 So welcome everybody to our panel session today about how Ospose can help catapult Ireland into open source. I'm delighted to be joined here today with our fantastic panelists. Most of us are coming to you from Ireland, some of us are coming to you from the United States, but we're all here to talk about the experience of Ireland and open source. So if I could introduce our wonderful panelists with us here today is Brian Fitzgerald, who's the director of Liro Ireland's Suffer Research Center. We have Gar McCree step, who is the product manager for Ireland's COVID tracker app and works with the health service executive, which is Ireland's health service. We have Tim Willoughby, who is the head of digital services and innovation with on guard as she a corner, which is Ireland's police service. And we have Denise Cooper, who's a longtime open source advocate, but who also works with near form in Ireland and who were also involved in the development of Ireland's COVID tracker app. So welcome all nice to have you here. And we're here today to talk about Ireland and open source. And I suppose it might be a good idea to start with maybe going over a little bit of Ireland's history with open source. We're not really known to be, you know, a nation that is, you know, top of mind when it comes to open source. But Brian, I know you've shared that we have had lots of individual contributors who've made amazing contributions to open source. Perhaps you can give us a little bit of an overview of who they are. You're delighted to clear a good opportunity. So we've had a long record of significant contribution. And I just name some of the people who are very briefly. Justin Mason, who created Apache spam assassin, which protects 100 million users. Keena Marjean, who founded near form, which Denise is going to talk about later. And they, I think commit about 25% of all commits to know JS so significant. Kayla McNamara, who now works at Red Hat, was the person who reverse engineered the Microsoft document format, which paved the way for star office and open office. Dave Airely authored Pam SMB, which allowed Unix machines to authenticate to Windows NT domain. Mel Gorman wrote the first VQF decoder for Linux back in 1998. Tony, and on the commercial side then Tony Kenny, I think, but back in 2002. Move moment hospital to an entirely open source suite of admin and hospital administration systems. Very much enough for struggle. And Hans Jürgen Kugler was instrumental in trying to persuade Mercedes that they should use think think about using open source. He told he should check himself into a mental hospital now. Very specific at open source program. I think the moral of the story from those practical examples is that we were ahead of our time in that people were ready for open source. And there's a lot of really good stuff hard to sell it much easier nowadays. So we were probably 15 years ahead of our time. And you yourself, Brian, you've been involved in the open source community for a good number of years. I first heard about it in 1998, late 1998 on a seminar that my friend Joe Feller gave. And he was giving to students. None of them were interested. I was extremely interested in give up research and everything else for the next 20 years. And we did a lot of early publication are very well cited there. We founded the I for working group and open source software. We had workshops at the international conferences of engineering from 2001 2005. We founded the international conferences of engineering, which has been running since 2006. And we ran the show in school. I think it opens us up in 2017. And most recently, class and stole who are very active in this area is PhD and Lero. He and Denise worked on the definitive book and inner source, which is really popular. So lots of stuff going on in in research as well. And I think it's so it's probably noteworthy that we've had so many individuals and organizations in Ireland to participate in this way. But perhaps we're just not coordinating that effort in a way to actually help people know about it. And I know that Tim, you've had a lot of experience from a public sector perspective in Ireland within open source. Perhaps you can comment about what's been happening there for the last number of years. Thanks very much. I suppose I started my life out in the local government sector. And as well in in 2006 2007, it became very obvious there wasn't going to be as much capital to spend in it. So we started looking at initially started looking at cheaper open source alternatives and we went for an awful lot of community based products because that was all that we had the capital to do. I suppose since then we, I think my view is open sources again, not not to similar to innovation. It's all about doing things. So we did a whole load of different projects with al fresco elastic sugar red hat. And again, we were probably early using quite a lot of them. I know I can't talk about open source in public sector without mentioning, you know, Dr me hi by Luca, who was in Limerick City and County Council, or Liam Stewart in the office of the public works or, you know, revenue john Baron. And obviously Tony Kenny's been mentioned before but you know there's certainly, there's an awful lot of stuff happening. Part of it is just telling people what what you're doing. And now I work in the Irish police. So we're using al fresco elastic sugar red hat, huge amount of Android and open development structures open architecture. So yeah it's, again, it's just following the natural curve of where the world is going with open sources. It's, it's evolving and we're