 I want to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land from which I'm speaking, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, and paying my respect to their elders, past, present and emerging. My name is Ben Bland and I'm a research fellow at the Institute here in Sydney. Thank you for joining us today for this important discussion about the darkening clouds over Hong Kong. Last month, Beijing announced that it would unilaterally implement national security legislation in Hong Kong. This move deals a heavy blow to the city's freedoms and its autonomy, and it comes after years of intensifying pressure and the unprecedented protests of 2019. With thousands of democracy activists already arrested in the last year and Beijing's interventions becoming ever more intrusive, is this the end of Hong Kong as we know it? To discuss this question, we're joined from Hong Kong by three insightful panellists who've been at the heart of the action in their own different ways. Firstly, we have Dennis Kwok. Dennis is a practicing barrister and a pro-democracy member of Hong Kong's legislative council. Dennis has actually been targeted by Chinese officials for disqualification, but for now he's still in Lechco and fighting on for democracy. Secondly, we have Bonnie Lern. Bonnie is a democracy activist and a member of the Civil Human Rights Front, and Bonnie played a key role in organizing the massive peaceful protests last year against the controversial extradition bill in Hong Kong. Last, but by no means least, we have Su Lin Wong. Su Lin has been covering events on the ground in Hong Kong for the Financial Times, as well as reporting extensively across southern China, and Su Lin will be joining the economist next month, so we catch her genuinely between jobs, but in a good way. Before we get going, some housekeeping. You can submit questions via the Q&A button. We'll gather them and respond to as many as we can later in the event, and please do include your name and any affiliation when you send through your questions. First up, I want to go to you, Dennis, and ask you a bit about this new national security legislation. How many other countries around the world have similar laws as the Chinese government has repeatedly pointed out? So why is this proposal so concerning for Hong Kong? Well, first of all, thank you for organizing this event. It's an honor to be here. The constitutional structure of the Hong Kong SAR under one country, two system, is that we are supposed to make our own laws, and especially with national security law under Article 23 of the Basic Law, we are supposed to legislate on our own with regards to laws like subversion, secession. So the fact that they are now making this law in Beijing with almost zero input from the Hong Kong people by passing all our institutions and the legislative council, and we're basically... I have to read about what is going to be in this law from the newspaper. No one knows for sure, even if you ask the government or the NPC delegates from Hong Kong, they have no idea what's exactly going to be in this law. And they threaten to impose this law on Hong Kong by the end of this month. So this is number one concern, I think in my view, this would be the end of one country, two systems. If they can enact laws like that, they wouldn't stop at national security. It would be national education next month, and then something else the other. So I think the implications as we've seen from the international community is that everyone with the right mind see this as the end of one country, two systems, if they are going to do it this way. And you know, I don't have to tell you how they have interpreted national security in the mainland. It could include anything from education, saying the wrong things, financial risk to other issues that could broadly come within national security. It could include lawyers who are defending human rights activists, who's been accused of subverting national security. So the concept is very wide. We don't know what they're going to put in the law. And they're bypassing completely the Hong Kong institutions. And we know that Hong Kong has had an obligation under the basic law, which is the city's mini-constitution to bring in some sort of national security legislation ever since the handover from British control in 1997. But, Sulina, I want to ask you, after so many years, why do you think that Beijing, the Chinese government, is pushing this national security law now? What's happened recently? Is this because the world's attention is on other problems? Is this a response to last year's protests? What's motivating Beijing? So I was at a press conference held by China's Foreign Ministry in Hong Kong last week. And this question was asked, and the official answer was that China's annual parliamentary meeting just happened. And so this was the first opportunity to pass such a decision to enact this kind of law. But unofficially, I've been speaking to mainlanders in the mainland who work on Hong Kong. And they all say that now is the moment, the time couldn't possibly be more right. And that's for a number of reasons, namely that the world is distracted with coronavirus. So there's a sense amongst the CCP and in Beijing that there'll be less scrutiny about what is going on right now regarding China's passing of national security legislation for Hong Kong. And then secondly, what I'm hearing from mainland officials is that the US-China relationship is going from bad to worse. And so now might as well, they might as