 They have a network and it's all data. We had the most retail traders ever during COVID, right? So they got two years of that data and every day these algos are able to get better. Every single day we're like, we do not adapt that fast. They can take the trades from today and then get changed the pattern or the time a little bit tomorrow just to fuck with people. Like I think one of them today was MMV. They're really changing it in such a small way and every day it seems like it's a little bit different. Let's go on guys. We're back with another episode of the After Hours podcast. Today we have a long time friend of all of ours here. We have Mike Spinoza, better known as Trade Like Mike. So Mike, thank you for coming on man. Appreciate it guys. Of course, of course. We're really excited. So Mike, a lot of people know you as the day trader that you are but I think a lot of people don't know that you had a history on Wall Street before you were a trader. So if you kind of walk us through what it was like living in that Wall Street world and some things that you saw or some things that you learned there. Yeah, so I basically, like everyone went to college looking for like, I want to be investment banker or I want to work at a hedge fund. No one really knows what that means, right? So I got a bunch of licenses and I was a broker and an analyst for a little bit. Honestly it was super boring. It wasn't what everyone thinks it's gonna be as a broker. It's a lot of just, it's really customer service more than investment knowledge. A lot of the times because you're catering to people and it's a very thankless business. So the analyst part was like me trying to take a small cap company and using fundamental analysis to give it a price target and like us now look at that like what a joke, right? I found out that way that like that's impossible. So I always thought that career was kind of a joke and then just like found a trading after and I was like, I feel like this is the only thing left because I've realized that the other paths are kind of gauze and you're susceptible to the system, right? I always felt like brokers, I was like commission's gonna go to zero and we see that that was like at least a decade ago and like now we're there, right? So that's where technology comes in and removes jobs. And so I always thought the broker analyst jobs are gonna be gone, they probably will be in the next like in our lifetime, right? Absolutely. Did you find that like working on Wall Street where you just like not like fulfilled at all? Was it just like a bottomless like zombie kind of? Definitely, yep, a lot of, you feel like a number. It's a lot of alpha males. So everyone's trying to outperform each other. So that's not really authentic people, right? And it's a grind, it was definitely a grind. I felt like as a broker I was basically when I started out, like we were getting 300 bucks a week. So imagine that today, right? Like people would be like, nope, right? And so, but the point was to build your book up and I was probably making like a thousand phone calls a day to build up my book. So like that, you know, do the math. How many hours do you really have to be working? Like you have to be on the phone like 13 hours a day, you know, and then you're freaking sleeping for as eaten, going to the gym, whatever's left at that point, right? And so that's where the career is not even worth it. You know, it's like any other job, you felt like it was a rat race for sure. I can never knew it. I feel like, especially now knowing like how I trade stocks and stuff like that. Like I used to think the dream was to like run a hedge fund or like, you know, be an animal and do all that stuff. And like now looking at it, like that sounds like so boring and dull. Was it like, especially now for you? Cause I know- You don't know when you're young, right? You don't know when you're young. You think you're gonna be- I was very on paper, right? And you think that all your professors are smart. In hindsight, they're professors for a reason because they couldn't figure it out, right? So it's a tough, but it's a good experience for everyone. It's just, I feel like I started at 27. So I wish someone kind of kind of saved me 10 years of figuring it out, you know, that's another story. Was there a catalyst that propelled you to say, you know what bro, like I'm quitting and that's time to do it for myself? Yeah, it was like a feeling of desperation and like lack of control in my life is the truth. You know, like waking up every morning and not really able to like do what you want. And then there was just like a leap of faith. I'll give credit cause this is like, oh, gee, shit, foost was, I saw his videos and I was like, I'll never forget showing my boss. Like, you ever, you ever see this guy before? He's like, get back to work. No, and I was like, I don't mind. Like, fuck you dude, I'm about to quit because these videos are dope. And I felt like if I didn't try, cause I was 27, you know, that 30 number is like psychological. I'm like, I have to try now because like, you know, when you're 35, 40, it's a different situation for people, right? So that's where I always tell people like your 20s is where you can fuck around, right? And like take the risks. So it was like, how old are you now? 34. 34. Yeah. I started at like, like fucking, I think I quit my job like 25, 26 for like six months was like trying to figure out the trading stuff for that, like really doing it properly. So I've been, it's like my eighth year. Yeah. That's crazy. I remember that video so clearly too. Cause I remember getting into trading and seeing you sitting on the couch, you had your Frenchie, right? It's crazy cause my life since then has changed so dramatically that when I look back on it, there's a lot of like disassociation, which is like, it feels like a different life. That's fine. I moved down to Florida right there in COVID and that kind of just, you know, everyone has their own story, right? Yeah. Is that playing like a whole thing for you? Like you went from this like kind of the, not I want to say depressed, but like not happy with your job, not happy with life. Definitely depressed. That was super depressed. And then you just moved to like sunny Florida. And like, was that something that instantly just like, even make your trading better? Was it like everything? Definitely. I mean, on paper, yeah. I was like a trader that was making, you know, like 200 to 300, 400 K. And then down here got me to that next level because I felt like Florida with the sun and the lifestyle. This is a stressful career. I think something that needs to be addressed is, I don't think the body interprets trading is healthy. I think it's super bad. The cortisol, it's a drug in terms of the stress. It's like being in a casino all day, right? So I think if you don't have a proper outlet to allow that stress to naturally leave the body, you long-term you're fucked, you're so fucked. You don't