 Hi, I'm Matthew Francis, thank you for tuning in to Diversity Dignified. On this program we address any issues that pertain to gender equality. And so tonight I'm really honored to be interviewing Dr. Matthew Fox, who is here in Portland, Maine. He'll be speaking about ecological and gender justice. He is the author of 33 books with another on the way, and these books have been translated in 63 different languages. He's also the founder of the Fox Institute of Creation Spirituality, which is in California, with I believe another one on the way in Colorado. So without further ado, I will let him establish his own credentials, and we will just start. Dr. Fox, thank you so much for being here, welcome. One thing I think viewers probably are aware that you are an ex-priest, that you were in the Dominican Order for 34 years, I believe. You were silenced by Pope Benedict in 1993 for sort of the resurrection of creation spirituality. And I kind of think that that was sort of ironically providential. And I'm sort of wondering maybe what you did during that time, and how you kind of came around doing what you're doing. Well, first of all, Matthew, thank you for having me on your program, and thank you for having a program like this. I appreciate the journey you've been on. It's not been easy, but as you lay it out in your book, which I appreciate very much, it's a story of hope and of courage. And I commend you for that. And the many values you've been through, I think have clearly made you a stronger person and more, what should I say, endowed to be an instrument of compassion with others because it begins at home, compassion does. So I just commend you for your own journey and for your recent book, which I truly profited from. As far as my own journey goes, he has had his bumps. I think everybody's journey has some bumps. I love the line from Joe Campbell, None of Us Lives a Life We Had Intended. So that makes life much more interesting. It sure does. But it does keep you on your toes, too, doesn't it? So anyway, yes, I was silenced for a year by, actually I was under Pope John Paul II, but Rothsinger, who became Pope Benedict, was the instrument, he being the chief inquisitor who John Paul II enabled. And you understand, they silenced 160 theologians in their 34-year papacy. I was just one of 106, so I have to be humble about that badge of honor. But the first, I was silenced for a year. And the objections to my work were, first, that I'm a feminist theologian, secondly, that I call Godmother, though I proved that all the medieval mystics call Godmother, and that I prefer original blessing to original sin. Huge. Huge. And that I don't condemn gay people. That's pretty huge, too, as you know. Yes, it is. And that I work too closely with Native Americans. Those are the five objections or heresies, supposedly, that were laid on me. But yeah, I spent that year mostly traveling. I went to Latin America to see base communities in liberation theology in work. And I met people there who have been silenced, such as Leonardo Boff of the liberation theologian in Brazil, and Bishop Casa de Galida, a wonderful bishop and poet and mystic and prophet in the Amazon, who was working with the leaders of the Amazon tribes and so forth to defend the rainforest and to defend the tribes. A wonderful and very holy man. So it was, in fact, the only sabbatical I've ever had in my life. Oh, my goodness. But of course, it didn't give me any money or livelihood because I was not allowed to teach or preach or write or anything. But fortunately, I got a grant and I was able to survive that year. And when I came back, I spoke first that I called the Action Group to 2,000 people in Chicago. It's kind of a group of progressive Catholics. My opening line, which I received in her dream, was, as I was saying, 14 months ago when I was so rudely interrupted. And people liked it, but not in the Vatican, and about four or five years later they expelled me. So what is so offensive about an original blessing? Well, that's a very good question, I would ask the same thing. But Western Christianity, since, say, in Augustine, Augustine invented the idea of original sin, 4th century. It was the same century that the church inherited the empire. So if you're going to run an empire, original sin's a real good idea. Sure, keep you in line. Keep you in line and get all confused about whether you're right to be here or not. But Jesus never heard of original sin. No Jews ever heard of original sin. And so I just pointed this out in my book, and it was not well received by not just the Vatican, but a number of right wing Christians, because sin seems to be the way many Christians approach the person in the story of Jesus. But creation spiritually is very different. We begin with original blessing, and that is to say that creation that brought us here, us meaning us humans, it has blessed us all these billions of years. And we know that scientifically now. But we also know it, our ancestors knew it, the Jews knew it. Look at Genesis 1. Everything's good. Everything's good. Everything's good. And when humans come along, it's a very good. Well, good is a blessing is a word for goodness. So, but again, it's political. It's political that original sin has taken over the mindset of Western Christianity because it has served empires right up to today. Shame and fear. Shame and fear and guilt, and you don't have what it takes. I believe that the secular version of original sin is consumer capitalism. Yes. Because they're really saying the same thing. They're saying you don't have what it takes. You got to buy this. You got to get salvation from outside yourself. Yeah. If you're not producing or consuming, you're not really worthwhile. You don't really exist. Yeah. Exactly. The young and the old. Yes. Experience that. Handicaps. Yes. Physical, mental. Yes. Or something else. And then of course, also original sin was never really defined by the