 implement the CARP plan and go with what you think is the most and most beneficial and then tell us what you did. And I think so I would support a more generic but more specific action oriented action based goal document. Andy. I think that there's several things that I think about one is need to think about the number and complexity of the goals and make sure in our own minds that it's reasonable. Because we have some pretty complex goals, and the awful lot of them. And is it fair to ask anybody to handle that number of complex goals, which then gets into the next question as to whether there are there's adequate staffing and resources available to do this, which I touched on a little bit and the evaluation I wrote, because I really am concerned that, you know, in the loss of Sean by and gano and several other senior staff people, including Brianna. It just seemed like we really have hit a point where it just may not be that we have resourced either in people or in funds to expect that does go that that number of goals can get addressed which then gets to my third and final thing, which is that we have to make sure that goals are doable. And to say that we want you to solve the problem of housing of middle income people in Amherst to make that more doable. There isn't, you know, a local problem or statewide problem. This is a national problem. And how can you have what what are we expecting. And is it reasonable again. So, I think that those are the kinds of issues that I hope the GOL. One of the things that I besides the fact that I think there's way too many goals and there's too many sub goals is how do we then look across the goals and say what of this is reasonable. What do we really want to do in other words if we lined up everything mentioned in those goals. And then we were to say, Okay, what is our what are our individual priorities. What are we going to do with that lineup. And then how do we say, of cross all of this what is truly reasonable to expect. So it's not just setting goals, it's saying, what are top priorities, what are we really where do we want the town's resources to be spent. The only thing is to acknowledge and somehow identify within the goals. What are multi year goals, and what could be accomplished in a year or a couple of years, and so that we don't get to the end of, you know, nine or 10 months, Oh, well that that wasn't accomplished when in fact, maybe it's not something that can be accomplished in that year for any number of reasons. So those are a couple of thoughts. I do want to remind counselors, particularly those of us that were on the first council. We actually used to rate the sub goals. And I, that was tedious, and then we decided we'd go to just rating the goal. And yet, all of us find that, you know, G goal sub goal one. Yes, did well sub goal to did well. No, didn't do sub goal three didn't do sub goal for. So that creates yet another complexity as we look at these goals. Thank you. Jennifer. I agree with you, we don't want to have, I think you counted, you said in GOL there were like 90 tasks for the, you know, and that's crazy for that we would ask that of our town manager, but there's, I think some areas where we have to be specific and you know, like Paul's request gets in 2021 we were talking about the waste, you know, hauler bylaw. And then, you know, Paul said well, if we wanted, you know, staff time to be devoted to that we should make that a goal so there are some and it is a multi year because this is a community choice aggregation, which, you know, we have a real benchmark in February, I mean that we're getting close to that. That wasn't ever anticipated certain things that will happen in a year, but maybe perhaps because they're multi year, then we have to specify them in the town manager goals so because they do need staff time devoted to that. So I think that's the balance I don't think we want to just say, well, you know, I think we probably have to give more direction and asking the town manager just to choose what part of the carp that, you know, staff is going to work on we can do that to some extent but again something like community choice aggregation or waste hauler where we were asked to specifically cite that as a goal so that staff resources would be made available. Anna. I think I'm curious about how to best. So what I'm one of the things that I'm struck on is that. Well, some of us have been around longer than others in terms of our engagement on Council and other. Anyway, some of us run around longer than others it's 1055. We don't know all of the complexities in the ins and outs of Paul's job. And he does an amazing job giving us a very thorough self evaluation, but I'm really curious about the idea of if we made this a bit more of a joint process where I'm stuck on my initial action steps, if we were to create those objectives as a Council, and then present them to Paul who would pitch what he believes some of his action steps would be, and then we give feedback on those, because I think that for us to come up with some of the actual actions and deadlines for them and all of that doesn't necessarily take into account what is feasible and Paul is the one who has a better grasp on that so Paul I'm curious about your thoughts on kind of a deeper engagement on that part of the process specifically if we want to include specifics which I think are helpful for all of us in terms of knowing kind of what when done is done. But also recognizing that our help our our efforts are probably more beneficial in the overarching objectives. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of good points being made I think that's a successful goals one in which the, you know, the employee and the employer are sharing that that goal you in you, you know the typical smart goals you have the resources to identify the resources you need and all those things. I think the idea of the Council saying, these are our five top things. Here's the type of thing we want it and then having that be a dialogue I think it's really that would be a very powerful sort of unifying kind of conversation that happens. I think there's the document, the goal document usually tries to do two different things one is it has it serve policy goals and it has the sort of, are you doing your job like are you, you know, doing all the things that balance the budget type things right. And, you know, I don't know. It's never going to be comprehensive because we do a lot of different things and then also new things come up during the course of the year, you know, COVID. So, I think that, you know, I think we just have to decide what we want this document to be. You know, I think that the value just so you know how I look at this, the value of this is really high to me, each of your individual comments because I do read those I pay attention to those, not everyone but you know I try to do that. The, the summary thing that that Lynn works on or whoever's going to work on it. That's sort of an outward facing document, because the content is here the outward facing document is more for the public to see I think that's, when I look at things what I prepare for staff, it's like, it's going into your personnel file. So I do care about they care what it what it reads. And so I think that the purpose of the different documents can mean different things so I think you need to be communicating with your constituents you're elected officials on what you what your evaluation of the manager is. I think in terms of like my, the actual day to day performance that can happen through I hear that here and we can have, you know, I will obviously offer sit down with anybody wants to talk about it. I think shared goals and choosing what those things are and sort of saying like, is this there these the three five things that we really want to get done this year I think that'd be a really powerful document. It's going to be much more powerful than a gigantic list. But I think it's really hard to do because you have to say no, some things and I don't know if the council you've got 13 people. It's going to be hard to reach consensus on that. Totally. I mean, I was also thinking in terms of having many goals and doing little little of 1020 different things versus really going deep and getting some things really done. That's one thing but then I was like, how do we decide and that's kind of what we as 13 people. And that's one of the things that I've struggled with, you know, is how as a council are we prioritizing versus individually because it's my waist holler is that should come before anything else. I mean, I think we have to find a way as a group. I feel very proud of the work we've done in waist holler and where it is. And I didn't push there was a lot of, for example, suggestions that oh it's a very simple by law just pass it. But I knew they were the complexities and the impact it has and so there's a process of proposing it because you know the regulations required that we propose the full by law, and also we need to get feedback from residents to identify as from also there's a process that has to be done but all that to say that I think there is a way for us as a group to come up with criteria for prioritizing such as we've already identified our values in terms of climate action goals, racial equity, all of that Now within that, which other proposals that can start to make an impact with the least amount of resources like which doesn't require a new staff member or, you know, like so that could be one criteria, like, even within waist holler, yes, we could do with a new hire, but there are some best practices that are implemented, even without a new hire, right so I mean that's what I'm trying to say is like, is there a way to put in criteria where the sponsors are sharing that here is how we can have impact in racial equity or in climate change with the least amount of, you know, the maximum impact with least amount of resources. So that could be one criteria. I just need to note that somewhere around 1055 Michelle Miller had to leave the meeting. Pat. I was looking for her because one of the things she's in G a what. No, that's all right. Thank you. I can only remember to hold it and it still doesn't work. There's a word I'd like to share. Michelle made a suggestion that we have a retreat to focus on on what are our goals. And I think that's actually a really good idea because and and for me, the criteria and the actions, because it's the and I'm almost sitting here thinking, well, I don't agree with I'm just making this up with Kathy about such and such. So she and I should work on the action steps for that, you know, some way where we would have to come to some consensus or Mandy and I are what I'm really just using an, you know, an imaginary example. You know, whether or not that's something we want to do. And I think this would be best with the full new council. Then it would be to for this body now although I would hate to