able to harness the power of it. So I think what's interesting when I've heard the story about what you're doing with on guard the she a corner as well. You've also been involved in some international collaborations on the back of that open work. Perhaps you can comment about the potential around that. Yeah, we've had a number of hackathons with the Dutch, the Danish and the Swedish police. And again, that would part initially it was a meeting of minds that we needed to look at more open architectures open in league so we could share stuff. So the more proprietary we became the less we're able to share. So we agreed some open architectures and open standards. And now we had a hackathon last year then where we started to evolve the sharing and we're sharing apps with each other because we're able to develop on the same platforms. And again, we may not ever these apps may not ever become on public shareable sites for the because they're quite secure in their nature but it is still a group of different international police forces working together with absolutely as was inner source rather than open source. That's it. Yeah, no it's and it is important for for those of you who are not familiar with inner source it's the application of open source methods inside firewalls, which has proven to create great collaboration so yeah thank you and thanks for your work there. And guard you've been involved in probably Ireland's most recent open source success so perhaps you can give us some background about the cover tracker app and why you chose to move down an open source route with that. Um, I guess quick bit of background so I work for the health service executive and in conjunction so the health service executive in conjunction with the guard the share con of the Irish police force department public expenditure, and the Department of Health Central Statistics Office and others and Defense Forces Ireland and all work collaboratively with private sector partners near form Amazon and a bunch of others to bring this up together. And at the beginning, I think I've told this story before where we didn't know it was going to be an app it turned out to be an app. It seems obvious now that it was, but the app itself. Due to the nature of it and given that this is a population scale response to a pandemic, then the transparency privacy were top of mind for a lot of people so as we were going through that process of trying to understand, not alone how we would build it but how we would get a large proportion of our population to adopt it and trust it. Then it became critical for us to be open and transparent about how we were doing that. So open source became kind of the natural evolution of that. So there were demands immediately from privacy rights and civil liberties people to say yeah we want to see it and but in our heads that this is the direction of travel that we were going. It was the only way that we could truly make it open. So a lot of what we did was done in that spirit, but it was done in that way with the driver being transparency in the first instance. And it was really around that and that was to build trust through that. And I think that the follow on from this then was that once we had opened it and actually prior to us publishing into the Linux Foundation public health project. We'd open sourced it separately so we set up the first GitHub, HSE Ireland organization on GitHub and it was the first GitHub project that HSE had done. And there's so I think there's, there's a bit here at the beginning of understanding what's involved and actually open sourcing it because it's not as simple as here's the code publish. It's there's more thinking to be done and I think that's where for organizations like the HSE for things like inner source can work. And it's because it's kind of that here's the toolkit. Here's the step by step. Here's the stuff you don't know about this thing that you don't need you've heard about but don't really understand how it works. So then the subsequent piece of that was publishing into the Linux Foundation public health project, which again ratcheted up a notch, both in terms of just the overall community that could support it, but also the scope of this. It's being us sharing it with Northern Ireland and because we share with Northern Ireland we share with Scotland quite regularly, and it's not done in the context of it being open source it's done as a sharing a sharing thing, which again from an inner source comments like that that's kind of how that works it's that the mechanisms in place about how you manage something like that. But now it's in so if you look at where it's been deployed to a near form we've been involved in most of these so it's Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Jersey Gibraltar, New York New Jersey, Delaware, and others to come. And that's one of the benefits from this in that we made this investment and figured out how to solve this problem that many people have. And now we're benefiting from the fact that other people are coming on board and we can see that the flow in the other direction now where in the next release that we've got we're integrating features in that we're designed somewhere else. And we're bringing that back into what we've done so I think that's going to be. It's a critical piece that it doesn't seem to make any sense. And if you're a policymaker who has no exposure to this. It's very difficult to believe that this can happen but now we have evidence to show it happening and Tim has a similar experience with things like this and policing and beforehand, where you do get that sharing and you