think about that when you're young. And then this is where, you know, I'm 34 now. It's something you have to start to consider because I know older traders that have had health problems because of not handling this career properly. Is it true? Was there anything from that job that like you learned that you still use today or just absolutely nothing? I learned that the fundamentals are bullshit in terms of certain cap, in the short-term with certain market cap stocks. And then I just learned the broker side with a little bit of like clearing firms and, you know, that side of business a little bit but nothing major, like syndicate business which is like IPOs and like underwriting business, private placements, et cetera. Yeah, definitely use those. I would say today, like as far as like underwriting private placement, like it's all very like relevant, I would say. Yeah, especially when you're looking at filings with small caps, right? And they start to use like certain pipes and stuff like that. Yeah. When you started trading, like, did you have instant success or did you kind of struggle at what, when you started trading, were you buying breakouts? Do you start with options? Like, well, how do you start? Do you have any success or what kind of led to you, like you said, making that 400K a year because it doesn't happen overnight, I believe, right? Yeah, so it was a lot of trial and error. So as a broker, it was a lot of like swing trading, large caps and stuff. So I got to, I guess you could say I was experiencing that, right? I would mess around with options on the side and then realize that those are just like playing blackjack. And it's like more like roulette is what options trading feels like. So, and then experiencing just seeing where you can make like a few percentage a year on your money with some of these, you know, whether it's like a CD or a reader, like private placement, something like that. And then so I saw the whole ball of wax and then I was like, all right, it looks like intraday trading equities is like the next thing. And so I started buying only longing and buying breakouts and like consolidation patterns or stocks that like are down 80%, you know? And that definitely worked for, you realize that it's a lot of like, you have to take a lot of those setups and manage your risk properly. It was like the first couple of years of longing was just like, I was able to pay my bills and that's it, which was like, I don't know, 40 to 50 K a year. So- It's so impressive. Definitely impressive. I guess, you know, I'm coming from Washington. You definitely, I definitely have an understanding of the market, like liquidity and charts a little bit. So that probably definitely helps with the learning curve. Do you find now it's like way harder to get into trading as like a new trader? Cause like now you've experienced like a lot of different markets coming from like COVID to now it's like slower time. Do you find it's a lot harder now? It's just different. I think that I don't think it's harder. I just think the window of edge gets smaller. So like those setups that we're used to panning out in a longer period of time were happening in like 10 minutes. I'm sure you can write Alex, do you feel that way? Some of these things happen so fast with technology that that's the patterns are still the same. They just happen faster at a different time frame. Correct, right? How do you keep yourself sharp then? Like how do you keep yourself like, like I know, I know I've talked to you a lot about like fine body and health and stuff. Is that all you can do in your opinion is just stay- Green time matters. I think if you can't not put in the screen time, right? Or if you're, you know, I don't really like track data, not like a Excel guy. I think that you definitely need to put in the screen time because the brain is a pattern recognition tool. So if you put yourself in front of the screens and see these plays happen, then I think you'll be in tune with the market. But that doesn't mean still that, you know, it's still a high failure rate business, right? So combination of things. I think you got to keep your health right as well as put in the screen time, right? Manage the stress of the business. There's definitely a lot to it in my opinion. Is there any ticker that you've kind of had like an aha moment on that you remember or not really just more so pattern recognition? Cause I know we've had some other people on here where they're like, this ticker is the ticker that really like kind of changed my career in terms of process or in terms of- No, I wish. Yeah. I'm a big, like, I'm not like a big size trader. I would just, I'm like singles and doubles and like that was really kind of what I pride myself on. Like my first, during COVID it changed, like the liquidity in the market changed, right? Everyone's sizing changed, but before that, I didn't have a, I had like two red months in like six years. And then my drawdowns were very limited because I was very big on managing my risk. And then when you take the next level, obviously that risk has to go up. There's no such thing, right? So natural evolution. But I think that the sizing, you could still be a successful trader, not taking massive size in my like 30K account, like make it 500 to 2000, a few days a week, completely realistic for anyone. And I think that that's applicable for more people. Most people don't have that much money, right? So. Counter percent. What do you think allows you to kind of have that like risk management, like so kind of in tune, you know? Because a lot of people, the reason why they're not successful is because of the risk management. Yeah, there's a lot of risk management. So what do you think it is like kind of about you that or is it just your personality that you're just a good risk manager or like what do you think the secret is in terms of that? It's a combination I think of like keeping your, so I'm big on your size is your stop, right? So like you never take enough size that could really ruin you because you think you're gonna stop out until it's halted, right? And then you gotta adapt. So your sizing, I keep my sizing, right? And then I've never allowed like one stock to blow me out of the water. I think also there should be a rule of thumb, like you should never risk like more than 10% of your account in any single trade. So like if you have a 30K account, you should be risking like 300 to 500 and never be, and then if you're wrong, like you take two trades and you're wrong. A lot of the time is like you're gonna continue to be wrong or like the first to reach. I'm big on like today I traded Corvana. I was wrong within the first like five minutes and then I stopped and then traded the rest of the day. Cause if you know when you're just like, it's kind of like sports where when you know you're off, you like, you know you're off. There's definitely a mental intuition in my opinion. I don't know how you guys feel about that, Alex. You