 Beethoven Sonata, C minor, Opus 13, Patetique, one of the most famous Beethoven Sonatas, just next to Moonlight, to Abassionata, to Waldstein. And everybody who ever played the piano for sure tried at least the second movement, or the beginning of the second movement to get his grandmother to tears. And, well, Kellem from Manchester, now we have in our talks, we have the first real English talking, and it's kind of a lesson of good English pronunciation, and I feel very guilty for my English, but now we can hear the right English. And Kellem is 19 years, and well, as you can read everywhere that this sonata is a kind of emotional explosion and a very strong espressivo and feelings and a lot of other things. You were young, so you are full of power, we could hear it in your performance. What do you think about this sonata? How do you feel it, and how you invest yourself into this music? Well, I've played the sonata since I was about 12 or 13 years old. And, I mean, it's a piece that's sort of, even people that don't play the piano love, it has that immediate quality, it was immediately successful when Beethoven wrote it, age 27, and still today it has this direct immediate power. Various things that struck me about rediscovering it for this production is the real orchestral quality. Obviously we find this in all Beethoven, but especially in this first movement, many parts almost un-pianistic, it sounds almost like a piano reduction of an orchestral score. And this introduction is so famous, everybody knows those first three chords. And these three great pillars that sort of set the sonata off, and these three statements are separate, there's silence in between, and so it's a challenge to connect them and so they make a logical progression from to the next one, and then finally more. And so these big sort of, you could imagine the full orchestra playing is responded by almost perhaps woodwind or just the violin violas and maybe just cellos. And it's in this orchestral nature that the entire piece unfolds. So this grave is a kind of introduction, but in a way it is part of the thematic material of the whole movement because it comes again and again. And what do you think? Is it a preparation? Is it a curtain open? Or is it part of the idea of this first movement? Oh, it's both I think, because it isn't just that we are introduced like in Opus 111. We have this theme which then comes back before the development section in G minor. And then finally before the code or the final few bars we have these pleading chords which return for the third and final time. And so I think the grave sections clearly mark each section and really defines the structure very clearly. And there have been discussions about the repeat in the exposition and there are some sources who argue for repeating the grave, maybe a little bit like the discussion in the last years about the beginning of Chopin's B flat minor sonata. What do you think? Have you tried in concert both versions? Actually in the B flat minor sonata I've played that quite often and I'm convinced I prefer going back to... but many people do go back to the opening. And I personally prefer the traditional way. But who am I to say? One could do it, one could try it out. Yes, for sure, yeah. Not good would be to do it three times. Well, then the Allegro Contrio section. What do you think? Is there a limit of tempo to use it in her interpretation to Opus 28, the major sonata? You have just to feel it and then do what you feel in the moment. What do you think? I think it's about finding that balance between... I mean this opening theme from the Allegro is so energetic and he writes Allegro Motto Contrio with Vigga. And I think it's flying up the keyboard going... and so there's many recordings where they go even as fast as... and so I think it's entirely up to the performer but I personally try and find a balance between excitement and this almost flashes of lightning as it flies up and also having poisoned restraint which is the real challenge in Allegro. And we have to have in mind that it's still a classical sonata so of course in Contrio it would be possible and imaginable to do an acelerando there and to prepare this for Toto and really speed up but maybe this would be too much. I think it would be because Beethoven for sure has this great difficulty of being on the border between classical and romantic. There's many romantic elements but it is always in a classical form even in his latest sonatas there's always a strict form and so I think it really is about finding that balance. And what do you think about passages like this? We had in two years discussion we had the theme here and this is an earlier sonata. Should one play the accompaniment note more clear? Should one point them out maybe even to have the energy? I think the energy is in the harmony and also in the top line and then it continues on into staccato. That is when I think it becomes more clear. Here I think he has slurs on the lower notes and I think it sounds simply an accompaniment. So this is after bar 89 and follow. This interruption of the alego con brio by the grave so this is a quite important moment. We have the fermatas so you think one should take long fermatas and wait a long time to prepare and also to hold the tension. Second movement the old time hit. What do you think? Very interesting and I would just like to point out again there is one book by Joachim Kaiser who was a famous critic of the Süddeutsche Zeitung and he was himself a very good pianist. I often heard him in Munich talking about Beethoven's sonatas with a piano on stage and playing something. It was very good and he discusses several possibilities. This book on the Beethoven sonatas is about 40 years so he discusses the famous pianist at this time but still is a book which really is a milestone in interpretation and I would recommend it strongly. He writes about the different possibilities just to put out the melody and to bring out Deutsche Cantabile or even to show this kind of second