 Good day, everyone. And welcome. Thank you all for joining us virtually here at the National Archives YouTube channel as we kick off our celebration of Sunshine Week 2022. I'm happy to be back in the McGowan Theater after two years of being physically distanced. Welcome to our distinguished guests who are joining us in person today in the McGowan Theater at the flagship National Archives building in Washington DC. I'm Martha Murphy. I'm the deputy director of the Office of Government Information Services and I'm representing the office on behalf of our director Alina Seymour who could not be here today. OJIS is the federal FOIA ombudsman and part of the National Archives and Records Administration. We resolve FOIA disputes, identify methods to improve compliance with the statute, and educate our stakeholders about the FOIA process. Each year, we celebrate Sunshine Week by promoting dialogue about the importance of open government and access to information, values that are central to the mission of the National Archives and Records Administration. We've put together an exciting program this afternoon. It's my honor and pleasure to introduce this distinguished panel, Archivist of the United States, David Ferriero, Librarian of Congress, Dr. Carla Hayden, and philanthropist and National Archives supporter, David Rubenstein, who will moderate what promises to be a terrific conversation. David Ferriero was confirmed as the 10th Archivist of the United States on November 6, 2009. Early in 2010, David committed the National Archives to the principles of open government, transparency, participation, and collaboration, which are the very values we are celebrating today. Relatedly, David has been a steadfast supporter of our office, the Office of Government Information Services, and the work that we do as the federal FOIA ombudsman's office. We have been extremely grateful for his sustained support and leadership. David will be retiring next month, and I'm grateful that he held out to participate today in our Sunshine Week event. We will truly miss you, David. Dr. Carla Hayden was confirmed as the 14th Librarian of Congress on July 13, 2016. Dr. Hayden oversees the largest library in the world, with millions of books, recordings, photographs, newspapers, maps, and manuscripts in its collections. Under Dr. Hayden's leadership, the library is adopting a digital forward strategy that harnesses technology to bridge geographical divides and expand the library's reach. Indeed, one of the library's main goals is throwing open the treasure chest. That strategy dovetails so nicely with one of the National Archives' strategic goals to make access happen. I'm thrilled to have the Archivist of the United States and the Librarian of Congress here to discuss our American treasures. Facilitating this conversation is David Rubenstein. Mr. Rubenstein is a generous supporter of the National Archives and its foundation. He received the National Archives Foundation's Records of Achievement Award in 2011. For his loan of the 1297 Magna Carta, as well as a rare stone engraving of the Declaration of Independence to the National Archives for public display. The David and Rubenstein records of rights permanent exhibit at the National Archives features the 1297 Magna Carta and tells much more of the American story by linking the documents to the U.S. Charters of Freedom. And to modern day struggles to perfect democracy, focusing on the experiences of African Americans, women and immigrants. Mr. Rubenstein is co-founder of Managing Director of the Carlisle Group, a global alternative asset manager. I know you share my excitement and hearing today from our distinguished guests. We welcome you and over to you, David Rubenstein. Thank you very much. Thank you, David and Carla, for being here today. And as we talk today, there is a lot of sunshine outside, I noticed. I wonder whether that was indicative of God's view that it was a good time to have sunshine week, but let's assume that it was. As I read the newspapers today, I read, David, that Tom Brady had decided to retire and then unretire. So I'm wondering whether there is any chance that you might unretire. Too early to tell. We'll see. We'll see how Tom makes it. Okay. So you're scheduled to retire to April 30th, but you could reverse your decision, right? No, I don't think so. This would be a family problem. Oh, okay. So people are depending upon that date. All right, but I know a lot of people would be not upset if you unretired the way Tom Brady is. So I'll try to see if I can arrange Tom Brady to give you a call to say unretiring is not such a bad thing. I will welcome that call. So for those people that are not familiar with the National Archives, when is what actually created and before was created? What do we do with all the records of the government? Well, it's a good thing Carla is sitting here because it wasn't until 1934 that the legislation was signed by FDR creating the National Archives. And before that, all the records were scattered, you know, around Washington DC and various addicts and basements, and a lot of them were at the Library of Congress. So the National Archives didn't really exist before. So like if somebody was in the government under George Washington or James Madison, they might file something somewhere and we don't have it or maybe we have some of it. And now it's more systematic, right? We have everything. Well, we aim to have everything. That doesn't mean we necessarily have everything. And as you've read in the papers recently, not everything is under control, but our goal is to control everything that's created in the executive branches, in the executive branch agencies in the White House. So why do we need to have all these records anyway because what's the point of having all these records and we need all these records, all these millions and millions of documents, what's the point of it? The point is to make sure that the American people can hold their government accountable for its actions, and hopefully that we can all learn from our past by studying what happened before us. And this is the evidence to do that investigation. In this building, the National Archives main building was open. It had a space reserved for the U.S. Constitution. Are you ready for this? And the Declaration of Independence. And at that time, those documents were at the Library of Congress and the Library of Congress said over his dead body, he let those documents come here. So how'd they get here? Did he die or what happened? He died. He died. Well, no. He died. Well, yes, he did. He was dead when FD, when Harry Truman finally said, get that document where it belongs. Well, that was unfortunate. However, but the tanks coming up to the wonderful photographs of and they're online of tanks coming up to the steps of the iconic Thomas Jefferson building at the Library of Congress. To rest that document away from you. The documents. Now we found later though. Well, they sent a tank up to protect them and they brought it down from the Library of Congress and here and now the original copy of the Constitution, the original copy of the Bill of Rights and the original copy of the Declaration of Independence are here. Is that right? That's right. And there's a rumor that if there's a nuclear explosion somewhere they go underground so they can never be destroyed. Can you comment on that? Can't comment. Can't comment. We don't talk about security. Okay. So, David, you are by background a librarian. You were the head of the New York Public Library, and even more importantly, the head of the Duke University Library, much more important, much more important. Now, Carla, you are a professional librarian, graduate of the University of Chicago PhD and library matters and you were the head of the Enoch Pratt Library in Baltimore for 23 years. Yes. So, when you were asked to be the Librarian of Congress by President Obama, did you think it was unusual that they would ask somebody who was actually a librarian because we haven't had Librarians of Congress who were Librarians before very much? Two times before, since 1802, and both were directors or librarians at large public libraries, one Cleveland Public and the other in Boston Public, but it had been 70 years. So, it's been 70 years since we had a librarian to be the head of the Librarian of Congress, but how many women have there been who are Librarians of Congress before