 Can you hear that? You can hear that. Right. It doesn't change direction. So how does that work? It's something about how we see it as it went, I guess. Are you trying to find the closing? What are you guys talking about? I don't know. She's trying to explain this problem. Yeah. In five minutes or less. It's from a God messing with God, so that would make sense. So everything you need to know about God. I'll say this. Slytherin. That's it. You just did. You just did. Not until March. You have a whole month. I'm missing it. I'm just having so many technological difficulties right now. I thought maybe it's in Mercury. Does Mercury really move backward? It's a good question. No, it doesn't actually. You'll see that Mercury you're just saying I think we're good. Are we okay? Yes. We're just wasting time while we're waiting. We'll call the meeting to order. Test out our mics. Everything working okay? Any changes to the agenda? Item three is comments from the chair. Tonight we're going to have sustainable non-familiar collision presenting the various proposals that submitted entries for the what was the name of the contest part? Sustainable. There you go. Sustainable, non-familiar, 2030 design. He has competition. And we're going to be starting that at six o'clock. So we have a few minutes before then to address some of the other pieces that were loose ends that we have about ten minutes to talk through the list of items to take care of items. Moving on. I assume you're here for the sustainable non-familiar collision. But if you have comments on anything else that's not on the agenda tonight I invite you to come up and speak to me. Item five, which is the final punch list item for items to take care of. We should be able to prioritize. We might be able to. So the pieces that are missing for anyone who had from the email on Friday, the updated matrix has a couple of yellow ones that are left, two of which are actually the same thing. So there was number 15, which said a map needed to be developed to show the channelized areas of Urban Centers one, two, and three. I have not made that map yet. So that is one outstanding piece, although I'm going to have a hard time finding un-channelized sections based on how the DRV has been issuing decisions. Oh, I thought you were going to talk about the snow. No. It's just a lot of the place everyone was thinking. I mean, it's already been determined to be channelized for all of the north branch. So that kind of takes out, you know, then just leave just the Winooski. So I kind of just have to look to see where we might have places that are still not, don't have river walls. Winooski, but we'll see. I'll develop a map. The next one that isn't done yet is 18, which was developed a definition for painting studio. It shouldn't take me too long. I just finished, which I should mention. I emailed you guys late today, the strikeout version which has everything except for these yellow ones. So that's what I've been working on. So we have a matrix that said these are the changes to be made, but what we will actually be approving is the strikeout document, not the matrix. So that goes through and shows where all the changes were made. So it was 15, 18, 61. So 61, there actually is something that we could do which this 61 we did part of that was a recommendation to allow new neighborhoods and the proposal was to allow them in Western Gateway, Eastern Gateway, and Residential 24. We made a vote to put them into Western Gateway and Residential 24 and we never made a vote on Eastern Gateway either way. I recall that we just wanted to make sure we were very thoughtful about that process. I want to have a quick discussion about that now. I was the person who was hesitant about Eastern Gateway and I've been over there since then. I can't say that I have a strong opinion now, but I might want to hear thoughts about how you'd even sit in there. We have somebody who is interested in the Eastern Gateway because part of the country club roads in Eastern Gateway and they've considered doing some type. I don't think they're looking at new neighborhoods, but it certainly giving people options I think is fine if they're going to do a good project and they want to take advantage of the benefits that doing a PUD would offer. I don't see why it would be a bad thing, but I think that I recall your hesitancy being in part because we really want to encourage density in certain areas so we don't want to just stake encouraging density for certain areas for encouraging density everywhere. We want to be thoughtful about it. Is this really an area where we want to do that? It's not exactly walkable, so it would be like popular version of the suburban type of development. Is it along the rail line? It's a pretty big area. I mean there's a lot of areas out there. Route 302 is Eastern Gateway, the end part of Route 2, country club, kind of those areas. I think new neighborhood might be a little bit more of a challenge to fit in there, but if somebody had an idea to do that. They could feasibly, by long periods, they could feasibly get a density increase. What's the density set at? The density is pretty high. There's one unit per 5,000, so I bet they would have a lot of potential development. Is there any residential there now? Not a lot. There is some, right when you make the corner at the roundabout, there's an old hotel, and as you go around the corner, there's actually one that had apartments, I don't know if it's all converted to commercial or not. If you go a little bit farther, there's a single family, there's a home out there. But we also have some vacant lots, and the question comes up how would those get redeveloped and what would we be? But I think it would, I think it would be a challenge for somebody to take advantage of it. The question is if somebody came up with an idea. It's not, so the people who are interested are not necessarily interested? I don't think they're interested in a new neighborhood. They're interested in, I think they're more interested in cottage cluster type. Yeah, Gallison Hill is pretty industrial. I don't have a, you know, this isn't one I'm going to fall on my sword over with people. I don't think it's going to make a lot of sense then. Do you know where it starts as far as, like, when you're leaving town? Does it start at the roundabout? That district? Can you pull up the zoning map? I think it goes slightly around the corner. Yeah, it goes, the car dealership would still be in. That's a pretty steep slope on this side. And a lot of that would be in the 119, not the gateway. Most of it is, yeah. So 5-2. So it's really just, like across from the Agway? Yeah, Agway across from Agway. It's the biggest open space, right? Yeah, there's the place with the SKI tower. The side of the country club farthest from town. It's like the most open. Yeah, I think new neighborhood PUDs was contemplating larger parcels. I don't know if we're going to have parcels that would make that work, but like I said, there are a couple of ones that Well, I'm not hearing a lot of interest in allowing this PUD in this district right now. But this could be another item to table and to consider as we move through the city plan process and see if this makes sense. But for now, it doesn't sound like we have a strong feeling one way or the other. So I think we should leave things as status quo until we have a more broader discussion about where we want to make changes. Does that sound good? Because this is a concern just that we don't want maybe we don't want residential development in this eastern gateway. I mean, I would be supportive of including the eastern gateway, I guess I don't concern because I'd rather have development here versus like East Montpelier. It's still closer in to me, even if it's not totally walkable. And I think the cross Vermont trail, I don't know hopefully connecting that. If we want to table it, I'm not passionate about it. There's already some residential that's allowed there, right? Yeah, residential is allowed there. Whether this PUD would be allowed there. Yeah, the density is one long unit for 5,000. Yeah, it seems that if we already allow it, I think part of our discussions for the plan is that there's no real strong vision for this part of Montpelier, which is an honor to do this to figure out what this is going to be. Do you have, if this is our industrial zone of district, do you have some of that infrastructure supporting it? We should create an environment that's going to be conducive to that. Without a clear vision of what it should be, it's hard to make decisions about what we should or shouldn't lie to them. That's not helpful. No, that's helpful. I agree. So we'll table it. Western Gateway. Yes, the Western Gateway, which includes part of national life and residence 24. So the last two, maybe last two, 83, 84, so we're back to, I need a definition of the painting studio, which I already