do see that community building around it. Yeah, and I, you know, from my personal perspective, like when I remember seeing that going in, you know, being open sourced, and I remember the first pull request that we saw being put against that was with something along the lines of, you guys don't know how to spell Cairo Syveen I'm down in the West Coast of Ireland and I know we spell it this way. And I remember thinking how wonderful that was that people were taking it, you know, feeling like this was something that was theirs and therefore community folks from the community weren't really developers at all. And, you know, taking action to make that more relevant for them and for me, that's a primary, you know, benefit of open source that people can make it feel that it's their own which really helps in terms of adoption. You've experienced this for years and you helped near form on their journey around this. And perhaps you can talk as well about the considerations from near forms perspective being a small, you know, company in Ireland and how they chose to take this approach. Sure. I think our probably remembers the first conversation we had about open sourcing this code base and me saying it's not just about showing the code, and that there's a potential for this to actually become the world solution to contact tracing if we play our cards and I remembered car going, yeah, sure. And yet that's what happens if you surf the wave just perfectly, you know, and again, it's important to remember we were not the only contact tracing app that was in progress. We just got lucky that the lessons that came right before us and people being generous and sharing what they were learning made it possible for us to land a little bit better. And, and, you know, we were just lucky in that. So, near form classic, you know, consulting thing for them, they specialize in rapid deployment. And they did that they the first version the first working version was done in less than what was it 72 hours or something ridiculous like that. They did full three full implementations because the target kept changing it started out as a centralized app and later it became decentralized but it was always privacy first from its design. There was a lot of real time effort going into creating the game which is the, the API is that Google and Apple exposed for us so that we could do exposure notification. Because we were sort of pushing the envelope on how you how you how much you can say without actually breaching some of these privacy. Right. And so that was also a factor in how it came out the way it did and why we were positioned where we were in time. But then there came the time where the HSE had published the code to make it interesting to privacy people to have a look at it. And they did and they liked it and that was great. And when a little bit of open source happened I believe where they made some suggestions that we took on board and that creates more trust more ownership, right. So that when it was released to the public they were actually advocates for people to pick it up and use it instead of saying don't don't do this it's terrible the government wrote it they were all like yeah you should use this right which is great. Then the opportunity to give it to the links foundation comes through and near form has to look at the commercial implications. Right. So we are selling into markets that want their own special version of that app for their market like New York. But at the same time there's only 120 of us it's not like we can do all the business that's going to come out of this. And at some point there's there's got to be a humanitarian aspect to your thinking you know part of open sources do not try to monetize every value you create leave anything on the table. If it's possible for us to help the world to a faster solution as this pandemic works its way through the developing world, then that's going to help all of us, because a pandemic implies the whole world is at risk. That means we're at risk equally to everybody else so if we can contribute to the solution that's good thing. To be fair, nobody knew who near form was outside of Ireland until this tracing app so the other thing it did was it was a springboard for awareness about the company and its capabilities so. So we did that calculation and came up with yes it should go there. HSE was also amenable to that happening so we went forward and it is the most adopted coded tracing up now, because of that work. And I think you know we talked earlier about the importance of how open sourcing that code for the app helped trust in terms of adoption but actually what's interesting I think from your story is that it. You know it's pretty obvious that that can also help trust in the organization that created it and in this case from a near forms perspective as they as they were looking to do business in new markets where they weren't known. People could actually see what they've done before and therefore trust their capability more. I think it's incredibly important point when we start thinking about you know companies from Ireland who are trying to access new markets abroad and it's a it's a it's a very important point to note so. Well they keep having to remember that the whole world can see the code. And so that is a driver for pushing features as they're completed on a given version into the upstream version. Right and and it's not natural doesn't come natural to consulting company to do that even one that really knows a lot about open source. So that's been very interesting to watch. Yeah, no it's it's a fantastic story. And but so from from