you? Well, this is Women's History Month, so I'm the first woman. Okay. And librarianship is one of the, what they call the four feminized professions where about 85 to 90% of the workforce is female. However, the top management doesn't always reflect that. So I'm the first female, and then the first person of color, so I'm a two-fer. I'm a three-fer. I'm a three-fer. So very unusual. Okay. All right, but actually, why does the Congress need a library? Do they read that much? That's the question like he was asking you about nuclear. Very similar. Yes, because the Library of Congress was actually started at 1800, and it was about 600 law books right here in DC because there was the thought that they might have to refer to some texts. And as Thomas Jefferson said, when he sold his library to Congress after an unfortunate fire in 1812, the British invaded Washington. They burned down the Congress and where the Library of Congress was. And they used some of the books too. I saw the. Okay, so Thomas Jefferson sold his library. At that time, 1814, he had the largest personal library in the United States, about 6000 volumes. It included the Quran, books on horticulture, all different subjects, different languages. And he said there's no topic to which a member of Congress should not have occasion to refer. And that started the idea that members of Congress needed more than just a few law books they needed to know more about. Okay, but today, today, is the Library of Congress only for members of Congress. It is for everyone. The Library of Congress has a special unit that grew out of that service to Congress, especially called the Congressional Research Service. They are a group of we call them our special forces. They're librarians and experts in every field, and they give nonpartisan objective information directly to Congress. Congress is the only body that can actually check out anything, but it is the nation's library. So if you're a member of Congress, you can actually check a book out of the Library of Congress. You could. Do they return the books on time? We keep track, but there are no fines. No fines. But we keep track, and now they can do e-books and things. Well, how do you tell a member of Congress, especially of a committee chair, by the way, your books overdue, do you send them a little notice? Or what do you do? We do contact them, and we keep up. And usually we work with staff members as well. Okay. But now the collection has grown to 171 million items, and it's really for Congress and the people it serves. So anybody can now go to the Library of Congress. 16, you can get a reader's card, and we work with a network, and David knows this, a network of libraries throughout the country and the world. David, since I came of age, there's been something called digitization. So to be honest, it's nice that you have all these documents and everything, but why do we really need documents anymore? Because everything is digitized. Why don't we just put everything on a computer and get rid of all these pieces of paper you have? Oh, David, if only we had digitized everything. Oh, it's not everything's not digitizing. We have more than 15 billion pieces of paper and parchment. A very small percentage of them have been digitized, and the reason that we're digitizing is because people don't have to come to Washington in order to find out, to hold their government accountable. They don't get as much information to them wherever they are. But is your plan eventually, or your success was planned, you think it will be to digitize every single thing, or is that just unrealistic, too expensive, impractical? That certainly is part of our strategic plan is to digitize everything. I will never, we will never live to see it, but that's the goal. It's coupled with the fact that now most of the information that's being generated has no paper equivalent, it's born digital, so there is no paper to be digitized later. So we're talking about our past history that's being digitized. So one of your other responsibilities is to administer, if I understand it correctly, the presidential libraries. So we have a system that started with, I guess, FDR, and now we have every president has their own library. Does every president need his own library? Yes, of course. Each one of those facilities delivers a different message about anyone can become the president of the United States. So most of these 14 now presidential libraries are cited in a town somewhere that has something to do with the life of that president. So you get an opportunity to not only to learn with the records and artifacts of that administration, but the setting to know that, especially important for young people to think, to dream about becoming the president or a life in public service. And that's one of the fundamental roles that the presidential libraries play. Okay, now the latest presidential library that's under construction is the presidential library for President Obama, but it's not a library. It's not a library. It's the Obama Presidential Center. It's the museum piece and the community center aspect of presidential library. Since about 95% of the Obama records were born digital, we are creating the first digital presidential library, no physical facility. So if I go to the Obama Presidential Center and say, let me see some papers, they would say everything's digitized or go to the national library. Why would you do that? You wouldn't even have to do that. You could do that from home. Okay, so there will be a museum. So the artifacts, which still belong to the federal government. Okay, let's suppose I want to go see some of these digital digitize assets you have of papers, but there's a electricity shortage, and all of a sudden the electricity, our grid system goes down. Do we lose everything or what happens during that period of time because everything's dependent on there being electricity, right? That's one of the scary things about everything that we're doing these days is dependent upon an ancient technology electricity. And it scares me to think what could happen if we're for long periods of time without electricity. That's why I'm back up very important to ensure that it's not just one copy but we have multiple copies in the whole concept of now storing in the cloud to guarantee that there are multiple versions or copies of the digital information. Well, take cyber, for example, cyber, people sometimes do cyber attacks that somebody cyber attack and vacuum away all of your digital assets or something or not. We are in fact under attack now by Russian invasions of our systems. Yes. Big concern going on right now in the federal government. And a lot of in the Library of Congress as part of a group we all work together cyber security is one of our top priorities and we've had to strengthen our defenses we get about Library of Congress gets about, I don't know, 200,000 attempts or attacks a day. But the library normal time the Library of Congress has lots of books right. Manuscripts, film, all of that. Are you trying to digitize all of those. No, not everything. And what the Library of Congress is trying to do is digitize the more unique materials the papers of the 23 presidents from Washington to Coolidge that we have the most valuable things you want to well and the unique thing so we don't need to for instance even if we have a copy of a best seller or something like that we don't need to digitize or do that it's the unique parts of our collection that people literally would not the papers of Rosa Parks, that you would have to come and before 36 Supreme Court. You have one of your valuable works is the Gutenberg Bible. Yes. So you're not digitizing that. No, okay. We sell the facsimile in the store. Okay, so when people let's suppose I'm an average citizen and I want to go visit the Library of Congress and I want to do my paper I want to write a paper. And I just walk up to Library of Congress say here I am citizen, and I want to do some research how do you, how do you do that you can actually get a reader's card and I think a lot of people might not realize that it's 16. I read a lot with the school systems and colleges and community colleges and things that people can actually go into the 19 reading rooms and request to see material some materials are much more restrictive. In terms of, you can't say I'd like to see every, you know, Teddy Roosevelt's diary. That's not going to