church. It's just this vague thing. Now for Augustine, it was about our sexuality. It really was. And that of course is pretty dangerous. But it was left vague. And so I think that gay people come into the world and they pick up the message, oh, it's an original sin. It's a sin to be gay. Yes. And that's what some churches are saying. Or transgender people, people of color in a racist society, women in a sexist society. So again, like I say, it's a way of keeping order. But it's not about freedom. It's not about grace. It's not about beauty. It's not about empowerment. Right. And it's collapsing. I mean, people don't want to feel horrible about themselves. Imagine that. Yeah, imagine that. I hope you're right. I hope it's collapsing. I mean, some people do. Adrian Rich, the great feminist poet, says that many men have a fatalistic self-hatred. And when I look like at today's politics, I think there's a lot of fatalistic self-hatred. Why are all these politicians in denial about climate change instead of wanting to do something about it? Right. Might it be fatalistic self-hatred? When you hate yourself, as Jesus pointed out, you're going to hate everyone else too, including the earth, including the elephants, and the tigers, and the whales, and the rivers, everything that's dying with us. So I think there's some deep insight in Adrian Rich's comment. And I would add, I think original sin ideology, whether it comes from Augustine in theology, or whether it comes from the secular world and consumer capitalism, both of them are feeding this idea of fatalistic self-hatred. And Jesus said, you love others the way you love yourself. So he's presuming that we learn to love ourselves, but good parenting and good healthy culture teaches people, and especially the young, to love themselves, to develop their unique gifts and all the rest. You know Dr. Fox, so in my book, I kind of start off, where I was really afraid of God. I didn't truly love him because I didn't know love, because the templates I had were very angry parents. And so I wonder if some of that is going on too. This is the templates we learn, original sin, self-hatred, and we project that on God. Yes, and the punitive father. Studies have been done on fundamentalism, and that keeps coming up. It's a punitive father, and a punitive father God. And this is, of course, a reminder about why good parenting is so important. But it's also a reminder about how good theology is important. To be passing on generation after generation, that God is essentially a punitive father who's judging you all the time, and has a special place called hell to throw you into, because he's just so imperfect, you know, it just goes on and on. It feeds a lot of sickness. And as you say, hopefully people are walking away from it. But in my opinion, they should be running away from it, and the sooner, the better. So my job, I guess, as a theologian for 40 years, has been to try to clean that mess up theologically and ideologically. And of course, we have the assistance of psychology today and other sciences. And to say nothing of art and music, and, you know, there's many ways to heal. And there's grief work to be done and the rest, and rituals. But we can't take it for granted that it's going to improve on its own. Because I think the punitive father ideology, which is really behind all fascism, too. Is about putting order ahead of everything else, law and order. And life isn't like that. There's chaos in life. And there's creativity that can be borne out of that chaos. And this is what we should be honoring, is creativity and rebirth. And beauty. And beauty and co-creation, the same problem self-calls about our being co-creators. And that's very different from being a sinner with the capital S. Well, the sinner, being a sinner, to me, is so debilitating. Because then you're just, I really developed a severe OCD, trying to be pure. Trying to be obsessive compulsive disorder. It was really trying to be clean, trying to be pure. And I would develop very elaborate cleansing rituals. And never could until finally I replaced this angry parent-father figure with a more loving paradigm. And I don't call God father, but I know that the Aramaic translation is mother, father, birth, or creator, universe, and spirit, which is a much more embracing, loving figurehead. Exactly. And bringing in the gender ballots when it comes to our names for divinity is very important. It's not a minor thing. So calling God mother is important. And in fact, John Paul I, who was murdered after one month in the job, the day before he was murdered, he said this publicly. He said, God is both mother and father, but God is more mother than father at this time in history. Because patriarchy has been so oppressive for several centuries. And Maestro Eckhart, the great 14th century mystic, who I've written a lot about, a wonderful man, also a Dominican, he said that all the names we give to God come from an understanding of ourselves. So if we're just passing on God as father, much less punitive father, or patriarchy, then we're revealing that our own souls are very unbalanced and our institutions and look around us to see how lacking in feminine energy and wisdom, for example, education is in our culture, to say nothing of politics or economics and the media and the rest. So bringing this balance back is an essential part of healing. And creating a society that's worthy of us and worthy of our children, whether they be girls or boys, we all have to grow up knowing that we have qualities of the feminine and the masculine. Right. The divine, feminine, sacred, masculine. There you go. Exactly. You know, one thing, so I saw you not too long ago because I was at a retreat of yours over at Roe Center. And I learned a lot about the sacred masculine. And I have to be honest that that felt so refreshing because it just felt, it feels to me like masculinity has been this sort of this tyrannical way of being. And