 So it's no secret that the going is stuff for open source Projects and specifically the monetization aspects around open source The business models are complex. There are excellent projects that have you know not been sustainable like rethink DB's and ones That have had to close source some other code like influx DB And it's really a complicated undertaking Not only you know, is it a competitive landscape out there? There's you know diversity of business models There's the distro model There are disruptors that come in all the time and after all the dust settles the code is wide open and Anybody can take it and have it and do whatever they want with it and they do And AWS is known to be a beast at rolling out services like that They take open source projects that become popular and they have a large market share roll out managed services And it becomes difficult for the smaller open source projects to compete with that kind of a model and They're not alone with that Facebook has a huge my sequel operation that they've created a custom distro for that They haven't contributed back to the community with and this has become the kind of a trend and I'd like to explore what you know open source can do in order to kind of combat this kind of competitive landscape the diversity of business models out there Kind of ask my panel of experts here to give some insight on to how you know, you the open source can continue to thrive in such a Competitive and complex business landscape. So I'm sure it's been I Lead the open-stack community in Israel. I lead the DevOps community in Israel. I lead the cloudify community And open source is near and dear to my heart I'm actually stepping in for Nati Shalom our fearless CTO who couldn't be here. So I hope I do this panel justice so without further ado, I want to Introduce my excellent panel of experts here that have quite a track record in the open source sphere They are much more knowledgeable on than me on this topic and I'd like to hear their insight on Where they think that all this is going and how we can You know thrive in the open source sphere. So we have Monty Taylor Former ptl of the infrastructure project at open stack One of the core developers and former on formerly on the board allow you to introduce yourself and Highlight the key aspects and the things that are near and dear to your heart in the open source So hi. Yeah, I'm I'm Monty. I basically have no voice left because it's Wednesday That's how that works Mr.. And said I I've been around open stack for quite some time Generally speaking since before it was open stack. So so quite quite a while As long as it is humanly possible to to be associated with the project I'd also sit on the technical committee and and in addition to the other things What's near and dear to my heart I before Before opensack it I worked on my school actually and I and I'm gonna I'm gonna disagree with you real briefly just to make sure that we have a lively lively panel here For whatever it's worth Mark Callahan and the in the MySQL team at Facebook actually Have released their their MySQL work as my my rocks DB recently No, it's it's been out for a bit And and the the fun bit there is is that even before being acquired by Sun and then acquired by Oracle MySQL has had a long history of not taking Mark Callahan's patches going back to when he was at Google So at this point, he's probably just given up. I stand corrected But I there is an ongoing trend of kind of oh totally Yeah, I know it's it's a good point in general But I just wanted to give mark a shout out because he he's tried his best When he was at Google to get some patches into MySQL and MySQL is like We don't care Alex Friedland CEO of Morantis also has quite a track record and one of the leading distros for OpenStack has a widespread experience with open source projects So for you to introduce yourself even further Thanks. Yes, so we started with OpenStack In April of 2011 when it was already open stack and we've done some projects even before but we committed to OpenStack Very early So Morantis has become Probably one of the leading companies and probably the last standing independent company I mean that that was built around OpenStack and Speaking of business models and monetization, you know, we we came close last year to having a nine digit, you know Ravenous dream. So there is a way to monetize It's challenging and I think the business models constantly evolve and it's all about execution and the world in the business models and interestingly, I think that Amazon Contrary to the people's beliefs is actually the most successful open source company out there Because this is gonna be a good panel Successful business wise I'm not suggesting that I just don't agree there an open source company Well, they are because they're consuming open source that all of us are developing without contributing anything back and then monetizing it as a service I call the leech So speaking of the business models, right? So the trick is, you know Amazon has Educated the world about what's possible and then how do we evolve our business models to not be leeches and still make money This is what this, you know what our life is all about Indeed, Christian Carrasco CEO of umbrella serial CTO was a cloud advisor to tap join a few other major organizations Feel free to introduce yourself further. Yeah. Hi guys Yeah, I've been working with open source technologies. I guess since the late 90s, but professionally, I started my first company in 2001 and we it was all open source technologies at the time and It's well, I've seen it evolve and grow and I've seen people take it and run with it and close it like Tivo and And we've seen a lot of people do what Amazon's doing right now, but what I really see is Amazon's really giving back And in their business model, they're giving engineers what they wanted all along