come I'd like to wander around the stacks of the Library of Congress can you do that. Not anymore, not anymore. Okay, there used to be a time that you could but now. Well, for both of you there's a serious problem, which is people try to steal things from time to time. There was an instant number of years ago where somebody took some documents put him in his sock I guess, and escape with him and he was subsequently indicted for that. And then when you have physical documents people think there's some value to getting them or something. So how do you deal with that first David and Carla how do you deal with that problem. Constant vigilance. It's this delicate balance between access and protection that we all all of us deal with every day to ensure that we have measures and plays security cameras. Monitoring and use ensuring that we have line site of people when they're using our materials inspect bag inspections when people are leaving all those kinds of standard practices to protect. All the stuff gets away. And we have within our Inspector General office and within our facilities, holding protection, folks who are monitoring trade sales, eBay, things like that for things that may have gone away. It's similar with the library. It's similar and especially the checking of bags and backpacks of staff as well, because some of the time it's. That's an important aspect. Yes, most of the FBI tells me that most of this is insider theft. In other words, it's possible that somebody could come in and from an outside of public citizen take something but the bigger problem has historically been people that work there that know the system, they slip out. And sometimes when they slip out people they will say well, I work here so you don't have to worry about me so they right and remember file if you have a letter to Teddy Roosevelt from someone and we haven't stamped it or put a little thing on it. You could put it in a folder like this. The world has changed. Oh, I shouldn't have said that but this is sunshine. The world's changed since COVID, obviously, and we're coming back to a more normalized system where people are coming back but actually how did you run during the COVID isolation period of time David how did you run the archives were you still coming in or where did you do what were people doing. So I was still here in lonely in this building me in the security folks. And across the country. All many of our staff were teleworking and providing a fair amount of service remotely. One of the benefits side benefits of this focus on digitization is that a fair amount of material is available now digitally. And so a fair number of those research questions could be answered by staff remotely. And we were fortunate to get to be a beneficiary of the first COVID bill, which allowed us to issue laptops to folks at home so they would be able to do some of the processing work and dealing with the public from home. So Carla what were you doing during very commuting occasionally from home and doing quite a bit of the telework and we were also able to have staff members who could still process materials they we had to kind of drive up system where a cataloger could come and actually pick up materials and take them and come back and all of that so there was a lot of transcription that was going on and the public help does quite a bit too. Pre COVID how many people year would come visit the National Archives. Oh, that's not on your list of questions. About a million and a quarter or something like that maybe million. Well, that's that's the figure for the rotunda. We have 40 facilities across the country. So, I would have to get back to you on that. And we had about 2 million. Okay, so you have lots of visitors and so forth and when people come to the National Archives as a visitor what are they most want to see the declaration of independence right now the Declaration of Independence that you have is pretty much faded. I mean it looks it's very faded. It is the original. The original is very faded right very faded. Okay, so people are they disappointed when they see how faded is or they don't care. We quickly refer them to the stone copy that you've loaned to us so that you can see what it's supposed to look like. Carla one of most people want to see in the Library of Congress. They really do want to see that Gutenberg Bible, and they want to also look into the main reading room. The main reading room and to look at it. And that's where David McCullough and Doris Kearns Goodwin and all these authors sat there and Alex Haley. I'm sat there and did their research and so people want to have this main reading room the big dome it's one of the most beautiful rooms in the world. But if you walk through there and, you know, and yours, you're kind of researching something but you fall asleep there, do you don't kick people out of their sleeping. No, no, we know they're taking it just a brain pause. Okay, so David. What is the pleasure of being the National Archivist. What's the great pleasure of it. You were you were minding your own business. You're running the New York Public Library. Somebody calls you up and says, guess what I'm speaking for the president United States. I want you to be a natural archivist you say is this a joke or or why would I want to do this or I said I'm flattered but you're looking at the wrong person. I'm a librarian why would you be hiring someone who knew the business that was the exact conversation I had with Kyle Watkins, the 12 year old undergraduate at Georgetown who made that George Washington, who made that phone call on a Friday afternoon. And he said well would you think about it over the weekend and he called back on Monday. And we had the same conversation and 10 minutes later an adult called and asked if he could come to New York and talk to me. And it was Tom Wheeler, who is on the former head of FCC was on the National Archives Foundation Board, who kind of painted the picture of what the president was looking for in this new archivist in terms of the the open government initiative. And that became I became very interested in that, and the fact that my background fit very nicely with what they were looking. So the president call you and say anything or he just said no, he didn't call you. Okay, so how did you get that I mean Carla you were well known. You were the former head of the American Library Association. Right now crack library and Baltimore, the head of the head library in Chicago. How did you get your position, other than being qualified for the president call you and say no he doesn't call. It's people. But we, what happened, my predecessor Dr. Jim Billington had been the Library of Congress for a number of years, and when he announced his retirement, the then administration Obama administration asked a group of librarians as part of the groups to just weigh in on what the Library of Congress could be going forward and I was part of that group and then I got a call from mine with Amanda moose. Oh yeah very seasoned though person with the administration who. Okay, wonder if I consider what's the pleasure of being a library in a Congress. It's like being in a well that opening up the treasure chest. And fine and having curators and librarians say, you know, could we come up because we've just purchased or we've had gift of, and then they bring it so like being in a university and it's being in class every day tension me moments that those that's the pleasure. But if you're the archivist of the United States or you're the Library of Congress and you want to go to a restaurant and you have to stand in line you're going to say, I'm the archivist United States Library of Congress can you get a better reservation. No, no, no, no, it's not in this. And the two of us are not people who would throw our way around with so we usually wait in line and hope. So if you have any presence the United States visit any archives. Yes, yes. The former president had a very important meeting here on American history. Okay, former presidents come. Yes, and current presidents, also, and vice presidents and cabinet members and speaker and things that's a regular part. Since you have it's a National Archives I assume 100% of the money that you need, you get from Congress is that right you get everything from Congress you need to pay your budget. Is that right. Not quite. We have a wonderful National Archives Foundation, which deals with