 John Venus and his brother Leo are appropriately named because the only explanation for their understanding of nutrition is that it's from another planet. In their recent video, they attempted to debunk all of the common arguments against a vegan diet off the top of their heads with no research. And it becomes very clear that they have little understanding of the vegan diet, let alone nutrition in general. Once we get past the confirmation bias, repeating vegan stuff ad nauseam, the blatant lies sprinkled in there, very classic to veganism, it becomes very clear that they just parrot information over and over again. And it really makes you wonder what drives these people to spread their message of misinformation. Before we go into this video, one thing I want you guys to keep in mind is that there has never been a group of human beings who have subsisted off of a plant-based diet before. Veganism has literally only been made possible in recent years due to modern access to food, as well as laboratories creating various foods and supplements that allow vegans to essentially not drop dead. Thank you so much for joining me on my brother Leo to join us in this conversation. Today we're going to talk about a very interesting topic. It's going to be about the top five reasons that most people use to discredit the vegan diet today, to this day, like up-to-date stuff. It's not all about protein like it used to be a couple years ago. Now people have gotten serious about their PubMed research and they come up with a lot of new reasons to debunk the vegan diet. Talk through those with Leo and see what we come up with. Yeah, I think it's so interesting because like you said there's so many reasons. I mean I've been vegan now six years and over those six years I've been talking to so many people. I've looked through loads of forums, discussions on comment sections, articles, websites, etc. And the amounts of arguments that you see are just growing. That's why it can feel hopeless for a lot of people trying to consider a vegan diet because it seems like there's just an unending reasons why you shouldn't be doing it. But in my six years of doing, while actually looking at these arguments and then looking at the science to see if these arguments have any merit to them, to this day in six years of doing this I have not found a single reason why we shouldn't go on a plant-based diet. In six years of veganism I have never found one reason or study any research not to be on a plant-based diet. That's like me saying I've been carnivore for six years now and there's nothing I've read that's convinced me that it's bad to eat three pounds of meat a day. Obviously I'm lying through my teeth. I have obviously been presented with information that goes against what I personally do but to just dismiss it and say that it's not significant it's a bit of a misleading way to start a video. So today we're going to talk about five of the most common ones we see. So on the last video we talked a little bit about the hierarchy of evidence, how not all evidence is equal and how one study is just a small picture to a large puzzle. So today we thought we'd touch on another subject which also has a huge impact on how people form their opinions and that is one of pragmatism and the practical relevance to our real life. So for example if you have a study looking at a lab experiment versus a study looking at real life people in society then obviously you want to put more weight on the study looking at people rather than a lab study. Why? Well because we are not petri dishes we are humans so a lot of the things that we see in experiments in the lab in petri dishes or whatever the experimental design is is not as relevant to us as when you study us in our natural form which is living our lives in society. Buddy what would you like? I got studies done on people on rats in vitro plenty of those juicy anecdotes you like so much there is ample data to convince people that a vegan diet is the opposite of optimal human health. We might as well just get into the very very most common examples and you see it all over the place every website I go to and they read about it it's just so commonly used it's the anti-nutrients in the vegan diet. So lectins, phytates, fiber you can't get enough of the nutrients because it's going to block all the absorption from food right? You've probably seen this all over the place. Yes and even recently or in the past year or so one of the most popular health and nutrition books has been called the plant paradox or something and it's all about anti-nutrients and how to avoid lectins. Anti-nutrients is one of the criticism that I see the most nowadays so how should people respond to that because you know it requires some knowledge of how things work in the like you know you have to do some research about lectins and all these anti-nutrients and how they operate and play a role in our health or if they play a role in destroying our health. So how do we go about knowing if this is a good or bad thing like what do we listen to? Anti-nutrients are not hypothetical substances that need to be proven over and over again in studies. They have functions that they perform once they are consumed. Yes, different people have different tolerances to various amounts of anti-nutrients. A great example is if someone gets into a shower they are going to get wet. A 500 pound person might get less wet than a 200 pound person but they are still going to be wet. Should we avoid them or should we have more of them? I think this is one of the classical paradoxes in the overabundance of information we talked about. Is it a plant paradox? This is the real plant paradox because there is so much information it's very difficult to sift through what you