have, so I actually have two of them telling me the same thing. At definition of change of use, I actually was going through things I found out I actually already had the definition of change of use, but I did add in a quick statement on to include additions to, including an addition of a dwelling unit into that definition. I handed that out. It's also in what I emailed today. I just printed out that one page. I don't know if you guys wanted to have a broader discussion of change of use, but it actually was in the definition section. But you're just modifying it with the... Yeah, because we had a question. We had a concern about the fact that our use table says one and two unit and three and four unit. And if we define the use as say three and four units, if somebody goes from three to four units, is that a change of use? Technically, no. It's the use is three and four units, but we actually do want to have them get permits for it. So we wanted to be clear one option was to break the use table into four lines, one unit, two unit, three unit, and four unit, and then five and up. The other one was to just go and add that to the change of use definition to go through and say, well, adding... it's a change of use. And therefore it's not a change of use on the use table, but it is a change of use because of it's a change in the intensity of the use. A four unit building has more intensity than the three unit building, and that's our justification for having you get a permit to change that use. I think this is a bigger discussion, a long discussion, but I think more than I want to get started on the sustainable, non-filial coalition. And we have a couple items to touch on at the next meeting on the next anyway. So I propose that we push this conversation about a four line next meeting. The last one was 131. And that's one I don't have yet, which was to do a strikeout version for the enforcement. And so that's going to be more substantial. So those were all the yellow ones. So we have made decisions on actually one other one. So we'll I'll get you the painting studio definition. I will get you a map and I will get you the strikeout version of the enforcement. So those are the last things I owe for you guys. Well, and we have notes that 125 was brought up to me last time. Including three in full residential use. So we decided that that's another broader policy item to discuss as part of the city plan discussion. We made a vote to make no change. So leaving it for now. There's one more item for this package that we need to wrap up, which is our memo that Cherubian Barb has been working on. The quick version is we met and I'm going to make some changes and send Barb a draft and she can tell me whether it's something she wants to sign on to or not. And we discussed if that doesn't work out that way we might end up having to send to and move forward that way. We also had an idea to discuss about the other slope change we made about giving the DRV just talking as a commission about giving the DRV maybe a standard to apply for situations where they're having to decide whether they're going to allow construction on a 30% greater slope, but maybe there's some land available that's flat and so that that change of ours is not pushing development unnecessarily on the slopes because when you combine that with the density change we're doing here, we don't think any of us want to allow greater density and then have that density put on slopes. So some checks on that side of it, which I think would assuage some of Barb's concerns, but that's a greater discussion and the memo discussion is also a greater discussion, so I don't have anything for us to look at right now. I drafted another version of the memo based on what we came to before and gave it to Kirby and asked him to make some comments on it, so I don't think we're that far away, but you know Kirby might think otherwise. Do you think you'll have a draft of one or two memos? However many memos we need to consider before the next meeting. If you could distribute it before the meeting we can all review it and discuss it in the meeting. I mean I have a draft that I could agree with now, so it's really up to you Kirby. Yeah, I'll send Barb something this week and then she can get back to me, but we'll have something at the next meeting. So we'll, I mean the map for channelized rivers is something that, will we have that? Or is that longer? The map for the channelized? I should be able to get to that. I just spent a lot of time on that strikeout version, so I didn't get time to count it. It's okay, I just want to get a sense of who we are. Yeah, I should have something at least something that we can start to discuss and debate as to, you know, really we just need to get something on the ground and have people start to discuss whether they agree or don't agree with it. Great, so we have item 15, item 18 slash 83, which is the painting studio definition 84 and 131 and our memo about steep slopes slash, I'm sorry, buildable area as far as the density population. So that's what I have on my list for the next meeting. Good. Okay, pass on the punch list mic or... Nope, I think that's it. Okay, so the next item on the agenda is to discuss the upcoming adoption process for zoning. We need to vote to set a date for the public hearing. I'm kind of getting a sense of the timeline track that we're on right now. Yeah. So that's just going to need the standard, we have to have at least 30 days. So whatever day we finally approve this and have that strikeout version complete because that's what we will use as our vote then it'll be 30 days to have that public hearing and then we can decide at that point based on public input whether we want to forward it to City Council or have another public hearing, reconsider for those who went through the process before this was the part you have the public hearing, you think, ah, we're ready to go have the public hearing then you get a bunch of input and you're like, alright, well make this tweak or that tweak and we're back to warning another public hearing, but maybe it's something because these are mostly zoning fixes that this is one that we can go through the public hearing and move it to City Council, but it'll be 30 days from whenever we have a draft ready to go. So I had that on the agenda in case this was ready to go and we punched it out today and had it done we could have it on every agenda going forward until we have it. Because we can't touch it if we don't have it on the agenda, so we'll just put it on there. Okay, great, thank you. Yep. Alright, so I'd like to invite Dan Jones up to give us a presentation on behalf of Sustainable Moffillier Coalition and I understand Dan has some overhead We have a, yes, we'll have to see whether this decides or... Pretty bright now, so that's good. For anyone who's commenting, the only speakers that are on are the speakers that are up here, so if you have something to say, you'll have to come up so we can catch you on the mic or you won't be heard. Look on TV like you're yelling at us, standing over the table. Okay, hi I feel like I'm sort of coming to give you an introduction to some ideas we began broaching with you back in September, but there seems to be a large number of new faces here, so hi, I'm Dan Jones I'm the Executive Director of the Sustainable Moffillier Coalition We arose out of a process that started with a design competition for what could be a sustainable future for Moffilliers that completed two years ago last month. Okay, so in that competition we have a bunch of interesting ideas we thought we'd offer you as part of your planning for the new master plan, city plan Is there a way of getting the lights off over the... There are two options, the lights are on or the lights are off Oh, okay, no The new projector works much better than the old one We'll get the back lights on, never mind It's not switched that way, but some time it will work that way Okay, so where we started was back in 2014 when the Energy Committee, which I was the Chair of at the time led to the point where it said we're going to be net zero city by 2050, 2030 maybe and started a bunch of innovations or grew out of innovations that actually led that way, which include the district plant, the new city solar farms where we now have a megawatt of generating capacity specifically to the city We've been educating citizens on energy efficiency and we even were so good that we were on the ten finalist cities for the Georgetown University energy prize, which was an honorific that was actually quite fun to be part of, we're not quite sure why we were one of the ten finalists, but we were they took into account the fact that we were actually making strides so the big new solar plant, etc, made a difference All of our work did not look at was the issue of what is the biggest carbon sink in our lifestyle, which is the automobile, so a little city