that we didn't provide Which is the ease the cohesiveness and but the way they're doing it is I consider it sort of like the modern-day crack dealer for engineers and so they give us and our engineers these tools that people love but then They can't when the day they want to leave they can't so you can check out anytime you want But you can't ever leave and so you can't just grab your source code because you it's got all their logic Inside your code. So when you try to leave Amazon to another cloud provider, it's a pretty painful effort Boom, I'm loving this panel already. This is getting good. We're just at the introductions. Okay, our president PM at Cloudify Leading the Apache aria project as well formerly at Red Hat long-standing open source experience Go ahead around opens open source in general and open stack. I think since 2012 also worked for reddit for For a while and you know for me, it sounds like we're trying to Understand as our overall industry where you know, what's the right level of of competition? Where you know as you see various vendors consuming open source providing services and selling them to their customers But you know some of them are contributing back to the core project. Some of them are not contributing back other other guys You know just Contrary in certain portion of it. So again, we're we're just trying to find out, you know, what's still the right level of competing versus versus Collaborating with these vendors and you know and essentially monetizing because by the end of the day open source is not sustainable again Companies are going to die because they you know cannot finance their operations. So that's a key element I think it's important to us for us to solve the industry Thank you and Flavio Percoco one of the leading developers in the open stack community on the technical committee Has been quite an active community member core maintainer and has been doing a lot of an excellent work in the open source industry Yeah, so, um, yeah, I'm Flavio. I work at Red Hat I think I've been in Open source forever open source taught me how to program actually and then I started consuming libraries and then I started contributing to them And I'm not red hat and I'm sit on the technical committee. I work on open cycle many many different things and Sure, I agree some of things these guys have said so far about collaborating, but I'm not even gonna mention this other company Like Monty. I don't agree. They do actually open source and Have very strong opinions about how they do things. So We like strong opinions So just a snapshot of what Amazon services look like, you know, they roll them out all the time The the projects get popular her dupes and now elastic search, etc. This is probably a pretty old snapshot is the truth But they constantly roll out managed services as soon as the project gets a little bit interesting And generally speaking just the overall, you know, kind of what I call the disruption cycle or what Nati Shalom calls the disruption cycle Is that you know, you get a really cool tool it struggles to gain adoption by the time it gets to the point Where it's gonna make monetization something else cool comes out and it kind of disrupts that tool or its competition It's already a vicious and tough cycle and then you have, you know You have this whole scenario where you have your code wide open and it becomes even more difficult So the most obvious question of all to begin with is why even go open source? Why is open source important? Let's start with why you believe in open source and why you're in this So, um, I mean, I'm the I'm the the typical story I'd optimist although you wouldn't know it from my Screaming matches at people at conferences But I I believe that it's the the ethical thing to do I think that I think that the the world of of engineering and computing as Historically built off of off of the shoulders of the people that that come before it everybody that thinks that they have Invented something new and fancy and exciting. They're full of crap None of none of these things are are are revolutionary innovative They're the next small piece on the shoulder of millions of people that did work before them But we we've built in our our culture like a kind of ego worship obsessive Thing where where everybody is, you know vying for for sort of total supremacy at the at the at the cost of everybody else And I personally whatever I can do to to I don't know Retard to that by just a little bit if I can if I can do that to make users lives a little bit better People who are trying to accomplish things lives a little better if I can accomplish even a shred of that in the in kind of the the base of the the onslaught of the the Gaping maw of the system Then that's what I'm gonna do. I recognize that's not necessarily the motivation of of everybody But for me, I would like to leave the world slightly better than it was when I got here So I actually subscribed to the ethical Concepts that Monty just verbalized but I add to it another layer because first and foremost I'm a business person and Pragmatist this way and We are living in the times Where the speed of change that is Happening in front of our eyes is disruptive to our human Timelines because we always were living through that, you know the exponential change But I think we're getting to the point compared to our own Lives and ability to change as humans that we're kind of you know at the knee of the curve and when that happens We have to be able to come up with innovation very very fast and the Timelines that are required for proprietary people like the VMware's an example to build a technology commercialize and make it large Is too slow and so what that means is you need a huge community to continue to innovate And there is no way to do it in proprietary anymore And so open source went from being a disruptor of the proprietary