should look at and what you shouldn't and this is one of the classical examples of this. For example, let's say you have an experiment where you say that lectins seem to decrease the absorption of most nutrients by 5 to 10 percent and people automatically the knee jerk reaction is, oh well, it decreases absorption that means it's bad for nutrition because we're going to get less nutrition from our food. However, if you then compare that to population studies or real life experiments where you take the nutritional status of people and you find that people who are eating more legumes and grains and vegetables which have a lot of fiber, lectins, phytates, all these things that are being considered anti-nutrients and then you find that these people who are eating a lot of them actually have much better nutrition. They have better markers of nutritional status, they have better health outcomes, they are less sick, they have less heart disease, they have less diabetes and what are we going to trust in? What do you think has more weight? The examples of people who are much healthier and are nutritionally superior or the lab studies that are saying, oh be careful, this might decrease your absorption. And by the way, a lot of lab studies are not even relevant because they are not done in the human body. A lot of things happen in the human body differently than they would in a laboratory and this is why it's very, very risky and you can fall into a lot of traps only looking at ex vivo or outside of the body experimental studies. So I don't know why they're focusing on the idea that lectins block a small amount of nutrient absorption although they can do that through the inflammation they cause. The primary concern about lectins is their role in leaky gut and what happens is various bacteria and pathogens can get through the intestinal lining including the lectins themselves. This can cause insulin resistance, leptin resistance and the immune system will actually attack the cells that lectins bind to. What this tells me is that John and his brother Leo don't really have an understanding of lectins, they didn't do any research whatsoever and somehow they tried to dismiss antinutrients as a whole just after talking about lectins in an incorrect fashion which to me screams crazy. They try to justify it by saying oh well people who consume these foods have lower rates of heart disease and diabetes that's great but I think everyone understands that refined foods, processed foods, other confounding factors like smoking, being sedentary account for a large part of that as well and then he even has the nerve to say that these people have more nutritious diets because they consume these foods. I hope he's not referring to legumes or grains because what people don't realize is that we consume these foods for energy and every indigenous group past and present has consumed grains and legumes to meet caloric requirements. It has never been for a nutritional perspective. The reason for that is these foods only really contain minerals that are bound in a high antinutrient content due to oxalates and phytates and then they might have some kind of protein content that's fairly insignificant in the context of the diet. The main purpose of consuming these grains and legumes is purely from a caloric standpoint. So I really don't know where they're coming from with any of this information, they're not providing any research, they're talking out their ass, it's completely ridiculous on all fronts in that they are literally incorrect on every single thing they say. Exactly and just look at it from a practical standpoint. There are so many things that decrease certain levels of nutrients or hormones and that kind of stuff by small percentages like 10%. Even if the certain food that you're eating or the legume or the bean decreases your absorption of whatever nutrient by 5-10%, that's not going to impact your health at all because the legume is so rich in certain minerals that the decrease 5-10% really doesn't make a difference. It makes sense to avoid something that will give you so much and then eat something else that might not even have the same amount of minerals but then might have something like cholesterol or saturated fats or animal protein that will maybe give us a more bioavailable source of iron for example but will lead to the detriment of our health because of all these other things that are attached to it. We're not talking a 5-10% inhibition of various nutrients. In the case of phytic acid and oxalates, if the food is not prepared properly through soaking, fermenting, sprouting, various indigenous cooking methods, whatever it may be, some minerals are literally not absorbed at all. And the reason we're talking about minerals here is because as I said earlier, these grains and legumes have no significant vitamin content and aren't as nutritious as people make them out to be. Whether it's indigenous groups who have their teeth rotting away and poor bone health compared to other groups of people because they didn't prepare their grains properly to teenage girls drinking kale shakes until they develop goiter. And we have plenty of modern examples of vegans that are unable to consume wheat, they can't consume beans anymore. What happens is these people go on a vegan diet, they increase their legume or grain consumption and then they suddenly become intolerant. There is something to be said about consuming improperly prepared plant foods and how they are not something native to the human diet. Can you consume these high anti-nutrient plant foods with animal foods and be okay? That's debatable, but you would certainly be better off than a vegan. The problem with the vegan diet is you're consuming these high nutrient plant foods