 I do believe that we will be safer than many of the grocery stores, despite the fact that they're pushing hard to get safe systems in place too. And part of that is that we're outside, that we can easily control access and the environment in a way that's challenging inside of a store environment. What we have found is that over the last couple of weeks there's been a pretty increase in people signing up with farmers directly for coming to the market and pre-ordering, and that it's good because the farmers in our market anyway are the vast majority of them are really dependent upon these markets for their year-round economic liability. Without it, they're not going to be in business. They're not going to be able to pay taxes. They're not going to be able to pay their farm workers. So the farmers need a plan now. They needed it a month ago because they're in the midst of their growing season already. In order to deliver spinach this week, they had to plant it months ago. They had to overwinter it. They need cash now to be able to plant seeds so that we can have tomatoes and egg plants in the summer. None of these products that we can get locally are readily available in local supermarkets. I know that, for instance, I do a lot of shopping at the Hunger Mountain Co-op, but even there I can't get the quality and locally grown produce that's available at the farmer's market. So it really is essential. I'm thrilled to hear Abby's comments that there will be some guidance coming out even late this afternoon. We're ready to move and implement as strategically as we can on Saturday morning and have what we're terming is a market-sponsored pickup location. We'd love to have face-to-face pickup as well, if that's possible. If you have any questions, I'm happy to answer them. Yeah, Abby, what do you think about John's suggestions? Those things that you've already talked about or will have an opportunity to deal with? Yeah, so John, I do appreciate the update on what Capital City Farmers Market is thinking of, and I know that your market has been frustrated at times with the information coming from our agency, and I'm sorry for that. I mean, I can speak from personal experience having been a farmer's market vendor for many years as a producer, and I know the importance of markets to kind of build your customer base and test your products and grow your business. So I personally can relate to both you and the Capital City and other farmer's market vendors and markets support staff. So I think much of what you're describing is captured in this updated farmer's market guidance. I think I'm reluctant to give you quote unquote approval to move forward, and I feel like that information will come tomorrow morning once we have a final version approved by the governor's office. And I think, again, this speaks to that desire for black and white and the fact that we're going to function in a little bit of a gray area even going forward. The agency of agriculture is not going to be in a position to approve or grant kind of permission. The process is going to be, the guidance will be provided. It'll be clearly communicated. Folks will have access to it, and the expectation is that people will follow the guidance and adhere to the expectations. So that's the benefit of this next phase of increased clarity around what are the specific expectations. And there will be some individual market questions that are going to still come up. And I think that between a conversation with commerce and the agency of agriculture, we'll still have to do our best to clarify and interpret that guidance to meet individual markets questions and needs. So I don't expect that we're going to unveil guidance because it's not 13 pages long, it's one or two pages long. So it's not going to answer every permutation that every market is going to have starting today through August. So it's really designed to just give guidance and information for right now, right immediately. And that may change going forward. We suspect that it will change going forward. And it will also evolve based upon the parameters of the stay home, stay safe, executive order over time. So I know that's not that exact answer that you hope to hear, but it's the best answer that I can give right now. Thank you. Abby, I'm wondering in many grocery stores, you know, face to face, when you walk through the checkout, not that I've been there, but I've been told that they put up like plexiglass. And I'm wondering if, if like John was saying face to face, if at the counter where they're going to have or be able to put the I'll get you Matty, where they're going to put the, you know, the one pound bag of spinach, if they add a plexiglass up there, so they're really can see each other, but they aren't directly, you know, face to face. If something like that, you know, is already happening. And maybe Matty, you've got an answer to that. Yeah, we have some thoughts and I don't want to interrupt. I really appreciate the discussion, but I didn't know if I was still on your screen or if you can see me. So yeah, we at NOFA have some specific guidelines that we are proposing that I think align really clearly with what John is talking about and social and we have very specific guidelines for that, including eliminating entertainment activities, children's activities, any seating for consumption of prepared food, that kind of thing, as well as some of those really, you know, strict social distancing guidelines and specific types of like physical barriers that vendors can place between themselves and their customers. I think that these guidelines that we have put together, and I will say also that we really, we've been in close touch with the agency and really, really appreciate their hard work on this and their collaboration. But we are continuing to push for a little bit more of a modified market in the way that John is talking about with limited person-to-person contact in a similar way that grocery stores are allowed to operate currently. We are, I'm glad to hear that the agency is considering how to include access for Snapshoppers in these guidelines, because that I will say is one of our biggest concerns with this sort of online pre-order site pickup model that Snapshoppers are not able to use their benefits online currently. So that's really critical for us that Snapshoppers