of 8,000 has a traffic jam at 4.30 in the afternoon, and what we really discovered looking around was there were acres and acres of parking lot, so I managed to actually get a copy of a drone image of downtown and ended up making this map, so all the red on there is off street parking for Montpelier, I'm sure some of you have seen this before, but it's really a very interesting use of our landscape where this should be theoretically the most valuable and interesting real estate in town that is dedicated to the parking of the automobile and it also meant that we had actually land use and energy use is a very curious combination you don't talk about land use, you can't really talk about energy use, what we've been doing for 60 years is spreading out upon the hillsides and becoming a commuter city rather than a dense downtown, I mean if you look at 110 years ago this is kind of what downtown Montpelier looked like with a lot of housing, commercial space, etc, a nice railroad station down there in the middle of somewhere about where the new transportation center is supposed to be and this actually is the most energy efficient form of use of the real estate so we started asking the question how do we do a transition to a sustainable city local future for a small city and we knew that while we'd like to have young people coming here, this is downtown Burlington, they tend to be less car oriented than we are they like bicycles, they like getting around in other ways, they don't want to be as dependent on the car but there's no place for them to live unless you are car dependent in town so we started looking at this in terms of sustainability which starts with more people living in town, downtown housing equals less commuting and shared energy resources like heat and electric but to do that we've got to create some ways of getting people in and out of town in other ways than their personal car which will free up the land and reduce our oil demand and that will allow us to recapture our riverfront and green space which means more recreation, flood mitigation quality of life, etc so to do the first one we actually have to do the second one first and we want to build a people centered local future but the question is how? so I was talking with a friend showing her that red map, down in Boston who is an expert in design and has worldwide connections and she said you know this is the kind of problem that young designers really enjoy so what we'd like is, what you really ought to do is have a design competition and I said okay how do you have a design competition with some guidance from some people including Barbara I have to say so was helping this as an architect we managed to raise some money to have a thousand dollar prize for the best design and put it out there and we got 20 actual entries from around the world and not only did we have them from Vermont we had them from all over the country, we had them from Japan, we had them from Iran even we had them from Sweden so she was right this is something that actually young designers were interested in and it created this fact now we had the designs or the proposed designs and we set up across the street at one more time a little pop-up gallery for a week and hung all of these designs and had people come in and we were amazed folks were coming in, they were sending serious time looking at the designs, talking about them, thinking about them it was actually fascinating to watch the kind of level of conversation and the consideration which is we always have this issue of designs and getting public input and this was a really strong bit of public input so people put their comments in and they had well what is that telling me okay and we had a voting okay so you vote for the best five okay and I don't know why this is doing it but it's so we got it down to five finalist choices and we that's where we had two years ago the final presentation of those five designs and you're seeing them here I'm going to give you a chance to take a look at them a little bit in a minute it's not your stuff it's the machine so we had the final presentation over at the pavilion here we have the Swedish team making a presentation via Skype which was kind of neat that they had made it to the finalist and the audience we filled the pavilion there was over 200 people sitting there in rapt attention kind of amazing actually they took notes they were actually really interested in what was going on the whole ideas and again a second round of voting we also had voting online voting at city hall so we tried to engage as many people as possible and had over 750 votes cast and we thought that was pretty neat because we were watching how people were responding to this the winning design was team bridges so they won in terms of the five way vote there were a lot of votes for the other ones so it was not a slam dunk and then we a few days later had an award ceremony up at the state house where we got the governor and the mayor to come and receive the design give the big check to team bridges now the guy on the far right is Jay Ansel he was the lead designer he also was the head of black river design over here and I will suggest to you that you invite him and his team in or to give you a presentation on exactly what they are I'm going to try and give you an overview of what was going on but they would probably love to make a presentation to you as well so we still had a challenge did anybody go to the Ed McMahon presentation last March that Ed McMahon who was one of the smart growth advocates in the country a guy who actually cares about this stuff line we love from him is planning is important but implementation is priceless so we still had this design idea but how do we get them actually made into facts on the ground which is the big question so a year and a half ago we formed net zero Vermont had done the competition net zero Vermont wanted to keep out of statewide focus and a couple of people behind me said well okay we've got to do something that's specific to so we created the sustainable Montpelier coalition this is our opening ceremony and at the reception a little rainstorm came through and left us with this rainbow so we took it as a positive sign that something good was going to come out of this and I'm going to stop here for leave you with it though okay all of these designs okay the workbooks all of them are available at netzerovt.org slash finalist and I encourage you to take a look what I'm going to try and do is give you an overview of some of them tonight but it's a wonderful site so you can have all of the materials online immediately and it's kind of fascinating so what I'd like to invite you to do is take a few minutes and take a look at the boards of the designs surrounding us so that for a minute before we come back and go into the next step if you would if you don't want to you don't have to but I thought that this would be interesting for you let's talk about that so what is that about this that I don't know I can't remember somebody was talking about trying to figure out what was the hiccup it just periodically gets a thing going in it it pops out and pops back in it always comes back so we haven't worried about it too much but I've only been at two meetings this is the second time I've seen this used so and I thought last time maybe it was just something with the connection but now that it's doing it here too it must be something with that something with that and the signaling because yeah before somebody's got a wire that's not fully plugged in I'll let Seth know and let him take a work on it it doesn't fix it's always the most expected it's going to fit so it's really not that thank you so this was the show us say okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay yeah yeah I think so. What is the gondola? Huh? What is the gondola? What is the gondola? Just buy some stuff. It's about some stuff. David just bought one. I don't know if he has found one. He's bought one. But it's a new bow. They want to do one of those. They're good. You can see like four cards. And it was a return. Two cards. We're good. Good. From a skier, right? Yeah. Did you have a chance to get a change? Yeah. Everybody gets them shots. I think they just send them a picture. Yeah. I'm not an example. I'm not an example. I'm not an example. I'm not an example. He did not have to break all my favored cards. I'm not an example. I think that's a good example. This one does not look clean enough. Not too many to buy. That's pretty slim. This is pretty small, at least. Any of them here? No. That's where they play. Right now, of course, it goes in those drawers. That's the most probable. Right. Yes. That's amazing. Unless it was some other way that would assist to the people who convenient that place. Oh, okay. Drampolines. The description. Can they get into that? But these two are the ones that talk about police. Oh, is that a few of them got rid of it, had a hotel tour? Yeah, I just didn't know if they'd relocate it in the same place else, but it's in the house. Find something with that score. Maybe a judge house. We can write for this. You notice that there's really no billage. We're trying to be safe for some of these people. Yeah. We're just going to put a picture over it. See if we can relate. Yeah. Yeah. The blank slate. Yes. They have a keyboard. They have a keyboard. There was that side. Which one do you want? Right here. Well, but these guys. And the work on line is of this. