 Great. Okay. Good evening, Ladies and Gentlemen, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce our next speaker. John Brazel has an MSc and a PhD. He is retired. He's now the independent researcher, but he was previously a clinical biochemist, a medical science researcher, a medical laboratory scientist, a laboratory information systems manager, and a public health information systems manager. So he comes from a very impressive scientific background. And John is also one of the administrators on the L-CTS 4.0.6 DNA project. And he's going to talk to us about that today and also a particular branch of that project, which he describes as a tumbleweed branch of the Y DNA tree. So can you please give a warm welcome for John Brazel? Good afternoon. Not just the listening speaker. Can you remember how many of you know what a tumbleweed is? All right. Some of you do. There was doubts expressed that maybe younger people might know. So what you need to keep in your mind is the sound of a spaghetti Western movie or a rye food or crying against the background here. Why did I use the image of a tumbleweed? Well, it's a plant that breaks off from its stem and it disperses its seed as it's blown by the wind. And it's a really good example for this particular branch of the Y DNA tree that I'm going to describe because this is a branch that's found itself up front here, particularly in the American Southwest. And it's an invader from Eurasia, like the R1Bs. The outline of the presentation, hold on a second. I forgot to turn, I forgot to advance the slides, apologies. OK, so the presentation is organized into these different sections. I'm going to just briefly talk about DNA and tests for different aspects of genealogy. Then talk about a Y chromosome evolution and survival, the technologies and analysis associated with them and then get into the Y chromosome tree and the branches. And more specifically, the branches that I'm talking about are the CTS4466 branch and the sub-branch of that, which is known as RA151. And I'm going to be talking about seromains of the most distanced known ancestor and the locations that they were associated with. So those are not live people now. So I hope there's no data protection issues associated with those. I'm going to talk about some of the challenges and tools that can be used to investigate these names and locations and the relationships between them. And then I have a number of questions that I'm hoping to answer over the next few years. And then, of course, last but not least, the credits for some of my co-workers in this particular area. OK, DNA, this is supposed this is just a very brief catch up. We're talking about the code of life made up of paired strands of nucleotides and bases for different bases, adenosine, cytosine, guanine and thymine. And they pair, well, complementary on the opposite strands of the paired with thymine and cytosine paired with guanine. And these sequences are informed, are characteristics. OK, I'm going to be talking about why chromosome DNA and why chromosome DNA tests today. Clearly, there have been other talks over the past few days on different aspects of DNA, mitochondrial DNA, where people are investigating their maternal heritage and maternal matches and autosomal DNA, where people are looking at the autosomes. OK, so as I say, I'll be talking about why chromosome DNA. I won't be talking about mitochondrial DNA and I won't be talking about, well, I won't be talking very much about autosomal DNA, which is the analysis of the 22 non-sex chromosomes. I will mention that just briefly at one point, but that's just in terms of making connections. The why chromosome is passed on from fathers to their sons largely unchanged through the generation. Some changes do occur and these changes can be used to trace paternal ancestry. One of the things I think that we've got to remember when we're doing all of this is that all the individuals who identified in this study and all the other why chromosome tests that we're talking about on living people, as opposed to ancient DNA, these are the latest representatives of why chromosome lineages that have mutated and survived up to the present time. During the presentation yesterday about the O'Neill project, why chromosome project, they were talking about not having changes identified over thousands of years. That presumably meant that the changes were occurring, but all of those side branch why changes, those people didn't survive up until the present day. Those branches have died out. And there's many reasons why branches can die out. First is obviously war, because our history is full of people fighting and killing each other. Equally, the Great Famine in 1845 wasn't the first famine, it won't be the last famine. Starvation has regularly affected people on this island down the millennia. Fever is another one. Obviously, 1918, we had the Spanish flu back in previous times. There were various other epidemics and what have you, which killed people off and resulted in why lines being lost. An interesting study recently by David Reik on an investigation in Spain showed that all the why chromosomes there that were associated with the Neolithic period disappeared. Many of them may have been killed or starved, but they certainly didn't have the option to continue their why chromosome line, because the new guys got all the attention from the girls. And the other one is as well that we've seen in some families is that families' daughters are out, there are no sons. That's the end of that particular branch of why chromosome line. So, we've been talking all through these past few days about DNA analysis and evolving technologies, increasingly powerful and reducing costs. Initial technologies focused on these things called short tandem repeats, which are abbreviated to STRs. And there are regions of DNA that are made up of multiple copies of short repeating sequences, saved as TATT for nucleotide bases there. And they can repeat a variable number