are able to have access. But in addition, we really feel strongly that markets can operate safely with these clear guidelines in place, which are much more in depth than, you know, just to do an online order and curbside pickup model. But we've seen these markets working in other parts of the country, even in New York City, frankly, the green markets are able to operate with this very careful, limited person-to-person contact model. And if they can do it in New York City, which is really the epicenter of this virus right now, we feel strongly that it can happen in Vermont. So I've shared with the committee what NOFA is proposing in terms of these modifications, which are going to some pretty great detail. And we would love to see markets able to adapt these guidelines, you know, and if it feels like the best possible approach, submit those health and safety protocols on an individual basis to be approved. And I also want to share that we have a consultant on hand from the Farmers Market Coalition, which is a national organization, to help us in supporting markets with this transition. So we have some expertise available to help markets meet these guidelines. So those guidelines are available for members of the committee to see. And if you want to look through them right now, Linda is able to put them up on the screen. I'm not sure that that's necessary, but we do feel that this limited person-to-person contact model is possible. And we'd like to see that allowed sooner than later. Yeah, we just really feel strongly that markets are a critical food access point. And if we can do this in a limited, you know, careful person-to-person way, we don't see any reason that markets should be being treated this differently from grocery stores, which I will say in my own personal experience, I respect so much the work that grocery stores and workers and shelf shoppers are doing right now to keep food available. But I will also say that there is not a lot of consistency across stores in what practices are being used. In my town, for example, there are not plexiglass shields and cashiers are not wearing gloves and masks. And so we're proposing that at markets there are much clearer guidelines that all markets are required to follow. I also want to say that as the parent organization to the Vermont Farmers Market Association, NOFA Vermont feels really strongly that we have an opportunity to do great direct communication with individual markets to share these guidelines in ways that there may not be as direct a communication line to all of the grocery stores across the state, for example. So we do feel like we have those communication channels and that we can ensure that all markets are aware of these guidelines and able to put plans in place to meet them. Any questions? Sounds good. Are there questions from other members of the committee? Anthony? Yeah, you're on mute, Anthony. You're muted. That was Linda doing that, I think. Oh. I just want to, you know, I think this is good. I'm wondering, mostly kind of for Abby, I guess, because John and Maddie laid out specific ideas, pretty specific ideas. And I'm just wondering, Abby, if you think that your folks are close together on what you think, I know you can't say for sure what the guidance is going to say, but the stuff that Maddie's outlining and that John outlined in a letter to us a while ago seemed pretty comprehensive. And I'm just wondering if those are things that are all on the table for you, Abby. Yeah. So, Senator, I think they're on the table. I think the question and the difference may be around the timeline in which they're implemented. And what I mean by that is I think there are probably be some stricter expectations for the immediate implementation for farmers markets that's beyond what John and Maddie shared. And again, I don't know if that will be in effect for through the end of April and that once market season for the summer time starts to really pick up in May that we can shift to that slightly more relaxed option. I'm presuming that that's what will happen. And so I think the hard part is going to be being comfortable with what we have for the immediacy of where we are right now and communicating that so that there's crystal clear understanding of what's permissible today and then making the shift once either the executive order changes or the guidance for markets and other businesses can be implemented that's slightly different than today. And I think that when that will happen, I don't think that any of us or even the governor or his staff are able to anticipate that quite yet. And I think it's all going to be dependent upon what we see around the COVID cases and in circumstances around pandemic flattening curve. I know you already said this, I know, but once these guidance comes out, we will no longer be doing this case by case basis, basically people just get the guidance. So adhering to the guidance, they can go ahead. Unless they have specific questions that they want to ask you. Yeah, and I think we'll still welcome both at commerce or at ag the specific questions as people will have kind of permutations and nuances that they are going to want feedback on. And we expect that and we'll do our very best to give again clear and consistent feedback. I think the bigger challenge is going to be, you know, if the guidance says prohibited person to person contact and only preordering for curbside pickup, which is my guess, that's different than what both Nova and John have proposed. It's not that different, but it is, it is a slight modification. I certainly hope that you folks can work together on this and get these fresh fruits and veggies out to our people as easily as possible and safe as possible. Are there any other questions? And Maddie, you got another one? Yeah, I just want to add a point that I didn't include earlier, which John touched on a little bit, but I think I just want to stress that one of our concerns with the sort of online preorder and curbside pickup model is just access for those tools to certain folks in the community who really, you know, are potentially at risk in particular ways. We're concerned that, you know, elderly folks or limited access to the internet are really going to be cut out of an online preorder model. And I think those are the folks who were really trying to ensure have