solutions of the past to the innovation engine that is bringing in necessary innovation to the world and it becomes an essential part and that's why the open source revolution is happening and harnessing it in a commercially viable way is very important because it will continue to Fuel the innovation but you know the types of problems were solved in now could not be solved by one company It requires thousands of people working together with the right ethical approach So that's kind of where we are an open source. Why it's necessary I agree the ability to adopt new technology is what fuels innovation. Absolutely Basically to channel not his voice who's not here. The only constant is change, right? He always says that and I Subscribe to the no lock-in approach, you know that you guys promote so well that whenever we design a solution for our customers we go and we make sure that it we created such a way that they can move even if we're not around and And that can only happen if we use open source or open standards Because it's not just open source. We also have to look at the standards that are coming out Because open source will eventually define a lot of the standards And so it's always it's a but also as a business person and entrepreneur It's it's a struggle. You're right. You have to figure out. How do I design something so that my customers aren't locked in? We can benefit together I can give back to the community and then at the same time make money to keep the lights on a pay for the developers to do what they love to do right and so it's a struggle having it's a balance trying to figure that out and We talk about Freedom in software. That's what really open source is is to have the freedom But we forget that that creates a free market, right and just like in a free market. There's The market will dictate What companies survive and what doesn't in the same way? It'll dictate what? Projects in the open source community survive and who don't and so and then until somebody comes around and says hey You made a mistake. Let me fix that mistake for you bring everybody over here and lock everybody in Like Amazon So it sounds like we're all in agreement in the panel that open source is awesome That's the way to go and it sounds like you're we're having it did a little bit of a different Perspectives of what it means that means means to operate their open source business and provide open source product So I'm gonna maybe build on top of what Alex mentioned and maybe it took it at that question from a user's perspective So if I'm a consumer of certain technology or I'm using a certain product and it works well for me But it you know breaks at certain point in time I should be able to look into the code and understand how it works And then I'm able to understand maybe fix it for me And maybe I can contribute to that part to the core to the to the to the to the location where the project lives So everyone could gain from from that knowledge that I've just gained So I think it is all important to look at that from a user's perspective and the benefits that the users get from an open source project so I think eventually the the choice of going open source or not is is Then at the very end is mostly like a business choice, right? Whether you want to like it really changes them on people like the reason I would go to open source Not the same reason as Alex would go to open source. He's a businessman. I'm a developer I think with the different mindset So the reason I would go open source mostly because I want to give back to community But I don't I don't entirely agree with you and say That open source enables for standards to be created. I think the community around the open source project actually enables the standards to be created Is that is empowering these community and these humans that are part of these open source projects to actually Make choices and decide what's going on is what that is one makes This is what's making the standards actually so one thing we often forget is that technology is social before it is actually technology and at this like I didn't create this is actually something that Gills a little set before and I'm actually quoting him so We often forget that and and is empowering people to to actually be part of these changes that is making open source What it is today and that is actually helping creating all these standards that we would like and we all Worship Fantastic, I'm gonna ask some targeted questions at each of them on you. That's okay So Christian you have quite a track record when it comes to working with large-scale organizations and bringing an open source into these organizations What kind of struggles have you seen in those kind of? Scenarios like with tapjoy what it's taken to get them to adopt open source versus other options out there Yeah, so it all depends on the DNA of the company a lot of times companies who are born digital and already had a digital or online strategy for their revenue Generating model they're much easier to work with because the The the DNA was from day one the engineers introduced open source I mean 90% of the internet is run by Linux not Microsoft or closed source at least active sites according to that craft but So it's a lot easier to work with companies who are been in that Arena of the digital DNA but a more established company or even a brick-and-mortar who's moving online or a fortune 500 who has You know a mix of both those are a lot more difficult, you know If anybody's have to has had to ever sit in front of a legal board of lawyers because you're introducing You know SSH into the company You know what I'm talking about And so it's a it's very it can get cumbersome Unnecessarily just because they're afraid of what they don't know and so it's trying to lead them there So that is changing very rapidly. We see a lot of large companies here at this conference