well try and pass laws that are going to make the West unhappy because there isn't that much to lose regarding just how bad tensions are between the US and China. And Sylin, do you think there's also an extent to which Beijing genuinely believed that last year's protests were a threat to national security, that this was really subversion and there was a risk of separatism, et cetera, and the only way from its perspective to secure the nation and unity of China was by bringing in this sort of swinging crackdown on Hong Kong? Yes. So one of the most extraordinary things about covering the Hong Kong protests has been just how differently Hong Kong as I speak to view the protests versus the probation camp and mainland officials. So I think that for most Hong Kongers I speak to, this is very much a pro-democracy movement and it's about Hong Kongers wanting the right to elect their own leaders in Hong Kong. But for mainland officials and from the official Beijing narrative, this has been very much framed as an independence movement and about foreign interference and the CIA and MI6 meddling in the so-called internal affairs of China. And so I think because the framing is so different, it has caused a lot of problems. And in some ways it's very extraordinary that there is such a clash and in some ways that gets to the very, very heart of the problem. And I think that's why across the political spectrum, whether I'm speaking to frontline protesters or the probation camp in Hong Kong or mainland government officials, there's this sense of hopelessness, this deep, deep sense of hopelessness across the board. And going back to you, Dennis, on this point, I mean, in the end, is this just a clash of values, a clash of political systems that the Chinese Communist Party with its Marxist, Leninist view of the world could never really accept the sort of liberal democratic values that Hong Kongers embraced? Was it inevitable that this one country, two systems arrangement would fall apart? We all know from the beginning that one country, two systems is an inherent contradiction. And it will only work if there is a respect between the two systems. And it's to say that we know Hong Kong is different and we will respect that the values and the systems in Hong Kong are different from the mainland and vice versa. But once they tear down that respect of the difference and only emphasize on one country, you hear from mainland officials saying all the time in the past few years that one country is bigger than two systems. One country trumps two systems. Now if they insist on that mentality, they are not only deviating from the original idea that was founded by Deng Xiaoping, but that the two system, if there's no respect between the two differences between the two systems, then it's never going to work. And you see it now that they are basically saying, okay, enough is enough. Our patients have run out. They keep saying that you've crossed the red line or the bottom line of the central people's government. So that's why we're doing this and this. But they never thought to think about the bottom line of the Hong Kong people. We've waited for 23 years for democracy. They keep saying that we waited for 23 years for you to enact this national security law. But we've also waited for the central people's government to honor its promise to the Hong Kong people for universal suffrage, and that has never been honored. And now they say, even to the international community, that the Sino-British Joint Declaration is just a piece of paper. There's no obligation, no promise arising from it, and that the British government should just back off. This is how they see their obligation under the Sino-British Joint Declaration. And Bonnie, I want to come to you next. So I know that you were quite influential in your NGO too in organizing the huge protest last year against the extradition bill, which would have, for the first time, allowed people to be extradited from Hong Kong to mainland China. It seems to me that national security law is a much bigger threat to Hong Kong. And yet we haven't really seen the sort of huge mass protests that we saw last year against this national security legislation. Why haven't more Hong Kongers been on the streets protesting now? Actually, once the national security legislation was announced, there were several smaller protests organically organized by different organizations or individuals or netizens. And there were remarkable participants, hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands of people showed up in the streets despite the possible legal consequences or even physical danger because of police brutality. However, as you have said, yes, compared to last year where at most two million people took to the streets to protest against the extradition bill. Why in this year we haven't seen it yet? There are several reasons. One of the reasons is that because now we are in the middle of a pandemic and even though in Hong Kong now we contain the virus quite well and there are a few local infections and schools about to be reopened and also built as salon cinemas are already reopened. So the danger of pandemic is not very serious, but the government refused to relax the social distancing regulations that it was why whenever people applying for permission to have protest, the police would refuse it and they just refused the June 4th massacre ceremony that Hong Kong people had held for 30 years last yesterday. But people still persist to going out to do it anyway regardless of the