 of Fireside Chat, I'm Doug O'Keefe. I am the host and the producer of the chats, along with Mistress Joanne Gatti. The Fireside Chats are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today, I'm interviewing Craig Menzies, who was Mr. Hong Kong Leather 2019. You're originally from South Africa. Whereabouts? I was born in Johannesburg and then lived most of my life in Pretoria. And tell us a little bit about growing up in South Africa. What was it like at that time? Well, I grew up in apartheid years. So we lived a very different life to what the world knew outside. Our life was pretty segregated and very controlled. So we really only knew what was happening in South Africa itself. There were sanctions. There was embargoes and everything. So it was quite a... We were a bit of an island, if you like. But it was a good life, a good life. And went to school in South Africa, went to really good schools, went to university in South Africa. And then in 1994, Mandela was released and we got our first democratic government. And then the new South Africa was born, which was great. Tell me about that experience. What happened as you saw it? It was an amazing experience. It really was. It was an experience of where everybody came together. Black, white, colored. And there was just a great sense of achievements and a great sense of new. Something new, something better will be achieved. And we had a lot of hope at that time. So it was really, really good. And having the first democratic election was good too. It was open to everybody. So it was just an amazing feeling. Were you out at all as a gay man at that time? Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I've been very lucky. I have had a very, very accepting family from the onset. I've only been to boys' schools, so I've known nothing else. So yeah, now I've been very lucky, very, very lucky. How was the gay scene back in those days? It was limited, limited. We had a few bars, we had a few clubs, but that was really all South Africa catered for. There was nothing in terms of leather or king core or anything like that at that time. I'm talking sort of 25 years ago. So no, nothing like what was happening in the big wide world outside, which is why a lot of South Africans and Australians and Kiwis got on the boats and went off to the UK and experienced the big world. You were one of them? I was, I was one of them. I think just about every young South African puts a backpack on their back and travels over to the UK. We were very lucky, because being part of the Commonwealth, we would get a visa which would allow us to go and work there for a couple of years and then go and travel around. So I was very lucky. I actually didn't do that. I was transferred with my work to the UK, so I was okay. What work were you doing that took you there? I, so I'm in South Africa, I studied interior design and I was working on cinemas. I used to design cinemas and when the old East, when the Uncurtain came down and all these block countries started opening up, we went in and we put cinemas on top of the old shopping center blocks. So it was quite interesting. So they sent you to the UK to then go to Eastern Europe? That's right, our branch, well, my company that I worked for in Johannesburg had a branch in the UK and then most of the clients were actually in places like Poland, Czech Republic, Prague, that sort of place. How did you experience gay life in London when you got there? Well, that was a bit of a culture shock and a good culture shock if you like because everything was there. You almost were like a child in a sweet shop. Everything you wanted to experience was available in the UK from bars, from clubs, from shops, from saunas, everything was there. And the nice thing about the UK was it almost was, it catered for every single thing, every sort of like or dislike that you had. So that was good. What were your first experiences with the gay life there? So I would say probably first experiences would be to go to places like Soho, Old Crompton Street, to see bars, multiple bars. So they've only had a few bars where here it would be like a whole area of bars, to go to the clubs, to basically be within a community, more of a community than what we ever had back home. A more accepting community, I suppose. What was your first concept on the kink or leather community? How did you even know that this existed? You always knew it existed. You just wanted to go and see what it was like. And I remember London was pretty strict. The hoist and the back streets and those sort of bars were very strict in terms of dress code. So you had to have something, you had to have some sort of leather wear that you could wear to go to those bars. And that was always a bit of a difficult hindrance. But eventually we got there. Going into Europe as well, which is a little less formal than what the UK was. I'd go to some bars and some leather clubs there. So I don't really know what my first experience was because there were so many experiences and they were all good. But I think just being in a community or in a bar where everyone shares the same ideas or interests. What values did you share? Well, you would learn honesty and trust and what you say you do, that sort of thing. And I think those are underlying rules which us as a community have. And I think when you are interested in more sort of extreme things or fetched things, you do have that. And you do have to learn to trust people and learn to value people's opinions. And that is