of times depending on the individual. So, you can have, say, a particular short tandem repeat sequence where you might have, for example, 12 copies in a given individual. But this can mutate, then it could go to 13, it could go to 11. It can actually back mutate as well and go back to 12. So, there are people who are very good at analyzing these STR changes and can identify from these tests from 37 STR markers, more powerfully with 67 or 111 STR markers. They can determine what particular branch of the haplotype tree you sit in, and the big Y tree. And like, in fact, it was one of these STR tests that enabled Nigel McCarthy of the CTS4466 plus project to identify that my Y chromosome originally was a member of the CTS4466 group. Whoops. We'll just press it again. There you go. It's the, I'm looking for two. Oh, that's the wrong one. Apologies. There you go. Apologies. Technology, right? Technology advances and people don't always. Okay. So, as I say, the advances in technology have continued and reduced costs now allow the identification of single DNA nucleotides, those single bases. And the single change in those is known as the single nucleotide polymorphism. Now, if you know what the candidate SNP, which one you're actually aiming at, you can find out whether or not an individual is positive or negative for that particular SNP for as little as 16 euro. But clearly, you know, a negative result isn't going to tell you where they are, but if it's a positive result, you've got that person fairly firmly in your Y DNA tree. The discovery of new SNPs that allow the identification of new branches requires more complete analysis of DNA. And that is still sort of relatively expensive. I know at the FT DNA stand at the moment, you can get a discount on the big Y test at this particular, and then there are periodic sales as well, but it's sort of over 500 euro. You really want to have a pretty good reason for going for it. Okay. This is Mike Walsh's R1B L21 descendant tree, and I'm not going to go through all the branches of it. The arrow at the bottom there points out the CTS4466 branch that I'm going to be talking about from here on in the presentation. So just to give you an idea of what we're talking about, and as been said several times during presentations over the past few days, the times on all of these changes there's a degree of wobble associated with them. So we're talking about the L21 SNP mutation occurring four and a half thousand years ago. DF13 is downstream of that. It's just shortly afterwards. And then if you come down then to the CTS4466 mutation, you'll find that that is occurred in and around 200 BC. So just to set the sort of the environment that you find these particular changes, you're talking about going from the Irish Bronze Age to two and a half thousand BC to the end of the Irish Iron Age at 400, 500 AD. Okay, so this CTS4466 was initially identified in 2006 from short tandem repeat testing. It's the defining, it's associated with the south of Ireland, the province of Munster. There is a particular SNP mutation now, the CTS4466 that was identified in 2012, which is associated with the Irish Model Type II. So as I say, associated with the south of Ireland and the province of Munster. Actually, I'll just go back for a second there and just say that CTS4466 there's been some speculation as to where this mutation may have occurred, whether it did actually occur in the south of Ireland or whether it occurred in southwest Britain or in Wales. So if we're talking about sub-branches of a CTS4466, you've got the A451, A541 branch which represents 46% of the participants and then of that particular branch you have S1121 which represents 55% of the A541 branch. This is split then into a number of different groups. The L270 group is associated with the O'Sullivan's. There's the Z16251 group and sub-branches of that that are associated with the Donahouse, Moriarty's and O'Mahani's. And then you have a variety of names below that O'Keefe, Sheen, Dennehy, O'da Sullivan's, Tumi, Quirk, Donoghan and Kelleher. And what you've got across all of these branches are McCarthy's turning up in all the various plans. And don't ask me to explain that to Elizabeth or Donahue here or not to McCarthy you might explain that better than I could. I'm going to be concentrating on the A151 branch now. As I said, the A541 branch represents the bulk of the CTS4466. You've got the Donovan Regum branch, the Z21065 that represents 35% of A541. And so A151 represents much of the remainder. You're talking about the last 10%. So they're definitely a small branch. Well, even though they're a small branch I think they're a very interesting branch. We have 43 men who have identified as positive for this market and have had an FTDNA big Y test which have identified further downstream snips from RA151. When this particular mutation occurred you're talking perhaps 2200 AD is also their estimate for the upstream mutations as well. So sometime in the first half of the first millennium would seem to be a reasonable estimate. It will be great when more people get tested and there's more analysis of this that we can tighten these dates because if we can tighten these dates we can work out what the more likely historical scenarios are associated with the dispersal dislocation of populations. So if we look at how this branch is we can see that we have the A151 branch here coming down from CTS4466 and A541 comes down to A151 and then you can see that this branch is into a series of defining snips. There. And if you look at the different branches you can see that there are roughly five different branches or segments. Hold on a second, I'm trying to do this. We've got this arm here One, two, three, four, five. There's one guy in the sixth column over there. One of the things to note about this particular branch of the YDNA tree is it obviously occurred long before the adoption of hereditary surnames. One of the things to note is the variety in the names of the most known