as a transgender person, it was really difficult for me to come to terms with being a male right now. And I kind of felt like, well, women sleep with the enemy. I became the enemy. And it was really tough. And then because I had been trying so hard to be hyperfeminine, I went almost the other extreme of being very masculine. And now I feel like I have just this wonderful blend of both. And the other thing that I think that you wouldn't mind me bringing up it is science and religion or people of faith are really coming back to get again. Whereas I felt like it was very divided. But I would say in the last few years, at least to me, science is really backing a lot of what people of faith have been saying, like that we're interconnected and that both the masculine and feminine are just beautiful. And you said you don't condemn homosexuality. There's a lot of evidence in nature that that exists. Of course. And that it has been with us since the beginning of time. They've counted 464 other species, last I heard, that have gay and lesbian populations. Absolutely. So if you get over it. And the same with gender. People don't realize this. I wanted, I was a kind of a fundamentalist. Not quite a fundamentalist, but pretty conservative. And I needed to know this existed in nature. And you want to know what some of my research found was that it's all over the place. It's not just in plants and fish either. There was a movie I saw was on BBC called Some of the animals that were hiding. And basically it was two scientists from South Africa were that started off, they were studying a pride of lions. And they thought they were studying male lions. And it turned out they were female lions. They had grown their maines out and they were behaving like males. And oh, the world's sneakiest animals is the title of it. And it went on and they were studying deer who were behaving male deer that were behaving like female deer. And so it turns out there's this whole transgender thing going on in the natural world. It's about diversity, isn't it? Yes, I always say if God didn't like diversity, why he makes so much of it. Exactly, exactly. And most artists like diversity. Thomas Aquinas, the 13th century mystic and saint. He says, God is the artist of artists. And he says that no artist hates their work. The poet loves her poetry. The potter loves his pots. The painter loves her paintings. How could God, who's the artist of everything, hate anything? Right, right. So diversity is how, getting into the artist's mind is one way of understanding, I think, what the divine mind is really about. But there's a story about homosexuality that I think I'd like to share with you. Please do. A couple years ago I was lecturing in South Korea. They translated about a dozen of my books. And it was a very large hall. It was packed, people sitting, standing in the corner and everything. And it was three hours, it was long afternoon because of course I had a translator after about each sentence or two, she would translate. The very last question, this young man stood up and he said, I am gay and I do not feel welcome in my church here in South Korea and he sat down. Well, I launched into my shtick and I said, well, first of all, my Bible says God is love. It doesn't say God is heterosexual love exclusively. The Native American leaders have told me that those who know the tradition know that all the great chiefs had gay people as their spiritual directors. And because they recognize that gay people carry a special gift of spirituality to a community. And then of course I talked about science of 460 other species and 8% of any given population can be gay, et cetera. And when I remember the last sentence that I spoke was something like, so if you live in a society of any kind that is homophobic and worships a homophobic deity, you're in trouble because you're destroying spiritual energy. And with that I ended and two things happened. My translator disappeared. Boom, she went away. And the guy who had invited me, who led the whole afternoon, he came rushing up to me and knocked over the lectern. He was, and I didn't know what I had done. And he said, you've just dropped a bomb. You've just dropped a bomb. South Korea is the most homophobic culture in the world. But he said it's good. Someone had to drop the bomb. So I had to do it. Better than it'd be you, someone from the outside. Well, the next morning I was traveling on a train with my translator, further south to a university. We had another talk. And she said this to me. She said, I want to apologize that I disappeared because there was no one there to translate when I was signing books and stuff. She said, but here's the deal. I'm a lesbian. And while you were talking there, that last question, I could hardly translate at all. The top of my head was coming off, she said, because I'd never heard a theologian much less a priest taught that way before. And she said, as soon as you finished, I went to the bathroom and I cried for an hour. I bet. Which is really something, because this was a professional woman, very strong, intermittent 30s. But wow, the power of homophobia. Oh, it's so stifling, Dr. Fox. I mean, to have someone, to have people stick up for us, to know who our allies are is huge. And I fear so many people are walking around in shame, you know, afraid of who they are. And I love hearing that Native American culture embrace the sexuality, homosexuality. It also embraced being transgender because we go back, we're called Two-Spirit. And that's what the Native Americans referred to us as Two-Spirit. And we were seen as the leaders and the sages to make the wise choices. And of course, there were tremendous responsibilities, but also some privileges, you know, some balances. Well, definitely an appreciation for the gifts that come to the community through people like yourself and others. And yeah, and I think, I was telling you this in the car, I think your biography