know, like when you're off or when you feel in the zone, you know you're in the zone, right? There's an intuition for sure. Yeah. Exactly. Mike, what I noticed about you, man, is even the way that you're answering these questions, it's all psychology based. You understand at a very, very firm level that trading is a battle of your mind. I think a lot of people need to kind of just take a step back and just understand that. Cause what Mike is saying is like, it's a very stressful job. You need to be able to have an outlet. So getting out of New York and going to Florida is one way to fix it. By making sure that you're not aggressively sizing, you're keeping your stress under control. By making sure that, you know, you're giving yourself a proper stop in terms of risk, in terms of when to attack and when to not attack. Again, it's helping your mental capability to attack these stocks. I think for all the viewers listening, you should really take a second to understand that this is really deeply a mental sport, right? This is a mental sport at the highest level. You know, an example of a physical sport is like football soccer. We're not playing, you know, football here, but we're playing a different type of sport, a mental sport. And if we're not conditioning properly the way that Mike is saying whatever that may be in your own personal life, in terms of risk, location, and stops, then over time, you're just doing it because the brain can only handle so much stress. The brain can only handle so much pressure and you actively work out. I know that you take mushrooms. So is there anything that you do in your routine aside from those, or maybe you get into more of that of how you are able to mentally stay sharp and stay on your game at all times? Yeah, so I think that some of the biohacking is big because if we wanna, it's a mental sport, right? So if we're playing football and you wanna keep your body strong, there's certain stuff you're gonna do right, but what we can do for our minds. So like working out in the morning is more about getting the blood flow going. So like pre-market was a huge correlation with like walking for like 30 minutes to an hour. And this way you sit at the desk and like your brain is sharp, right? So like that's one way to do it. Making sure you're super hydrated. We're using our brain all day. I take those spoonfuls of salt. I don't know if you guys have seen that lately. It's starting to like come about, which is funny cause all of our parents like no salt, but I've been in situations where I've gotten so dehydrated that you're supposed to a spoonful of salt. So that's the only thing I bring you back. You know, the mushrooms we can get into, I smoke a lot of pot. I'm fine like talking about that because there's on the CV, that's not CBD website, like the board of health, I can send you guys the link after. It proves that cannabis, multiple things. One of them is keeping foreign substances out of the body. So insert COVID or, you know, any type of sickness. I've been smoking weed my entire life, like a decade. I won't smoke pre-market. I'll wait till after four in all fairness. That helps me relax after the stressful day. I think that needs to be, you know, booze is gonna, booze is cancer to me. Booze is like death in a bottle. You know, I don't really, I'll have like a beer now and then I'd rather smoke weed and take some mushies. Mushies, it's like peanut butter and jelly. I feel like. It's crazy. And mushrooms, believe it or not. I'm not a doctrinal fairness. This is just from my experience. I have some homies that also dabbles, that agree, but mushrooms are really good for, like gut health and inflammation. So like I take some, a small micro and I'll work out in the morning. And like that, it makes me feel incredibly good where the whole marrow thing of right with eating the mushroom, like to me, they got it from that. And that helps your brain just solely relax. We're like after the day or even on the weekend. You don't even think about your screens. You ain't thinking about nothing. Your brain just goes into this. You have this thing where you eat mushrooms that's called the yawn, where you're just yawning all the time. It could be like the middle of the day because your brain is so relaxed. It's definitely something every trader should consider. The psychedelics are definitely allows your brain to relax. Weed is like, I know people think it's for the mind, definitely, but it's a lot of body. CBD is for the body. THC is for the brain. I could write a book on all this shit is the truth. I lost a ton of times. That's something else. I've done it. What was that experience like when you did that? It's like, it really is, it's called, the best word is it's lucid dreaming. There's a lot of like throwing up and purging, which they say is like you throwing up parts yourself that you don't like, which is very valid. You go through like the worst experience of your life to reach bliss for like 20 minutes. But it helps your brain get to a different place so you can have a different perspective on things. And I think this all goes back to like neuroplasticity, you know, like even this game, this is about like how adaptable is your brain even under stress, right? So that's where I think psychedelics help the brain work out if that makes sense, you know? Absolutely. It's crazy to me because something you've said before is like that as traders too, we all have like, I think you said like almost like a shelf life, like our career, like it's not meant to- Yeah, that's definitely. No one wants to think about that, you know? Yeah. You get older and I think about it because I think to do this career at 40 is different than starting at 25, you know? I mean, family, you got kids, you can't take the same risk, you know? So definitely. And the shelf life too in terms of like, it's a sport, right? So how long would you guys say most athletes' careers are? Maybe at 10 years if they're lucky. Maybe it's like five to eight. So trading, you know, I see it at least already. My bandwidth is not the same. So like I can't trade eight stocks at once and you know, make the same quality decision all of them. So I think that that's just something people have to think about. You know, and there's an end goal in trading. I don't think enough people talk about. You should have, what's your exit strategy? And no one wants to really think about that because they'll just like, right? I see you smiling, Harry. You're like, I get there, I'll figure it out. Okay, you already know what I was going to fucking ask. Because I was going to say, what the hell is your exit strategy? That doesn't look right. You know, like if you're a basketball player, right, what's your exit strategy? Right, if you're an NBA? Yeah. Right? Yeah. That'd be a blueprint, right? So I think that we need to have an asset, like real estate, I think is huge for traders. I don't think, I think if you rent forever, you're just going to size up forever. I