access through allowing this limited person to person contact model. We definitely don't want to be supporting a proposal that, you know, places a greater disadvantage on folks without necessary resources like access to the internet, for example, to be able to participate. So that's just another concern I really want to highlight. John, you had a question, but I think Abby, your hand was up first. Yeah, let me just, I just want to respond to what just for further clarification again. So I feel that we're in a tight spot and that I don't have final guidance that I can reference right now during this call. I'd hoped that during this committee meeting we would have been able to, but unfortunately we can't. My understanding though is that it would not just be online order, so you would not need to just have access to the internet, but it would need to be a preorder. So you could have a phone conversation with a farmer, and you could even do payment on site. So that could be cash, that could be check, and that's the avenue that we're thinking should be able to work for SNAP and EBT cards. So again, and people can, people don't have to drive up to the market, curbside pickup location, they can ride a bike, they can walk there. So there's other kind of assurances to do our very best to make sure that these would be accessible. This arrangement would be acceptable to, to, you know, most if not all citizens or for moners. Yeah, thank you. John, yes. Is that Chris? Yes, I have a question. I'm happy to go after John. Yeah. Okay, John, you're up. Thank you. And Abby, I really appreciate, even though you can't give us guidance today that the inference is there, that we may be able to preserve some sort of basically preordering on site, which is what we have in mind. And we won't have plexiglass, but we'll sort of do the six foot dance back and forth across a table that I think, you know, people could say that there would be a menu of items that are available. I could preorder my spinach. I could pay for it. Somebody could pick it up from the farmer, bring it to the table. I could then pick it up from the table. I think all that can be done quite easily and very safely and leave that option open to farmers to sell additional produce and customers who don't have access to preordering or who forget to preorder the ability to have access to that food. So I hope that's the way it turns out tomorrow morning. Thank you. Well, sometimes John, you have to use your imagination a little bit. Chris. Yeah, Abby, thank you for all the work you're doing. And I guess in some ways we're lucky that it's just the very beginning of April here. And I'm hopeful we can sort this out for our farmers and consumers. I'm struggling to understand the justification of how I can go shop at a supermarket in a confined aisle doing my best to keep away from people, but that I can't similarly walk around a park that has tables appropriately spread out and shop that way. I mean, there just is a real leap of logic that I guess I'm not seeing. And I wonder if you can help us understand that to the extent that we're not treating these two food shopping experiences the same. Yeah, good question, Senator. And we're hearing that a lot these days. So I'll give a point. But if Steve Collier is still on, I know that Steve has done a lot of thinking on this as well. I think one difference would be at a typically oriented farmer's market, you're not able to have interactions with just one person, like one checkout person, which would be typically the way a farmer's market, I mean, typically the way a grocery store arrangement is that you just have one point of contact at your checkout. But it's true, there are other people kind of in your vicinity shopping, but it just sort of speaks to the nature of individualized transactions at individual tables at a farmer's market that's very, very different than a grocery store experience. Senator Stardow, I don't know if you want to encourage Steve to share his thoughts on this topic as well as he's as he's noodled on it for a while. Steve's working on this too? Yes, thankfully. Yes, Senator. And good morning. And as the lawyer, I get to come in and be the bad guy. So I'm used to this. So I do think it, I mean, Abby's done a great job explaining it, everyone's points are so incredibly valid. And I think it's, it's helpful to have a little bit of the backdrop of exactly what's going on. And that is, and we all know this, but the whole point of the executive order is to keep people apart. And that can't happen perfectly because we still need to do a lot of things, including eating. So that that is the principle point that sort of frames all of this dialogue is, whether people are apart. So to the extent possible, the governor wants to keep everyone apart. Since that's not possible to do that, we have critical services that are defined. And when those critical services are implicated, then we do allow limited person to person contact. And so there's a lot of confusion about this, what it means person to person and whether social distancing applies or whether no contact, the only, the only way that the, that the social distancing kicks in is if you are essential, if you are an essential business, then you are allowed to have person to person contact. But you have to employ all of the social distancing techniques that we're now familiar with that we never heard of two months ago. And you also have to telecommute whenever possible. So agriculture is absolutely essential. Agriculture is not being thwarted or stopped in any direct way. A farmer can produce and a farmer can sell. The market raises a different construct because what it does is it gathers people together. And it's a great question about the difference between supermarkets and farmers markets. And you can make an easy argument that there is no difference. One potential difference is that while everyone goes to the supermarket, not necessarily everyone goes to farmers markets and most people don't get everything they need at farmers markets. They also go to supermarkets. So there's at least the question if you have an open farmers market, are you creating an additional avenue for people to get food so that people are both going to farmers markets and going to supermarkets and thereby increasing their exposure to other people. Another