our perspective I know we've been working with an organization mass labs which has been working with municipalities and universities on a worldwide basis, helping them create and sustain their open source program office so perhaps you can also comment about that initiative and the I suppose the opportunity for open source program office to help in the kinds of things we've been hearing about here today. And so when we think about Ireland's potential moving forward in the open source world, we've got these great examples. And we're a little bit not coordinated about how we actually go about open source in Ireland but maybe, maybe you can share with us what you see as being the opportunities for us to actually help kind of suppose catapult this forward. Sure. So the idea that must labs has a promoting that the construct of an Osmo or open source program office into academia and government has to do partially with the fact that this works very well in tech companies and has for 20 years now. I actually started the first Osmo when I was at sun. And that was about controlling the influx and outflow of open source at the time there was a lot of paranoia in all companies about how that was going to happen. But over time, we've relaxed about that it's now an underpinning a strong underpinning of all innovation in the tech sector. And looking at places where there isn't very deep adoption yet, and there probably should be two of those are academia and municipal governments. And there's been some experimentation, but early adopters were punished for their early adoption, and that creates a chilling effect on future adoption. There are a couple of really famous stories like MIT's open coursework that's made them very successful at being the premier, you know, translation engine, if you will. But there are bigger universities, more involved research institutions that really have barely been touching the surface of this kind of sharing of information. So the idea is that we through Moss Labs we established working groups and created essentially some course materials for people that are going to contribute to the working groups to get everybody working in the same direction of creating an actual network. That's the plus plus and network of these institutional auspice for government and academia around the world, and see if we can't meet in the middle a little bit at pulling those two kinds of institutions into open source a little more fully. And it's, it's been very interesting and rewarding work we've been at it for a couple of years now, and it's starting to really start to show some fruit so that's exciting. That's fantastic and I know Gar, you know, we have spoken about the potential to, I suppose, help do more of what you've done with the COVID app in Ireland. So can you maybe comment, and you're on mute at the moment, I'll just note that but can you maybe comment about, you know, your thoughts around a construct like this and whether or not you think that could help, I suppose. And again, this is, this is me talking as me rather than me talking for the HSE. So I've done a lot of public sector work over the years and I think I can, I can speak in general about some of that stuff. And specifically with relation actually if I start specifically with relation to COVID tracker. So what we're seeing now is the adoption from other by other countries and other states and other health authorities of this app. And the coordination around that what we do and how we manage that is turning it turns into something. So I'm learning as I go along. So I'm learning as I have had to do this but how to build that as an institutional capability within an organization. That's a different thing. It's, it's all well and good having somebody who knows how to navigate this and somebody who knows how to actually engage and go and do it, but trying to build that as a capability in an organization is a different thing. So I think that's the first piece where you end up and what seems to happen is you end up with individuals where you've got key person dependencies on people who are the glue in this. And I think that's part of where this can fit where an Ospo can fit because it is the interface into these worlds. And they're not it's not they're like they're simple worlds. They're they're actually quite complex worlds that we're trying to figure it out. And we're trying to figure out who and Tim has spent a long time trying to figure out who and where and how and how to work with that. I've spent time and particularly in this one I've spent time trying to figure out who and what do we do how do we contribute what does that mean. And there's kind of a laddering up of like so there's one thing where it's just saying sharing. There's another piece where you're actually be contributing which is a different thing. And there's kind of levels to this as well as we begin to ladder up as we go through the process of understanding how it works. If you look across just problem spaces across public services or municipalities. A lot of similar issues just occur and result from the fact that we're trying to solve problems with very narrow option sets. So we're trying to solve problems and so I can only solve it with the tools that I have in front of me or the options I have in front of me. And this just is another way of opening up that opening up that option space and getting more people involved in it and being able to have those conversations. And equally the conversations that have happened with other public health authorities about how you do it and it's not just directly to do with the software. It's and so we