think real estate's big. You need to build a nest egg. You know, like your nest egg as a trader, it needs to be out of between like half a million plus. And then you have that nest egg, and then you make sure that you never risk that nest egg and try and slowly grow that over time. And any money that you have outside of that is like trading and risk, and you can afford to lose that. But you never lose your nest egg. And then I think that that's a building point for people because I think if you trade properly, then any other job to get half a million bucks a year, you got to make like 50, 60 K a year. It's going to take you 10 years. After taxes, you know, maybe longer. Trading is a career where maybe that's a few years. And that's something that I think people can build off if you ever want to risk losing that. And there's a lot of people in the industries, nothing wrong with sizable traders. Like I know you take good size outs, you had to manage your risk though. And you know, like where you can afford to lose. But anyone that loses like half a million is fucking done. So like, I think that the blueprint should be based off of less than that, right? Than trying to be like a 100 million dollar trader, which you know, trying to get to the hall of fame being like four foot seven. You know, odds are like really just against you. You know, and there are building blocks to the career as well as building blocks on the way out. You know, desizing and making sure you don't lose. Well, you spend 10 years, you know, working up to. Because I'm sure you, I've seen people, I'm sure everyone and people are transparent sometimes in this industry with their losses, but like to make people vomit. You see anyone lose like seven figures. Yeah, it's, you know, I have some, some homies that like have family that are from all street and they're like stories back in the day of traders losing like three million a day and jumping in front of trains. And no one wants to act like, you know, you don't even think about that because you wouldn't even, you know, oh, that'll never happen to me. But imagine you put yourself in that position. That's what's part of this career. Right? So there should be sizing up and then like sizing down. And I think like the base of an exit strategy is to know when to start sizing down, you know. How do you, how do you handle because we all know with this industry like it brings the highest highs and the lowest lows. And like I've seen you talk about how like a bad loss like a loss just feels so shitty and it doesn't always feel better than that like little win. Like it's just that the down of that loss. How do you manage that perspective of like keeping it so in check? Cause like you are someone who's very consistent. You always do very well every day. And, you know, and I've seen you manage risk on a losing day and how do you kind of keep that in check? It's a lot of you get numb to it a little bit. Like, I mean, I've had days where I've lost like 50, 60 K. I had a day where I was like down 120 and then ended up down like 70. So I've like, I've had losses, but I think that like my realization recently is that there's certain risks that's not worth it for me. And so once I get down like two to five K all of my fat losses, like I can look at my trade review and I always start up and then once I'm down, I go red from like a five figure green. So I go red. I'm just like, I know what happens here. And I think that's knowing yourself cause I'm definitely have like a addictive personality when it like anyone else when it comes to things. And so I can get into that tunnel vision pretty quick, you know? And I think once you go there a few times that fear scares enough of you. It showed at least where you want to change, you know? And that's the part where I think requires people to kind of beware of themselves, right? Absolutely. You're like so realistic, dude. Like you're very much like a, like you're very down to earth, but I feel like you have like a good perspective on like money and like all like the parts of this game. Why is it that you think that most other people aren't like this? Like a lot of people won't tell you kind of like the darkness of it. I think that so like when I was started on Wall Shoot it was a lot of harsh criticism, especially as a broker. And so you develop that thick skin and you know like when to take criticism well. And so like this business is immediate feedback, right? So like this is probably one of the only careers that's like within 30 seconds you're getting feedback. So you wait like all week for that shit, right? So you get that immediate feedback and you're either going to take it and as a lesson or you're going to be stubborn as fuck and be like, no, like you're wrong. I'm right. And I think that like F, you know, it takes some, you know, I think it's, I don't know why. I don't know why people are super stubborn nowadays. No one really wants, it's a societal thing I feel like, right? No one wants to take constructive criticism well. It takes the, I think it's that's the higher road which seems difficult for people. Definitely early on in my career taking that criticism at the certain careers like the Wall Street's brutal where definitely that whole like idea of those alpha males and like shredding each other every second of the day even though they're your homies it's in like the whole environment. It's healthy in a messed up way. I'm sure Boston and New York they're a little bit like that, right? That like harsh, I think that's what builds the thickness in people, you know? And so this career is gonna let you know real quick, you know how sensitive you are and you either adapt to that or you don't, you know? It's part of the career, I guess. Makes sense. What's your trading strategy like now? Is it mostly just like scalping? Is it more so kind of like trying to hold for a bit bigger moves? Like that day one gap or gaps up and like what's in your mind? Like what are you thinking? I tell my group lately and like avoid the day one short just like completely. So if I'm looking at day one it's a long and I'm probably scalping it but I'm usually waiting until after day one to short because I think that that's one of the best rules you could have right now just for survival, you know? There's some rules like it's up 300% day one or 200% day one, I'll take a look but other than that it's a lot of scalping, right? If you can catch a 10 or 20% move, right? And risk like three to 5% that's like an ideal trade for me. Anything else after that is just like extra. But I think that everyone can agree the all day faders are tough lately, right? They pretty much don't exist anymore. They don't exist anymore. It was too good and like anything else things change, right? The algo is not smart. And what I realized this year is the algos got real smart real quick. And I think it's because when their market hit and stocks were not really going up the algos needed to find an edge in something