 we are shown here every other Wednesday one to one thirty and just exploring issues that are relevant to our generation younger people and anyone interested in the future which is everyone. So today I have my best friend here Anna Kamacho and me and her are both co-founders of the Good Food Movement and we're working on making a positive movement locally for people to make good food choices so thank you for being here Anna. I'm stoked to be here thanks for having me again. Yes so the reason kind of to give background um for our conversation today is to really explore the vegan movement because it's something that we're both a part of we're really passionate about and something that can be quite triggering emotional controversial on both you know quote unquote side of of the movement and so we're just exploring this and I think the goal for us is to turn veganism into something that is not scary or exclusive but that is really inclusive and meaningful and shares a positive vision for our collective community you know everyone hopefully so um can you maybe share something on your thoughts on this issue and your personal experience? Yeah um I think I love talking about veganism and the reason why we created the Good Food Movement in the first place was to make a movement that was inclusive and accessible and community oriented because when I first went vegan I was I stayed in a vegan commune so it was like a vegan world separated intentionally from the real world and when I came back out after six months of living there I found myself to be like really militant like judging others uh like that might have ate me or like weren't vegans which was pretty much everyone at the time and um yeah I just saw that my I didn't have that much impact but when I got together with like you and our core group of friends and I just became more joyful in my life and um didn't really force my way on anybody I just let my lifestyle do the talking I felt like that was more of a positive impact um so yeah I just feel like this is an issue that's very pertinent to the movement in of itself making veganism inclusive and accessible and realizing it's at the intersection intersection of many uh social justice yeah and that's something I think most vegans or people who are on this journey go through is they at least for me I'll speak from my experience when I was 19-ish and I made the switch to going vegan it became very upsetting to me that other people weren't making their transition and were continuing to live in this way that was very harmful to our planet and to billions or trillions of animals and to their own health and it was just kind of a mind-blowing experience and it was upsetting it was very emotional and then yeah over time you realize you know like as important and emotional important the issue is and emotional you are you have to learn to be effective and to be effective in your communication and advocacy is to be loving and inclusive and one one of the examples I'd like to share is I was vegetarian I think for seven years before I went vegan and was still eating tons of dairy and eggs and I was working at this little cafe the spot here on King Street pretty well known and they usually have vegan options and there was a guy who came in and he was like oh do you guys have any vegan options here and I was like yeah they're over here and these are what you can get and I was like oh how long have you been vegan and how do you feel and he was so nice he was just like I feel amazing like I love it it's been very easy and yeah it'd be cool if you try it I think it's just like a great decision that I've made in my life and that was really a turning point for me where I started to open myself up I bought a book about it and that's what really made the switch but meeting that human that was kind relatable peaceful non-judgmental I think was critical for me to even consider making the switch to veganism which I had previously had categories as extreme and you know annoying and unbearable and just kind of like something I didn't want to invest in in my decision-making every day and yeah I guess that's a really important message that I wanted to share with our community yeah I think whether or not you know these interactions turn people vegan you're still planting seeds you know so that one interaction stays with you even though that wasn't like the person that made you go vegan it was probably a documentary or a book or something that was a positive representation of that group of people and so when we like call ourselves vegans or we put the vegan bumper sticker on our car we have to remember that it's a responsibility and people I think just as humans we're more drawn to people that are warm that are kind and friendly like I read that you could like walk in a room and like you you immediately know which person like you would ask for directions or something you know so it's this just human instinct that we have to be drawn towards people with that aura so yeah and one of the experiences we had the other day uh it was kind of a farmer's market and we asked this girl who had a bakery set up and she had like her cakes and cookies and we were like oh do you have anything vegan here because we love dessert and she's like no I don't like sometimes I do but not today and she just kind of like started asking us like oh how long have you both been vegan and we're just like telling her and she kind of like had a moment and she was like yeah well you guys look really healthy and fit so I it seems like that's working out for you and we were like yeah it feels really good it was like a very simple interaction but it was pleasant and I just find that that's more effective so much more effective um I conversely to that I used to work at a juice bar and I remember this guy coming up and