private philanthropy. Very much focused on patriotic philanthropy thanks for your leadership arena. So you have a foundation that contributes what Congress doesn't contribute to it enables us to do all of our education and exhibition programming. So the Library Congress you get all your money from the government as well. No, but we have the same wonderful philanthropic group, similar the James Madison Council and you very much a part of that and head that up and that has allowed us to not only acquire individuals, but also do the exhibits and special things and it really helps. So what about diversity, equity and inclusion. Since you joined the library world and since you joined the library world. It's changed a fair bit. Our whole society has changed. There's more concerned about diversity, equity inclusion as it should be. In terms of your personality you hire. Are you more sensitive to this than you used to be or then your predecessors used to be much more sensitive. In fact, we have completed the work on a task force that I established on racism to take a look at just that you know how we are. What is our history been in terms of hiring minorities. What are the opportunities for minorities to move to advance. What are the retention issues involved. So we're very much focused on that now. And I can I can tell you, since I'm getting ready to leave I've been thinking a lot about what my management team look like when I came here and what it looks like now and it's, it was very diverse when you first came. It was not. Now, as a woman of color I assume you are sensitive to these issues but have you done a lot to improve the DI diversity, equity and inclusion at the Library of Congress. I think we've moved forward quite a bit and in fact we just had a major barrier analysis. And that was really something from the recruitment and retention to also just some of our basic policies in terms of staff and and and how their internal interaction. For instance, think about the fact that with the teleworking and we talked about that people were able to do different things but the staff members and when the analysis the people who couldn't telework were often the lower paid and from different underrepresented groups so you have to it's a fulsome look at what are the barriers to progress. David the archives was in the news not long ago because Congress wanted some of your records and when litigation and so forth, your position is whatever the law is I comply with and always a court says I have to comply with the document give it to Congress you do you don't get involved saying I don't want to provide this is that right as much as I would like to. I do not, I do not get involved with that. But if there if it's on there, there are situations where we would may consult with Department of Justice on particularly sensitive documents. I don't have that big of personal library or that many documents in my home but I know I can't even find the ones I'm supposed to find my house. So if you have to find something. Do you have any trouble actually finding it is everything really coded and you can, if you call somebody or step and say, I need this document, can you get it right away or they say well I'm going to look for it we'll see we'll get back in a week or so. Because it's not usually a document, it's a vague description of the kind of information that someone's looking for it's a standard reference transaction, trying to narrow down exactly what someone's looking for. Because the original question is usually so broad that there are millions of records that would that would meet that. So we spent a lot of time trying to narrow down what exactly you're looking for. And David, oh, I just, I remember one of my most impressive visits to one of the presidential libraries of the one in Little Rock, the Clinton Library and when the archivist there was talking about just the processing of the boxes from staff and she said there are some boxes you know when staff are leaving administrations and like put in a box those things have to be processed. And you can find everything if I if you. Oh no, no, and some things are mis-filed. Some things are mis-filed. I want a certain book. That's easier. But the information that we can provide the reports and things directly to them, but those processing of materials is very. A rearage. So with physical documents one of the problems is often they could be destroyed to a fire. You have very good anti-fire systems I assume. And that's not a big problem. It was a big problem. It's something that we pay attention to in the wake up call came for a fire in St. Louis with our military records where millions of records were destroyed. So does it concern you or does it make you feel good that when you became the archivist United States they could go back and find letters that you wrote to presidents United States where little boy does that concern you that we have too many files that we're keeping or it shows you how great they are in keeping certain information so can you describe these letters you wrote to presidents when you were eight or nine. It concerned me more that I had forgotten the letters. They found them. When I met with the directors of the presidential libraries for the first time. The director of the Kennedy handed me a copy of a letter that the kid wrote to the president asking for information about the proposed B score. And that, that was a stunning moment because it was a letter for me, but more stunning was to watch the faces of the other 12 at that point directors because they were like, Oh my God how am I going to top this. Later the ice now are called it say that found two letters for me to present my son and then at the LBJ. They found my letter to LBJ congratulating him for signing the Civil Rights Act. So it just felt like the stars were aligned and I was in the right place. So there's those the letters are now in your office but when you copies copies or the original you keep the case you can keep the copies but the original are still here. The letters are in the presidential libraries. I mean the originals are in the presidential. Okay. All right, so Carla, in your case if you want to check out a book, you can check out any book right. You're not a member of Congress but can you check out any book. I possibly could I'd have to make arrangements though. Okay, but normally you go to a bookstore if you need a book, that's easier. Okay, so let's talk about why it's important to have all these records because the truth is sometimes people say government has too much information and maybe be better or not to have all this data. So what do you say about that, David. More information is is is what we should be looking for more access to information and we're both in the business of making access happen trying to figure out ways that we can make it easier for people to get at the information that they need. So for me, it's the working working with the agencies to ensure that they're creating, maintaining and then transferring to us those records in an appropriate manner, so that's monitoring guidance that we provide to each of the agencies, and ensuring that once we have it in our custody that it's protected, and that we can find it that we can deliver. So for a long time, there are certain things that you have that are not made public. Like I think the things relating to President Kenny's assassination were not made public for a while I don't know if they're all public now or not, but not yet, not yet, but they will be at some point we're getting we're getting closer and closer. So there are certain things that are so secret, or should be secret or they're just not appropriate for public dissemination is that right you still have a lot of that or some of that we do and it's it's part of a larger problem, having to do with how the classification system works and And I just have to say there's some things that the donor, for instance, the Supreme Court justice papers and we're working with family in the state of justice, Sandra Day O'Connor and Justice Ginsburg was also working with us so there are certain things we have the archives for instance of the NAACP and the legal defense fund certain things because of legal requirements or the requirements of the donor, you can't some things are not supposed to be for a number of years and things like in the case of Sandra Day O'Connor she. And to you or was it at the, the