else. I think they found their edge in squeezing these stocks midday when catching everyone off guard. Definitely. I mean, so here's some cool stuff I guess I'll share without naming any firms but some stuff about Wall Street and this order flow, right? And the firms that capture most of this order flow they have a network where they bring in they bring in trading psychologists they bring in nerds that are just mathematicians, right? And it's all data. So imagine they got all these traders who had the most retail traders ever during COVID, right? So they got two years of that data and every day these algos are able to get better. Like every single day where like we do not adapt that fast they can take the trades from today and then get changed the pattern or the time a little bit tomorrow just to fuck with people. Like I think one of them today was MMV. You guys are watching that move, you know the clear outs are getting violent. So like they're really changing it in such a small way. And you guys see it where it does matter and every day it seems like it's a little bit different. Dude, look at these changes. Wow. I didn't even see that today. Yeah, it was violent. It was a China ticker. They take it to low of the day. They got it almost to halt up at high of the day and they take it again. So what happens when they say, all right, let's do that maybe three more times before we pull it or let's do it then and then we'll consolidate it. Then we'll do it another three times. And this is where I think technology does matter because that edge is still there. It's just more levels and liquidity based than it is pattern. But I think the whole band's definitely matter. So that's kind of, I don't know how you manage your sizes, your risk at that point, right? Yeah, and it's really funny because like I feel like whenever we get together we always talk about these conspiracy theories. Yeah, definitely. One of the conspiracy theories that we've been talking about a lot is the broker black boxing. So like a lot of people don't know is a lot of brokers what they'll do to get some extra money because think about it, a lot of brokers charge them free commissions or the commission's close to zero. So like they need their trade after trade among a size that at least make a little bit of money, right? Things are different back then because they would charge or make money with different bucks. Now, they need to find ways to make money whether it be selling order flow, selling short order flow that you talk about Mike or what a lot of them do is a lot of brokers know that 90% of traders fail. So if 90% of traders fail, if you just do the opposite of that you'll probably make money. So a lot of these brokers, not specifically but a lot of these brokers, what they'll do is they'll take the opposite side of your trade. So like let's say you're a brainer trader and you're buying MMV, the broker's like, wait a second, 90% of traders are going to fail. So if this guy's buying it, it's probably going to do the inverse. Obviously it's going to do the inverse. So what they'll do is they'll either front run your orders, they'll take the opposite side of the trade, they'll hedge themselves and it's almost like they are playing their own game within the game. So I mean, are there any other conspiracy theories that you know Mike or whether they're- It's a lot of that where it's essentially, yeah, I know they can tag accounts. So like if you're a sizable trader, they can specifically sell the order flow of your account. So if you're a sizable trader, that's something that you have to think about because it's essentially like this. So also the brokers, they have a nest egg too, right? So what if they're all their traders were short tops and brokers that not smart enough then that whole broker can go under, right? So they look at it from that standpoint, how do we manage our risk? So again, and I don't know exactly and not naming any broker specifically whatsoever, but if I was a broker, it would be like, all right, if he's short at nine bucks, I should go long at nine oh one. So that if he blows up, then at least we'll be okay. That seems pretty logical, right? So that's called boxing for anyone that doesn't know, right? I'm gonna box my trades so that it's like basically the analogy is over let, there's black and red. I'm gonna bet 10 bucks on both and then nothing can happen to you as long as you hit red, when it's red and hit black, when it's black back, but if the brokers will do that to manage their risk and the question you have to ask yourself is if they can do that, then like anyone can, right? As long as they have that order flow. Correct, and the brokers can sell that order flow. And then they can sell that order. They'll say that there's plenty of funds, there's plenty of places that'll buy that flow and do it themselves. Prop firms, like they should, example is a prop firm. They know who's short what at what price and at what size, right? So if you're a prop firm with a lot of traders, you can say, oh, look, we're short 300,000 shares at an average price of this. I'm pretty sure to anyone that's pretty valuable information now. Yeah, we've gotten to the market where the edge has gotten so desperate that it's like the big players have gotten into this small space, like you said, right, Alex? The loophole that I can't figure out is how they can buy the float intraday and not have to file. I think the rule is that as long as they dump it by the end of the day, they should be fine. And that's why we see a lot of these end of the day, like two, one, two, one, two, one, two, one. Push, exit, exit, exit, exit. Yeah, cause the after hours that, you know, you see the things trading after hours like they're during the market. Yeah, it's like a psychopath. Yeah, they dump it at two or three and they'll even buy it back at after hours for pre-market the next morning. It's like- So the question is, they hold, are they managing, you know, are they working a core for fucking a week? It could be anything, but like an example today is U-car. I mean, here, if you want to pull up the two-day chart, they have destroyed U-car into the clothes yesterday and then they just ramped it up after hours, ramped up pre-market and boom. Because the question is, were they still in more than 10% overnight for that move to happen? Yeah, look at this, man. They destroyed it in the clothes and then they just brought it right back at 4 a.m. when no one's looking, no liquidity and boom. Dude, these guys are just so smart that they can probably look at the short interest and they can see, they know exactly where- It's a bad game. They have the data, they have the data. They can do it themselves. Yup. If you rip these things, 50 to- So most people trade on margin, right? Most people. So if you move it 50 to 100% from the price, you're gonna create a margin call. And then whether you like it or not, I'm sure maybe we've all experienced this, your broker is gonna sell you