he was like you have any vegan options and we had a few I was like all our smoothies or you know we have these pre-packaged salads and he was like that's all you know and like he's like never mind and just walked away and for me that was like wow this person's like really rude and like the only thing I know about him not even his name is that he's vegan you know so that's like an association that you make with that kind of just that that energy which is not everybody and it's not always fair you know he might have been having a bad day or whatever but I just feel like if you're gonna call yourself something whether it's like vegan I don't want to say veganism is a religion or Christian that we do have a responsibility um and I know like there's a lot of also just divisiveness in the movement in general and it's important to remember that we're all on the same team you know like who gets the call people vegan or not or are you vegan enough or you know like I'm gonna go on record and say that right now I'm not a perfect vegan but I do my best and I still claim that because that is the that is the state of consciousness that that I identify with so yeah I mean you have an experience where online that that wasn't very pleasant with other vegans do you want to share that yeah and I think that is an experience that kind of triggered this conversation is the facebook you know the infamous facebook argument you know we've all probably been involved in one in our lives at some point and some people are really good at avoiding them which I should probably get better at I posted something on my facebook that was like you know I've been vegan for eight years and I would like the vegan concept to become more inclusive and and I said most vegans I know slip up or cheat in certain situations like they're traveling and there are like none to very little options or they're at an event and there's free food that's already been ordered like they're not buying any animal products and there's nothing else for them to eat and so I kind of shared that because it's representative of most people I know who are vegan and even if it's once or twice a year I don't think we need to hide around that and be afraid and and I kind of ended it like you know let's just be inclusive and I think if we judge each other less on both sides vegans and non-vegans just like less judgment more inclusivity more understanding that we're all trying to do the right thing you know and nobody's perfect like even vegans are you know like a lot of vegans just eat Oreos and junk food and that has this whole host of suffering that it you know puts on our soil and animals and the ocean and and our environment as a whole so we don't need to be like pointing fingers so regardless I put out a pretty positive post um and then these vegans that I know just kind of came out in force and there and it was only a couple of them but and there was you know like dozens of positive comments but the couple people that were the squeaky wheels and got most of my energetic attention were really just like pushing this judgment it was just like so ironic they were just like you're not vegan if you cheat you know like that's ridiculous and you know like I can't believe you don't care about the animals and I was sharing with them like this nuance of like you know well if you don't buy it and that becomes food waste like that's potentially more disrespectful to our food system and the animals and they're like oh but you're eating it and it just became a whole kind of like degenerated argument where it was just really like pointing fingers like you're not good enough I'm more pure you don't belong because you and whoever else you're talking about are not perfect you know and you should be more pure because this is a moral cause and I think most vegans go through a pure phase where they are really strong willed and they refuse to eat that stuff and some situationally that I know like really go through phases of like it was really hard when I was with my family because there was nothing else to eat and I felt the social pressure and whatever those nuances are it's all very real and we need to just accept that that exists and just like understand that you know we're all on the same side whether you're perfectly vegan or you're close or you call yourself plant-based or you're 99% vegetarian like anyone who's on the spectrum of like trying to make a positive difference through their food choice based on the information they have and the circumstance they're in should be welcomed in to a movement that is we all have a shared vision of like peace and non-violence and harmony with nature so it was a very interesting and frustrating experience because I hate wasting energy arguing with people that are essentially we have the same vision and goals and we're fighting over semantics and situations and I find that to be a waste of time so I just come in to like do this you know episode with you so we can just like talk about what this is and why people are always so like upset and triggered and how we get beyond that and be actually more effective yeah absolutely I think we have a shared vision and maybe that um you know whether you're vegan for the animals or the health or moral environmental they're they're all intertwining issues so it is a waste of energy to divide the movement you know because we're stronger together so um and it's a waste of time to also try and be perfect you know if you drive a car or you enjoy fireworks you are potentially you know participating in activities that use animal products so it's like or use plastic bags you know these are these are everyday things that we can't get away from sometimes so I don't think it's about being perfect I think it's about doing the best that we can and you know we definitely