Supreme Court some her old files or something. It depends and that's where you work directly with the Supreme Court and you work with the family so the personal letters for instance between the justice and her husband that's the family's purview but some of the case files and things. One of her biographers Evan Thomas found a document was a marriage proposal from William Renquist when he was a former law school student to Sandra Day O'Connor that nobody had remembered but apparently he proposed marriage anyway. And see that's in her personal papers. Somebody famous in the United States says Carla, look, I would like to give my papers to the Library of Congress. And why should somebody want to give their papers to you do you give them you pay them a lot of money for that or. Well, you don't pay money but you definitely assure the person or the organization for instance the Alva daily dance there that their materials will be preserved and made accessible that point. Right so somebody would say I'm going to give my papers to Library of Congress, presumably if they're valuable to get some tax deduction, but that's their business. And then you get, you will presumably if you think that it's worth it you will digitize them or two scholars can have in the future but so somebody calls you up and says, I would like to give my papers to Library of Congress but they're not that prominent person and you really don't want the papers. Does that happen. Well, that's where you have and we want things from, for instance, the Veterans History Project, and we have oral histories and now goes to our families that we want the diaries we want the letters the American Folklife Center, different groups that are that so we have a full program of documenting what everyone's history. There are ways that we can work with people with that to communities, churches, all types. How do you tell people who think they're important that their papers aren't really of that much interest to Library of Congress do you ever tell them that or you have somebody else do that. No, we have. We really it's almost like a counseling session where you work with the person and say you know you're Alma mater or they might be more appropriate and David has been in those conversations where it might. You don't have to do that but you know you try to work with the person to think about where the best place would be so David if somebody wants to look at National Archives documents. Is it like the Library of Congress they can come here and sign up and just go through the archive archives that you have or how do they, how do they actually get access to things the average person or this scholar. One of the one of the features that helped us make it through the covert situation is consultation pre pre visit consultation so we have some sense of what people are looking for. And we can have the material waiting for them when they get here, rather than wasting their time on searches that we don't have the material to that similar with the library to. One of the most memorable things when you have a an award you give out every year to people like Ken Burns I think you gave it to Lynn Manuel and other people like that. So any of those particularly memorable when you meet Lynn Manuel or famous people come here and you do that a lot. That was that was an interesting one because we were honoring Lynn Tommy Kale, the director and Ron chair now who wrote the book and in and so forth as you know, the dinner of the evening we do a document display, and the three of them, and myself, and one of our curators, looking over some of the material that Ron used in writing, writing, writing the book. And then the conversation this is the most wonderful the conversation between Ron and Lynn and the argument they had over what what really happened. That's the kind of moments that stick in the moment. So, Carly you have an award at the Library of Congress now about 20 years old to give a Gershwin prize out to a songwriter and just most recently you did it to Lionel Richie so is that fun when you have a concert to meet these people. Because it's named the George and Ira Gershwin prize for popular song and the library has the archive of George and Ira Gershwin, including George Gershwin's piano and Lionel Richie actually sat down at that piano and played Embraceable you and it was like oh my goodness. I think it was in the late 1800s maybe 1870 or so where Congress said if you want to have a copyright, you have to send two copies of your book, let's say to Library of Congress and they will give you a copyright is that still people still do that. Yes, 1870 is when the Library of Congress became formally the administrator of the US copyright system and part of registration for copyright is the deposit requirement so it's not just books it's video games now and all paper, anything that's being copyrighted there's that so the library get about 20,000 items for deposit every working day and the library gets to select from that grouping and we select about 15,000 items. I mean everybody added to the collection to the collection but suppose somebody writes a book and your people don't think it's such a great book you still give it a copyright. Oh yeah, the copyright system is separate. So the library gets to actually select from the wall paper. We don't do that. What do you do if they send you two copies and you don't really want them you just. Well, they, there's a warehouse and inventory of deposit so that's separate and they have they have to keep that one copy for the deposit. So what's the, what's the, the greatest pleasure you've had of being Library of Congress, working with the staff members. We have so many wonderful items and you I know you have the treasures and things like that but then when you put those items with a curator who can tell you about grants letters to his wife or you can really make the materials come along that's I know it's both of you have employees have been there 20 years 30 years sometimes 40 years 50 years, but how do you hold on these people because you know you pay government salaries which are not generally that generous relatively speaking. They don't go up that much either annually so is it hard to hold on the people and attract new people. People are because of technology and the way information is being generated and shared now. These are attractive institutions to work, but they're also and we've we've grown up in institutions that are populated by people who make this their career, lifetime career, because of the mission of the institution. And that information of collecting and protecting and most importantly making information available. There's a passion that that people bring to that dedication. What about you do you have a hard time holding on the people know and, in fact, the people are so dedicated. She's well known in the from the manuscripts division and she retired after 52 years and now she volunteers and is giving tours around the library and talking about those are. That's a good answer but you wouldn't be better to say no I need more money from Congress to pay my people more you don't have to say there's that. Of course, and I need more people. How many actually employees do you actually have at the archives 2700 across the 4700 and what about the Library of Congress 353500. Hey, David, you and your archives administers the presidential library system. Have you been to a lot of these libraries. Oh, you've been all of them. Of course, you've been every presidential library got six David, I've been on the job for 12 years. Okay, so the most visited presidential library I was told is the Ronald Reagan Library is that right. And they told you that right. They did actually, but that's not right. It is right. Yes. And the least visited is that the Herbert Hoover one West branch Iowa in the middle of a cornfield so it's not that many people go in there right. Okay, so when you go to these presidential libraries, do you have to stand in line with everybody else or you can just, you don't have to stand in line. Most of them know me by now. Okay. All right. You're coming. I don't think I'm, you know, they're interesting. It's an interesting kind of piece of the responsibilities because it's a relationship between among the federal government, a private foundation and the family. So a lot of it, a lot of the my responsibilities is kind of stewardship ensuring that that relationship