inhibiting absorption of various minerals and then you're not getting the nutrients that normally occur in animal foods. So not only are you consuming higher amounts of anti-nutrients, you're getting less amount of various vitamins and minerals in general that would normally occur in an animal foods based diet. Kind of like a double-edged sword. So if you guys want to understand more about anti-nutrients and read literally dozens of studies, I have linked my video in the description. It's unfortunate that they only touched on lectins when there are literally dozens of anti-nutrients out there that you can read up on, but definitely feel free to check that out if you want to learn more. And since you just mentioned it, number two is iron because as we've all heard many, many times before, You need the heme iron, bro. Yeah. Exactly. If you don't have heme iron, you're going to get deficient, all this kind of stuff, and non-heme iron is less better absorbed. But when you actually look again, looking away from the lab studies and the theoretical data and you're looking at real-life population studies, looking at human beings, then you actually see that vegetarians and vegans don't have significantly higher rates of iron deficiency anemia. However, what we do find in the science today is that they do have significantly lower rates of diabetes, lower rates of cardiovascular disease, lower rates of certain types of cancers that have been associated with the consumption of heme iron. So again, it's a question of pragmatism. Look at the real-life examples versus the theoretical risks. Exactly. If you have a choice of getting your iron from non-heme sources or plant sources, then even if, again, the bioavailability or the absorption rate isn't as big as in the heme iron from animal sources, it's still going to give you a lot if you eat sufficient amounts of legumes, for example. And as you say, heme iron is associated with loads of other risks. Again, just looking at stuff from a packaged perspective, seeing what else is attached to that one nutrient that you're looking for is essential. We can't just be looking for one thing and find that one thing in one food and think that everything else is going to be fine because meat and animal products have a lot of single good nutrients that our body needs, but they have so many other bad things, like I just said before. But I just want to repeat myself because it's such an important point. Exactly. No, it's absolutely crucial. It's the package, it's the package that you're eating. It's not, you're not eating only the protein when you eat meat and you're not only eating the calcium when you drink milk, you're not only getting the omega-3 when you eat fish, so that's absolutely so important to think about. What's also important to think about is how you can't get any of those nutrients you just mentioned on a vegan diet because their availability is specific to animal foods. Outside of that, here is a study done on vegan women showing that although the iron intake was above the recommended level, 40% of the young vegan women were iron deficient, suggesting that they should have their status monitored and take supplements. I think at this point it's very clear that John and Leo are either very uninformed and did not do their research or they are intentionally trying to mislead and misguide people. Alright, number three should be probably number one because probably the one you hear the most often, which is protein. Yeah, protein. The protein thing has been the thing that we've been discussing for years. You've been fighting the protein war since, you know, 2009. I carry many scars. Exactly, yeah. You've been doing it for six years. I've been doing it for four years almost. And this is one of the criticisms that come to me the most, especially because I do more fitness and bodybuilding related content. And you know, it's, again, without looking at any science, without looking at anything, I believe in anecdotal evidence and real life examples. Just from my personal experience, coaching people who have been vegan for over 10 years, 15 years even, and just in my own personal body, I know that we're getting enough protein. I know that I'm getting enough protein to build my muscle at an optimal rate. I mean, I didn't see any stagnation periods or any slowdown in my muscle growth and strength. Once turning vegan, I actually made more gains than I was previously. Probably because not only because of the plant protein and dropping animal protein, because it was mostly because of my digestion, being way more efficient. Everything was going through my body and being absorbed way more efficiently. And that is one of the reasons why I was able to progress so much faster. So it's not necessarily, you know, one thing is better than the other. Like, whey protein is worse than rice and pea protein. It's not what we're talking about. We're, again, talking about the packaged thing, like whey protein. There's a lot of side effects that go into that. Absolutely, yeah. And not only that, but it's not only anecdotal evidence we're going off of. Anecdotal evidence is better than nothing. It's basically a study of one person. But then we also, when you go up in the higher quality studies, there are basically no, number one, there are quite few studies being done on this. But out of the studies, we have no studies showing that animal protein is in any way better than plant protein. From a health profile, without even thinking about building muscle, just from a health profile, animal protein seems to be a lot more detrimental to us than plant protein. I can understand that he doesn't have an understanding of the fat-soluble vitamin content of various animal foods. How certain foods like liver