out. They can call you, they can email you. If you don't answer, you're gonna get margined out. So they know that if they can get it from two to four, they're probably gonna create some habit, right? And that I think is what I tell some of my group is something to think about from a percentage standpoint when you're trying to gauge like, where could this thing go? Or where would it create a really fat margin call for people, right? That's the way you gotta think about it these days. Cause like, if you were thinking about it, let's say 25% is freaking nothing on some of these. Nothing. And then they move it like 500% and then they know that like, all right, if there's 500,000 shares short at this price, then guess where our cover is, wherever those shares are. And I think it's where we've gotten. Yeah. I think this market has like wiped out so many traders cause like in my opinion, and I've been trading for like six years, I think this is the hardest market I've seen for like a lot of people. And I think if you're new, I think it's tough. I think it's like, it's hard to battle something like this. Like you said, the shrinking edge and it's difficult. It's definitely about, I think there's still edge there. It's just the sizing in my opinion is what keeps people safe, right? As long as you keep your sizing proper and it's a lot of waiting. We got spoiled during the past two years during the pandemic because the action was internet bubble shit. I'm sure everyone would agree. And then before that though, it was a lot of waiting. Don't you feel that way, Alex? It was like, maybe two, three days a week you'd get a solid setup. And then a lot of the time you were just bored. Yeah, 2020, 2021 was really different because if I remember correct, now it seems like an eternity ago, right? Cause so much shit happens to set. It was like three to five stocks a day every single day, every single day, every single day. And now what we're getting is, well, the market's kind of heated up a little bit more but I would say maybe like eight months ago, six to eight months ago, there was maybe one stock a week if we're lucky. Now we're kind of getting like one to two stocks a day but they're trappy stocks, they're kind of sketchy stocks. So I mean, I think we could all agree that the edge has definitely shifted and a lot of people have been washed out of the market and the ones that are still here are the ones that are trying to be here long term. But just like everything else from there's going to be a catalyst that comes in right now it's AI that's going to bring euphoria, new money, excitement into the market. And that's what we're seeing to create the biggest mega cap stocks are always at all-time highs for all-time highs because it's AI. AI is bringing that hype. So in my opinion, there's going to be a lot of new age AI money entering the market looking for these next AI, small cap, whatever it may be. And we just got to be here to capitalize it on it on the long and the short side because something for me is my biggest regret during the 2020, 2021 is not going long because the easy money was made on the long are not going bigger on the backside. So something I've been focusing on personally this year is trying to go long for these day one stocks and trying to size up a little bit larger on these day two stocks because I learned a lot of lessons during those two years of 2020, 2021. And those lessons are going to be poured into that next cycle bubble that happens, which I think we're kind of starting right now. I think it's a lot of human behavior too. So during the pandemic, everyone was super hyped and it was a lot of optimism where it felt like a high. And we also reached a point the past six months where there's a lot of pessimism in the market. So like that's where I think the market's like a seesaw too, and it's seasonal. Where like I didn't really, the past, I think from like June 2nd. So from like September to like February, I didn't trade that much. I was very, very open with my room. I'm like, because there appears where I think you should wait it out or just drop your size dramatically. And then for all we know, we get an internet bubble type move the next year because the Fed starts to pull back on rates and the market rips back. And so if you wasted your mental capital during the past, like during that time, you're not prepared for the new action. So that's where like, you know, a little bit with Alex was saying, right? There are times where you learn. And then once you take those lessons, you can apply them because the market, their opportunities are always there. Once the stock market goes away, then we have more to worry about, but I don't really think the market's gonna go in. Yeah. Anything that, if the pandemic taught me anything, it's that the only business that survived a global virus was the stock market. It's not going anywhere. Stock market is a credit card for the entire world. The US stock market is definitely the world's credit card. So it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Yeah. Big money has way too much interest in it. There's no way they'll ever stop it because it's what keeps people rich. It literally keeps the biggest CEOs. It keeps companies able to raise money. So once this, if it's not gonna happen, but if there were ever a day where the stock market was shut down for even a month or two months, chaos, chaos would happen, okay? Yeah, we don't worry about it. Don't be like, ha, I got a regular job. The whole world is about to end. The whole world is about to end. The whole world is about to end. It's just great. Ask you, Mike. I know you started Trade Club in Florida, so I was gonna ask you how you met Austin. You can tell us a little bit about Trade Club and I know that you also are starting a shooting range. I want to know a little bit more about that too. Yeah, so this is where I try and like, to be a little bit of like a role model of like balance, right? I think everyone should take any success they have. They're in trading and try and branch it out into areas outside of trading just to give you some balance. So that office, Trade Club, a partner, Austin and I, I met him when I moved down here. He's the homie. He was super nice because I moved down here. I didn't know anyone. So I started hanging out with him. He's just younger than me. I think he's like 22 to 23. So like almost 10 years younger than me. And he was trading futures and crypto and he had a mini office that I would go to. I'm like, this is dope. Like, cause it's getting out of your house and not feeling like a hard involved time, right? So we started that office and it's basically like a co-working office for traders. I based, so it was three or four months of building it out. It's in Naples, Florida for anyone that's interested. I go there now and then it's his business now because I started working on that shooting range. It's called Train Club, which I'm super pumped about. It's basically just a