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, yeah. They need a lot of what the controversy there was. This was pretty clear. I had here. Oh. They didn't go that far back? Yeah. This is. Oh, another bite. This is the one where they're in here. Right here. In terms of the lines. I was just wondering if we could understand the whole process. That they are? That's right, yeah. They're great. They're really interesting. So that's why we're looking at the high points. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to know what they've said. Oh. Without that political comment. How do you re-manage the streets. No, we should reconvene. Because we can look at the scale of this one. All right. Planning commissioners, we should have a seat. I have a seat. Do you have more for this? Are you going to use the screen right now? Yes. No, no, no, no. I don't have a script. I just look at the screen and talk about what's going on. No, no, we're good. Yeah. Okay. How do you wake it up? I woke it up. All right, so we provided you a little handout here where we started with five areas, vision, compact walkable city transportation, and then we basically tried to gang these with, you know, your city plan report that you guys have published and the current one, and tried to use that as a basis to start looking at stuff. And then finally we have ideas that are within the various plans that here so that you can reference it now. But I'll try and go on and give you an idea of, you know, so the vision is maintain the historic path. All right, fine. Follow the smart growth principles, increase housing and jobs. Put the slide, oh, economic development. Yeah. So if you look, you know, so these are some of the slides from the finalist presentation. Hopefully they'll keep playing. So one of the teams and the Swedish team in the loop had this idea of an integrated approach. I don't know what to do. It's blinking. All right. So this is one of the steps toward the plan that you see there. The bridges plan, you've had a chance to look at and sort of talk about this as, you know, the whole idea of the larger city working with the idea of a link throughout the city by rail that connects things. So it changes the land use concept based on transportation. Part of the vision. I like this one, this one with the neighborhood concepts where it was taking downtown rather than larger neighborhoods that you were talking about earlier. It takes smaller ones. So for instance, here around the north branch, okay, we have actually a new neighborhood emerging. Okay, because you've got the French block housing, you've got the new transit center, et cetera, and you've got the church talking about housing in there. So that actually now creates a residential neighborhood to think about it. And so what they've done is thought about ideas where there could be one back at the pit, in other words, which could be a combination of housing and parking. You know, development. You know, I'm trying here. And you thought you had mercury retrograde. I don't know what I did, but it's obviously it doesn't like me. Should we try turning it off and on again? Do you think or do you? It's always a different thing to try. Right. We can try it and see if it's too hard to kick. So anyway, going through some of the vision things that come from a number of the things, which I'm just going to sort of throw out at you. If you have questions, comments, et cetera, please don't feel free to just stop me. But, you know, part of what were common to a number of these was a reduced vehicle and increased pedestrian acid for the city to embrace its riverfront rather than ignore it. Public spaces, you know, recreation quality of life are part of the downtown. Open space. Public arts. What do you think? Okay, fine. Population growth by saying, okay, we'd like to have an idea of maybe increasing the population by 2,000 people, which could be done with 1,000 new units if we're taking two people per unit. River access. It'd be nice to be able to get access to the river. There's nowhere actually downtown to get river access. Buildings, and a number of them go into this, so it's not just because there are architects in other ways, is they're durable. They're compatible with the net zero goals. Okay? You've got to take into account the floods. You know, river buildings have to be raised on plinths. Not all of them had this, but that's one of the things. Several of them had ways of having the year-round farmers market. Four seasons in our public spaces. Creating a city identification with sustainability in net zero. This is something a couple of them brought up. In essence, it becomes a marketing tool for Montpelier, just like we got the Georgetown Energy Prize. This is something young people and others are looking for right now. It is an area that we could make an area of strength if we had the zoning and the plan and stuff to move forward on. A couple had new services, hotels, conference centers, food hub. So did this dial together? It doesn't like me. I have to take it not as a... Oh, there it goes. It's coming back. So those are some of the visionary pieces that are possible within this, you know, several of them had net zero ideas where you change the architecture largely completely, but also create public spaces. I don't know, it just doesn't like me. It's okay, I'm going to... Just going to flash, that's all. Okay, so others of your goals are like compact, walkable city. You know, we need housing close to the city center. You know, reinforce and expand traditional patterns of development. We're working on the multimodal transit center, but is it multimodal or is it a bus station? You know, and that's a question. So this is some of the ideas that came up in the... Maybe that's...what do you think? Is that better? Yeah. It's not working. We can also just see them all around. Yeah, we'll see them all around. All right, you know... Unfortunately, you'll have to excuse me a second while I get it into another mode here because it has to go out of... The air is human, but to really screw up, you need a computer. It's hard to set the mouse. Come on. Now it's doing what? Oh, all right. Do you want to put it maybe on top of the other one? I don't know if you'll be able to see it, but if you... Well, I will stand off to the side and use my little clicker. You're going to have to move around a little bit, but I'm... So you want to put it on top of this one? Well, if you move it forward, then less of us can see it. All right. You're going to want to leave it there. All right. Hopefully this will now decide to work. We never know until it... So this is one of the designs that shows the idea of the open space opening up the downtown. All of them basically tried to open up along the river, okay? Creating different kinds of walkways so that, you know, if we're talking a walkable city, this one had covered walkways to, you know, imagine getting around downtown. Okay, this one, you know, basically mixed-use neighborhoods, okay, with, you know, looking at the walkability of various areas. That, you know, that's out of this one where they're, you know, creating and proposing different neighborhoods around. That one in the Pioneer District is about as far as it goes, right? Yeah. This one is interesting. They're called strainer streets, okay, which is a mixture of the streets and actually getting the water channel rather than using the traditional sewer system as trying to keep the water channelized and working in rain... You know, the rain parks the ways of processing the water, so it's part of the walkability of the... and the experience of the whole city rather than just doing everything downtown. Okay, so few of the others in there were, you know, housing and green ribbons along the river. You can see that in a number of them. Streetcar line to new neighborhoods in Berry, you know, gold increase population without more vehicles. That was the whole idea of having a more walkable... You know, I thought it was interesting the accessible indoor covered pedestrian path linking buildings. You know, you think it's weird, but if you've ever been to, like, Minneapolis or St. Paul, where they actually have... You can walk the entire downtown without ever going outside with these linked things. And in midwinter there, you know, I'm not saying we're going to do that, but it's