literally have every single vitamin mineral element that your body needs to thrive. Not a lot of people know about that. But for him to deny the basic things like B12, iron, various benefits of consuming red meat is just misleading. So if there is no evidence saying that you can't build muscle on a plant-based protein, then why not do that? Because you're at less risk from all the health detriments that is associated with the animal protein. And then number two, the other thing I always want to mention when I talk about protein, is the complete versus incomplete misnomer. Exactly, the amino acid profile. There is no such thing as an incomplete amino acid profile, because every plant protein you can find will have all of the essential amino acids you need, just in different quantities than the animal amino acid profile. So when they say incomplete, it just means lower in certain amino acids. Like leucine, for example. Exactly, but it doesn't mean that it's completely gone. This is what people think, well, if animal protein is complete and plant protein is incomplete, then animal protein must be better. Exactly the case. Yes, that is why cows have digestive systems that are multiple times longer than humans. And they also have very specialized bacteria that literally ferment grass and roughage into fats. I'm sure if vegans were able to do that, they would be in the field eating grass all day for about a week. And then most of them would realize how crazy and impractical it would actually be to be on a vegan diet in nature. And also, you have to think about where the whole thing comes from, where the source of the protein is coming from. It's all growing from the ground. It's all coming from plants that animals are consuming to build their tissues and muscles. And then we're just eating the end result instead of just going for the source. Anyway, I'm sure you guys are sick of hearing this protein thing, or maybe not. I don't know, but I'm sick of talking about it so it might as well move to the next point. All the plant sources of protein that vegans consume were certainly not present in all climates and all parts of the world. And our modern access to food is definitely making it possible to achieve protein from plant foods in ways we would have never been able to in the past. If you try to subsist off of wild rice in nature, you'd probably die in a matter of weeks to months. Yes, if you have a laboratory that can make you pee and soy protein isolates in addition to your steroids and vegan franken foods, then, hey, maybe you can get a reasonable protein intake on a vegan diet. But it's very clear that non-bodybuilder vegans have an incredibly low lean body mass compared to the general population, let alone other people who work out. I can't tell you how many women and people in general that I've interviewed on my channel that have gone from a vegan diet to incorporating reasonable amounts of animal foods again, and their lean body mass increases 10, 15, 20 pounds of muscle just by incorporating animal foods again in their diet. If it was so easy and equal to get protein on a vegan diet, why are we seeing such discrepancies in the lean body mass of plant-based dieters versus people who incorporate animal products into their lifestyle? Which is vitamin A, something that a lot of people have criticized the plant-based diet for in the recent year, I feel like. Again, I feel like I'm just reiterating the same arguments over and over again, but this is basically it's the mentality behind a lot of these misconceptions, these theories that when you look at the real life evidence, it just doesn't pan out. Again, with vitamin A, do we see higher rates of vitamin A deficiency in vegans and vegetarians than in meat-eaters? No, we don't. What is the reason why people think that vegans can't get vitamin A? So basically, in the plant kingdom, we have a pro-vitamin A version found. It's beta-carotene, which our body converts into retinoic acid or retinalin, retinol. And there's this whole conversion process that happens. And this is efficient enough for us to get enough all of the vitamin A we need from beta-carotene. However, then a lot of people will say, well, you know, there's theories that we won't get optimal amounts unless we eat vitamin A. But it turns out, again, like with heme iron, like with so many of these cases, too much vitamin A can actually be toxic. And you can't get too much beta-carotene, but you can get too much vitamin A. And this is actually one of the reasons why taking Accutane, one of those acne medications, can be dangerous, is because you can actually get an overdose of vitamin A. So why are you going to take a theoretical risk, a fear, that is, is a theory. It's not been proven. And then you're going to trump the real-life data that we have with that theory. It just doesn't make sense. The importance of vitamin A eclipses the vegan diet. Retinoic acid, which is converted from retinol, the animal form of vitamin A, or beta-carotene, the plant form of vitamin A, is a precursor to gene expression and cell differentiation, literally how every single cell is made in our body. I can't even convey this idea to people in general that indigenous groups use to consume much higher amounts of vitamin A. And there are so many benefits from the health of your skin, to immune system function, to achieving optimal development during younger stages of life that people are missing by not consuming high levels of vitamin A. So first of all, some people can't even convert carotene to vitamin A, which is an explanation to why some people do very poorly on a vegan diet. Another thing to be concerned about is the conversion rate, which is around 30 to 1 in vegetables and 14 to 1 in fruit. 