three way relationship is working. Okay, so Carla, you presumably go to libraries around the country right. And the Library of Congress has the three buildings in Washington DC and then the facility and call pepper Virginia for recorded sound and film and that they actually have a theater there and now you have three main buildings. Washington. One is named after Jefferson. Why did he get a building. Well, it's Thomas Jefferson. Well, but you sold me sold the collection and he's really the intellectual foundation of the growth of the library. So, John Adams, why did he get a building. He was the president that actually started the library and then James Madison. Madison building actually is the only official monument to him in Washington DC. And so when you think about what Madison, in terms of his legacy, those are the three. And it is said that James Madison was a person who had the idea for a library Congress, but it took Congress 17 years actually passed that bill, but yes, I think we can understand that these days. So, David, when you retire, if you don't retire, but you, if you don't retire and you retire on April 30. What do you plan to do with your time. We talked about this before. Well, we're going to make up for lost time and do some traveling and relax and kind of decompress and then one day at a time. Okay. And, but when you want to come back to National Archives, you want to stand in line outside or anything like that, you'll probably get you in quickly. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Depends on who the next archivist is, I suppose. He'll let you. The biggest, I ask you with the greatest pleasure was what's the biggest headache associated with being the Archivist United States. I think you have a sense of it based on the news over the last couple of months about just people following rules and ensuring that this is, you know, this is kind of widespread this police policing of the agencies and the White House about record keeping. So what you're referring to is, as I understand, I work in the White House as a young man and I remember when we left under the Carter administration, they said every piece of paper is actually owned by the government. And actually, before I think Richard Nixon, all the documents in the White House were owned by the president, right, more or less. So now everything, every document, every tweet, every digital anything is owned by the US government. Is that right? That's right. And so people aren't supposed to take them. That's it. Is that the rules? Is that a problem for you? Or you're dealing with it. Okay. And that's presidential records act. That's not federal records act. So presidential records act. Okay. So, Carla, what's the biggest downside or problem with being a library in a Congress other than, you know, having to have questions from me to you about things like this. What is your biggest downside? Well, I would call it a challenge and it has to do with that digital forward movement and making sure that we can keep up with the digital environment. And that's where the resources come in, getting talent, all of those things. So when you look to the future, and we're preserving we have so many items that we've been very expert at preserving paper and things like that. But now when you look to a digital future and preserving and keeping up, that's. And it's all, it's all dependent upon investment and technology infrastructure. Yes. That's something that the government is not good at. Right. So if the White House is now looking for somebody to be your successor, if somebody who's a candidate calls you up and says, David, the White House has said maybe I'm a candidate. Do you think I should take this job? What would you say to somebody take this job or maybe think about it twice? Well, it depends on who's asking the question. Well, let's suppose it's a friend of yours. I would be very, very honest to them and tell them the upside and the downside. So you would be, you would encourage them to do it. And you think the best qualification to be archivist the United States is to be a librarian or to be what, what would you think is the best qualification? I just based on my own experience, I think my library background contributed to our ability to move forward. I remember when, when the announcement was made about my nomination on one of the list serves, history list serves. Harriet, I don't know, she didn't have her last name said he's only a librarian. I've had that too. David, you know, we always like to think of the United States were the best at everything, but do we have the best archive system in the world or who do you think is good if we're not the best, who's better than us or who's the second best? We're one of the leaders. We have a very close working relationship with Canada, UK and Australia. And we, we are probably at the same level in terms of our control of the digital world. Right. So would you recommend that somebody come and visit the National Archives but they can see historic documents and you do recommend to people that's a good place to come get a tour. Exactly. And we're focused now on, we haven't talked about this, but we're really focused on civic education because of just the disappearance of civics and curriculum now so we spent a lot of time on that agenda. Do we have the best library? The Library of Congress is the best library in the world, would you say? It's definitely one of the leaders. And when you think of a national library issue, the top three would be the British Library and Bibliotheque National. So in terms of leading with that. So when you go around the country visiting people, what is the most frequent question you get asked? Well, because I'm a librarian, they want to know what my favorite item is in the library's collection. And I always say, well, I haven't seen it yet. But when you're the Library of Congress, you've got to be reading a lot of books because they always want to know what you're reading, right? What's on your bedstand? What's that? What was your favorite, what's your favorite book? It's like I haven't read it yet, but I can tell you what books have been meaningful to me. And you read fiction and nonfiction? Fiction, nonfiction, cereal boxes. I mean, I'm a reader. But when an author sends you a personal copy of his or her book, you have to, what do you do? You have to read it or you don't read it, but if you run into that person again, what do you say? Thank you. Now, in terms of literacy, our country has a very big illiteracy problem. 14% of adults in this country cannot read past a fourth grade level. Is there anything that the US government can do more than we've already done to kind of get people to learn how to read? So, well, the Library of Congress, and you've been very helpful with that, gives out literacy awards to literacy organizations. So you support the organizations that are doing the work and adult illiteracy is even more troubling at times because there are people who can read, but they don't read. Right, that's called illiteracy. Yeah, and you can tie people's advancement in life to their literacy levels. I think I read that something like 30% of people who have college degrees never read another book after they graduate from college. So, David, if you could meet any president whose library you have visited, who would you like to meet and ask him a question? What would you ask any of these presidents or anybody that you really say, look, your documents weren't in very good shape or why didn't you do this better? Anybody question you would like to ask any of the presidents you visited their libraries? I think, you know, I grew up in Massachusetts, very much influenced by the Kennedys. I was in high school when he was elected. He's the person I think that I would like to meet. In terms of questions, I would have no specific questions about the records. So, Carla, if you can meet any author who's ever written anything, who would you like to meet and have dinner with? Is there anybody I don't know who would it be? Well, I actually had that experience with Doris Kearns Goodwood. Yes. And it was on the first year anniversary and they asked me for the New York Times when, you know, that thing, who would you go ahead and ask her while? James Baldwin and Doris Kearns Goodwood for dinner and she actually called. Wow. And it was a dream because we talked about civic education and the history never stops and