have conversations now with. So how are you dealing with schools? So it's nothing to do with the app, but it's how are you dealing with schools? The app is in the background, but how are you dealing with schools? How are you dealing with healthcare workers? How are you dealing with other things like this? So the community begins to kind of become more mature and as the relationships build, you really benefit I think a huge amount. So I think there's there's a great case to be made certainly within health services in Ireland, but I also think within brought more broadly within government in Ireland as to how this can fit and how it can help. So it's not like it's a it's not another silver bullet. We've had enough silver bullets for now, but it's another tool in the toolbox that we can use. And where it fits, it fits. And when we're trying to do things like this, and we're trying to solve complex problems, it is that shared collective piece of trying to make sense of something like this, which is what happened in COVID tracker purely because the urgency was there to drive that, but I don't think there's another mechanism that would allow that to happen. I don't think individual commercial engagements we narrow to quickly on committing to single options, whereas this allows you to keep your options open for longer and then make decisions later. So I mean, it's really interesting because we talk about open source code and people think focus in on the code and the legal aspects and all the rest of it, but in the open source world, they speak so much about standing on the shoulders of giants, but what I'm hearing is that's not just in the context of the reusability of the code. It's also in this open approach that allows you to share so much more about the cultural stuff around that to make change happen. And even just knowing where to go to find out people who've done it before and to be able to access, you know, those those people I mean, you know, you know, the conversations between yourself and Tim, one would hope that that that sort of cross government collaboration, or even Tim in your experience, cross government as in cross national border collaboration should become easier with these kinds of constructs would you would you agree Tim or as being a tool? Absolutely, I think the challenge, you know, when certainly if I talk to the technical team, or the technical team we used to work with in previous life, you know, there are a lot of their training was in a completely different platforms and they read open source and the fear that we're going to have to submit code. They're saying, No, if we can submit the stories about our use is probably going to be a way more values to other people than committing code and lines of code. If we don't have those skills, it doesn't mean you should stay away but it means that me telling a story about how we're using like the Garda College is using Moodle and we've moved all of our courses online in the last six months from from physical coursework to virtual coursework. And as we've adopted Moodle, we've just upgraded to the latest version, but the fact that we're doing it should allow somebody else to go, Oh, I must talk to them about how this works. And we can share absolutely our stories. And I think that's, that's the power that we have. You're like, I'll never be able to write a line of code that anyone will use but somebody might take one of my one of my slide decks. It's a great story. So I'm glad to hear you'll continue to share those. So that's fantastic. And Brian, Brian, you've, you've, you've also been involved in the Ospo plus plus a working group and network and that Denise was talking about. And, but can you maybe talk about what you've got from that and from a Leroy's perspective. Yeah, so actually we've just established a Leroy open source program office. And that's just last week in fact we had a meeting about it. So Leroy actually is multi institution we comprise about 300 more than 300 searches across 12 institutions. We learned a lot last week about the open source activities across those institutions that we didn't know about. So a lot of code being generated in different projects. We also have a co founder of the Journal of open source software which is specifically for open source software being created and been reviewed. And then it became obvious that people had concerns that they were unaware of what license use for example, or how to build a community around their project which would prevent it from flourishing. And I think the open source spirit came to the fore, for example. So we are getting help from other university hospitals, Johns Hopkins, who are very sophisticated Rochester Institute of Technology, University of California Santa Cruz and they're all making available to us. Their lessons which is typical of the open source spirit that Tim talked about the stories that worked and so on. So that inspires other people hearing about things. We're very excited about semesters of code where we send undergraduate students out to companies in their third year for nine months. We think there's a really good opportunity to spend that semester developing open source software, learning about licensing, learning about community contributions. And that could be a useful skill setting which companies would appreciate as well. So that was an idea we didn't have a week ago. So lots of exciting things. So what's the space I guess I think we'll have a lot of announcements around doing this. So I think it's, it's fantastic. I mean, even just to have that gathering space for, or that space for people to gather to share