regulations that the police try to impose on us. So it shows that the momentum of the movement is still there and Hong Kong people are still persisting in fighting for our freedom and fighting for our human rights and fighting against the evil law that is the national security law. If the protest are going to be illegal, I think it is quite a bit of challenge for people to with millions of people actually will be able to go out because the police can easily have the excuse to disperse the people with tear gas and they would start to arrest people at quite an early stage. So it is difficult, but people are continuing the movement the best ways we can. And as you said, Bonnie, yesterday there were thousands of people defying the government and the police to remember the victims of the massacre in Tiananmen Square 31 years ago when Chinese democracy activists were cracked down on in a very harsh manner. People were remembering that solemnly in Hong Kong with candlelight vigils across the city not one big vigil as normally has been in the past because of these COVID-19 restrictions. But do you think we'll ever see these big Tiananmen Square memorial vigils again or the national security law? Is that basically at that moment as past? I have to say once the legislation is announced, I believe all the demands of of the June 4th massacre ceremony scream trouble because the vigils demands are demanding democracy in China and of one party ruling and release political prisoners in China. So it all screams trouble if the law is enacted. So there is a danger, but at the same time I have confidence in Hong Kong people as we had already shown yesterday despite the regulations, Hong Kong people are still very brave. We go out to regardlessly and the organizer of the vigil as well said that they will continue not shy away from all the threats and decided to continue and persist on the demands that Hong Kong people had been holding for over 30 years. So I believe that if the surprise is going to be bigger in the future, it will certainly in some way alter Hong Kong people's behavior. But if we are no longer allowed to light our candles inside of Victoria Park just like yesterday, we would light our candles all across the territory in the streets and in the churches and wherever we can just protest. So it really will be a danger that we can no longer with hundreds of thousands of people gather in Victoria Park to memorize the victims, but there will be vigils nonetheless. And even before the national security law, we have already seen I think more than 8,000 mostly young people arrested in the last year for participating in the pro-democracy protests. Hong Kong police have even been arresting school children in their uniforms. In what sort of impact has this crackdown already had on people and Hong Kong society, Bonnie? Can you tell us you've spent time on the front lines? How are people feeling when they see their neighbors, your police officers, arresting school kids, they see thousands of young people, their lives potentially ruined by prison sentences or prosecutions? I think it's extremely sad for us to see school children being arrested, especially I believe it is quite obvious now how the police try to so-called enacting the law. They target young people and they target people, even politicians or sometimes restaurants, owners, businessmen who openly support the movement. And now we have something called the yellow economy for restaurants and shops who openly support the movement. And there are also the targets of police too. So it is extremely sad and it is very obvious to us now that whenever you go out to protest, however peaceful you are, there could be danger that you might be arrested. So what Hong Kong people are doing now is that we try our best to support all the people who have been arrested. We donate money to them and a lot of professionals like lawyers, Dennis, must know that they're trying their best to represent the people who are arrested and also prosecuted. And of course the influence on themselves and on their families would be very grieved because now we have seen reports and analysis that especially the young people are facing a lot of mental pressure and the numbers of depression and anxiety and post-traumatic problem are on the rise. So it is a real danger but Hong Kong people are trying our best to help. And what's impressive is that as far as I mentioned that especially the young people are under a lot of pressure, but when you go out to the streets whenever the protests happen, there are still a large number of Hong Kong people, especially young people are still persisting. So I think it is extremely remarkable. I want to explore this human side of the story a bit more because outside Hong Kong we see a lot of dramatic images last year of of protests and clashes. We now hear a lot about Beijing and China pushing its weight around, but we don't hear so much about the people and why they're really doing this. Su Lin, I know you've spent a lot of time with the frontliners last year who were clashing with the police, risking years in jail, serious injury, even death. I know that some young people went to the protests with their last will and testament in their pocket which is really quite poignant in terms of what they have at stake. But what's motivating these young people to risk so much in fighting for these abstract values of freedom and democracy? I mean we throw these words around all the time but these guys are willing to fight and die for those values. What's