And so it's a it's a good change in the right direction, but it still takes a lot of hand-holding Thank you Alex Miranda's took the distro approach Which is can be competitive how do you differentiate yourself and what have you learned like in this whole Well, so Mirantis is a pragmatic company, right? So we would take an industry and we try to find a way to traverse it so that we can build the business as we're doing this So we started First by actually being a professional services company and we helped the early adopters to build open-stack clouds Because we had people who knew open-stack Then we recognized that There is a certain set of problems that could be automated So we don't have to do it repeatedly again through a distro and we built distro business and we kind of replicated the redhead model and After a while we've recognized that our friends were nemesis is depending how you want to define them and in in Seattle have Actually created a concept of a cloud right and open-stack was You know response to that concept, you know the of AWS But there is something else that they would AWS has done that is actually very very useful They have evangelized then as a service model is very successful when you go and sell it into an enterprise and Those of us who have been selling to enterprise recognize that nobody expected for AWS to make such a huge Inroads into traditional enterprises is they have in the last two years and has been extremely disruptive For the traditional infrastructure players both in hardware and software and the like So because of that The as a service or SAS like business model for infrastructure consumption has become Somewhat of a beginning of a standard that wasn't even a possibility two years ago So Mirantis those of you who follow us have recognized that it's very difficult to actually build a successful cloud through a distro approach And integration approach takes years and millions of dollars Whereas and as a service could be done in a matter of weeks because this is really where the world is going so as a next step of evolution we created a I mean still a distro, but it's an operator centric distro that can be either managed by a more sophisticated customers or by us as a Managed service, so we're taking the business model pioneered in infrastructure by Amazon and Taking it Disattached the Amazon stack and this attached an Amazon data center to the world through an open source world Right, so that's what we're doing and this is actually accelerating our business probably 10x compared to where it's been even a year ago Thank you. You actually touched on something. I'm gonna ask later So I'll come back to that but about that kind of the trend around open core and SAS models, but uh, we'll come back to that Monty you've made your way around the different companies ones that are known for their more proprietary code and it's the They have completely different Models and I just been wondering like what do you how do you feel about like kind of moving from those companies to you know More open model the kind of flagship open source company and how How's the disparate models? How do they work together? How do they compare? That wasn't the best a formed question. I apologize. That's great This is gonna be tricky because I don't really I don't want to speak ill of any of the previous places So let me see if I can if I can Actually answer the the the thing without doing that you can do it Boris. Yeah, I'll try and be There's no way I can do it Boris Where's Boris Boris can come in and do it Boris? So so so first of all I I will say it's it's You know being at red hat the last year has been has been honestly Really fantastic if for no other reason then I'm I'm no longer the the kind of One of the voices of in the corner trying to teach everybody else how to how to do open source Turns out the company I'm in now is pretty good at that So I don't I don't teach anybody crap Which is which is a real load of I can I can focus on other things. I don't have to you know Try and go and do that at the evangelism side Which is really nice on on the you know Which which sort of points to the previously one of the one of the big challenges there and this is a challenge that That it was it was worthwhile and it felt you know felt good for a period of time It's it's hard but but worthy to to try and tackle is you have you have these companies that have been around for for a long time And have been you know successful doing doing their businesses and now the world is the world is changing the world is is moving There's a there's a there's new ways of thinking and and you've got in all of those companies really really great engineers really really great You know, you know sort of people all across the organization that honestly want to To to embrace things they want to they want to learn things they want to they want to move and change With the times sometimes really hard to do that because of inertia, you know Sometimes you just you've been doing things away for a while and and that but not just as as people that are attempting to be Vendors in the open-source space But this same the same pattern is out there for all of the all the companies We're selling to all the companies that are that are customers You've got people that are focused on on their business and all of a sudden they've got this open-source thing They've got a they've got to deal with and they've got DevOps and they've got cloud and they've got you know Who knows what tomorrow, you know, I'm trying to be a serverless. Yeah serverless, you know We're all figuring out where the servers went, you know So so there's the those same challenges exist and so so in a lot of ways it's really just a Microcosm of the of the industry as a whole. How do you how do you go in and talk to people about not just not just opens words But what does that mean to their