just interesting. What we had in several of them are, you know, were paths to connect, you know, and this is where the workbooks help you to see this if you want to, connecting on and off street spaces, closed streets. Several of them suggested, you know, either Langdon Street closed or a loop of Langdon and State as a kind of church street marketplace for Montpelier. What... Was the suggestion to close altogether just a pedestrian traffic or just pedestrian traffic? Except for what, like, they do in church street, which is you're going to have trucks on until 10 in the morning doing deliveries and stuff. You know, you can't close it together. You know, they have to get the supplies and stuff into the stores. Okay. And that also said, you know, we need more activities. This is not part of your job for younger demographic. Oops. Okay. Transportation, obviously, is one of the... Wait, just to pick the back up on my music. The suggestions encourage more activities that would attract a younger demographic will help achieve some of the broader goals of bringing in more population. That's what I was saying. What you see in several of them was a suggestion that by having a sense that this was a place that young people could be. It's like there is a great deal of interest in the new bike trails up above North Branch, okay? That's that kind of activity for one group. It's not going to be my demographic that's going to care for it, but there are, you know, if we have the ability to access the river, you know, and have canoeing, kayaking, et cetera, on the river, you know, it creates a different sense of the downtown. It's recapturing the river. So a lot of them basically are working on the idea of refacing recapturing the river so that it becomes part of our lifestyle downtown, as opposed to what we've sort of turned our back on. We've got parking lots that go right up to the edge. It's not a... Well, I do think that we can try to keep that in mind as we work on the plan. I think that makes sense. Well, that's why we're trying to talk to you. We think you have a lot of latitude in that if you wanted to look at it. Okay, so we want convenient smart transit systems. Now, this is one of our sustainable and not peolier's big goals, and I'm going to talk about what's going on for a second because we have done two things in the past six months that have proved to be kind of interesting. We realize in building coalition, you bring people together. It's not like we're doing this by ourselves. We're too small, et cetera, but we can convene people to talk about it. So we did a discussion roundtable on transportation up at National Light back in September. Had the major employers in town, city counselors. We had the downtown, the Monterey alive. We had the planning, the economic development people, other representatives. And out of that, one of the presentations we'd organized was from a company that does something called Microtransit, On-Demand Microtransit, and you're going to hear more about this soon. On-Demand Microtransit is basically a marriage of small buses and an Uber type of software where you can dispatch them in a way that has them responding to demand. So it's nine o'clock in the morning or eight thirty in the morning. You have a bunch of people who like to get downtown to work. You have others who want to get to national life. Others might want to get up to the hospital. And the computer knows that some people want to go here, other people want to go there because you put it in the request and you can call it in, you can put it on the smartphone. And different buses will pick you up even if you're next door with each other. It's not like one bus going around doing it because one will be directed to go up to the hospital and another one will go to national life, etc. So it's the most efficient way of collecting people and keeping them moving. And this is something that has been developing over the past couple of years. So we had a presentation on this and actually the people at V-Trans who were there at the thing said, well, this is very interesting. So they actually organized a working group to explore it and named us the Sandoval-Mapelier Coalition as their community partner in this. And so we have a couple of city counselors, Barbara. We have people from the Center for Independent Living. We have seniors, etc., all meeting at V-Trans to look at whether this is possible, okay, as a way. Because if you can imagine, if we could get 500 people, there are 500 people, state employees, who live in Mapelier and drive down to work. There are actually 1,300 people who live in Mapelier and commute to downtown to work. So a good part of your parking is actually taken up with people who live here. Of course there are the people from Barrie, there's the people from other places. But just talking about what happened, we're only interested in what happens here. So that's why we're interested in this as an approach because what it would allow is us to rethink the land use because we could work with the state and say, well, if we can get 150 people using this, could we get this piece of property to develop along the river? Because part of our goal is also to reclaim the riverfront. And you can't do that as long as you've got the parking lots going right up to the riverfront. It's a whole new way of trying to... So the fact is the state is... We're working with the state, the state is committed to having a white paper out within the transit administration, transportation administration by the end of March with the hope of maybe if some federal transit administration money is available having a pilot project start by the end of summer, if not in 2020, where this would replace, in essence, the circulator, the capital shuttle, the hospital shuttle, and would actually provide services on an on-demand basis rather than a fixed route fixed schedule. So that's why it's called microtransit because it's like seven or eight passenger vans, although it would have a couple that will be larger and wheelchair accessible that can be used for people with special needs and start reinventing what might be local transit. Couple that with the idea of a train, which almost all of them had some version of light rail because they saw the rail going through town. This one was the most fully developed but it was not the only one which was to connect different parts of the city with a light rail system. So that was a common one and making a room for that kind of thinking in your future planning would be very useful. So here are some of the... So here's where most of the parking is now. State employees take up a good portion of it. One of the ideas was to look at this... These are walking paths to be developed, walking and bike paths. You know, as a whole plan. This is part of an idea of basically being able to recapture the whole south of State Street area as a pedestrian-centric development as opposed to auto-centric. This one's very interesting in terms of bike paths and other paths to connect different parts of the... Could there be a path that goes from, in essence, the nature center into town? Could there be a path? You've got the one bike path sort of started but could there be others and could that become a major feature? I had a young man talk to recently who was so interested by these plans coming up that he was going back to Holland where he had been working because he's a bike fanatic and wanted to be a part of the place and he said, you know, actually, maybe this could happen here so he's going to stay around and that's interesting. The... Okay, this one, again, is connecting... This is the larger one where we use the railroad to connect the various nodes developed in town. See, again, this is their version of the transit center. You can see it in here. They didn't look at the design that was... You know, but as you can see, the tracks are part of that. So this is an area where you see... That was a common theme. It was developed differently by each one but it's something to start thinking about. So others have said, well, you know, we can have a streetcar, you know, add rail service to the multimodal center. Okay, that will bring it multimodal. Right now it's only a bus station. You know, others want electric tram on removed parking lanes, okay, on state and main as a possibility or a people mover light rail. The idea of shared car share vehicles, bike share, et cetera, was brought up whether that's in your province or not is not an issue but it is something that could be developed if it was safer. Okay, a lot of bikes of bliss I've talked to do not feel exactly safe on the streets right now. The bike share is the bike taxi thing where you... No, it's like you go to Boston or you go to Montreal and you can rent a bike to... You know, Conor Casey thinks you can do it all with a scooter. I'm not sure that that's the appropriate... But that's the idea. Car share