that really about? I think that's one of the reasons why the Hong Kong protests really have captured the world because there's this narrative that young people are really disengaged all over the world now from politics and yet what the 2019 Hong Kong protests showed is that there were thousands, tens of thousands of Hong Kongers and particularly young Hong Kongers who were not disengaged and who were not apathetic and who were willing to go out and as you say some were at great costs to fight for their freedoms and for democracy. I think for a lot of the frontliners and young people I spoke to last year they grew up under an education system that really encouraged them to think critically, to engage and to think about what kind of future they wanted and what kind of system they wanted to to live under and I think that as China has tightened its control of mainland China and also Hong Kong in recent years there's been this real sense of horror that the future of Hong Kong is going to if not become but at least really resemble the situation in mainland China where there is no freedom of protest, there's no freedom of assembly, there's no freedom of religion, there's no freedom of the press, there's no freedom of speech and these are all freedoms that Hong Kongers enjoy and so I think for a lot of the frontline protesters they really wanted to protect those freedoms and they felt like democracy was the way to do that. Unfortunately that avenue has been shut off to them and so they thought well taking to the streets is a way for us to express our discontent if we can't express our discontent at the ballot box but as the protest continued last year we saw the police and the government clamped down on these peaceful street protests that Bonnie and Dennis were involved with where one million people took to the streets or even two million people took to the streets and so in a way I think that radicalized some of the frontline protesters and so as I mentioned earlier this really is a pro-democracy movement but as the authorities clamped down what I noticed was that more and more young people and more and more people on the streets started calling for Hong Kong independence and so I think the protest really evolved last year in reaction to how the Hong Kong government and how Beijing were acting and so it's really become something if for some sectors of the protest movement it has become something quite different and yeah I'm not really sure I think there are some people who feel that Hong Kong is inevitably going to become just another mainland Chinese city because the two other options seem implausible those two other options being Hong Kong independence or Hong Kong outliving the Chinese Communist Party the way Eastern Europe outlived the Soviet Union but I think for a small group of more radical protesters in Hong Kong there is there has been a radicalization and there is a sense they want to continue escalating and so there's more and more talk of the risk of Hong Kong becoming the new Belfast or we're going to see the sort of replication of what we saw in Northern Ireland where we see small groups taking much more radical actions like for example trying to set off bombs so Dennis I want to take that point up with you I mean do you worry about the normalization of violence within the democracy movement because last year it struck me that you know early on a lot of the moderate Democrats your colleagues were criticizing the violence but then they sort of came to accept it and say well what do you expect when you you squeeze young people but it seems there has been a normalization of violence on all sides in a way and as Sulema suggesting it does seem like we might be heading into this dangerous spiral into more and more conflict so does that concern you um you know I think if you look at what happened in the past two weeks most protests and assembly are peaceful it is the police that is using the excessive force in arresting hundreds as you said even students in their uniforms are being pushed to a police car and arrested and I I think there is this sense of solidarity between the Hong Kong people amongst the Hong Kong people for those of us who call for peaceful protests like myself we understand that you know there are there are radical elements in the protest movements that would resort to violence from time to time and we try to tell them not to do that but we're not going to suffer our ties with them because just because they're doing something that we don't necessarily 100% approve of and there is this solidarity you see in the district council election last year even though that was the height of what you say that you know that there's a lot of obstruction violence happening and I think the pro-beijing camp was hoping to capitalize on that hoping that the Hong Kong people would be so sick and tired of all that that they would actually vote for the pro-beijing camp but it turned out not to be the case and we had a landslide victory and I think that tells you how the people of Hong Kong think about the whole situation is that yes they may not like or approve of the violence that some protesters have caused but they even disapprove even more the police brutality and the fact that there is no check and balance and there is no way in holding the police accountable for their actions on the streets I think that is a bigger concern for most Hong Kong people and I think when I was living in Hong Kong it struck me and I think a lot of outsiders have the same feeling that the more that