how you join that community. Now, the first time that you experienced anything really kinky or anything very intriguing in a bar, what was that? Oh, I know. There was a chap, he was wearing some chaps and he had a pair of gloves just sort of stuck in his chaps and he was bent over the side of the bar and he was ready to be taken. And that was, oh wow, that actually happens. I was young and now it would be, okay, that's all right. Tell me a bit about the hoist as you knew it. Oh, it was a great place. It was an amazing place. You had arrived, they had a code check. So people would arrive pretty normally and they would have a code check where you'd strip off and put on all your gear and you'd go through like a double string doors and it would just be like a porn movie. Everybody was fully dressed, head to toe and it was just a good vibe, it was a great vibe. The hoist was in Voxel so it was built under the bridges underneath the arches of the railway tracks. So it was quite dark, quite dingy. You know, had a bit of a seedy feel to it, great bar. There was a raised area where people could stand up on and then there was a bit of a play space. During that time, I don't think that UK had any dark rooms or anything like that was illegal. So, you know, things just happened around where you were. How long did it take before you felt comfortable being able to participate in anything? Not long, not long at all. I don't want to hear. When, you know, when you sort of bought the membership card and you got the gear, then you seemed to feel quite fine and I think I met a lot of really, really good people. I learned a lot. I was taught things the right way. So I'm very fortunate about that and moved on from there and yeah, you try things and you enjoy things and that's how it is. Were you mentored? I was not mentored by, I was, yes, I was mentored. I was mentored by one or two specific people but it was more of a group of friends or people that I met. What were they? Which is very important, very important because I think passing on that knowledge is a great way for young people to experience things in a very comfortable way. And I think it's something which doesn't really happen so much now in our current lifestyles that we have. Which is sad, which is sad. At what point did you leave London to then eventually go to Hong Kong? I'd already traveled to the UK. This was my first venture into something new. My partner at the time wanted an experience or wanted a adventure. So looked around and found a job in Hong Kong and that's really what brought us here. It was something which happened really quickly. It wasn't planned, but it, it happened and it was good. Yeah. We've got chat was like, oh shit, now we're in Hong Kong. This is a bit weird. It's a completely different life than you would have known in London. Completely different life, completely different life. If you've ever been to Hong Kong, you know that it is just a concrete city with neon signs everywhere. And yeah, we've always described it as being on the set of Blade Runner and it really is like, it's manic, it's manic and we arrived and it was like, oh shit, what have we done? But you get into it, you meet people, you know, you start your work and it grows on you. It really does. How long have you been there? 17 years. Oh, a good long time. So a good long time, good long time. Time for a change. So tell me about the gay life, the kinky life, all of that in Hong Kong. That's an interesting question. That doesn't really exist. It does exist, but it is behind closed doors. We do have a couple of bars. We have a nightclub, but it's very vanilla. It's very, it's pretty normal stuff, if you like. There's no kink, there's nothing sort of on the fringe here. Asian people are very discreet, they're very private. They don't express themselves in certain ways. They do when they travel, which is the weird thing. But when they're back at home, they don't. So it's really just family time and going to the pub, going to a restaurant, that sort of thing. We did have a few more gay clubs many, many years ago, but they seem to all become more mainstream now. That had to be a bit of a rude awakening coming from what you were enjoying in the UK. It was indeed, it was a bit of a culture shock. And I bet you got used to it. You got used to it. Because our focus sort of changed more to our careers than it was to maybe our interests, if you like. But it was a new place and you take it on as you learn to live in a new place and you experience different things while you were here. So that was then. And then you get a little bit bored of doing that. And then you try and see what else is around you. But traveling around from Hong Kong is actually quite easy. Taiwan is close, Japan is close, Bangkok is close. And they have very different lifestyles there, which is of interest. I can't help but think that if you were accustomed to being able to go out and be with the kink folk or the leather crowd and suddenly not have that available basically at all to you, that had to be a very difficult transition. Moving to Hong Kong was a bit of a culture shock. It was also a, it was also like a, I would almost say a new beginning to experience different types of things. I was very fortunate that I could travel a lot. So I did get to go to Europe, the United States, those sort of places and almost get my fix from those places. What do the gay boys do in Hong Kong today if the bars you mentioned are no longer there? You go to restaurants, you go to