what you're going to collect in the future and her view and it just was the magical. She's great. I love her books. I've interviewed her many times. But why not Shakespeare? I mean, you can ask him who wrote those plays, right? Yeah, but then we'd have to fold your Shakespeare. They would get on us a little bit about that. But in terms of someone who makes history come alive and accessible, if you read No Ordinary Time, you know how it ends or you know what it is. David, when presidents have taped their oboe offices, I think FDR might have done some. And he did some. Lyndon Johnson did some. We obviously know Nixon did. Those tapes, are they in the National Archives? They are. They're in the Presidential Archives. And you ever, when you have some spare time, you ever go listen to those tapes and say, hey, what was really going on here? Most of them have been transcribed and are available online and you can do that yourself. Right. Yeah. Okay. So if you were giving any advice to your successor about the best thing to do in this job, what would you tell him or her? There's never been a female archivist, has there? No, I would. And that's advice I've given to the White House already that you better not hire another white male. We've had 10 white males. What advice would I give that person? Fight for more money. Get to know your staff. You have an extraordinary staff. Don't bring a posse in here and get to know your talent before you make any moves and learn the history of the agency. So, now the position of Librarian of Congress, your position has no fixed term, is that right? So President appoints you, but there's no fixed term. So you're retiring just because you want to retire. I want this administration to be the administration that replaces me. Okay. It used to be that the Librarian of Congress was appointed for life. Same. Yeah, that was that. It used to be appointed for life and it's changed now and it's a 10-year appointment and then can be renewed for another 10 years. Is that right? Right. And it was interesting because I'm the first female and the first person of color. When people found out about that change, they thought, oh, is it because you're the first female and the first person of color? And I tell them, no, that part, that group that was advising was saying this because of what's happening in libraries and the profession, you need to have a term. And so we support that as a profession that you need to have a term. So you are in your, what year now? The 6th of going into the 6th, you know, the 10th. Four years plus and you can be reappointed for another 10 years. I'm older than I look. So whenever you, you know how old I am. Whenever, whenever you decide after your second term to do something else, let's say, what would be your advice to your successor? My advice would center around looking at what the possibilities are with technology, the programming, the digitizing, how you can let more people know that the Library of Congress is for them and they can use the things that the library has. So on behalf of the American people, I'd like to thank both of you if you're a public service, you've done a great job. I know you both and you've really worked tirelessly in these jobs and I've enjoyed a chance to work with both of you. And David, I wish you weren't retiring, but I understand that sometimes people like to retire. But if you unretire, I'm sure nobody will be upset. And Carl, I hope you'll be doing this for many, many years. And I'm looking forward to that call from Tom Brady. Okay, well, thank you all very much. Okay, thank you. Please join me in thanking David, Carla and David for a very robust discussion of open government and transparency at the archives and the Library of Congress. You've certainly given us all a lot to think about our remaining presenters are virtual. So I just asked a number of stakeholders to record brief videos, answering the question, what do open government and transparency mean to you. Please join me for the next seven or so minutes, as we listen to representatives from non governmental organizations, academia and the press, share what open government and transparency means to them. Hi, my name is Ginger Kintero McCall and I'm the legal director at demand progress. I was also previously Oregon's first public records advocate and I've worked as a FOIA attorney both in the federal government and in the advocacy community. The open government and transparency mean to me can best be summarized in a story from the beginning of my career when I was working at the electronic privacy information center. Epic had heard about the airport body scanners that were being rolled out across the country, and we had significant privacy concerns about them. But before we could launch a meaningful public campaign, we needed to get more facts. We ended a series of public records request to the US Department of Homeland Security. The documents that we received in response indicated that the machines were both very invasive, and that they were not particularly effective at picking up powdered explosives, which were the primary threat at the time. The documents also indicated that the machines could potentially store and export the very graphic images that they were producing. Armed with these documents, Epic was able to go to the press and to the public and advocate for meaningful reforms related to these machines. The machines that you see in the airport these days are much more privacy protective, and that is a direct result of the public records requests and lawsuits that Epic filed and the documents that we received back in response. That to me is the promise of open government and transparency that it allows citizens to better understand what the government is doing on their behalf, and then to advocate for reforms which will better reflect the actual will of the public. Government transparency is essential for informed citizenry and a meaningful democracy. Thank you. I'm a policy council at Americans for Prosperity Foundation. I'm also honored to serve as the president of the American Society of Access Professionals. Our society is stronger when people can hold those in power accountable. Whether you're a journalist and activist or a concerned citizen, the right to access government information is an important tool for achieving that goal. Research shows that robust and effective freedom of information laws increase civic participation, reduce corruption and improve fiscal management. Transparency in short, fosters mutual trust between the governed and their leaders. It's not only the principal thing to do. It also has positive practical consequences. I'm proud to be a strong advocate for open government. That means not settling for the status quo. Transparency requires vigilance. Opening the government is an ongoing effort that entails consideration of the needs and motivation of the federal bureaucracy, the press, government watchdogs and the broader requester community. As a frequent requester and FOIA educator, I always value the opportunity to interact with FOIA and Privacy Act professionals. The relationship between requesters and the government is too often cast as adversarial, and reasonable minds do often disagree about whether a particular record is exempt. But even with those differing perspectives, we are all working towards the same goal. We all care about transparency, and we all acknowledge that open government is an important foundation for a free and prosperous society, a society that respects the rule of law and is unafraid for people to know what their government is up to. I love the Freedom and Information Act because it's pretty incredible that there's a law that gives the public a fighting chance to force the government to release records to the public that the government itself would rather keep secret. Hi, my name is Bayman Day-Johnson, and I'm currently an Associate Professor of Government at Hamilton College. When I think of open government and transparency, a few things come to mind. First, I think of a government that proactively shares its information with the public whenever possible. As we know, there are mechanisms in place that allow individuals to directly request information. However, this process can sometimes be complex for those who may have less experience interfacing with the government in this way. Through the proactive sharing of information, it helps simplify