. OK. Yeah. But then because of the cover up became so extensive, it carried on through the rest of the 72, 73, and into 74 before forcing the resignation of President Nixon just days before he would have been impeached, or found guilty of impeachment. OK. And then getting back to how that's relevant now and what we're talking about. Yes. So it's citizens not being satisfied with government pronouncements, but trying to get at the truth, demanding answers, holding their leaders accountable, and making it so that we have the government and the policies that we want. And I think too often today, our lives are filled with distractions. And a dangerous level of cynicism has creeped in to our national citizenship mindset. And I think we have to get back to, like this show says, thinking for ourselves, that old Reagan adage, trust, yes, but verify. And that was with relationship to arms control agreements between the US and the former Soviet Union. Yes. Yes. And I think we have to also scrutinize not just government, but other social institutions, such as the media. Yeah. And when the media paints that we are in a very divided country and I don't mean to downplay it, there are divisions. But I think the nature of the news media and the communications industry in general amplify or exaggerate those divisions. And we start to forget the values and the principles that make us proud to be Americans. And I think we need to engage with each other and make those conversations happen to the point of reminding ourselves that there is more that unites us than divides us. And we have to really seek to knit together our country or else we're just wide open for China, Russia, and who knows who else to come in and maybe not take us over, but do more to accentuate the divisions. Right. And I want to ask you a question right now that I was going to ask later, and we'll probably get back to it. But I hear what you're saying, what we need to do. The question is, how do we bring people in this country together? It's a great phrase. It's used in the media all the time, pundits and everybody. But from the point of view of the average citizen, what can we do to make that happen? Because I happen to agree with you if we wait for the politicians and the pundits and everybody else, things are not going to change that much. So what do you think? Well, I think for those of us with families, some family members live in red states, some in blue states. And we've been polite in not engaging with them on these kinds of conversations. I think we have to risk being impolite, not in an accusatory fashion, but in a curious fashion to try to really understand their fears and their concerns. And I think once we do, we will see the walls we think are there, the barriers will just kind of disappear and fade into the background. And we'll see and recognize a common purpose. Yeah, I'm with you on that. We're fast running out of time, so I want to go briefly to our last topic. And this has to do with the issue of democracy. Now, in your earlier discussion with me before this show, you mentioned certain ways in which you're involvement with and your research on the nuclear issues and the Hanford and all that led you to think more deeply about the threats posed to what's often referred to in the mainstream media, threats to our democracy. What are your thoughts about this? And what are your concerns about threats to democracy? And what do you mean by democracy right now? Well, democracy is ruled by the people of the people and for the people. And I say our democracy because that's the way it should be. It's imperfect. There is too much in the way of moneyed interests in our politics that has worked the sense of responsibility of elected officials to give equal access to all of their constituents. I think that there needs to be a constitutional amendment that will override Citizens United and give our electoral process back to the people. And just briefly, Citizens United? It's a Supreme Court decision in 2010 that gave the right of corporations to spend money without any limits on influencing elections. Because it was free speech? Yes. Eventually. OK. Yeah, we're fast running out of time. But I guess I want to go back to some things we talked about earlier, talked about the late 70s, early 80s nuclear weapons danger, the buildup and everything. Now, a lot of water under the bridge since then. There's no longer a Soviet Union. It dissipated in 1991. But I'm wondering if, yeah, sorry. But there is a new Cold War. Yes. Russia under Putin, especially after 2014, has become more aggressive. And now, within the last year, China is building up its nuclear arsenals and becoming much more aggressive, especially with regard to its claims on Taiwan. This is all very destabilizing. We need to become as a citizen more active and knowledgeable. Democracy needs a good journalist and access to the media, especially the print media. Yeah. We need to have an informed citizenry. And that requires us to do our homework. So we know what's happening in the world, as well as engaging with other people and insisting on resolving conflicts, resolving injustices, so that we all can live better and in greater freedom. And the A problem I see, which I don't think you would disagree with, everything so complicated, we're facing imminent climate catastrophe. We've got a situation in Eastern Europe and Ukraine that could blow up almost literally at any time. People are just coming out of a pandemic. How do we give hope to people, not only that they can make a difference on these issues? I think, and I'd like to know your closing thoughts, the fact that all these issues in some way or another are connected with one another. What are your final thoughts on that? Well, they are. They are very much connected. With us spending a trillion and a half dollars in the next 30 years on nuclear weapons, that's money that can't be used for addressing climate change. That's money that can't be used on making education more effective. So they're all connected. Absolutely. What we have to do is choose hope. Hope isn't something out there. Hope has to be in here. It's a choice that we have to make. And things have looked black and bleak before. But it's changed because some critical mass of people have chosen hope. And just like Dr. Martin Luther King said, I have a dream. He didn't leave it at that. He worked to make that a reality. And that's what I think each one of us, both as citizens of our country, but also citizens of the world, need to do. Thank you so much, Jim. That's a wonderful note of hope to end on. And so thank you for joining us. And I'd love to have you back again sometime. Sure. Thanks. Thank you very much, Michael. This has been great. You're welcome. Well, that's all the time we have for today. We've been speaking with James P. Thomas. He's a writer, political activist, and former policy analyst in Seattle, Washington. Thanks so much for joining us today again. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.