issue, which I don't know whether or not this has been a factor in the thinking so far or not, but in a normal supermarket, you don't have your farmers in the middle of everyone. In a farmers market, you're introducing by the very nature of it, farmers to the consumers, which we all of course, in ordinary times, want to do. There's a question about whether right now, when we're in the middle of a global pandemic, you want to put farmers in the middle of the community because that does create some additional risk for them. And whether or not that's something that you want to do or don't want to do, and I don't pretend to have the answer, but I think that's something that's worth considering if you're taking farmers out of their normal place where they're fairly isolated and sticking them in the middle of everyone, whether that's potentially to their detriment. So, I mean, those are some of the many issues that are arising, but also please keep in mind that when you can't have person-to-person contact, you can still do everything as long as you're not having person-to-person contact. And that's where the curbside delivery, all of these other alternate mechanisms like restaurants doing take out and delivery only. Like even if you're not a critical business, you can continue to function provided you're not having any person-to-person contact. And where a lot of confusion has arisen on that ground is the person-to-person contact is not only between business and customer, it's between employees. So, if you have, you know, 15 people in a greenhouse all working to sell flowers, like to homeowners right now, the agency of commerce has asked people not to do that. You can maintain your plants, but you can't get 15 people together all working together to produce flowers to homeowners because at this juncture that's not considered a critical service in the middle of the pandemic. Now, that guidance is also subject to change, but it's all very nuanced and it's difficult and at its core what really everyone is trying to do is to make sure that people aren't having contact with others unless it's important. Does that make sense? Well, it does, but maybe we could shut the supermarket down and just let everybody go to the farmer market. Chris, does that help you at all? It helps me understand the thinking. I can't say I'm convinced. I really, you know, there are little Asian markets in my neighborhood. We let them stay open because they sell food as we should and I think we're making a really odd distinction here of kind of what is quote-unquote the normal way of people getting food and what isn't. I guess I'm not convinced and I hope we can keep working on this because I think it's pretty important, especially given the pandemic. Yeah, it's very important. John? I appreciate also the comments and I think it's curious that we're trading the help of agricultural workers in middle of California who are growing and producing and sending produce to Vermont for in exchange for, you know, keeping the farmers out of the farmer's market so that they can be healthy. I think there's way to preserve face-to-face essential face-to-face interchange without endangering anybody beyond what is reasonable. I just do. Well, I think we want to get on to the community gardens issue and whether or not that's going to be a problem as we move forward. Has there been any comment on Abbey in regards to allowing them to operate and set up or not? Yeah, so maybe again Steve and I can address this one together and maybe one last comment that I might make related to Senator Pearson and John's comments are that farmers can still sell food and I think that's a really important reminder here that we're not saying that a farm can't sell food at this time. They absolutely can. I think the guidance around a farmer's market is more of some guidance around what the sale of that food looks like in a public location for pickup where there's other people and other vendors and other farmers but we have great success and wonderful stories of farmers that are figuring out how to do online payment other farms that are doing sales out of their farm stand or their garage or their front stoop to customers that are looking to buy product and we recognize that that's not as convenient and that may be more of a limitation for the elderly or for people that don't drive or for some of the SNAP recipients. So again, I think there's value in having this market allowance with stricter guidelines but I do think it's really important to acknowledge that farmers can still sell food and consumers can still access food directly from farms. So the community garden piece again I'll share a little bit and then Steve has had some communication with agency of commerce as recent as this morning. We've sort of looked at it as it's a place where people can still garden and till soil and have their hands on the dirt and it just may be something that they need to do while practicing social distancing and it's not really the jurisdiction of the agency of agriculture because generally that food is not being sold that's generally food that people may be just growing for themselves flowers you know food items for their own individual family but I think the issue has always been about wanting to limit that person to person contact and if you're able to achieve that with social distancing um that that may be 100 acceptable. The Vermont Community Garden Network has some great resources on their website about how to do that how to manage hand washing and practice social distancing and and take into consideration public safety. Yeah but Steve was there something you wanted to add or something that I missed? Uh Steve you're muted. Can you hear me now senator? Yes. Okay thank you just just briefly I think the bottom line is we don't know exactly the status of community gardens yet you know we feel that they could be permissible with social distancing as Abby said it's not really specifically an agency of agriculture question and it's it's um I think the big question will ultimately be is is having a community garden does that create a gathering of 10 people so that if you allowed more than 10 people so would that be an issue and then the other question is and it's I just don't think it's been answered yet because it hasn't arisen with any urgency just yet but we are talking