the process of becoming a more informed individual. Now, of course, as we know, there are going to be circumstances where it is important to make direct requests to government offices for information, particularly sensitive information. In these instances, open government and transparency means having the resources in place to help individuals navigate this process if they ever do need assistance. So for example, if someone needs help knowing who to ask or what type of information they can ask for, are there resources available to help? So one quick example, the Office of Government Information Services, they aid and assist FOIA requesters navigate the process every single day. Open government is truly only open if it's widely accessible, and part of that involves making sure there are resources in place to help individuals understand the type of information that they can have access to. And as I said earlier, open government and transparency means the proactive sharing of information whenever possible. Thank you. Happy Sunshine Week, everyone. My name is Lauren Harper, and I'm the Public Policy Director at the National Security Archive. I'm hard pressed to think of a better time to highlight the importance of open government and transparency, both at home and abroad. The war in Ukraine highlights the fundamental importance of transparency and intelligence sharing. The Biden administration sharing of declassified intelligence on Russian invasion plans was crucial. And an example of global public interest clearly outweighing the impetus for secrecy, and should set the standard going forward. Here in the US, our lawmakers are pressing to find the truth of what the Trump administration knew about the January 6 insurrection and when. They will prevail, but are facing steep obstacles, in no small part because of the terrible record keeping practices of the former president. The silver lining here is that this should serve to draw a bright line in the federal government that preservation should be the default. What can we gain with a robust whole of government transparency regime? NARA has already shown us with the Argentine declassification project. Some 7500 CIA, FBI, DOD, NSC and State Department records, 47,000 pages in total, all concentrated on human rights abuses in that country were handed over to the Argentine government in 2019. Archivist David Ferriero, who will all miss, said that reviewers worked for a total of 32,000 hours to complete the task and were able to release the documents 97% unredacted. We know that NARA's responsibility is outsized, that its staff is dedicated, that it usually doesn't get the recognition it deserves. Because of that, we'll continue to work to highlight how important NARA is and its need for robust funding so that we all have access to our government's records and a fuller appreciation of our history. Thank you and happy Sunshine Week. Thank you, Ginger, Kateria McCall, Ryan Mulvey, Nate Jones, Vemende Johnson and Lauren Harper for bringing open government and transparency to life for us. What a fitting way to observe Sunshine Week. To end our Sunshine Week celebration today we are thrilled to welcome Senator Patrick Leahy, who graciously pre-recorded a video message. Senator Leahy is a longtime promoter of open government and transparency. He has played a key role in every amendment to the Freedom of Information Act since 1975. And he began serving at when he began serving in the United States Senate. Senator Leahy has worked with members on both sides of the aisle to enhance and expand Americans access to information about what the government is up to. And after significance for the National Archives, Senator Leahy was a main sponsor of the Open Government Act of 2007, which made the first significant reforms to FOIA in more than a decade. The Open Government Act, which became law in 2007, created the Federal FOIA Ombudsman's Office, the Office of Government Information Services. Like Archivist David Ferriero, Senator Leahy is retiring at the end of this year, after eight terms, 48 years. Without further ado, over to Senator Leahy. I'd like to sincerely thank my friend David Ferriero, the Archivist of the United States, for hosting this important Sunshine Week event. This year's Sunshine Week is particularly meaningful to me. This could be my last as U.S. Senator. David, we're here together. And being a part of this annual event. And more importantly, being a part of this community of transparency and open government advocates. That's been one of the most important and gratifying aspects of my Senate career. I long believe that transparency is not just a nice optional feature to have in a democracy. It's a fundamental pillar of a democracy. The American people's right to know what their government is doing. And that's enshrined in FOIA, our nation's premier transparency law. That's essential to protecting against abuses by the powerful. And to let the American people serve as a check against government wrongdoing. It reflects a simple but I think profound principle that a government of buying for the people cannot be one whose actions are hidden from them. Over the last few decades, I've worked with you all to bring a little more sunshine into the halls of power. Together, we strengthened, we've updated the Freedom and Information Act. We've made amendments to the law several times, but in significant ways. For example, we brought FOIA into the modern Internet era. We wanted to ensure that Americans are able to interface with their government. They do that with companies and their communities. They should be able to do it with their government. And together, most recently, we enshrined a presumption of openness in the law. We do this to prevent agencies from blindly withholding information without having a clear ration out for doing so. Now I know that there's a lot more work that remains to be done to improve FOIA and expand transparency. FOIA request backlogs are unacceptably long. Agencies still routinely abuse FOIA exemptions. They do that to withhold information that clearly should be available to the public. Agencies continue to exploit loopholes in the court system, which hides information from public scrutiny. But even worse, they fail to comply with transparency mandates that Congress imposed on them by statute. All of this needs to change. I'm not giving up on the fight. I'm working with Republicans and Democrats in both the Senate and the House. I'm drafting another bipartisan FOIA reform effort. One that would further strengthen our premier transparency law. I'm going to keep on working to come up with strong and bold legislation that actually has a real chance of passage in this Congress. I'll continue to fight for transparency. I'll do that. And for a more open government, I'll do that to the very last day of my Senate career. Now, I may not be participating next year's Sunshine Week event as a senator, but please know as a citizen, I'm always going to be with you in spirit. Your mission to make our government more accessible to the people, that's among the noblest of causes. After all, democracy is premised on the consent of the government. And the government simply cannot consent without knowing what the government is doing. Keep up the good work. Don't stop fighting this good fight. Please remember, there's always going to be a man named Patrick Leahy, whether or not he has the word senator before his name. There's always going to be in your corner, cheering you on. Thank you so much. Thank you, Senator Leahy. We very much appreciate your taking the time out of your busy congressional schedule to share your thoughts with us. Thank you to everyone who participated in today's event. And thank you to our virtual viewing audience for joining us for the special celebration of Sunshine Week at the National Archives. And thank you to the amazing OGIS staff who was instrumental in planning and executing this great afternoon, to special assistant to the archivist Barney McDonald, and to our special events and AD staff for ensuring that everything ran smoothly. If you would like to learn more about the work that OGIS does, please visit our website, archives.gov slash OGIS OGIS. Please read our blog, the FOIA ombudsman, and follow us on our Twitter handle at FOIA underscore ombuds. Thank you again for joining us for our Sunshine Week celebration, and we hope you will join us again next year.