4 to 1 in various man-made substances. The main thing to keep in mind here is there is a severe diminishing return on how well the body can convert carotene to vitamin A. It is certainly not in an optimal amount. Not only that, it requires fat to be metabolized. And in most climates, I would say 80 to 90% of the world, the only way to obtain fat in nature is from animal foods. So this is one of the main arguments from a practical and logical standpoint that not only can you not obtain optimal amounts of vitamin A from plant foods, you couldn't actually absorb them in nature because you would need to consume animal foods anyway with fat. And animal fat does have vitamin A itself in the form of retinol. So a bit of contradictory information there. One thing I always like bringing up is that pigs that were deficient in vitamin A were born without eyes and that various indigenous groups like the Native Americans and Australian Aborigines used to actually have such incredible eyesight, they could see like 2 to 3 miles away, literally had the sight of a hawk. And now practically everyone wears glasses. So I definitely think there are some missing links in regards to our height, our stature, our physical impressiveness that have deteriorated over the years from the lack of certain animal nutrients in the diet like vitamin A. Okay, moving on to the last one and probably the easiest one to brush off is cholesterol. Yeah, cholesterol. How many times have you heard about that? You're looking a little bit testosterone deficient there, pro. Yeah, I am. I'm getting old, that's why. I think it's like one of these things that people who are very uneducated still use this, but I think most people realize that our bodies produces its own cholesterol and it produces enough of it and the exogenous or the extra cholesterol you get from other foods like animal products are just going to raise your actual natural levels that you need to survive and thrive. Yeah, so again, look at the real life data versus the theories. People who are on vegan vegetarian diets, they don't have a cholesterol deficiency. I've never heard of a cholesterol deficiency as you guys know or a lot of you guys I'm sure know cholesterol is everywhere in our bodies. Every cell uses cholesterol in the membranes in the wall of the cell, so we need to have the ability to produce that cholesterol. Otherwise, if we went on a vegan diet and we needed to eat cholesterol, we would probably get sick very, very quickly. But cholesterol molecules react with animal protein and those two form testosterone, which means gains, right? Exactly. No, but seriously, why do people think that cholesterol increases testosterone and leads to more muscle gain? Well, because testosterone is a steroid hormone, meaning it uses cholesterol as a precursor in the metabolic pathway to produce testosterone. So because people just make, again, assumptions, cholesterol is used for the production of testosterone, so then if you don't eat cholesterol, you won't have the precursor to testosterone so the testosterone goes down and your muscle goes down. But no, you produce all the cholesterol you need, including the cholesterol that's needed to be converted into testosterone in the body. And again, from the perspective of getting everything you need without the associated risks of animal food, the cholesterol one is just the easiest one out of anyone to just be like, this is common sense, avoid it at all costs. We have over 17 million people dying every single year of heart disease and the vegan diet is the only diet that has been proven scientifically not only to efficiently prevent but even to reverse a lot of cases of heart disease. So this reason alone should be more than enough for everyone to say, okay, this is a huge benefit and we should definitely avoid it. In terms of cholesterol, you hear all the time the cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease. The bottom line of it is that all the best science, all the best experts, the best organizations in the world agree that a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol raises your risk of heart disease and it's completely without a single doubt been proven across all of the different countries, all different people, races, it does matter. It's been proven to the point where if you guys ever hear anyone tell you that cholesterol and high saturated fat diets do not cause heart disease, please check the box in your head that says this guy or girl does not know what they're talking about. So your claim to people disagreeing with you is that they don't know what they're talking about. That's great. At least I can provide some studies. Here's one showing not only that LDLC is not associated with heart disease, but that lower cholesterol levels and use of statins actually make heart disease rates worse. Our search for falsifications of the cholesterol hypothesis confirms that it is unable to satisfy any of the Bradford Hill criteria for causality and that the conclusions of the authors of the three reviews are based on misleading statistics, exclusion of unsuccessful trials, and by ignoring numerous contradictory observations. Cholesterol in general is similar to the context of vitamin A. Yes, you can argue okay, you're not going to drop dead because of a lack of cholesterol, but by no means are you getting an optimal amount. The lack of cholesterol in the vegan diet makes sense as to why a lot of other nutrients are very low despite supplementing because saturated fat and cholesterol play so many roles in various cells in the body. Certain vitamins and minerals cannot be metabolized without the presence of cholesterol, especially vitamin D3. I know many, many vegans who took D3 supplements for years had abysmally low levels and then once they went