that you lay out in your book, short that it is, that you've suffered so many things, first of all, with violent parents and then being in a mental hospital and all that and being treated that way. And of course, being on the streets and all of it. And then going through your own sexual identity as well. Then I think part of it has been an initiation into shamanism for you, that your leadership, including having a program like this, I think comes out of a deep spiritual place. And I should say I praise you for having the courage to step up and deliver and share with the community. It's just what the native people say, that transgender people and gay and lesbian people have a special gift for the community and the gift is spirituality, essentially. And our homophobic culture or church is, as I say, shooting the cells in the foot. They're depriving themselves of spiritual energy. I think, you know, I agree and even extend that. I think, you know, that we, if we cut ourselves out from people who are differently abled, immigrants and refugees, you know, anyone with any diversity, we're hurting ourselves, you know, we really are. But really, I mean, you look at American history and its better side has been welcoming people of so many backgrounds. And so many of them have gifted us so much. An awful lot of Silicon Valley inventions have come from immigrants. That's a good point. And so that's just the latest story. And we are all immigrants, unless you're Native American. Right. And you're here, another issue that, to me, is front and center. And I'm so glad you're here. It is our environment. It's in trouble. I mean, we've made some poor choices and we are wreaking havoc. Whether it's due to self-loathing or that we really just don't comprehend what the consequences are. I think 98% of the world's scientists agree. We're in trouble. And we need to double up, triple up, what we need to do to take care of the environment. Well, absolutely. And the bottom line is, I think, that we live in such a world, a human-centered world, anthropocentric, what Pope Francis has called narcissistic. Yeah. That we're not realizing the pain that we're delivering on other creatures, whether we're talking about the waters or the soil or the forest or the elephants and tigers and the fishes and all of it. But you're right, it's the scientist's job to gather the facts. And it's clear that the earth is extremely sick. It's now a hospital. And, of course, climate change. Now, I was invited to a conference a year and a half ago in Florida about the rising seas and climate change. And this was in January of last year. At that time, Florida had three significant politicians, two of them running for president and won the governor of Florida. All three were in complete denial publicly about climate change. But at this conference, it began with a scientist who got up and showed slides of Florida. He said, 10 years from now, chop. Then he showed a slide of 20 years from now, chop, chop. 30 years from now, chop, chop, chop. Florida is going under. And you have three, Bush, Rubial, and the governor in complete denial. And I went to South Miami. There's six inches of water in the sidewalks. And it's not just about getting your feet wet. When saltwater rises and then flushes down our freshwater tables, we're done. As a species, you can't grow plants and everything else. And what do you do with sewers and all that? It's uncanny that humans can choose denial about so important a topic. And that we have, frankly, at this time, it seems a whole party in America that is committed to denial, even though now it's interesting. Al Franken last week, I don't know if you heard this, you know, the Democratic Senator said, behind closed doors in the Senate, Republicans will admit climate change. Really? Yes. But that's even more pathological. Because in front of the doors, they're doing nothing and denying it. So this is complete hypocrisy, it's schizophrenia, and it's a sign that our politics are absolutely off the chart. I hear from people saying, you know, Matthew, it's just evolution. This happened years ago and stuff. I guess my answer is, you know, evolution took thousands of years. This has taken a few hundred. And it's a very accelerated evolution. Exactly. And it's not taking a few hundred now, it's gonna take a couple decades. And, you know, as a people in Greenland, I was just, I just learned from a scientist, this week I've been in a science conference out on Star Island with scientists and a few others. And one of them said, you know, they're now grazing cattle in Greenland. Greenland used to be all ice. And talk, of course, to people from the islands, or the Pacific Islands, you know, these islands are being abandoned because of saltwater is taking over the freshwater tables. So these are the canaries in the mine. And then, of course, just check the weather patterns. I just came from California a week ago and we had the hottest 10 days in recorded history. And this was in June. So, and then the number of hurricanes and it's all gonna get worse because of climate change. So again, humans, we're an amazing species, but it's not all good news. We're capable of so much denial, living in our own worlds. And I think Pope Francis, you know, wrote a very financial call on ecology called Laudate Si. I think he's absolutely right. It's a narcissism of our species. And anyone with moral instinct at all ought to be shouting and marching and demanding change. We need to be stewards of this earth that we're, as the natives would say, we're borrowing from our children, our grandchildren. And we're not thinking with that in mind. It's just a very immediate gratification. Whatever we want, it will pay for the consequences later. And we're paying for them now. That's right. And later is gonna be worse if you don't shift. I really like Naomi Klein's book. This Is It, the title. The subtitle is Capitalism Versus Climate. But she did a tremendous