would be the same. If you had this microtransit system we're talking about, you could imagine a system where we had brought back car share, only more of them. One of the problems with the car share was you had to have a car to get downtown to get to the car share. If we could get here elsewhere and people were giving it up and say oh well I have to go visit my grandchildren in Randolph, you could go get the car share for the day and go to Randolph or you could go to Lebanon and bring it back and return to... So rather... And there's a huge economics for this because I don't know if you know that AAA says in Vermont it costs $9,000 a year on average to keep a car on the road. So if we could price the microtransit in general for somewhere a third of that where you could have the same convenience without owning a car that might be a real attraction if you will. So we've actually put out the first RFI on the microtransit and there has then got four responses, two of which were real, so the state is actually excited about this possibility. Okay, now rivers in green space. We've got a problem in so far as again we've turned our back on the river. Okay, we've sort of lost that as a feature. Every city in the country that really wants to do smart development embraces its rivers, so it's time to start thinking about that and I think this is in your ballpark to some degree. This gives us natural features, vistas, air and water protection, wildlife, plus a lot of public access to recreational opportunities, whether it's walking along the water, boating, resting, you know, one friend Elizabeth back here had done a found a picture, you know, a sad picture before the construction started over here, somebody, you know, when a business came downtown with their lunch and kind of sitting, you know, on this rock that kind of overlooked the river, you know, on a sort of sad because there was no nice way to actually be close to the river, so that is something that could be so, you know, this is what the river the confluence of the north branch and the Winooski look like now, it's not inviting you know, but one had, you know, basically created a whole park you know by the river where the river could actually flood in and become a skating rink and a wading pool using Winooski water and others, as you can see always the green space along here is recaptured and almost all of these that one there again, creating a whole circulation of the river where you can experience the river in multiple means one thing I'm noticing is none of them acknowledged the gas stations other side of the river they're just wanted to keep everyone's acknowledged they're basically saying you could do better right, well, I agreed but I just want to point that out potentially moving those services to the satellite lots would be more appropriate anyway so that those would actually potentially be located as well and further away from the water I mean the job is in planning is does things just stay the way they are or do you imagine other ways of doing it and should they be there but that's and I think one of the discussions we had about zoning when I first started and we were rewriting we've been rewriting this for years but when we first started there was a discussion about what we wanted to do for allowing uses in the area that we called quote-unquote gaseous valley and I had just joined and I wasn't really sure how to express my dissatisfaction that the gas stations were just right on the river I think that's something we can reexamine not to say we should close down those gas stations but we could make it a migration plan exactly mention that because this I mean these are idealistic plans obviously they're idealistic plans that's why I said this is sort of an upper level view to give you some ideas that you might think about in a going forward plan that would be a little more imaginative exciting etc and so that's all we're doing we're talking about reclaiming the river reclaiming the river we're talking about reclaiming the river you know here's another one with decided to take out Shaw's and put a conference center in well maybe but notice again here's a that space where the old blind and the Moai property that's reclaimed as a park in there now you know so it becomes in essence a gateway park there as you're coming in main street etc so there's another possibility to think about that one this is confluence park in there so this one has merry-go-round the farmers market under a permanent roof okay and you can see people pulling their kayaks into the river down here it's what it could be on a postcard very enjoyable I think it was in ads against the parking garage I have promised my board that I'm not taking a position so but on that note since I brought that up a lot of these seem to actually be compatible with what's being put in there because a lot of the green ribbons like you mentioned the word ribbons which is a good term for this other side of the tracks so that's still a possibility oh it's your board wake up yeah that's true Kirby it's still that area on the other side of the tracks is pretty well developed in most of them not necessarily for a parking garage but it's shown as a development but then the other one serves a garage somewhere oh yeah no I will get into that in a second okay that's another part of this sorry we're getting ahead of you what? we're so excited we're getting ahead of you no I'm happy to give you whatever you want I'm just showing this is the one that has the entire sort of south side of state street as a separate driverless neighborhood okay public green spaces so all of them in essence address the public green space you can walk around Montpellier and say that's where is it is the state house along the only green space in town so the other thing about riverfront access and this one I wish I could blow up for you because it's very interesting to have this by the way available to you if you want to have it for the record we'll have we're creating a website where we're going to put in use it as a repository for all the ideas that we're kicking around so this would be great it's all on there it's all been on there for like six months okay it's already there one day we'll start planning around one day you'll start putting stuff on it but it's there for a long time the entry it's already there I've been asking to start the city plan for six months but we just talked about zoning go ahead I thought you got it John I'll let you take over the thing we're just trying to get you John wasn't persuasive enough we needed to bring you in he's not shaming you just be clear we're the edge now we can start exactly so what this is an interesting representation of is the flood way okay so you have to then consider and whatever you're doing and several of them did actually address this which was anything that you do within the flood way needs to take consideration of do they have to be raised up so that you're not sitting there with the assumption of being flooded it's like any new development has to well that's the 100 year flood okay so we actually have to then pay attention you know this is the red line is what downtown with the 100 year flood okay so that's got to be part of the consideration you can there are ways of doing it but it requires raising things up having common space kind of commercial space common space storage space in the flood way but you cannot have living space okay so we start we will want to get to the point where housing was of course going to be a part of this equation because if you want new people if you want to get the people on the hillside's etc they have to be somewhere to live half a percent vacancy rate in town that's a challenge you know I'm not telling you guys anything you don't know but the question is you know how do we have safe affordable diverse housing you've got ideas of duplexing old homes allowing infill and cluster that's what you know what this was looking at was how do we do it within in essence these concentrated areas so notice here the idea was okay we could have housing here on the other half where the tax department is you know or back here on court street okay they were looking at a variety of places in town where housing could be considered well you brought those two ideas up I have a question maybe for Mike most of the things that were just mentioned there seemed like really great ideas doing something next to 133 state and also doing something with the pit and court street but they would require partnering with the city is it appropriate for the planning commission to reach out and start talking to the I mean work with the state start talking to the state about partnership things or is that more like the city managers role usually the partnership stuff comes through the city manager we would be looking for is to propose some development themes to start working towards you know we're going to have