ancestor. And so you will see here that there are names that might be Welsh or Scottish, Scandinavian, English, Irish, Scottish again perhaps and the McCarthy. McCarthy's turn off everywhere. But anyway. This particular branch here now are noticeable because there are a lot of kit men with this particular surname or variations, slight variations in the spelling of it but they're all on this particular arm here. There are Macaulay's from different parts of the world who exist or are in totally different parts of the tree. These are Macaulay's from the island of Lewis and Harris from the northwest of Scotland from the outer Hebrides. This particular branch here comes down here and comes down through a snip called A714 and then you can see that that splits into a 715 positive branch. There's a number of individuals identified here but you'll see the names here are Shinnick, Fox, Thrasher, Davidson and Brazel and probably Hill as well. We have two individuals called Hill at the moment who are testing big Y and are almost certainly on this arm somewhere. The question is, are the 715 positive or not? I'm delighted. This is an interesting point, just a side point really that it shows the evolution of hereditary surnames. For those of you who speak Irish you'll know that Shinnick is from the Irish for Fox so this name has been anglicised directly from the Irish whereas Fox has been translated from the Irish. Oops, sorry, press the wrong button again. So that's there. The other one here, this is another case of a name change and this was a story that was told to me by the late Rick Davidson was that he had a block in his genealogy and he couldn't get back beyond the middle 1800s and then he found out through genetic genealogy that genetically he was a Thrasher which is an English occupational name and doing further research he discovered that he had an ancestor who changed his name during the American Civil War and Rick said that that was his own witness protection programme he'd obviously done something that he didn't want to be accountable for. This particular branch here, Simmons and Richie perhaps those are surnames that are Scottish-ish maybe it's hard to know and then we have a branch over here which is very clearly associated with Ireland to this day and to the south west of Ireland particularly and then we have this guy over on the far side again a Scandinavian name oops sorry, apologies so you can see that we have a whole range of names from across Britain and Ireland and over into Scandinavia and I suppose one of the questions is can we identify the historical circumstances that might have caused that particular distribution so what I have here is I have mapped the locations of the most unknown ancestors here in Ireland and the colours on the arrows are really just those that are A151 and I've not gone down the particular branches or those that are 714 positive, 715 negative and then the later branch here 714 positive, 715 positive so these are later SNP mutations and you'll see that we have individuals here the 151s, they're all from associated with the south of Ireland except for this guy up here up here who is in the north but we come back to him and you'll potentially see where he's coming from but you have them, they're associated with Munster and South Lentster so you can see there's two blue dots there two yellow dots there two yellow dots there and then the red dots there so this sort of follows on from the fact that the CTS4466 is associated with the south of Ireland obviously some of them have wandered over into South Lentster okay, if we look then at as I was saying the Macaulay's they have found themselves up on Lewis and Skye and on the other islands there and on the mainland of northwest Scotland you have our friend here in the north of Ireland in Antrim these are the locations of their most distant known ancestors and actually the times associated with them so many of them are in the 1600s or beforehand and we have this guy here in Cumbria but if we look then beyond and go further north we can see this sort of north easterly drift going along so we have somebody with their most distant known ancestor in Denmark and then three guys with their most distant known ancestor in Norway and I suppose one of the things that we're wondering about is you know what circumstances might have encouraged these guys to sort of follow the route that they've taken and the one that occurs to most people most quickly is obviously these are a south of Ireland wide DNA haplotype and they've gone up to the northwest of Scotland and potentially on to Scandinavia so you think Vikings but again it comes down to when this mutation occurred and as we get more information they could potentially have been particularly the guys in the northwest of Scotland they could have gone there as slaves they could have gone as slaves but they could have gone as saints or scholars or whatever it depends when in time we can pinpoint these migrations too because if you're talking about early Christianity you would have had Irish monks going from Ireland they are recorded as well like St Brendan going from the southwest of Ireland to the Orkneys and obviously ultimately to Iceland and beyond perhaps so that's a big question what was the force that actually brought them up there so we have a number of individuals now that we have tested in North America and I'm concentrating primarily here on the downstream rinse four positive rinse seven on five positive rinse so we have them here on the east coast of the US and going over towards the Midwest and this is an interesting story this is a guy in Australia and he is trying to identify his biological antecedents well his great great great grandmother was in what's called a factory it would have been a work house the paramount factory in New South Wales and she she escaped from the factory and she was recovered and brought back but she had got pregnant in the meantime and this guy is trying to identify who his biological