lose a Nica's voice, I would hate to lose your voice, things like that. So, Thank you, Pat. You took the words out of my mouth. A shared goal session goal setting session would be very beneficial. And I think at some point, it would be appropriate to include the town manager in that kind of work session to, I mean, I think we are responsible for setting some of the priorities. But we just had the conversation this evening about does does this new initiative take priority over everything else that we've asked the town manager to do for the year and I think that's the discussion I would love to have. Theoretically, if, if something like street light policy had been included as a, as a like an ecac goal or something it was our objective it was like, we really need to focus on dark skies. That would have been for me a more comfortable way to, you know, because we would have all had to to vote on that list. So therefore I would have put my stamp of approval on that being an action item or an objective for the town manager and it would not have, you know, seemed like came from, you know, it got priority over something else that that is on the list. Anyway, sorry about that Ramble. I just, it seems to me that we really would need to find a way to come to consensus because we don't agree about individual priorities whether street lights should come first or this come first or whatever. And so I think, yeah, how do we, how do we do that, I think would be a really valuable experience for all of us. I guess I need at this point to ask Pat and other members of jail, whether you think you've got enough out of this discussion to proceed. No. Yes. Actually, I think agree. Okay. Just to act like a grown up but I don't feel like that at 11 o'clock at night. Yes, I think we have some and I also would encourage any counselor or any staff member Paul Athena to send me the other ideas and I will share those at the next meeting. Pam, did you still have your hand up or. Okay. I did because I just thought of another criteria which I'm forgetting, but it'll come back to me in a minute, but like in terms of the criteria one was like, where we can get the maximum benefit with the least amount of resources and I had another criteria as you were just talking that I wanted to share. Okay. I still want to share it. Okay. It comes back in a minute. I'll share it now. All right, we're going to move on Kathy. I just have a question of what you want me to do because I like the idea of the retreat a lot. I think we have too many goals and we have too many actions and one of my evaluation comments of the manager is we gave you mission impossible and you did as much as you could about mission impossible. So, he at one point said someone came into his office and said, you know, six more staff positions and he said, well, if I can only do one, which one would you choose and they said six. So, I think, you know, I think, so I think the idea of a retreat if we if we could come to the four or five biggies and not put. You told me in that national health care in Amherst, I would have said, don't make that a goal. So we have a few that are are values, they're important values, but I don't know what else I can do on the document I have because I wanted to slim it down all over the place. And if you just want me to red line it or what I'm just asking for what I think I should spend my time. Pat, do you want people to submit to you suggested changes. Yes, I do. And if it redlining works for you then send me a red line copy. And it's a combination of comments sometimes and take this. Yes, with a comment. Why, okay. I have already sent each of you the town manager draft evaluation and actually use track changes and comments. So we'll do the same thing with the gold document. Yes. Do you want to, do you want to use the one that we're already starting to trim down. That's the document I was working on updated 1115. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fine. It doesn't. Yeah. All right. Can I, can I just share it though. I put my hand up. Yes. Oh, the crate one of the criteria that can be used I was thinking was in terms of community feedback. I might personally as a counselor want to put something forward but then there are other things that many counselors are hearing from the community like speeding or even the waste holler it came with a lot of not just the zero ways but there was a lot of community push for it. So like what are the. So that could be one of the not the only criteria but that would be one of the criteria is how much of the community is like is asking for that. I'm going to end the conversation note that Alicia Walker is also left the meeting. The next, there is a motion. It's to refer the town manager evaluation process to the geo coordinate governance organization legislation committee for report and recommendation based on the November 20 2023 town council discussion by and I would left we left the date empty. This is that same that same problem we had with the, the TSO right the town manager one. Should we just end it with discussion and not put a date on and they put it in the carryable. April 30, April 30, they could always do it sounds like a good idea April 30. 