bars. You know, I think places have evolved so much with apps and with online things. You don't have to go to places which were specifically for gay people to go and meet gay people. So unfortunately, a lot of the gay places were never as nice as the straight places. So, you know, if you are trying to hook up with somebody you've done it on your app, you know, you go somewhere nice. Okay. Coming closer to your actual title, how that evolved. Okay. Well, that was an interesting thing. So I've always had an interest in the sort of the leather lifestyle, the king glass style, that sort of thing. And I was looking around to see who else in the community has that. Now, the only places that you could do that would be on sort of on Recon or on Grindr or on, you know, any of the other apps like that. And there is quite a large community of people who have an interest. Now, I have to be very specific in what I mean have an interest that may mean they just have a harness. And that may be what they've sort of dabbled into. But then I dug a little bit further and I found that there were actually some guys here which were very much into that sort of lifestyle. So I started talking to them and started finding out if there was a way that we could sort of create a community if you like or social. Everybody was very on board with it, but the restriction was that it would never be a public thing. It could always be a private thing. So for instance, you know, people would meet at a hotel room, have a few drinks, get dressed up, and that would be it. And being Western and coming from what I'm known, that was just quite strange. So I thought that we could do something more than that. I mean, you didn't have to, okay, we sort of relaxed it, but you didn't have to get dressed up, the weather here is terrible anyway that you would never get dressed up. The idea was that we'd form a social and we would come together every, I don't know, maybe every couple of months and like people could be in a safe space or situation where they could learn from other people. You know, it's very difficult when the only information you have is the internet and the internet is not gonna give you the information that you can from real people. And you know, when just thinking about my experience when I went to the UK and I met people who showed me things and told me things and led me through a safe space, these guys don't have that yet. And I think it's very important that it is something that they need. And if somebody has an interest in anything, they should have a safe space where they could actually learn about it or speak to other people who have a very similar interest. And if you're not part of the online apps or those sort of communication tools, there is no other way. And I think that's really sad. I think that was a sad discovery and I wanted to try and almost bring people together to create that space that they could actually then meet people. And you know, not only hook up for sex or whatever, but you know, start making friends and start building a little bit of a community. How has that come along? It has not gone as well as I planned it to. What does that mean? Well, I was hoping that there would be a group which would meet more regularly and we could do things, we could organize events or functions or you know, we could get people who are interested in the community to join and you know, you can discuss experiences and that sort of thing. But it's mainly become a almost like a drinks night every couple of months where people get together and it's really just a group of friends. As a Western person, we cannot judge that because that's not our culture. You mentioned that you don't have a cookie cutter scene there, but at least there was something that enabled you to develop this title. Tell us about that. I thought it would be a good idea if we could create a community and almost show the world that we do exist. And maybe open the door to and just let everyone know that there is something happening here. And maybe idealistically, I thought that it would open up more of a community here and people would become more expressive and you know, enjoy themselves and inform a community. So what I did was I went along and I contacted everybody that I could that I found and spoke to them. And I had a very honest conversation asking them, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to approach it. Are they interested? Well, what did you want to do? How did you approach it? I approached it saying that, you know there are these events and there are these organizations, if you like, and there is other places around the world. And I think that if we, you know, develop something here we can be part of that. And that was basically my approach. You know, maybe do something more sort of international. And that's where the IML thing came on. But let's, before we get to IML tell me more about the development of the title there. In the traditional sense, there was no, there was no bar. There was no competition. There was no selection of people and there was no title as such. This was a creation from a community as a spokesperson. So, but what about internationally when people heard Hong Kong Leatherman wouldn't the concept of an Asian person come to mind? What did people have to say when they met you? Well, that was very interesting. And that was something that was a bit of a concern and a bit of a worry. But I did a fantastic job of marching the whole thing and, you know, I got out there. I put myself