ancestor might be because the child was taken away from the girl and was forcibly adopted so he's trying to look at transportation records now and look at some of the names that have been identified associated with this haplotype to see if he can find them on a a ship list or a transportation list and he hasn't been able to do so so far okay so we mentioned that hereditary surnames were adopted in Ireland from about 1000 AD forward they were definitely significantly later in Scandinavia they've been social and cultural disruption in Ireland during the 16th and 17th centuries and a lot earlier and this may have contributed to some of the changed surnames and this I think is something that I'm just wondering about about some of the people who have gone to America from Ireland religious and cultural pressures in North American colonies may have resulted in changes in religion and in surnames as well as a loss of awareness or suppression of Irish origins we've discussed some of these issues already today privacy concerns obviously and data protection but again this is making some of the work that I've been trying to do in identifying surnames are haplotypes and the like it can be a little bit of a difficulty a concern to a greater or lesser degree in would-be recruities as to whether or not the extent to which their information is going to be protected or shared there's obviously again the big one as well is the fear of unanticipated results this is true for any genealogy but it can be a surprise if a genetic result comes back very different from what people might have expected there's the cost or the perceived cost and I think we've also talked about it's definitely a challenge to getting people to sign up is there a lack of scientific or genealogical knowledge to interpret the results that you get so you do actually have to bring people through on that and some people are more open to it than others okay so in terms of the tools to use I think we've talked about some of them already family history is the critical one you start off with genealogy talk to your oldest relations talk to there's always going to be a genealogy somewhere in the family talk to them get as much information as you can as possible the SDR panel testing is still useful but it has been supplanted to a certain degree by the SNP panel testing which is where you can get the whole set of SNPs which can actually identify where in the in the white chromosome tree you actually sit and the like and if you've got a very good reason to suspect that the testee is likely to be positive for a single SNP test either a shared surname or family history that indicates you can get a positive result for as I said as little as 16 euro if you want to identify new markers or to be able to discover more and more branches you have to go and spend a bit more money and do a big why and we've already talked about this is where you can actually identify as we're approaching the genealogical time frame what is happening now is the single point mutations the single nucleotide polymorphisms are coming up to the genealogical time scale and they're coming within the range of connections that you can make through autosomal DNA testing will take you back 5 to 7 generations so you're talking 200, 250 years so we're talking about SNP test now that can be identified as occurring within that particular time period and I've had an example of that and we've talked about why search where you could actually look at a sort of a shared database where you could compare results from different individuals one of the problems at the moment and it's alleviated to a certain extent by a number of the companies now that allow you to upload results from one company to another company but if people have tested with different companies it can be difficult sometimes to compare results so I've got ahead of my slides here so I shall rattle through these ones now since I've done that okay so these are questions as yet unanswered where did the original A151s live well certainly I think they lived in Munster like there are four bears there are A541 four bears did they live in the west center or east of Munster and what was their relationship to various other kindred groups their cousins if you will recorded in that locale in the mid to late 1st millennium some of these Sulevans and O'Donohues and McCarthy's and what caused them then to be dispersed and displaced across Britain and as far as Scandinavia so I mean a lot of the some of the talks that have been presented over the last few days have been the main DNA project and you've been talking about people who have been dispersed from Ireland you know since the famine but we're clearly talking about people who were dispersed a thousand years before that and the reasons for that are probably likely to be similar to the same reasons it's war famine starvation this is a particular question this is a map taken from a publication in the journal the Cork Historical and Archaeological Society and it was written by Lima Bukala and he was identifying a place called Kennel Brassel and he talking to various people that are different opinions on all of this and the like and I know that I'm no expert in the various kindred groups in this particular part of Ireland or anywhere at this particular time and the like but one of the things to actually note is that the the cynics are in there's one with his most distant known ancestor in a place called Balicatu which is near Clawing this is the sort of the barony of Immacili and like and so he's still there so maybe his ancestors managed to bring down through the millennia or at least over the last 1500 years and Bukala said at that particular time there were no brassels left in East Cork and there's one particular point here that might be relevant to the Iglesians possibly and the like who may or may not be related to his north Tupiri branch I don't think so though okay this is another piece of speculation I've been talking about sort of the individuals