about it is um is it a permissible reason to leave your home because underlying all of this there are outlined reasons why each of us can leave our home and exercise is probably the one that this would fit into right now and the question is is um gardening and your community exercise and I don't think that's been interpreted just yet. Any other questions for uh in regards to the farmer markets or community gardens Anthony? It's not really a question I just want to remind Abby to please send us a copy of the guidelines when you share them with others send it to Linda and Linda can distribute them to the committee because I was going to suggest that I would like to be on the call tomorrow morning but and I remember and I think the Senate's going to be on the floor tomorrow morning I'll believe it or not so 9 30 Anthony. Right so even with all this zooming we can still only be in one place at a time so I won't be able to make the meeting with the farmer's markets folks but I'd like to get the hold of the guidance as soon as possible. Happy to share it there's no reason why we wouldn't um and I can send it to Linda and just for clarification Senator Polina the call with farmer's markets will be from 8 to 9 a.m. tomorrow morning so if you're feeling up in early and chipper and want to join before you're on the floor that you're certainly welcome. Okay it depends what else I got going on I don't know about the shipper part. Yeah um any anything else in regards uh Rose? Yeah I just want a clarification on the guard the community gardens thing um because I'm looking at the guidance at the Vermont community garden network and Abby and Steve um I know it's not generally under the purview of agency of agriculture but I'm I'm still unclear uh will there be guidance coming out what should we be telling people I I've been trying to share as much with my constituents through regular communications and but I don't want to send them this link to this guidance on the community gardens network if it's gonna if it's not what you are recommending or you're not sure if community gardens should be happening what what should we be telling people uh Steve thank you senator so as Abby um pointed out I've briefly looked at what the Vermont community gardens network posted as well and I think all of the suggestions are perfectly great suggestions I think from the state's perspective and implementing the executive order the question just hasn't been answered yet so you know definitely if anyone is out in a community garden they should be uh practicing practicing social distancing without question that's something we should all be doing at all times whether or not a community garden that has 25 people potentially gardening simultaneously is something that's permissible under the executive order just can't um answer that yet we do realize that it's an important question and as Abby mentioned we have posed it to the agency of commerce who's been working tirelessly trying to get out um information and I think another important thing for people to just think about is they're trying very hard and and we're helping them then in that endeavor trying to not to be answering individual questions because we don't want people who have contacted the state to have some sort of advantage or disadvantage as opposed to everyone else who may not be directly contacting the state but instead is reading the guidance so what we're really trying to do is publish guidance that's as clear as possible and it's never clear enough as we make up this new economy on the fly um but we're trying to give people guidance that can be uniformly understood and followed instead of specifically saying to one person yes you can do this no you can't do that and it's not that we don't want to but with the number of businesses and people who are uh involved it's very difficult to do that so absolutely if you're out in a community garden you should be social distancing whether or not that is a reason that the governor envisions for leaving your house right now we're just not certain yeah thank you Dave um so I guess as long as there isn't 25 working in the garden maybe two or three or four different ends of the field maintain their distancing uh they're they're okay to go Steve as senator you know I I think at most right now what would happen is if some local officer thought that wasn't appropriate they might talk to the people in the garden I you know I don't think it would be angry growing your own food we all want people to be growing their own food it's just that question of what exactly are you allowed to communicate to be close to others with right now and so we do hope to answer that question more clearly but if people were in their garden two or three at a time socially distanced I mean I you know I think that um at most that would be a conversation to be had right now yeah very good Ruth does that sort of answer your question yeah sure it's sort of I mean I think this is a whole a whole new world we're all trying to figure out and the answers are not always clear so that's I I get that that's fine thank you yeah any other questions in regards to the community gardens and if not and farmers yes matty I'm gonna I'm gonna leave you all because I think we're done with the the topics but I just want to make a closing point um in reference to you know Steve's statement about you know us creating this new economy I really feel like I have to say this and I didn't because I sometimes assume that it goes without saying but I really feel like in this new economy that we are creating especially in this crisis it's very important that food security food sovereignty access to food access to starts for people to be able to grow their own food even if they are not commercial farmers should really be centralized within the policies that we're creating right now and that's it's so critical to no permission that I would feel remiss if I didn't stress that point and I think that's just sort of our overall comment um on some of these policy decisions coming down from the administration that all of these food access points including access to home gardeners to grow starts should be looked at as critical pieces of our food sovereignty um that we take really seriously and really want to be preserving as essential as everything else so thank you so much thank you