luxury golf course meets a shooting range. There's Florida's big on obviously, right? Your rights and shooting and there's not enough luxury places down here to shoot. So it's over on West Palm and 200 members. It's imagined like a 10 acre property with luxury amenities, chef, coal plunge, sauna, three shooting bays, workout area, little bar area out in like the sticks of Florida. And it's just a place where we're gonna train people. Some of the guy involves Rob Wneel, those of you that know he's the guy that pops bin Laden. So he's like American, you know, in the finish, he's the man. So we're gonna have a lot of these special operators that they should be the ones training the cops in my opinion and they're not. So they could be training the civilians and that's the goal of the model. So we're gonna have classes, our boy, Jeff Gumb, he's Navy SEAL. He like wrote the book on hand to hand combat. So we're gonna have classes there for that. I think it's important because I think trading, you're trying to make money, right? Financial literacy and then you have to learn how to make sure no one takes your money in the current. So we have families that are joining. So it's a really cool environment. And it's a skill set that I think is very valuable because if you've got a family, you definitely need to have some, you better know how to protect yourself from the current world, right? It wasn't fun, dude, I watched it. It's literally therapy. It's therapy. What am I doing in Boston? I don't know what I'm doing. I'm down here for a weekend, James, and we'll hang out and I'll show you around. Yeah, I love it, it sounds so cool. And I love that you have something that you're so passionate about outside of trading. I think it's so cool. We've talked about this Alice, right? It gets mundane. You can make a ton of money, but it definitely gets mundane. So I think having stuff outside of trading makes you love trading more, you know? Because you're not doing it all the time. If you've been trading your whole life, it actually makes you really depressed, man. Yeah, you'll be like in a straight jacket, you know? It's tough, man. It's tough. A lot of people don't understand that aspect. So I'm glad that you're kind of coming on here and reminding people. Because even me, bro, I have really solid base trading and I'm just like, it's actually lately, what it's been is those big days have actually made me the most upset. Because I'm just like, what the fuck is the point to it? All right, I made a decent amount of money. Like I'm not happy. Like why am I not happy? Is it because of X? Is it because of Y? Is it because like, if I don't have max size at the top and the bottom, am I not happy even if I have max size at the top and bottom? I want more buying power, I want more and more and more. So kind of finding a little bit of love outside of the market will actually help you stay grounded within the market. Definitely. And expectations have to be managed, right? So like, I think no matter what, we're always, I always say, always mad because we always, no matter what we do, you're like, I could have done this better. So you're always mad. So like that needs to be addressed because it's unhealthy. So long term standpoint, you'll drive yourself absolutely bonkers, right? So I think managing your expectations where like if you have a daily goal for that trade which you should have in mind and if you get that or exceed that a little bit you make it like a conscious effort where like I'm gonna be happy, you know? Cause then you could go out, you could make like a hundred K in a day. If you see something like 102,000 you're fucking a whole day. That's, tell me I'm wrong Alex. It's so stupid but it's the truth, man. It's the truth. So you compare yourself to people that are already doing super well. I think that's a big thing too. Or you compare yourself to, let's say I've been doing it nine years I've been doing it 15 years, 18 years and you're like, wait a second. It's the same thing as a guy who's been doing it six months comparing himself to the guy who's been doing it six years. So it's really what they say is everyone's on their own journey, focus on yourself. If that's the most important thing it's really hard with social media. So I feel like if people are struggling with comparing themselves, just get off social media just focus on the way. And that's the best way to do it because social media is really toxic bro. It's not a positive place. People are always braggling. People are fake. You don't even know what to do. Here's how I look at it. This is like I tell my fiance this like there's two types of people that use social media because they have a business and the people that just post and they don't make any money off it they're just trying to post, right? So you should use it like a tool. So for us, like if you're gonna use Twitter you know, you wanna use it as a tool where Twitter's probably the best news dissemination platform out there, right? So like you kind of have to be on it nowadays, right? Yeah. Especially since the homie Elon took it over. So you have to be on there but use it as a tool. So like curate your feed so that anything you see is only gonna be stuff that's like positive to your trading, right? And if like following other traders and seeing their stuff makes you upset that like make sure you don't see that while you're trading or like at all, right? Same thing with Instagram, you know? So that's where I think your mental diet is the information you take in. That's something else that people have to also look at, right? The point. Same thing with me. If you look at the wrong shit I think they say that if you look at your phone between 11 at night and like three in the morning it's guaranteed to make you depressed. So like don't look at your phone between then. It's certain things. I know a lot of lately Wendy's ads so it gets me really hungry too at night. Yeah, right. It's hard. You know that's the time that everyone's like they're gonna smoke in their phone. They're hungry. That's it. That's funny. Mike, I think I ran the last question actually but what is it like having a brother that can cook up a food? Oh my God, my brother. This is gonna be my question too, Jake. It's a TV show, wasn't it? He is unreal because he didn't start cooking. Like he went to culinary school, worked in some of the best restaurants in the city. But within like five, six years I think he's been cooking and he, 1200 people applied to that show and they picked like 15 and he was one of them. And he was just right place, right time. The fact, I still see it. I'm like, you fucking cook that and you don't tell me? Are you kidding? He's still my little brother. I love him to death. He's probably, I think, top chef in the world after that show. I didn't know for the record anything. He signed an NDA, you couldn't tell shit. So I was just as surprised as everyone, yeah. Has he ever like made you something like ridiculous? Like are you ever like, holy shit? But I was in New York and I remember going home and my parents asked because I would trade and they had a hot tub. So I drive home to go in their hot tub just to like rip a J. I came home one day and was like, I'm going to cook you lunch. I'm like, fuck yeah. And then I came up to the kitchen and there was like a luxury meal there and he already left. And I'm like, who the fuck made this? That's what I'm saying. Chris is special, but he's going to be involved with the range cooking there. And in all fairness to him that this adds any value. Like he saw me move down to Florida. I did it alone. He was like miserable in New York and then he followed me exactly a year later. And he's like never been happier since. And I think the success you see on the show too that says a lot, you know, you felt positive to take the risk. He's in a great environment. I think a lot of luck is preparation meets opportunity, right place, right time. Right, so. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I actually wanted to ask you one more thing like is how has your girlfriend in terms of supporting your trading journey? Because I find that like I've never really, like I never really been transparent about like my trading struggles until like I met my girl because I needed that type of support. And now she understands what a good day is like. She understands what a bad day is like. You understand how to support me. So how is your girlfriend in terms of like your bad days to support you? Do you think that like, not to say people should be forcing a relationship, but do you think that having a partner kind of helps that psychological stress aspect of your trading? Yeah, I mean, listen, all men need love, right? Otherwise, if we were just men on this earth, be a bunch of barbarians, you know, like Jon Firen. I think it's, it goes back to having stuff outside of trading, right? So you should have some values and, you know, having a significant other to balance it all is definitely important. It's also no fairness to them because I'm sure there's a stereotype like you dated a trader, right? So, you know, we're, this is stressful as career. So my goal, like earlier on, she could see when I had a good day and then she could really see when I had a bad day. And to the point where like some of my bad days were like, you know, pop and Xanax or whatever you can to manage the stress, at least earlier on in the career, you know, because the stress was so bad. So like, I think anyone that you should have a girl and your goal should be to, I want to get to a point where she can't tell if I've had a green day or a red day and that's better for you. Because then you can manage that. You're managing it better, right? And so it helped me work on that. And because without her, I probably, you know, you'd have a green day, you go as a man, you go splurge on some shit and go get fucked up. Then you have a red day. You probably do the same thing. You know, this is cycles. So you definitely have a girl in there. It's important, I think it's some maturity, you know? Also, big on like, if you could have a trader as a role model that you should see what their life's like outside of trading, it says a lot, right? No, for sure. And one last thing before we wrap up, like, do you have any advice for a newer struggling trader that's trying to make it into industry? Such is the hardest question on the ball, right? I know. You know, in all fairness, I like spent a ton of money on education to figure it out. You know, I think people should take advice from everyone and then that's more of like the shoot aim fire approach instead of thinking that like, I'm gonna find this one dude and he's gonna solve it all. So I think like everyone should be open to like getting a little bit from everyone to form your own basis because that's kind of the route that made me success, you know, instead of just being very narrow minded in your approach, you know? And paper trading works so that you learn how to buy and sell, but you should really like paper trade and then get right into trading even if you're trying to make five bucks. I think that that paper trading is only works so far. You know. Any questions for us? Just come down to Florida so we can chill and we'll do another one of these, but a little bit more. What you doing to any person right? Right at R. Oh my God. Oh my God. You'd be fine. Oh yeah. Thank you. We should have a deal by train club, bro. We should have a deal by train club. I told you that. I told you that all around, bro. I knew everyone would be strapped there. I dare the fuck out of there. We could do a little vlog. That would be dope. Yeah, for sure, bro. For sure. How do people find it, Mike? So just go to trainclub.com. We're not marketing too much because it's just a super small niche. So you basically go on the website, you apply, then we send you a code. It's like a small application and then we set up a phone call. We'll be, we have a soft opening in July and we expect to be like fully operational by like October. Cool. Awesome. That is sick, dude. I just want to say before we wrap up that you are a very awesome dude. I think it's cool when you meet someone that is the same way they are on social media and in person. Like you just see each other and I'm very proud. Really appreciate you coming on, man. You guys are all the homies. You guys are all the homies. To be transparent, you guys are one of the only other groups that I trust, so you guys are a great team. I appreciate what you guys are doing as well. You're just as motivating to me as I hope to be to you guys. Oh yeah, bro. Oh, cool. Thank you again. Yeah, homies. Thank you. That's it, bro. Thank you, man. That was awesome. Good stuff, guys. It was fast. I had a great time, man. And I think a lot of people will get a lot of value from that just because I do to honestly, like it really is a mental aspect of trading. I don't know if you understand that. You don't understand how detailed that is. So I think that this is really going to help kind of just get people on the right track. A little bit different, you know? There's definitely a lot of like vanilla in this lately. You just hear so much bullshit anyways online. It's the same stuff, dude, over and over. So it's nice to change it. I think this is definitely cool. When you're ready to change the weather, you, Harry and James, you all need to make something. Well, the range is up. You come down for like a weekend, whether I let it to Miami or... Yeah, we should definitely have a meetup, bro. We should definitely get together because like, dude, I love shooting, man. I really love shooting and I love hanging out. It's fun and it's so relaxing out there. We'll have like ATVs and some shit that we can whip. We'll go full Florida, man, all of us. I want to feel American when I'm down there, so. There we go. Well, thank you again. Appreciate it, bro. Appreciate it, guys. Enjoy the weekend. All right, see ya. Bye.