those stories is something that the Ospo can provide. And then the notion that by working across national borders with other institutions that have similar challenges, how much you can learn from that is incredible. And I love the idea that this is just another tool in our toolbox in Ireland when we think about innovation and how we how we just make this happen more quickly, and to have other options for people, alongside the traditional of IP, for example, monetization, which, which again it's just an alternative viewpoint on this. And Denise, do you maybe want to talk about the Ospo plus plus network and, you know, how how people can get involved in this and what's happening there. Sure. So, as I said before, we spent the summer building coursework to help people on board because every time a new entity joined the conversation we were having to go back to first principles. So we've built a series of six videos that you can watch and kind of get a leg up on where we're at in the conversation. And there's going to be a big push now in the fall to bring Europe online because this all started in America, but with the addition of lira we start getting into European entities. European Commission and European Union are getting ready to make some actual concrete policy recommendations and also best practices for member states and companies in Europe. It's been a great time for sort of open source to awareness to be flooding into to Europe, not that Europe hasn't been doing plenty of great work. They have of course, but as a as a sort of class of service again academia and municipalities sort of lagging behind in their adoption worldwide, not not just in Europe. And so we're getting ready to do that big push so there is a working group if you represent research institution in academia or a municipality you can certainly apply to join the working group. And I'm not sure do we have an email address for that appeal seems like we should have one. If people would like to email info at mass labs.io and they'll be able to find out more information. Thank you. And I think one extra thing one one thing that I certainly would love to to just share here today is the example for me that really kind of pointed to the power of this construct as a tool for that collaboration and that that's the story of Paris and Lutess and how that man to hop the Atlantic and be used in Baltimore because for me that was one of the the most amazing stories of open source at a city level that was able to be applied in a different city but then also johns Hopkins and how that became involved in that so it might be interesting to share that Sure. Yeah. Yeah, so the city of this all started because the guy who founded mass labs Jacob Green, who lives in Baltimore was looking for solutions to try to help his city get better because they were going through a rough patch. They were the murder capital of America a couple years ago. And he and others wanted to see that change. Now local government in Baltimore was also having a crisis and johns Hopkins, which is the largest in terms of money that it raises research institution in America is headquartered and lives in Baltimore and therefore hires most of its you know staff from around Baltimore and they as the largest private in employer. We're also interested in lifting the municipality. So they got interested through Jacob in this project that he found out about at the city that the city of Paris had written lutes, which is the old name for the for Paris is an open source massive actually open source installation of tools to allow the municipality of Paris to serve its citizenry. So pretty much anything you want to do that touches the city you have to go through this piece of software, you know to get a marriage license to get a building permit to report a pothole in your streets I mean literally anything. And Jacob got very interested in this project and brought it back to Baltimore and through johns Hopkins they've built a competency in how to use it. And the first place that they've used it is in the not at the government level because the government still trying to write itself. But at the actual institution of family and neighborhood centers, all throughout this little town of Baltimore there are these neighborhood centers that are like parish halls almost, and they serve the underserved they serve the kids who don't have parents at home after school because they're at work. They serve older people that are trying to understand technology and how to how to navigate the world now. And so now, all of your scheduling for those services is going through an instance of lutes that was created by johns Hopkins for the neighborhood centers. That's starting to grow it's starting to snowball a little bit in that part of America, this is becoming more and more common. And how great is that and then they contribute back to lutes and and these people in Paris are starting to get, you know, contributions back from completely new source. They're looking for more of that. So that for people that are watching this that are in a municipality, by all means go have a look at lutes and maybe talk to my slabs if you want to understand how to make use of it. And I'll add to that that I was listening to the founders of hack Baltimore alongside some of the folks from St Francis neighborhood center at open Baltimore, the event that they had a little while ago. And they again made the point about the fact that this technology is open source created this level of trust and allowed the people of Baltimore to feel like they had agency in in the technology that was being made for them