to come up with a land use plan or come up with plan policies and goals of what we're looking for and then we can we could plan to work with the state but we probably shouldn't in the meantime we probably wouldn't be doing the outreach but we do want to have the discussion of all of the components so when you know council makes a recommendation they've thought about the you know would this be a good idea for us to do that means we as the planning commission may study whether from a transportation standpoint you know there's a lot of discussion about putting a big parking garage and putting a bunch of development in the pit all the transportation studies will tell you you can't put a parking garage in the pit it just messes up every intersection that's down there all the studies have said if you're going to do a parking garage you have to do it in the Jacobs lot where you have to do it in the Capital Plaza lot because it has easy access back to the highway for efficient moving so before we have a manager or a council look at building a parking garage say we would probably go through and just go and determine whether that's a good idea and then they would go out and actually do it there are other places on state or at the labor law etc where would not be the same yeah we're an idea may not have been considered yet but I think we wouldn't necessarily reach out to the state I think we would go and determine whether it's a good idea how does it fit into the land use plan how does it fit into all of the other pieces we would bring that to council and council says that's a great idea might go and study it it's kind of the same way with the railroad idea you know do we or do we not work on the railroad I think as a planning commission we come up with a policy that goes and says we think this is a good idea needs more study we recommend to city council that we study it and then you know then I can as staff get to work studying it and if we find it's a viable idea then we start working with okay what are the barriers who do we have to do you seem like the foundation pieces for our entire city plan because so much hinges on parking and transportation solutions and if we choose to put the wrong things in the city plan things that are looked at later and are thought of as you know not worthwhile or not plausible then we build up our city plan on that idea so I don't know that's what's kind of in my mind that's why you're here so this one is just an idea from the Swedes of housing where it's built up so again the bottom floor is up on concrete plinths but the top part is actually rather than concrete etc and brick is a wood construction it turns out there's a lot of increases in essentially scant an avian in some place in America where wood is now actually for large scale structures such as this an acceptable medium because there's been new ways of bonding wood of constructing with it that actually provides the strength necessary to make this kind of stuff happen so and that of course would be very good for Vermont because then you could be using local it's not like you're having to import mahogany to make it happen it can be done with you know this is where oh yeah so this was the idea that they're they had in here that Pioneer Street could also be a new area for housing development that hadn't been looked at before that encouraging it and there becomes a way of getting it getting some new housing capacity relatively proximate to downtown another version of in essence in Court Street this is minimal parking underneath and more appropriate housing appropriate for the architecture of the area where the pit is you know there is parking in the pit so it's not like it's not a parking area the question is what level of parking do you want there and I think that's where curvy was you know your point as well taken which is we might not be able to do anything with it if the state or the federal because I believe some of it's federal you know it's mainly the state you're not going to get the post office but you know that's the most of it is actually owned by Vermont Mutual so what actually they would be now if they could be convinced something in the work they were also always looking for investment opportunities so is there anything downtown that's not specifically on Madison is going to have that problem anything inside for downtown even the two garage projects that we talked about one was Capital Plaza one was Jacobs one is owned by the Bechara family one is owned by the Jacobs family the state happens to be the biggest the state's the elephant in the room there's a lot of things we can look at though in terms of policy levers like right now we think of like land value taxation so right now like Liberty Mutual they took down buildings on Court Street and their taxes were lowered right so the less we invest in private citizen investment downtown the lower their property tax even though our infrastructure is exactly the same so that's start creating some economic incentives actually building things and then things might get built right so we decide what we want and what's possible and then we can create that what? no I haven't imposed the land taxation to our like fake municipal plan again this is the one where the neighborhood idea we're showing where you could have you know again it's basically trying to figure out a deal with the state to get you know access there's really only about 700 parking spots from Bailey Avenue down to number two Taylor so it's there are ways of thinking about trying to trade those off if we can get other people into town in other ways they're all state employee parking lots of course again this is another version of the Court Street you know I'm not pushing any one of these I'm just saying this is the kind of thinking that was going into all of this so it was you know giving them a defined area of pretty much the downtown created a way for a lot of ideas to come forth out of this which was great this one was sort of fun because again it took that idea of a park on the east of the Gateway Park here but also creating an art space in here rather than parking a lot now that's Jacob's property so there'd have to be some way but you know again riverfront okay activating the riverfront you know if anybody's actually gone behind the propane tanks and stuff it's actually kind of a pretty part of the north branch down in there if it was accessible you know so that's just another way of looking at this so now we get to parking right we know it's everybody's favorite thing so you know how do we do it does it include satellite parking garages surface parking okay but you know what's the whole way we we know there could be satellite parking the city knows it but we know is it doing anything about it you know for instance there's a whole lot up where the old Brown Derby was that was supposed to be considered but it's nothing's happening with it there are other places that so this is where we've had ideas you know including the vaunted garage down there plus some court street plus over here behind 133 state you know what they're proposing is you could take 403 spots in these area and turn it into 590 spots in those areas so it's a you know so it is a centralization recapturing land so that's one approach that is was considered this is an interesting one this is a idea of a plinth where you literally rather than digging down into the river bank you build up from it and then you create green space on top of it and you have parking if it floods it floods in there and you're still above the floodway as one approach whether you like particularly the buildings on top of it it is another way of considering how we could have combination parking and development within that area because the river is always a the flooding is always a consideration and global warning tells us it will come back to haunt us at some point would that actually perhaps help us in terms of soil mitigation of that area sure is contaminated we could just leave it there you just leave it you basically seal it and come above it it's adding additional fill in the floodplain it's adding fill in the floodplain which is not typically ideal we probably have to you're really imagining the whole thing yes there's the karmicore of engineers and all the rest that have to go through but I believe the engineering is possible Stephanie works in hazard mitigation planning so she has to say it doesn't mean I know everything but yeah I feel like I need to chime in a little bit I mean it's in size and it's all it's all the floodplain now anyway this one is 133 State Street where instead of a new building that Gossin's proposed this one has parking and then housing above in there which they say this can be designed in such a way that not only that but the parking below if it were done flat floor could become housing if we had more aggressive strategy for keeping cars out of downtown