job of interviewing all kinds of groups around the country, including indigenous groups, that are doing very positive work at the grassroots. And so it's very important to keep our hope up on this. And to realize that people, many people are aware, and many people are doing a lot. Just two days ago, I think 300 cities, mayors of 300 cities in America, said we're gonna commit to the Paris Accord. Oh, wonderful. And we're gonna make things happen. So in a way, it may be in kind of a perverse way that the president pulling out of that accord will get grassroots groups doing more and taking responsibility. Because this is not something we can just expect to solve from the top. And a lot of corporations are smart enough, and even the defense department knows all about climate change. You know, like they were saying that this week, these scientists, they've been quizzed by the Navy. Because of course, the Navy deals with water. And when, as the seas rise, and they know it's rising, everything's gonna change for the Navy. Where are they gonna park their ships? Their piers are underwater, all that practical stuff. So I mean, the president can prattle on about whatever illusion the sea's living under, but those who live in reality, I mean, he lives on a tower, you know, with gold. So remove from the average. So remove. But even he will be affected when the air is no longer clean, breathable, and water is hard to find, and the rest. So it's a pitiful situation, but it is shedding light on the pathology of our civilization. Yeah, I can imagine because in so many ways, people who are wealthy can be removed about something. But you know, the environment doesn't discriminate. When it has a hurricane, it doesn't care that you're living in a penthouse. And you know, I really feel, I've heard people make really careless statements like, well, you know, the earth is gonna poop out anyways, but you know what, the earth is gonna survive. It's us that aren't. That's right. And we're bringing down a lot of other species with us. Which is pitiful. That have no say in any of those. No say in any of them. They haven't voted for Trump or anyone else. Right. Yeah. So people do make up excuses. But more and more people are waking up. And of course, we do have a lot of creativity as a species. There's a lot we can do. And I mean, you know, in India, they have a car that runs on air. That's pretty good. I've wondered about like solar cars, why not? And more and more solar and the batteries that go with it and all of that. But we're gonna be saved by technology alone. We have to change our consciousness to get out of our anthropocentrism, narcissism. And realize we're in kinship with all these other beings. And the earth is an interdependent system, as you said. And we have to respect that. There's a web that we're part of here. And it's all sacred. See, that's what I think is the thing that's most missing. That we've been taught to see the world in a utilitarian way, the earth. As something we're gonna exploit and make money from. But not as a relative. And the whole tradition of Mother Earth. And it's interesting, it's not only a Native American theme, but it's interesting that Pope Francis brought her interest in cyclicals. He's kind of adapted that language as a Christian. And that's important, that we recover the sense of relationship. Everyone who grows a garden knows they're in relationship with the earth. Well, I find this interesting. You know, I just wanna emphasize to people, it's not a bumper sticker. It's a fact that we are interconnected. And thinking that we can oppress the environment or a group of people or certain plants or animals, it does impact us. Absolutely. You know, if nothing else, the potential of another human being that never gets developed, that could benefit us. You know, if you wanna look at it from an eagle point of view. Well, that too. But you know, we say we love our children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, but we don't. If we're not working, that their life will have healthy air, soil, water, and numerous diverse species to delight and instruct them. So it's a complete lie, if we're not actively involved. Just don't give me that nonsense that you love your children, because it's a lie. It is. And an illusion. Yeah. You know, and as much as we complain about winter, for example, I can't imagine a world without having some snow. But I don't think our children are gonna enjoy that. That's one of the things that's going to be gone. I've read that recently, you know. There's so, and the species that are just becoming more extinct, they're not gonna enjoy these things that you and I for now get to take for granted. So I agree, if you love your children, if you love yourself, you're gonna show that with the environment. So, I do know on a personal note, once he pulled out, once President Trump pulled out, I woke up redoubling my efforts. I thought I was doing a fairly good job and I guess I expected the government to take care of business. But you know what, they're not. And it is definitely up to us to step up to the plate, post-haste. Well, exactly, as you say, to double our efforts. And I think, you know, there is a lot of that going on. It is. The fact that 300 mayors got together and committed themselves is significant, I think. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Is there anything I should have asked you that I did not? Well, I didn't have any agenda. But you have a new institute in Colorado above. Yes, right. I had my own university called the University of Cree spirituality for nine years in Oakland, California. But now graduates of my program are starting, and I left that several years ago and I worked with the inner city kids using our same pedagogy, which is so effective with adults. And it really worked. These kids are dropping out of school. And I learned they're dropping out because they're bored. Not because they're dumb. Our education is dumb. The kids aren't. But so my practice was to bring creativity in to the inner city kids. And when we did, we took a poll, 100% wanted to stay in school. Why? Because they felt the joy of learning. The joy of learning is missing in a lot of our educational system. But yes, so now graduates of my program are starting their own university, but with the same pedagogy that I initiated in the past. And they call it the Fox Institute for Cree spirituality. I had nothing to do with the title, but they're in charge, not me. But I will teach in it. And they offer a master's degree in spirituality, Cree spirituality, and a doctor of ministry degree, and also a doctor of spirituality degree. And it's an intense of things. You come for one or two weeks at a time. So it's not about moving to Colorado. Yeah, so you don't have to relocate. Exactly, it's not that. And then within a year, they'll have some classes, not all I think, no more than 40% online as well. And they're trying to keep the costs down and all the rest. Oh, wonderful. But I think it's really special and important because we need a spirituality today for the very reason things we're talking about. You have to be strong. The spirituality is about warriorhood. It's not for wimps. Exactly, exactly. And so we need to be intellectually strong as well as if you will, psychologically and spiritually. So we purposely, we train both left and right brain, the intuition which is mysticism because we wanna create mystics and prophets and the left brain that is intellectual and rational. By the way, something else I'm involved in if you wanna hear about it. I wanna hear, I do. I got a dream two years ago and it woke me up before in the morning and it said, do it with exclamation points. What was he it? To start a new religious order that isn't a religious order but a spiritual order. It's not beholden to anyone religion or headquarters, religious headquarters. But it's built around what we're talking about ecology because the name of the order would be the order of the sacred earth, OSC. And there's one vow that would bind the community together and this is the vow. I promise to be the best mystic that is lover of mother earth and the best prophet or warrior defending mother earth that I can be. That's the one vow. And you can be Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or Hindu or atheist if you agree with this value system. And I have two 33 year olds running it because this is about the younger generation. This is a generation that has to step up but they need support from elders and others. And so I see it as being intergenerational. There'll be older people in it but the young have gotta lead and they should be empowered to lead. And we're launching it. We're putting out a short book called Order of the Sacred Earth and I've written a 40 page OSC and then one of these young people has and then we have about 20 people writing very short S's like two pages in response. Some of them names people would know like David Corten and Brian Strimm, the cosmologist, Mirabai Star and so forth. But some young people who don't yet have big names. But this book will come out this fall but we're excited about it. When I bounced it off people, especially young people, 126 year olds, she said, this is exactly our generation needs. She said, we're so dispersed by social media and distracted but to have something to focus on, this is it. She said, we need to focus and that's what a vow is, obviously. So, but again I learned the lesson from history that when I look at the history of the Christian church it has often had times like today when this energy is run very low when it's not in good shape. But at such times usually an order popped up. The third century had the desert fathers and mothers. That was a new movement. In the sixth century at St. Benedictine's glass to starting the monastic system. In the late 12th and early 13th century you had St. Francis and St. Dominic starting their orders. In the 16th century I think the Protestant Reformation was in many ways a birth of lay orders. And then you had St. Ignatius starting the Jesuador. But I looked around today and there's nothing happening. And so I say, well, but we should learn the lesson that St. Francis did not want his order to be controlled by the Vatican. But they took it away and then he died two years later. I think of a broken heart. I believe that, yeah. Within a generation the Franciscans were running the imposition as was the Dominicans. So we gotta learn from the shadow side here that it shouldn't be beholden to any religious headquarters. And I think we're ready for this today because of the great gift of religious diversity that we're all able to profit from today. So we wanna launch this thing and see what happens. Oh, I wish you all the best on that. Well, thank you. Definitely. So you take anyone. So you all heard that? Atheists, Buddhists, Native American Judaism, welcome here as long as they will uphold the vows. That's right. And you can remain in your own tradition, of course. Sure, sure. Right, right. You can't beat that. Appold the vows, exactly. And support one another. Absolutely, yes. And I believe you have another book on the way. Is that correct? Because I bought something, Stations of the Cross. Oh, Stations of the Cosmic Christ. Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that? I haven't had the chance to break it open yet. Oh, okay. Well, the archetype of the Cosmic Christ is returning. Kaur Jung says that archetypes return when they're needed. Yes. And this is an ancient archetype. It's the oldest writings in Christianity talk about the Cosmic Christ. Paul's letters and the Gospel of Thomas, both written about the same time before the other four Gospels. And so this is an ancient teaching but we really lost it because of our anthropocentrism and narcissism. But Paul says, for example, Christ holds everything together, the heavens and the earth. Now there's a parallel concept in Buddhism, the Buddha nature. And it's about the sacredness. The Cosmic Christ is about every being is another Christ. And the Buddhist teaching is every being is another Buddha. And in Judaism, every being is an image of God, not just humans, but every being. So it's about recovering the sacredness of all beings. And again, this is a bit basic to all ecology, I think, if you're gonna develop a spiritual ecology. And so I had another book out this year on Thomas Merton, the great Catholic monk who... Who got you in a lot of trouble. Who got me in a lot of trouble because I wrote him when I was a young Dominican and said, where should I go to get a doctor in spirituality? He said, go to Paris, the Institute of Cuddley in Paris. And so I did and there I met my mentor, Paris Chenoux, a French Dominican, older man. And he named this creation of spiritual tradition for me. So yes, I think I can say Merton got me in all my trouble. So I will... Thank you, Merton. I thank him and bless him for making life not uninteresting. Yes, yes. Well, to go back to the Buddha nature you were talking about, I have a good friend named Tom Hendel who said a meditation that he uses is that he will, I am. And then every single thing he comes into contact, I am. I am the table, I am the plant. So that you see the sacredness of everybody if you are. And I find that fascinating. That's how God answered, right? I am. Exactly. And that's part of the 16th station, seven of them are the I am sayings. You know, I am the good shepherd, I am the door, I am the resurrection, life and so forth. These are not Jesus' talk. Jesus didn't talk that way, the historical Jesus. This is a cause of Christ, which is to say the vision that the community had immediately after Jesus died and left. And so you can flip it. The question is in what way are you a door? You are, I am the door, how are you a door? How am I a door? How are we good shepherds? And at this time of ecological crisis, it's very close to being a good steward. Shepherds care about the sheep. They have to, sheep are very vulnerable. And so you go through all, how are you a light to the world? So it's a marvelous practice. So there is the stations of the cross in Catholic churches and Episcopal churches. But these stations, and they are about the last 20 hours of Jesus' life, the undergoing this pilot and his death and all that. These stations are about the great stories around Jesus because they're all set in the gospels around cosmology, including Bethlehem and the Nativity, including John 1 in the beginning was the word, including the baptism of Jesus. We're told the sky opened up. That's kind of cosmic. Yeah, I'd say so. You would say so. Transfiguration when he went up to the mountain and they saw his radiance. And even the crucifixion is not set in any of the gospels in terms of this private thing about how I nailed Jesus to the cross and my sins did it all. It's set in a cosmic context. One gospel says, even though it was midday, there was a lunar eclipse, et cetera. Or another gospel that earthquakes happened and people came out of the grave or another one that the temple veil ripped. And yet we know at that time that that veil had a picture of the cosmos on it. It was a universe that split. So everything, then the resurrection, the ascension, Pentecost, all these are set in a cosmic context, but we've lost the power because we've reduced them to psychology. And there's not the power there that is to be found in cosmology. So this is part of the cosmic Christ. So this is a practice and we have these two artists who created these icons. And now they're available in a two-dimensional form. People, one version is aluminum. You can put them on your church walls, your chapel wall, whatever. And the other is actually a high quality paper photograph. You can put an eight by 10 inch frame and again, put it up on the walls. And so you walk. It's like a mini pilgrimage. You walk from station to station, you pause and you meditate on each. And another thing you can do in churches would be to have young people, children, maybe one group, teenagers and other young adults, and now they create their own stations. In other words, it's a way to invite artists back to healthy religion, to make religion healthy again. There's an artist in Italy who's done her stations, for example, these 16 stations, and they're hanging in a monastery now in Italy and outdoor in an outdoor cloister, yeah. And it helps revive that ritual we've lost so much of, you know. We need ritual so much. We do need ritual. Get out of our heads. Yeah, I feel a personal appeal to ritual. We've lost it. And I think that we're kind of just floundering a bit. Other cultures, especially indigenous cultures, you go through these and it does move you to the next phase. And I almost can't help but wonder if that's part of what's going on. We've lost so much of that. Well, that's right. And all healthy ritual connects you to the universe. It's not just about psychology, it's cosmology. Just think, for example, of Stonehenge. These people, thousands of years ago, before they mentioned the wheel, dragged, got out of their couches and dragged tons, literally tons of rocks to a place. Why did they do that? What motivated them? It was the solstice and the equinox. It was our relationship to the cosmos. And so if we're looking to get energy back and get out of cushed potatoitis and eating potato chips till we die, ritual is, look at Burning Man out in California. 