are and yeah I think uh I think at the same market that we were at we were walking around and we have some vegan friends that are running a booth and I was eating this super food ball and they're like doesn't that have honey in it I'm like yeah but they use their honey you know from like this local um beekeeper or whatever and I'm just like I just at that point I let things roll off you know it's just like not it is a waste of energy but I can kind of feel that judgment as well so yeah like oh you're not vegan enough right now I like to eat it well we're gonna go to break and then we can go into honey and online and how we address that okay I am Rusty Komori host of Beyond the Lines I have a tv show based on my book which is also called Beyond the Lines and it's about leadership creating a superior culture of excellence and building winning teams we are having a fun drive for Think Tech Hawaii and please please please please help us keep these shows going please go on our website ThinkTechHawaii.com to donate thank you Aloha and welcome my name is Mark Shklav I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's law across the sea program uh every other Monday at one o'clock I am here on deck with various guests talking about different topics of the world and the ocean and international law different areas where we all have seen and want to travel to and learn about please join me for my next law across the sea program Aloha. Hi I'm duration and I'm here today with Anna Kamacho for the show Finding Our Future on Think Tech Hawaii every other Wednesday one to one thirty p.m. and today we are talking about veganism and something we're super passionate about something that can be very triggering and emotional for both vegans and non-vegans and we're exploring this idea of transitioning veganism from something that becomes scary and judgmental and purist to something that's more inclusive and loving and understanding which I think are really pivotal values of the intent of the vegan movement in the first place and starting to include humans in the non-judgment and non-violence that the definition of veganism espouses so I'm here with Anna thank you Anna for being here so we were just talking about honey which I think is a really funny and interesting part of veganism because I think it's like 50-50 like half about half the vegans I know are like no honey and it's not a big deal it's just like they don't participate and they use agave and get post syrup and the other half they're very like lax about it and um at least for me like I've talked to a lot of beef farmers who really are like contributing to regenerative ag and the health of pollinators because bees in a lot of ecosystems do need that support because their ecosystems are collapsing in many ways and so they're these like regenerative beef farmers and when it's like raw local organic and I know my beekeeper and I know they're not exploitative I don't feel moral guilt from consuming that honey I don't judge people on either side especially if you don't know anything about the honey industry but yeah it's just funny how it becomes like well I'm a vegan that doesn't eat honey and then there's vegans who are like well I'm a vegan that does eat honey and it's just like you know I'm just like let's just accept everyone if you want to teach people about the honey industry like go for it but like we don't need to like give each other weird vibes and judge each other as we're working out all the nuances and various issues that veganism includes yeah I think if it weren't for beekeepers um bees would probably be extinct at this point yeah they're having a and then if bees go extinct then then we're in fall because I say it's because of them that we have most of our food so I'm all for local beekeepers I'm all for supporting them so they can do what they do because you know if you get stuck in a little bubble where it's like oh it's the animals and because honey is an animal product therefore I just reject it it's like an opportunity to learn more about the industry which I'm not an expert on so I won't speak but I have beekeeper friends that have told me that they helped the bees grow in these colonies get strong enough so these predator beetles can't come in their hives and then they put them back out in the wild and for that they are gifted with honey and honeycombs and by selling it um they get to continue what they're doing so it's uh you know there are multiple facets to veganism and there are multiple you know faces um of helping animals whether or not you cut out all animal products and byproducts I think it's important to honor and respect and extend that compassion out not just for animals but humans which are animals but as well so we're all in the same boat for sure yeah and the definition of veganism kind of is laid out as a somebody who is vegan abstains from consuming or purchasing or using animal products like leather and you know anything that's tested or kills animals and you know I think there's a opportunity here to redefine and adjust kind of that definition because we have found a lot of nuance in the vegan movement and vegan consciousness you know and like honey is one example where you know you can actually rebuild ecosystems for bees and help their populations and not be extractive um and of course mass produced honey and mass produced anything even apples are going to be extremely harmful to the plants and soil and the animals um and so we I just think you know it should be adjusted to talk about non-violence you know and if something is non-violent and regenerative from a systems level you know I think that that would qualify as vegan and there's an opportunity here for us to have a really cool conversation about um what it means to be a conscious eater and I think with