out there. I put a website together. You know, but there was a lot of conversations that were going on and, you know, when I arrived it was, oh, you're the guy from Hong Kong. And that was it. I never, I never ever had anybody who questioned why I wasn't Asian. Oh, okay. Which was very surprising. And anyway, I don't think that's important. I lived here for 17 years. Hong Kong is my home. I can represent it. Ideally, an Asian person should have been the first one or the first participant to go to IML from Asia. But... Now, what have you been able to do with this title? I think there's been more of an awareness that there is this sort of lifestyle presence in this part of the world. I haven't done as much as I could have done only because there was a language barrier. But there has been awareness created. And I think more people are getting out there and wanting to try things. What was your preparation for being able to go to IML? I did this all on my own back. I had to sort out all my travel, all my gear, my sash, everything. I needed to do that all myself. So I took on that whole thing by myself and basically put myself forward for that. So everything was done by me. I... Which was a great experience. I designed a logo. Created a brand. Got it registered. Created the title. And off I went. Tell me about IML for you. How was that experience? IML was a great experience. It is... I think it's a brilliant organization. The competition was fantastic. The contestants... It was quite weird. I did a photo shoot with a guy there before the competition. He said, I don't know what it is. There's something in the water. There's something that makes you drink, but you will feel it. You will feel this camaraderie. You will feel a bond with these guys. And it was very true. You do. My only criticism with the whole thing was that it was very US-centric. A little bit European. It's not international. And I think it needs to do more to become international. It doesn't represent an international levy scene. Tell me more about that. How does it not do that? Well, if you looked at the contestants, most of them were from the bars and clubs within the States. We did have them from Europe. One guy from Australia. And then myself from Asia. Quite a few guys from South America. But I think the proportion of local American to the rest of Europe or the rest of the world was disproportionate. But again, I mean, it's an American organization. It's a business. It wants to carry on and doing its function. But I don't truly believe it's an international representation. How do you feel that your local title and your IML experience changed you as a person? I don't think it's changed me as a person. I think it's given me, it's given me the confidence to live my truth. Now, how was the reception from your local community and your local group after IML? There hasn't been a, you know, an interest in order for somebody to follow on. I'm hoping that maybe in time that would happen. But like I say, I think the community has to evolve from what it is at the moment. Somebody needs to see value of doing that. And I think if we can create value, somebody will buy into that and they will then want to move it forward. Do you mean finding a successor for your title? Is that what you mean? Sure, absolutely. And I mean, I don't believe that the successor has to be in Hong Kong. Why can't it be an Asian guy? Somebody from anywhere in Asia. Okay. Well, I guess I would think if it's Mr. Hong Kong Leather, it would be somebody local, but who am I? It could be, but it could be, you know, why not, why not create something which is, you know, more, I mean, it could be from Spain, it could be from Taiwan, anywhere, but I happen to be in Hong Kong. Yes. What was your best, what was the best part of IML for you? The bond of the brotherhood. That was very special. It was something that I've never experienced before. You felt, you felt as though you were this community, you felt a belonging. And that has continued through the stay. I'm still in contact with all the guys that, you know, we're with my group. And it's, like I say, there was, I don't know, something in the water, but it's, there's a real sense of pride and commitment and community. Given you had the COVID restrictions and whatever geographic restrictions, what would you like to have done, or do you still want to do as Mr. Hong Kong letter? I think if people get confident that they can actually step out of their comfort zones and know that there are other people with the same interests, that would be the ultimate goal. As I said before at the very beginning, I think if you're new to the scene and you don't know very much and you want to learn the best way to learn is from people who have experience and know what, you know, what they're doing. And I think if that can happen, that would be brilliant. Now, one thing I often like to ask is what is the biggest misconception about you? Okay, the biggest misconception about me is that I think as you age, you grow into your age and you take on a persona or personality which might not really be who you are. And, you know, when I'm all dressed up in all my gear from head to toe, I could be a very different person to who I am sitting right in front of you. And I think that probably is the most, is the misconception. What you look like and who you are may not be the same thing. Well, Craig Menzies, I thank you very much for a wonderful interview and for participating in Inside Leather History at Byerside Chat.