2024. Is there a second. Are there any other comments or questions. Shall I use this about this. Okay, then we'll move to a vote. Yes, comment. Yeah. Yes. So, am I understanding this request for referral appropriately. Like, we didn't really have a discussion per se, based on what discussion we didn't. You know, because this, this is not a referral of the goals. And it's not a referral of the document we talked about. That's already drafted. It's a couple people mentioned. We need a better process but we didn't really have a discussion of it. Yeah. I think it's we just take that whole piece out where it says and say recommendation by April 30, 2024. I guess what I want to clarify is are we aiming to simplify the process or simplify the document counselors submit or the memo, Paul, like all of it, like, like, which parts are we, since I'm on GOL, I don't know whether I'll be on it in a month, but like, what are we asking GOL to do. Personally, I think we're asking them to look at the whole process, including timeline, including timelines, including what the town manager is expected to submit, including whether we have mid year conversations, including whether or not we simplify a document, et cetera, et cetera. We remember we started having that conversation at one point and then we never got any further. Andy. Yeah, are we going to have goals for the beginning of the year that the chancellor is going to work on? And I also need to know that just because the finance committee always assumes that there are going to be goals that we're going to then adopt as the goals that work into the budget guidelines. So a little lost now is what we're doing. And the goal issue at this point, I think there seem to be a sense, let's try to simplify them. And Pat has said she will accept suggestions from other people by a date certain and send out a Word document like the document that's already in your packet dated November 15th. Where the GOL already tried to start the process. And the idea is the GOL still has to come forward with some goals. Yes or no, Pat. I think that's true because of what Andy said. So I think, but that, yeah, I think that we need to come up with goals to begin the year with. And that that will we will that's the very beginning of a process in which we will review creating those goals in first place and how we evaluate the manager and that would be due sometime in April. Does that make sense. And also that much prior to that would be a retreat where the new council would discuss goals and priorities. Yeah, and if and depending on how much work we're able to do in GOL, we may be able to present a lot at that in terms of process to at that retreat. Because never mind. Andy, does that make sense. The answer is yes, we still need to have goals, even if after the new council is seated for the discussion takes place and maybe there's revision in the goals, recognizing that you can't keep changing them if you want them accomplished. Yeah, and I'm also going to say that one of the things I need to think about is how can I trust and collaborate with all of you, not just get my way. And that's something I want all of us to think about about the current goals right now. Yeah. I'll answer your question. Yeah, I think that works. It's most important than the end is the town manager needs to begin work on the budget that he's going to present to us on May 1 by January, you know, very beginning of January, which is why we try and do the guidelines by the end of December. And we just have to accept the fact that we're going to come up with something that is going to allow us to do that that incorporates the goals as Pat described them. Right. And if they're adopted by the council and to fit together and we go forward. This is what makes the whole timing so difficult is the relationship of evaluation to future goals to financial guidelines to the budget. And they all fit together in a process. And to decouple one from the other begins to erode the ability to have any continuity. And so there is a motion I made. And I think we've modified and it's to refer the town manager evaluation process to the GOL committee for a report and recommendation by April 30, 2024. Is there a second. Second. Thank you. One other aspect of the goal setting is to include some kind of measurement of like, I know there were a lot of examples of we had so many events, so many trainings. I wasn't clear what is the impact of those trainings or how many people are attending them or even in terms of community events to have some kind of measure like we're doing all these trainings, but. How many people are participating and what is the impact of these to include that in the process. Pam. Okay. Are there any further discussion regarding this motion. Any further changes to the motion. No. All right, then we begin. I guess with myself when Greece person I. Mandy Johanna I a naked loaves. I show Miller's absent Dorothy Pam. Yes. Pam Rooney. Yes. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Hi. Jennifer top. Yes. Alicia Walker's absent. Yes. Shelly Balmille. Yes. Pat DeAngels. Hi. It's unanimous with two counselors absent. The appointments were done. We're going on to. Yes. Can I just ask my question. Do you have any comments to Pat on the town manager goals are due to her by when. And then when do they come back for the council to look at. They have to come back to the council on the fourth. So Pat. The 29th. So you're going to need to be. By the 27th. Monday. Got a lot of homework. Okay. Pat could. Can. Do you have a word document of them. Of those goals. Okay. Athena, could you send it out and ask people to return comments to Pat. Thank you. Committee liaison reports, Mandy, Joe. I guess the only thing I want to say is we're still working on new sense. But the council may receive some comments regarding a new sense bylaw draft because we requested. That. Public feedback. Requests and, and seeking of public feedback, we sent to a number of groups and the, the document that was sent. Said you can email the five counselors that are on the committee or the entire town council. So, so just don't be confused as to. Where that's coming from, but, but that's what it is. Okay. So the document, the, the latest draft of new sense will be in the CRC packet that Athena will post. At some point. But the one that they are commenting on is, is in the last CRC packet. This is a carry over item. It may or may not be a CRC carry over item, depending on how far CRC gets, it will be no matter what a town council carry over item, but it may or may not be out of CRC. I just was trying to figure out where it was going to fit in the packing order. And we did get one of those comments. And I did refer it to, I did suggest that people, the person that submitted it, put it in through the general public comment. Okay. Elementary school building, Kathy. It's the same report I gave last time the next full committee member meeting is the eighth we did get. We're on our way to going before the conservation commission and the planning board. We just haven't quite got the exact dates for that. And we're on our way to starting to dig at the site. And, and the early spring. I mean, the first packages due to go out, assuming we hit go over conservation commission and planning board to get there. So there is a meeting on the eighth. When does the fence go up? Kathy. When does the fence go up? I think it goes up. Right. When this, the package goes out in like February. So maybe we're going to be able to do that. So it's got a two phase, but I think the fence has to be up while they're digging. So no one climbs on the equipment that will be there. Right. That's why I asked. Finance committee. Andy. I think between. Right. When this, the package goes out in like February. So maybe March because the first part is moving dirt and bringing soil and really preparing the ground. So the physical construction isn't until the summertime. So it's got a two phase, but I think the fence has to be up while they're digging. Right. I think between the written report and all of you've heard already that you've had the report. Okay. GOL Pat. I have nothing else to add right now. Jones library and Nica. Well, I was out of town and reception last week. So I'm going to call on both Paul and Hannah if I could please. There was no meeting last week. There was no Jones library meeting. I can do TSO though. Sorry. I'm sorry. You were fine. I was just TSO on. This is past 11 PM humor. Okay. So I'm going to take, which isn't funny. So I'm going to take TSO TSO worked on the carryover memo for a while. We also started to talk about the. The, the two separate processes, one of establishing safety zone criteria and the second of talking about traffic calming at Cushman Scott. We sought feedback from the transportation advisory committee. We also sought feedback from the transportation advisory committee. Regarding the traffic calming at Cushman Scott. Thank you, Athena for sending out the speed study data to Tracy today. They are meeting on December 4th. Special. Thank you to the chair of tech for calling that meeting. They were not planning on meeting. And so we appreciate them. Accommodating our timeline. Sorry. Thank you. 30th. To be ready for our meeting the next week. Thank you. So the other thing about this is that we are separating out that traffic calming measures and the safety zone criteria will need to be something separate so that we don't accidentally create precedent. We also got updates on waste taller, which is continuing to press along, but we haven't final, they haven't finished reading through and summarizing all of the RFI responses. And then we also talked about Shalini's community engagement proposal, which will be coming back to TSO with a slightly different motion on how to proceed with that moving forward. Okay. Are there any. Committee liaison reports. Yes, Dorothy. You're muted. Okay. CSS JC is having two public forums. One on Cress online forum on the 29th of November. At 630 to 830. And a public forum in person in at town hall. On Saturday, the 2nd of December from 10 a.m. to 12 p.m. That's it. Thank you. Paul, anything from town managers. Nope. With regard to president's report, I didn't do one this week. I had something else I was working on. And any future agenda items. Besides the fact that we may get nuisance by law. But I think we're going to be able to do that. And I think we're going to be able to do that. Council. Councilor comments. I have one. Yes. When you say future agenda items, I, you did a miraculous job for about five meetings or four meetings in a row. And I was sure it was to encourage people to run for council. That we could have short, shorter council meetings. So I know agenda management is tough. But I think we should try to. If we can't get to things, we just can't get to things. And so our own timeline should be longer. That we shouldn't expect everything to move quite as fast. So that's just a request. I mean, I don't think there was any way of avoiding tonight because we also. Rightfully. Open it up for public, but. It looks like the fourth is going to be painful again. Are there any other comments? Seeing none. I'm going to adjourn the meeting at 1125.