animals it's a little bit more black and white it's like you kill an animal and you don't have to you know and we can really protect a lot of animals from being exploited commodified bred and essentially stripped of their freedom as a as an animal um and really address that issue um and so I think with that it's kind of like black and white but then with other things that's like nuance like I had an ex-boyfriend who had a pet chicken her name was Domi and um she was not caged and she was free to move about they've no neighborhood and she always came back and he fed her organic oats and she got to an age where she was laying eggs and you know they're not fertilized she's just like giving them their extra and she's not in a cage she's not exploited at all she's free to leave and never come back and I did try the egg and I didn't love it because I haven't had eggs in a long time but it didn't feel like a trans question to me like I didn't feel like I no longer was vegan because there's nuance and I think it's just important for people to realize and even if you just buy something and it's just like an egregious act of non-veganism you don't get kicked out of the club forever and have to start over the next day like I've only been vegan for one day even though before that I was vegan for 20 years like you're allowed to make a mistake you know and I just think it's important to be forgiving and just say like that we're we're still in the same movement we're still allies and like let's do this together yeah absolutely I think that you I mean you've been a really good point life is life looks very different for each of us and we all have our own stories and contacts and you know I mean there's an issue of accessibility and you know food deserts too so who who am I to say you know from this privileged standpoint that like someone's not vegan enough if they're doing their best um you know like in a perfect world we could have everybody vegan um but that would look like you know it would look like a homogenous world and that's boring and that would um you know it would discount and silence a lot of voices of like color and a lot of like women's voices too who like most of the movement is made up of women so I think that it's important to look through all of these lenses and you know if you really want to know why somebody's doing something um then ask questions like people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care you know and survey like it's I think it's very privileged privilege illiterate to call someone not vegan enough if you don't know their story and you don't know what they're they've been through um and yeah I think it's it's just really funny because it is a movement around that is inherently about compassion and inclusivity and love above all and understanding um that some some of the most judgmental people I've met are are vegans and not vegans you know that hate vegans but um yeah and but we're all just human under the same roof you know and struggling and imperfect in one way or another and um for me it's always been like about kind of like the relevance to how a lot of people are Christian you know or Catholic and there are certain rules within that that they may break and it's very occasional could be like you know once or twice in their whole life and it's not like they have to leave Christianity and like not identify as a Christian anymore because god is forgiving and so should vegans I think because we are all human and we um I think it benefits all of us spiritually emotionally and as a movement to open our arms to more people and create safe spaces for confessing you know it was just like funny that I was a confessing to something that I do like once or twice a year like take a free cookie at a conference and it just spiraled into like a two hour argument about why that was or wasn't the worst thing ever to do um and if I was or wasn't it yeah and like it's I always take up for myself and I want to listen to other people and it just I think it it's exciting for me to um visualize veganism as uh consciousness and something that so many people are a part of that we can participate in together and we can um really visualize a world without factory farming and without a grudges animal cruelty um and not you know spend all this time fighting with each other because we're all works in progress and um you know I'm working on being less judgmental every day as a vegan and yeah I wish kind of we all would do the same so that more people feel excited to be a part of this you know this movement that we're a part of absolutely compassion and there's a really good um documentary that came out a prayer for compassion you know there's uh it's about just like the the spirituality of it all and how of multiple in uh religions intersect on this um one um concept of compassion whether it's like Jesus and Muhammad or you know the Hindu um I think that it's really good for viewers to watch if they are like more religious even if you're not um so yeah I think that's a good action step after this if you're curious yeah we also have a couple of events coming up yeah share that with your all the curious yeah for sure we this sunday um we have an eat shop which is a cooking workshop and a dinner experience at vegan hills if you follow us on instagram or facebook at good movement you can find the link to the tickets and do you want to share the chocolate party yeah so we've had a chocolate party idea we're gonna do it on valentine's day um chocolate was something I didn't think I could eat as a vegan so valentine's day seven to ten p.m at bye bye collective lots of desserts and goodies there so please come follow us at good movement to learn more okay that's our show thank you so much and I was really important and thank you I love you it was so fun