depending on what happens with it I'm going to take a position that nobody else likes which is global warming stuff is telling us we're going to have to do something about the car sooner rather than later nobody wants to admit it because you know the assumption is we're going to keep going on the way it is both the economy and the environment say we're going to have to attend to it sooner rather than later so the more that we can do the thinking that we'll do this from my point of view I'm not one of the designers it's just I stick it out there because I think it is one of something we're going to have to worry about again parking down at the I know you keep saying there's somebody looking at the Grossman's lot but that's been years and nothing's happened there is there is something happening there there's people that the property has the property has sold I can say that because it's got a new sign out oh ok I didn't yes so what are they doing well it's build to suit build to suit talk about a shall we say toxic site that remediation what I'd hate to face that one they've done the testing they know it's there they've got all the plans what was there before was the location of the coal gasification plant so it does have coal tar I'm not going to put a children's school there yeah you're probably not going to see any day care facility construction company after that yeah Grossman's that's why they call it the Grossman's lot it was the Grossman's lumber company that may be before some of yours time but it was sort of a New England franchise of lumber yards this concept's interesting because they're actually looking at taking the parking and putting it under solar canopies which makes a solar park out of it as well as the gas station you see four places like that in front of the co-op but this would be a whole parking lot and then they had the idea of moving Bob Sonoco down here with a convenience store that would park there that would be where you'd wait for the train and where you would get a coffee from there looks like the bike path would just take you in too the bike path would take you in as well but see they've got the train coming here the bike path I think they're assuming you come over here with but that's this is imagined as a city development not a private one it's imagined as a city development but it could be a private one maybe a private parking lot basically this is recognizing there could be a garage over at the labor lot which could triple or quadruple the available parking there and some kind of a link into they talk about it as a third of a mile to here but there could be shuttling or whatever to this but again that could take 800 cars final area which we started with which was the energy component of this the whole idea of this was to get net zero energy development plans forward so how do we get renewable reusable energy reduce the greenhouse gases reduce the energy demand and meter exceed the state energy plan you know 2050 it's like our grandchildren are supposed to deal with it but the reality is it's something that has to be talked about now so different of them had different ways of and these were more summaries of what could be done putting in wind and solar putting in a reduction so it was a combination of right new building you know where is the next one here connected to the district new buildings connected to the district heat plant surprise that the city wasn't more aggressive on that one you could have net zero building in essence with the the new level of what can be done as far as insulation building design making the best use of the solar game putting the solar panels on top you can make net zero buildings without a real lift anymore we know how to do it the question is the choice the district heat plant is of course an added one because you need less electricity if you've got the biomass service provided so this is an interesting one the existing buildings all have to be retrofitted it's one thing to build new all of that is there all of it is very wasteful in terms of design and energy so there's a whole job that the city has to do it's interesting that the mayor and council are considering this charter change thing which will allow an energy rating from the because the landlords have been sticking the tenants often times with the energy charges for the heating etc rather than saying should we be taking more of a proactive role which will help the landlords to actually do the energy work, the efficiency work necessary I can tell you having done the efficiency work in my house boy it doesn't make a difference in terms of the livability of the place and the cost of heating it so I'm a big advocate on that one and this as you add those in with the new buildings all of whom are now have on this plan have solar fields on the top of them and the district heat so again the district heat was a feature of a number of these for the downtown it does a way of actually creating lots of new units that could be supported and heated but the city has to take that seriously they sort of like they made the cost of hooking up like you have to pay for it now which is why the french block chose not to do it because it was just too costly so summary I'm going to have to turn this and read it myself because I didn't print it I thought it was going to be up there this was going to be so more housing and transit equals less traffic so we've got to work on alternative transportation systems you know walk or use transit from home that's one of the reasons why we're looking at the microtransit because it makes it easier you know when you talk to the seniors etc everybody says well we'd like to take the bus but it never comes I don't know when it's coming when you know it's like so the idea is you have to make something that is convenient and easy as your own car and that's what we're looking to do riverfront parks and green spaces and housing development are necessary for our future development you already know about diverse housing throughout the city but what the red map and these things show is there's a huge opportunity downtown if we can figure out how to capture it we need alternative parking options okay we renew renewable energy to reduce our greenhouse gases so so thank you very much alright I'm done I have one couple pieces and then I'm oh it's empty so what these are is proposing design concepts that can be integrated in your new city plan okay well that's why we're here tonight we're including the city's committees and we've made presentations or part of all of them in various ways for building the coalitions we've already done like I said both the transportation roundtable and a roundtable on the lower north branch which led to some different thinking about what could be done along the riverfront there so we look to work with you on anything we can provide in the future we hope to be a resource to the city committees as they work with you to contribute to the city plans so we're not trying to be you know coming in from outside but to be a way of influencing all of the different people as you can see the design competition offered multiple concepts for each of the city committees on what could be done you know and we just wanted to give you the overview on what came out of it so that you could be prepared in the future and well thank you very much for your time that was it yeah we did any questions or anything else anybody want to finish one? a lot of questions but I think we're going to have to work through some of these ideas it sounds like I felt myself thinking about the challenges of a variety of the ideas and we'll have to find that balance of being able to look at our wish list and not getting bogged down by what the hurdles might be but also thinking about what the hurdles might be is because we don't want it to be a non-starter and then we have problems so we're just finding that balance this is why you know I was telling you about the microtransit and the train is that we tried to say it's not a parking problem it's a transportation problem sometimes it is just switching how you think about things rather than saying oh we got this parking problem what do we do oh we need more garage we need this or that rather than saying well maybe we have to change how people move around maybe we can help do that and make it fun and convenient etc and that changes the discussion and moves things around so that's what I was hoping you might consider for some of these other pieces sorry I have to leave too anyone else have questions thoughts okay thank you look at all of this and we'll probably ask you to come back again we're at your disposal thanks so much my pleasure so Mike is it okay if we kick the meeting minutes considerations for the next meeting so that puts us to the last side of the agenda which is do I have a motion to adjourn I move Stephanie seconded all those in favor we are adjourned thanks everybody