in the US and I've been trying to work out how they might have got there this really came from conversations that I had with the late Rick Davidson because he had identified he lived in at that he lived in North Carolina but he had traced his most distant known ancestor to a place called Gwinnett County which is near Atlanta in Georgia and this was actually from a war of independence pension claim and he was he was wondering how his thrasher ancestor who was born in 1755 had a wide DNA type that was shared by my ancestors over in North Oxford in Clehaman back in the 1750s we were wondering about sort of roots as to how this traffic might have happened and one of the interesting things that we've discovered since is that there are 7.4 or 7.5 positive thrasels in Newfoundland and this was Rick's as well in North Carolina and we're just wondering because the this is a little bit of history the Newfoundland colony and Maryland colonies were founded by Catholic Calvert George Calvert and his son Cecil who were the first and second Lords Baltimore but they lived in Ireland in in Clehaman in North Oxford where we know thrasels were living in the mid 1600s and so the idea is does this actually represent a migration route associated with the Calvert as they went from from Wexford they did they brought people with them from from Dorses and Devon as well but they initially went to Ferryland himself there he realized it was much colder than he'd been told by his agent and he he went back to King James the first and he said give me a give me a charter for somewhere warmer please and so he went down to Maryland but then he had a lot of difficulty with the neighbors particularly in Pennsylvania so eventually the Calverts changed their religion they managed to hang on to their name but the force Lord Calvert the colony so that's that's I'm trying to sort of identify people that I can sort of will back up this particular and this is where the two hill individuals are tested are going to be very interesting because hills were noticeable in the list of set the initial settlers in the Avalon colony in Ferryland but also in the initial settlements of Maryland as well so it'd be very interesting to see where they sit the other the other question I'm trying hoping to ask answer is whether or not the ancestors to this guy Jesse Wayne Razzle now he did or he didn't kill Pat Garrett we don't know it seems as though he might have been the fall guy in question but I'd said at the beginning of the meeting that I was going to come back to Las Cruces in New Mexico where the original picture of the tumbleways were from this is where Jesse Wayne Razzle lived and I'm going to try to answer the question was he where his ancestors originally from Kenti Wexford and this is an undated picture of the gentleman in question and the like and his teddy bear don't ask me I don't know he doesn't look like a killer to me so my thanks are due to the project administrator of the R1B CTS 4466 plus project Elizabeth O'Donohue Ross my co admins on this particular project Nigel McCarthy and James Kane Gerry O'Connell Tim Carman Kathleen Carman are are on the what's it it's another version it's another CTS 4466 project and then we have obviously I've taken data from the big tree of Alex Williamson and the diagram from Mike Walsh and one thing I think I would like particularly like to do is to thank all the individuals who have tested and shared their results some of them since GDPR have had to be persuaded to reshare their results I think that's what's often overlooked is that particularly in why chromosome analysis and the like it's that the individuals have tested but they've only tested that they be hest of their genealogist sisters and female cousins and I'd like to dedicate this presentation to the late Rick Davidson who is the first A714 identified as recently as in 2014 thank you very much thank you John there's a great amount of work that you've done there and of course it's in collaboration with a lot of other people who've done the work before you as well so and I think this is the way that we are working now as administrators that deal with haplogroup projects or sub-haplogroup projects that and it's also reason why it is so important for certain group administrators to actually work very closely with the haplogroup project administrators because they've got a much bigger oversight of the neighbors around your genetic neighbors of your surname so great work there John questions for John about the presentation or any questions in general about SNP analysis how to build a SNP into STO based tree now we have a question back here I'll just move down with the microphone is there any evidence or have you considered the possibility of a second the mutation arising in a second place obviously each of these mutations are from one base to a second base, a different base the thing is that these are the SNP changes that are at the end of a series of SNP changes so that for example when I'm talking about a 715 positive that particular nuclear change could occur at any time but it's also associated with the a151 change which is associated with the a451 so it's actually a cascade of SNP changes that define that particular branch okay any other questions we have one here from Duane O'Neill thanks for the presentation can you confirm that under the CTS 4466 group is that associated with the unpronounceable name the O'Neill yes and then in the O'Neill project we have a subgroup okay which is the Rathland set under that has that been your experience or have you come across that in your work well I defer here to my project administrators in the back there the O'Sullivans and the kings of Kassel and the O'Neill they were obviously the guys who had their hands on the lever of power I suspect their a151 cousins were pushed out to the side somewhat you know they weren't close enough to the throne Elizabeth would you care to comment on that there's a wide range of times of as John pointed out for