business? What is it? What are the changes that that's going to require or out of them? And how does that affect? You know, how does that affect all those things and that can be that can be scary can be hard sometimes people do really good job with it right and sometimes Sometimes the efforts they do will fail for the same reasons that other things sometimes they'll be wildly successful But but certainly if we don't engage and if we don't we don't try and move that needle forward then it's certainly never going to get anywhere So, you know, I think that on the one hand, it's really great to be at a at a company that's already there And on the other hand, it's been it's been the fun challenge, you know over the over the years leading up being being part of of working with people on on getting better and on Transforming and on meeting their goals to do that, you know, it's not necessarily coming in and telling them They have to do something. It's they're like hey come come work with us on doing this. So it's them, you know, and some good stuff Awesome. I want to target the next question at Flavio, but you probably have a few things to say about it, too But what's it really like being a maintainer of an open-source project? How much time do you have? What are the true complexities and how do you see that affecting actually the you know Monetization and business aspects is also if you have any insight on that. Yeah, so no really how much time do you have? Not much because That is the first question you got to ask to every open-source maintainer Regardless whether them being paid for that or not Takes a lot of time to maintain an open-source project And if we're talking about open-source projects out at the size of open stack It takes even more time because you don't only have to deal with code We also have to deal with a bigger community and you have to talk to people and A former boss of mine used to say that open-source is like 90 percent talking and 10 percent coding And she's like not really far from the truth. And then there's a lot of frustration in there Tons of frustration in there not only for the code also that for the community So when it comes to monetization is how much you care about the community? How much you care about the project? It's not about the money is all it's about how you invest your time and That is what really is going to help you monetize at the very end of the day what you're actually coding on So if you know how to invest your time if you know it to dedicate your time on how to improve your own community And I always go back to community because the community means a lot to me And I really believe that you know open-source projects are mostly about a community not so much about the code Sure, I mean if it doesn't work. Well, what the heck? Go back home and and chill I guess or cry but But yeah, I mean at the very end is is is how you invest your time is really is the real investment and then of course money is important But that's what really minorly important. That's just a little thing that just pays our salaries, but But yeah, I guess I'd say I actually want to just a thing if obvious said, you know It gets frustrated can get really frustrating and one of the reasons is that usually when you're when you're leading one of These things or you're really involved in it You you deeply want it to be successful and so right you get really emotionally tied up in that and then it can be you know When you win when there's when there's other things that are that are causing that to maybe not So that's why it's out of what it's like this thing out of love, right? That is exactly what I said regardless you're being paid for these or not It just becomes your baby and it's like you want you just want it You just want to see it shine and you want to see people using it because you're investing time and talks on it I'm not gonna give you the mic Arthur I have two last questions that I think are important I want to ask them so we're gonna have to keep our next to answer is a little bit shorter if that's okay Cloud I started with the regular open-source model and then with Apache aria and move to an open governance model You know, what have you learned with that? And can you share a little bit of background about this move why it was important and how it differentiates? You know the open source versus open governance Sure, so as you all probably know clarifies in the orchestration business building an acquisition product also an open-source product But it's you know, we also have competitors who are also doing orchestration, right? And some of us are focusing on the Tosca elements of it, right? How do you? How do you interpret a certain a? Certain a definition of an application and how do you do the orchestration like the core fundamental thing of orchestration and Kind of think about it, you know So it's it's kind of like very similar to what's operating systems are doing so in operating assistant assistant space You have you know various distros. They're sort of fighting over the Mine and heart of users, but in the fundamental, you know core of it You always have the kernel, which is the same so essentially, you know the applications run in a similar way But you have different ways to package them distribute them and you have a lot of all sorts of you know Sugaring around the different distros that sort of attaching the users again from that perspective, you know We started the project area and the idea there is to create this community of developers who would have the same goal in mind Right, it's all about collaborating the right things. We should collaborate around. It's not about you know That the language itself that the Tosca Specification itself is the same we shouldn't fight over who has the best parser or has you know A certain set of code base the dot that does that small, you know sort of small