65,000 people come out in August in the desert. I mean, crazy, if they were reasonable, they'd go in March, but no, August. But that just shows that the appeal of ritual, because people are hungry today, frankly, Western religion today has pretty much rendered ritual dead. It's all about reading prayers and getting on the right page. And the eyes, Iroca, the poet said this, he said, the work of the eyes is finished now. Go and do heart work. And all the images are repressed within you. So, and of course, real ritual includes a body, as native people know, of course. They wouldn't bring a book to prayer. They dance and they sweat. You wouldn't bring a book into a sweat lodge. No, and that's a purifying thing. Absolutely. I've even wondered on some level, because I smoked for 20-something years and we all went out and huddled, and I can't help but wonder even if smoking was a form of our little fires. We had our little fires, we'd huddle around speaking and that's what we used to do, is have big fires and talk with each other and dance and things. Well, yeah, when people don't get rituals from the culture, they do make their own. Dysfunctional ritual. We get dysfunctional ones. Yeah, and drinking and even drugs. There's a search for a high, there's a search for ecstasy and for transcendence, even in that. But it's not a very healthy way to go, it's a rule. And I thought I read somewhere, or maybe I heard it from you even at the retreat, that you had worked with raves, they were doing with raves? Yes, yeah, years ago I realized we have to reinvent worship in liturgy and bring the body back. And in the last 20, 30 years, new languages have been developed, such as rap, new art forms, rap, DJ, VJ. Why wouldn't these be used in worship? It's sacred technology, you might call it. So we started what we call these rave, some people call rave mass, and I really, it was in Sheffield, England that it began. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you spent time in Sheffield, England. That's where it began, and I met these people, they flew over to Seattle to meet me at a conference. And I was very impressed by what they were doing. And so we adapted it in America our own way, but we've, and then that's when I became an Episcopal priest, the Pope fired me. And then I became an Episcopal priest. And I told the Bishop, Episcopal Bishop of San Francisco, I wanna do it for only one reason, to work with young people to reinvent forms of worship. We've done over 100 of these masses, now we call it the Cosmic Mass. And like we did it in the World Parliament a year ago in Salt Lake City, and there were 400 people in the room and 200 more were banging on the door to get in, but there was no room. I love it. You don't usually see that in church. No, you don't, no. We did it at the University of Colorado years ago, there were 1,400 people in the big ballroom there. And yeah, it really is time. And again, I have young people in their young 30s directing the Mass and overseeing it. And of course I'm there too as an elder, but yeah, we wanna see this catch fire too. And I think it's overdue really. Absolutely. I think we need it. And all kinds of, like we did it for 1,000 people on a Sounds True conference a year ago in the mountains of the Rocky Mountains near Boulder actually. And there were atheists, there were Buddhists, there were rabbis, there were Christians of all denominations. And it was really powerful for everybody. And afterwards an atheist, this woman came up, she said, I am a fierce atheist. I'm so fierce that when I walk down the street and there's a church, I cross the street to go, but she said, when we did this grieving thing, because we always include grieving, it's such an important part of ritual today, it's so needed. She pointed to her heart, when we did the grieving, something happened in here, she said. She said, by the time communion came along, I had to have some. She said, this night has transformed my life forever, she said. So we've had a lot of happenings at these Masses. So I know that it's a hope. I love how you have the balance, because one thing in your retreats, you've invited Ellen Kennedy and you do sacred circle dancing. And as a result of that, I myself have gone to many sacred circle dances and I do feel that it's so important. So yeah, young people are yearning for it, middle age, all of us, we need it, we want it. Craving it. That's right, that's right. And ritual when you look at indigenous people, it's a marvelous way of bringing together the generations and we need that intergenerational, intergenerational sharing and wisdom today. Wisdom comes from the young and wisdom comes from the old. Absolutely. And we need spaces and forms in which this can happen together. And so yeah, there's a lot that we can be doing today. Absolutely, and you're still doing it. You don't believe in retirement the way that we do, right? No, I talk about retiring the word retirement. Yes, I know. And replace it with refirement and requirement. Repurpose. Repurposing, refirement, that happens when you get older. And of course there are a lot of older people today, we're living longer. And they have a lot to give. We shouldn't put them on shelves and we shouldn't put them all in one place like a ghetto with only playing canasta and going golfing. That's not, young people need elders and elders need young people. And you know what, no matter who you are you need purpose. That's right, that's right, meaning. And there's, as we've talked about, there's so many needs out there that no one can be sitting this out, all hands on deck if we're gonna survive because the ecological crisis is a wake up call. Yes, it is. Yes, you don't get to opt out on that one. Exactly. Unfortunately, or fortunately maybe. Yeah, yeah. I've so enjoyed this discussion with you. And I really wanna thank you for being in Maine and giving this much needed talk tonight. Well, thank you and thank you for your invitation. I enjoyed the talk too. Thank you. Well, viewers, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope that you learned a lot and it's unfortunate. I can't air this before this evening's speech that Dr. Fox is giving, but you are hearing the interview and please know that our environment is in trouble. Let's make some choices to help her out. So thank you so much for your time and your interest. Have a good night.