instance the McCarthy's are a very particular example of you find their branches all over the CTS 4466 tree what that basically means is that they aren't genetically related to the chieftain line of the McCarthy's which is supposedly only one man at one time but they chose the name because of the territory they lived in the affiliations they had or whatever else it's almost impossible to know because that goes back so far with the O'Neill's in particular I have been in touch with Ginger and there is several different O'Neill sections again there's one section that could perhaps be more easily identified with the O'Neill lineage and the annals there is supposed to be an O'Neill that is part of the O'Neill but then there's another O'Neill who is part of the A151 group which is basically although they are all CTS 4466 that O'Neill is almost surely not related to the O'Neill's that you're talking about that are more likely to belong to the O'Neill lineage or at least this is what I surmised from my experience through the CTS 4466 the Munster Irish project and that sort of thing but when you're going back that far there's basically it's very difficult to ever know for sure but all we can do is survive with probabilities and hopefully get it right Thanks Elizabeth Other questions here from John O'Brien and from Jared Corkham John I'm going to come to you first When you look back at the origins of this and the dating that you've been able to do I noticed that you you know the father of the one you analysed which I guess is all the way back up to the CTS 4466 when you go to the European mainland or the British Isles in Scotland is there a dominance of that as the father of that and can you really say whether 715 was that SNP was I think he said 200 AD was that an Irish No no 200 AD might be the 4466 one 715 is much more likely to be within the historical period I guess is probably the first half of the second millennium When you go upstream from where you're finding your grouping though where are they predominantly found in Europe Lewis and Harris I think there are the O'Connell's in South West Ireland there are a group of Brafels in East Limerick but I am very anxious to recruit a testee from because if they were 714 positive that would mean that they would be a sort of a Westminster group as opposed to the Central and East Munster representatives that I have other than the O'Connell's the O'Connell's are I know from talking to a colleague Jerry O'Connell there that he's been investigating different branches of his O'Connell line and some of them had to cross the Shannon from Kerry to Clare in the mid 1600's because of the social and cultural pressures of the time one Oliver Cromwell and some of them got back into Kerry again so they went across the river back again some of them managed to hang in all the while so it's actually trying to relate the particular branches to historical events and the more people that test the tighter we can get for the mutation of specific snips and we can actually offer them up against the history John Lister any chance of identifying the great Donald Cahn O'Solvenberg it's ascended to the current holder and they change religion I think it's Potsman now they're residing in London that would be a great project I'd be very interested in that secondly from Lars talk on Friday we found that if I remember correctly the F13 was the majority in Ireland Bronze Age and by the Iron Age it was very dominant so you could probably expect that CTS port 466 was already located here and didn't come in from somewhere else possibly and then finally any comments on Brassel Brack which they've been identified as DF-45 I think I don't know I'll answer your first question the second question I suppose one of the things that this is a sort of a parallel study to this is that I've been trying to find the haplotype of different Brassel lines across Ireland and then that will potentially inform what results I might get from elsewhere part of the difficulty is the genetic name in Ireland it's also a name that's found quite extensively in Britain and the extent to which British Brassels might have an Irish origin it's hard to know but we have to try and test those talking about Lars presentation is that as far as I know that the sort of the Brassels and one with most distant known ancestor in West Clare they appear to have a neolithic white haplotype so they didn't all get white some of them are there but as Lara had said as well they're hanging on in the far west you mentioned a few times John about firming up the dating of these various branching points I see that's going to happen in the future because we have the big Y500 now do you think it's going to be mainly a snippet based algorithm that we'd be using or is it going to involve STO's including 500 STO's or will it involve extensive genealogies or a combination of all three I think the the big Y, the NGS testing is going to remain the gold standard for some time to come because it can obviously identify a variety of shared and unshared variants and the like now I think there's a little bit more science into sort of trying to determine the clocks from the the unshared variants and the number of those that might have been identified I think it was spoken during an earlier presentation that these snippet changes occur maybe every 100 or 144 years and the like and if you can find sort of the the big points that I'm talking about when we're talking about A451 or CTS4466 or A151 coming down to 714 and 715 these are just highlighted snips and they're like but there are other snips that have been identified between and then as you come forward to historic times talking about snips that have not yet been identified so I think that does underscore the reason for continued big Y or NGS testing I think that's it we need more people doing the big Y 500 don't we? Great, okay well this is a fantastic project and great work John, thank you to you and the entire team ladies and gentlemen John Bresel