and identical thing around us Where they're where we should compete around unique features within our product So in that sense very similar to what we're doing with with the operating assistant market space, so Very interesting. Okay, so since I have two Questions that are pretty long. I'm gonna ask just some of you to answer them. I hope that's okay so, you know the red hat model has been the you know frame of reference until Today for open source, you know business models, but there have been other models You know like had to open Andrew and Mongo have taken other approaches Alex is there a winning business model in your opinion? Well, I am I think that There can only be one true red hat and you know, it's been said before I think Peter Levine from and racing Horowitz wrote an article about it that You know red hat stuff is all completely Open source and yet they monetizing it the same way that Enterprise vendors are doing and they're really you can using the stitching approach and the you know compliance approach. So Red hat has been done an amazing job And I don't know that anybody else can repeat that by essentially taking open source and Creating an appearance and the go-to market. That's very similar to any enterprise software I think this model outside of red hat will not work And those of you who are thinking of startups and all I suggest you don't go that route You know we tried it's difficult route I do think that the business model that will work is as a service business model because of the speed of innovation and it's the same As what we've seen, you know 20 years ago happening in software where on-prem got completely replaced by sass and unless you're You know software and if you're in the sass model, you're not even taken seriously for the most part so in in open source If you're trying to lock it in so people pay you for the bits, you know be it support or whatever You're kind of defeating the purpose But if you're actually using open source to come up with an outcome That people want to consume with an SLA people will pay you money for that And then the value of having open source underneath is actually great because you don't have to pay Licensees and what all those things so you're consuming innovation at the lowest cost and you're providing An outcome and that business model if it can be properly harnessed will work in open source community more and more Christian, what are your thoughts? so essentially what Companies like Amazon were successful with their selling this convenience. That's your product Technology is just a vehicle for that and which are piggybacks on what you're saying It's it's they're expecting an outcome and a lot of times that is convenient solve this problem solve these multi az replication situations for us And we don't have to wake up at three o'clock in the morning That's the convenience that they sell so any successful open source model has to have a Factor of convenience and most of us got that wrong and that's why Amazon owns such a large percentage of the cloud market right now Okay, so I'll continue and ask what what suggestions do you have for open stack in this context? Convenience focus on you know, you know, what is horizon have to be for example so complicated? Why don't we take the approach of You I UX and put that in there My team is actually that has that as an initiative to help improve horizon and give it back to the community But there's so many So many Scenarios where you know, how do we get this? How do we try open stack within like 30 minutes? There's there's few places where they're hard to find and so we want to make we want to improve that for open stack Okay So on that note, do you think that an open source project can survive without a strong powerhouse driving it or a benevolent dictator? I mean opensack adopted the foundation model and the whole you know kind of distributed in a sense Governance model and what are your thoughts on that? No, I that's actually one of the things that I think it I know there's people that disagree and they're wrong and that's okay I think that's one of one of our one of our strengths and in open stack is it the the quotes been going around the the Twitter's over the last couple of months, but but I think it speaks to this Really well is that you know if you want to if you want to go fast go alone if you want to go far go together and Anytime you've got that that sort of single single person. That's that's a bottleneck like that's not actually that that may be That may help you accelerate something for 30 seconds or something like that, but that's not a that's not a long-term strategy That's not that's not how an ecosystem can can build and grow if you think about the world's most successful piece of open-source software the internet That's that's a that is a that is a thing that has been under a Portion it's distributed governance because it's distributed pieces of things It is it is run by lots of different people by consensus, right? It works because different people run pieces of it Independently and it all works the same right so that's that's the thing that if you really want something to To last if you really want it to matter It it can't just be tied to one person's revenue stream or one person's ability to not get hit by a bus You know or or any of those things and so I think that's that's absolutely essential for the long-term health Can I make a 10-second comment to this because this is very important also wants to say so in 2011 when we committed to open stack Everybody thought were crazy because Technologically it was probably the worst of the projects It was very early and 10% of our engineers quit when we announced that because their management was incompetent the reason we did that is exactly for the what the reason that Monty said there wasn't there wasn't a powerhouse controlling 80% of a cloud stack