violin or viola doing the accompaniment or maybe even later bring it out when there comes triplets. What do you think? I think for sure it is very much like a string quartet it's very clearly written with that in mind. I think the main thing to really think about is quality of tone of the main voice and to really, that's the thing that we're all searching for is this singing tone that is warm. For instance, Ben Amazaevich, a great hero of mine is an absolute exemplar of this and so often I would practice this slow movement as an almost chorale to search for the warmer tone. Can you show? And go through the entire piece like that. Can you do it now with the original accompaniment? And just as an alternative, could you show how it sounds if you do a little bit more of the inner voices? I've always thought of the inner voices as of course they're essential because they give movement because it would just be crotchets. But I think it's almost a sign and so it shouldn't be equal, it shouldn't be more perhaps. And I think if you point out this accompanying notes too much then you lose the feeling for the adagio. I think the adagio really should follow the melody and this is the moment which creates the adagio. How is this in the middle section when it turns to minor and we have this kind of staccati with sforzati. What do you think? Should one think about the first movement and really play it with strong expression, patitique? I think this is another world away from the pathos and dramatic nature of the first. I think this is of course perhaps more sorrowful and we have this long in the upper voice and simply again perhaps second violin and viola discurring. Again providing movement and it's this combination of stillness and yet slight movement which is the key to the whole piece and finding again that balance. But again I think it should be in the background. And so this movement after this exploding first movement gives also the audience a chance to rest a little bit and not only to rest but to dream maybe. So in a way it's early Beethoven. So he was 27, 28. You must imagine here in the Mozartium a young student comes in with his score and says look what I wrote and this is Beethoven. But I think one can already call this one of the first romantic pieces. Yes, in terms of mood and atmosphere it is absolutely very romantic and especially when we go from... Yes. And the whole atmosphere of this entire slow movement is really very romantic and it's about really how it comes back three times always in Ab major but each time slightly changed and it's so what do you do with that? And you could sing more or try and do slightly different phrasing or get an even longer line or perhaps show certain different elements of the harmony. And from the knowledge of the romantic period Schubert's C minor sonata is a very similar beginning where we know how to do sometimes a kind of rubato and I think with this knowledge we cannot ignore this and so it will be almost there and even if you have an orchestra with a baroque strings you maybe do a very nice rehearsal and then you go out and with your mobile phone you would call the taxi. So it is a different time but of course we have to have it in mind I think that is romantic but not too much of course. What do you think of the 3rd movement? The 3rd movement. Kind of Rondo, it's coming again and again and how about the tempo? Well it's only written Allegro and so what does Allegro mean? It's not 126 beats per minute it's completely subjective. I think this movement is a lot lighter in character compared to the 1st movement which is so intense and dramatic. But would you think this is still under certain pressure or it is just relaxing and playing with some really wonderful ideas of articulation and phrasing? Oh no for sure there are many dramatic moments in it and especially in the coda towards the end he gets remarkably dramatic and I think again thinking about connecting bars and getting a long line whilst having a certain poise and restraint it always reminds me of from Beethoven's 3rd Concerto. And so the tempo I mean many recordings they go and then some I went for a slightly more quicker tempo and it's been a great joy and difficulty to know this final movement again. And how about this for Tati and the chords? Should they be really kind of memory of the 1st movement and point them out very strong should they fit in this little bit relaxed atmosphere? I wouldn't say it's a relaxed atmosphere I'd say it's certainly tension and you can diminish 7th but the sound I think should be of course it's fort santo but it should also be round and not like a punch or a hammer it should be more and then there is one point which we discussed and I think there are a lot of different possibilities I would just like to show it it's bar 170, this colando and one really could think where is the end of the colando is this and starts it like this or is the G it's the upbeat for the new tempo could you show these possibilities I always don't know what to do because I think both possibilities are wonderful when you hold it a little bit I would hold it even more and try to do a tempo there so this would be the upbeat but in the bars I think both possibilities are there and I really cannot decide it even after years I love both very much and I think you played it very well and at the end in the coda one could even discuss when it suddenly goes to a flat major just some bars before the end maybe one would be allowed to take a little bit less tempo just to let the sound flow and let the sound work in a flat major but where we talked very often about this for such decisions we should have we should have the telephone number of Beethoven and maybe if the digitalization in world goes on maybe someday we have it and I have a long list of questions I will ask him in my very first call to him and thank you very much thank you very much for your wonderful performance and for your emotion and for the power you worked on it and it is a pleasure to listen thank you