and that instead of technology being done for them, it was being done with them. And I think when we think about digital transformation and we think about the that as being a priority for most of the countries around the world. And that becomes so important that that higher level of trust and that that accessibility really and paths to get engaged with technology is a fantastic thing. Yeah, there is a session during this we're recording this for the Linux Foundation open source summit, and there is a session being recorded for the summit where myself and Jacob are talking to me. Who is the CIO of the city of Paris. So there'll be more information about that there. I think that's fantastic. And I suppose it's it's, I'm sorry that we're not all here at the Linux Foundation open source summit, which was due to be held in Dublin Ireland. Dublin, and it's a shame that we can't be all together in person to have those discussions but it's wonderful that we can share these experiences and share these stories, regardless so and hopefully to an even wider audience which which is marvelous. And before we wrap up with anyone like to care to make any final kind of comments or observations about the about open source and how it can be used in national innovation agendas. So even what's next in the future, maybe maybe I'll just ask everyone what they think is next for them in the open source world so Gar, I'll start with you. Where, where are you going to next when on your open source journey. So I think for us, I think there's, there's an interesting community that has just grown up within the Linux Foundation public health project. I think the it's now looking in adjacent spaces. So it's not, it's not necessarily so the app is a thing, but all of the adjacent spaces to do with a pandemic response are the places where the conversations are beginning to go. And that's where a lot of the efforts are going the thinking is going it's what else do we need to do how else do we support and help through this. So I think that's for me that that's the next area it's the next thing there. I think there will be an ongoing evolution with these contact tracing based technologies and that's going to happen and there's a great community to be able to share within that. And the EU interoperability work that's happening at the moment is all being coordinated through the Linux Foundation public health slack channel that's literally just sitting on top of it. It doesn't really have anything directly to do with it, but it's just just because the community convene there. It's a convenient place to bring those people together to coordinate some of the activity that's going on. So that's within the very short term, but I think longer term. It's really does adjacent spaces that will begin to explore more. Thanks. Thanks, Gar. And Brian, from your perspective, I know the Liro Ospo is in its early days, but what are you the next from your perspective. Open source is very interesting. I think like I thought it wouldn't work because it's so paradoxical. But things like crowdsourcing, which have been very popular in many areas in the past years in medical research, for example, pharmaceutical research. The only reason that happened was because the success of open source that you could now do things like that. So the open star for us is where this is really interesting, like open hardware is there. Open data is really important, open innovation. So all those things are enabled by open source, the success of open source, an example of proving that you could harness millions of people. I think Linux project is described as the largest collaborative project in the history of mankind. So you have those kinds of things that couldn't happen before. So it opens all kinds of new research areas, which we're very excited about. Well, that sounds like an interesting path for you guys to be starting on. So fantastic. And Tim, from your perspective, what are the next steps from the open source agenda? I think I think no, no difference from my colleagues. The plan is just to keep pushing the rocks up the hill and keep telling stories. I think certainly we're looking to share with our colleagues across different policing organizations and harness their thoughts and their powers. They're, they're possibly ahead of us on the journey in terms of policing, but we're in the same space in terms of technology. So I think the future is bright. And when I get my, my innovation room going in, in Gardishek on it, we'll invite the world to come in and look fantastic. Yeah, I love that. And hopefully we might, we might see about how we could actually gather together all this energy and hopefully do more. I'll note that the open source observatory did a report recently in terms of Ireland and, you know, the constructs and institutions that were available to support it open source. I did note that as of today, we don't necessarily have a formal strategy around open source, but I think from all the stories we've heard here today, it just seems like there is so much potential for Ireland in this space, in terms of accelerating innovation, looking at skills that are required for the worldwide software ecosystem, and thinking about how Ireland can play its part in addressing these global problems that are emerging for us. And I certainly look forward to thinking about how a construct like the Ospo and the Ospo plus plus plus plus network can help us on that journey. So I'd like to close out today then by saying thank you all for your participation and I very much look forward to taking this this conversation further. So thanks everyone. Bye bye.