on an animal foods-based diet, even if they stopped the supplement, their D3 levels skyrocketed. And ignore their opinion because like I said, you're literally going against all of the best science out there in the world if you think that that doesn't cause heart disease. I just want to mention that because a lot of people say, oh, some people say it doesn't cause some people, there's no doubt. From the scientific community, there's no doubt whatsoever. It's really important and this is the point that I want to finalize a whole video with. The extremely important point to mention is that the vegan diet is a very general term and we all have to, depending on our deficiencies, our health issues, we all have to personalize this diet to benefit our own needs. If we're trying to heal from type 2 diabetes, for example, we have to tailor our diet to be able to tackle that. And that is why a lot of people just think that it doesn't work because they just try a vegan diet, I just drop animal protein and animal products out of their diet and nothing is fixed and they think it doesn't work and then just go back to eating meat. I've tried the vegan diet. Exactly. So you have to look at it from a perspective of personalization. It really depends what you're looking after, what you thrive most on, what you have to reverse or try to cure. It really depends on your situation but you can always find a way to make a whole food plant-based diet work for you personally. I really do believe that. Take your health into your own hands because health is everything without it. Nothing else is going to be able to be manifested in your life. It's so important to live a healthy lifestyle through nutrition and don't think that these issues by eating processed foods and animal products won't catch up to you. You might feel young now and without any worries but these things build up and cause issues even if you don't feel anything at all right now. So just keep that in mind, do your research and I really implore you to just take the steps towards eating a more whole food plant-based diet. It doesn't mean that you have to drop all meat and animal products all at once. Just take the step in the right direction of replacing the more processed foods and animal products from your diet with better healthier whole plant food. So if you do that you won't go wrong. Anyways, thank you so much for watching this video. If you enjoyed it, let me know in the comment section below and if you have any suggestions for more videos for me and Leo to do while he is here let us know in the comments as well and check his channel out. Link in the description box. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you very soon. Peace out. What I find ridiculously comical is that throughout this whole video they provide no research, don't reference anything, don't even mention the name of a study and then as soon as saturated fat and cholesterol come up they are the first people to point out that there are so many studies done on saturated fat and cholesterol being bad for you. It's unfortunate that these people are role models in general let alone for a vegan diet and I find it funny that when someone follows a vegan diet and suddenly starts talking like their IQ is above 80 that people praise them for their nutritional wisdom and knowledge really drives me crazy that these people have little to no understanding of nutrition in general and literally just parrot information, ad nauseam, repeating conventional wisdom it drives me crazy. I'm not an arrogant person. I always try to learn more and be humble and be open-minded in regards to my constant learning and understanding of diet and nutrition but these people make me look like a genius. I know more about plant foods than I would bet I know more about plant foods than just about any vegan there is. Maybe there are some very well-versed macrobiotic vegans that have been studying plant foods for years and years and years but the average vegan YouTuber has an abysmal understanding of nutrition. That being said, it's really terrible that they're able to mislead people on the main fronts of a vegan diet. It's not healthier for you whether you want to believe it or not a vegan diet is not better for the environment that's based off of propaganda, misleading statistics and although many people would like to believe a vegan diet is better for the animals grinding up baby deer and rodents and killing millions of bugs with pesticides is not exactly good for the environment. It's crazy that a vegan diet is literally wrong on every single front but has people thinking that they are superior to others because of those reasons, oh, I'm healthier than you I'm doing more for the environment I am harming less animals when it's actually not true whatsoever so before I get any more aggravated thank you guys for watching if you guys would like to support the channel please subscribe and share the video as I said, there's the anti-nutrient video I have and then there is a vegan versus carnivore nutrients video that explains some of the things I talked about in this video further if you guys want to check out my Amazon shop there are some nutrient-dense and plant-based options on there for you guys I did recently come out with some hygiene products on my website frankdestoffinal.com I got toothpaste, deodorant, lip balm and moisturizing cream for you guys last but not least if you guys want to reach out to me for consultations in regards to improving your overall health maybe you finally need someone to show you how to soak those oats or make naturally fermented sourdough bread or possibly even source high quality meat on a carnivore diet reach out to me via the email or on the contact form in my website in the description