was much better product and Citrix controlled it and It died died for the reasons that Monty has suggested and we're going strong So for industry-sized projects, you cannot have anybody controlling it Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to add more to what Monty said for but from a different perspective despite my Besides my dislike deep dislike of any kind of dictator ever I'll Allow that having that fear there that will eventually make every call for the community regardless whether it's like single-point failure Not I think it kills innovation to some extent and the ability for people to actually motivate themselves to actually make the community better Because eventually it'll all come down to whether these person wants to do stuff or not and I think that From a human perspective that really hits everyone Even even without people actually noticing it and I'm not gonna say that they're not successful communities with benevolent dictators like if you look at a Python community Python has gone somewhere We can say that's been long it's been around long enough But I do think it's not if you compare the evolution of Python Although it's a very different technology from opens up But if you compare the evolution of Python to open second the way the community has grown let alone the technology itself But the community itself you can you can see how fast the open sack community has gone How strong it opens that community is in comparison to the Python community and how much we can be more like I guess Unite in comparison to how the Python community works out. Yes No, no dictators ever We're nearly out of time, but I have one really good question left. So can we have a tiny bit of overflow tiny bit? Okay, so a lot of open-source companies are going with the kind of sass approach you were talking about that Leading kind of to more of an open core model than open source. Is that a new trend? How do you think that's gonna affect open source ultimately everybody gets 30 seconds and we're starting with you go Christian Um, yeah, open that's not a new concept. I've seen around for you know, almost 20 years and so it's that's the thinking Unfortunately engineers. We don't think always as business people But it's like how am I going to continue to do what I love and make money off of it And so modularizing and microservices today are great because now we're thinking of non monolithic approaches to put everything one package and hope for the best and now you can actually strip certain areas And you know put the areas the modularized the areas that the enterprise wants so that you could sell it to them and And give it to people give the rest of the world and these are The the ways that you can protect your product your core, you know use like the AGPL is the most strictest or safest way to Publish your product, but that license is also there's legal implications Alex yeah, so to me just you know how you don't you just to piggyback on that, you know And then they're entrepreneurs perspective So it's awesome that we love to build open source products and then projects and we understand that you know The community would will give the velocity for even a smaller company if you if you get to the community Obviously if the product would go and and and make you know progress much faster But how do you like make a sustainable business out of it if you're giving away most of it free? So do you close certain features or or do you provide only support for that? Do you provide only services around that? Do you piggyback on some a maybe bigger house that would do marketing for you for example, right? I'm a smaller company producing open source project, but hey Amazon, you know provides that in the service suddenly I have much more awareness of of the product that I'm building So maybe that's that that's that that the positive side of being you know part of the Amazon ecosystem So it's that's all about sustainability of the business and being being able to actually pay those those salaries for developers Alex so the open core system business model has its merits and a good example is Cloudera just went public and When you do comparisons apples to apples, they're valued at 2x the Hortonworks if not more right and they have a lot of proprietary stuff The trick is what do you keep open and what do you keep proprietary? So whatever concern in our case, whatever you have by way of a platform You can never have an additional feature in the platform that is suddenly proprietary because you'll get disrupted and locked in and won't work However, you can have areas around the platform for example Compliance which is specific to automotive industry and plugging into their compliance system That's a very important part for somebody to run hadoop if you're not a motive provider You will pay a million dollars for that compliance thing and there's no reason to open-source it or so have that as an add-on and And that's you know these kind of examples could be made into a business model But don't try to take the actual hadoop thing put something in Inside and say well, it's better. I'll make it proprietary that won't work It's worth pointing out really briefly that there was an attempt that an open core cloud company that predates Open stack and open stack exists largely because eucalyptus decided to take the open core approach So that that shall just let that be my thoughts on it's closing You're closing thought I have so many more questions, but we're out of time and the insight has been exceptional Folks you can totally talk to these experts if you're considering launching an open-source project got some insight on some of the mistakes that have been made some of the Lessons that have been learned and how to really Have success with open-source projects that they thrive and continue kind of to drive innovation. Thank you so much. Thanks Thank you