Beijing was squeezing Hong Kong the more it was simply deepening and strengthening the resistance movement and this sense of a separate Hong Kong identity that Sulin was referring to but but Dennis I wonder what why can't Beijing see this why can't it see that it's cracked down just make its end goals further and further away why why I guess can't the Chinese government just leave Hong Kong is alone because Ben I'm afraid you're thinking like a westerner you are you are thinking like you know how we think like logically you know why would China do this to Hong Kong when it needs Hong Kong as a financial center or that Hong Kong really should should be left alone and thrive on its freedom and liberal values because I think for an authoritarian regime there's never going to be enough control there's never going to be enough power and we we we we see this increasingly assertive authoritarianism that is clouding over Hong Kong and the rest of the world is also feeling it why why are they making threats again against Australian beef and wine why are they adopting this woof warrior diplomacy if there's you know an absurd term more absurd than this I don't know a woof warrior diplomacy threatening this country threatening this this you know this country and and you know threatening Taiwan for reunification by non-peaceful means I think this you have to read all of this together and see China as it is today and I think it is really showing us true colors to to the world and used to be 10 years ago they still pay lip service to oh human rights you know we're getting their rule of law yes we get it but now they're not paying any lip service anymore they're saying this is who we are you don't like it then get out of our way or not we're going to threaten you with consequences and consequences and that's the same as happening to Hong Kong and in a in a sad way you're an example of that right Dennis because a few years ago I think Beijing would have seen you as a moderate pro-democracy politician you know perhaps they would have been reaching out to you but in the last few months they've sort of identified you as an enemy of this state accused you of abusing your power and all sorts of things and there's a campaign underway to disqualify even the legislative council so I guess you found yourself sort of on the front line of that shift in Beijing's perspective to see a much broader range of enemies as it were whereas before they were much more targeted yeah I fully expected myself to be disqualified when it comes to you know the next round of elections if there is going to be a next round of elections but they're just not just targeting me I mean mainstream moderate democrats like Martin Lee or Dr. Margaret N have been arrested for you know a North rise assembly and they're going after them not for you know usually you get a fine or something if you go for a North rise assembly but they're going after them for incitement or and they try to you know bring more serious charges against them so yes the whole strategy of Beijing has changed I don't care whether you're Martin Lee or Joshua Wong we're going to go after you the whole lot you're you're basically branded as the same thing and it's clear that Beijing has changed its tap but I think Hong Kongers have changed how they see China too I want to come to you next Bonnie because we know that after the handover in 1997 a lot of Hong Kongers actually embraced the return to the mainland we can see this in survey data the ups around 2008 there was a peak of Hong Kongers feeling proud to be part of China but why have Hong Kongers changed the way they they feel about the mainland from maybe welcoming it to return to indifference to now increasing resentment hatred anger well I think it is a very good question because I believe before or right after the handover Hong Kong people who stayed in Hong Kong believe and have confidence in the one country to system and when the one country to system only would work if Beijing would exercise the self-restraint leave our businesses to our businesses leave what is promised in the basic law to give Hong Kong government high degree of autonomy which basically means everything except for foreign affairs and security issues so for the first few years it works pretty well we have from time to time face some danger but it was pretty good so we still feel our freedom we still feel our human rights be protected but actually ever since 2003 when Hong Kong government tried as then it has said earlier that article 23 actually impose an obligation on a Hong Kong government to locally legislate for national security and from that bill drafted we already see that Beijing is trying to have a tighter grips on Hong Kong which would undermine our human rights and our freedom and from that stay on Hong Kong people started gradually to feel more and more danger more and more grabs from Beijing and from 2000 and year 2003 year on we see more influence from Beijing like our education we see that they try to impose brainwashing education something like what's happening in China to imposed on Hong Kong students or we see that they're trying to meddling with our with our media agencies so more and more danger we sense Hong Kong people are starting to feel less and less secure and more willing to come out to protest so what we've seen last year was not just about the extradition bill itself but years and years of built on pressure and built on danger that Hong Kong people sense that's led us to feel that we know we can accept it no more and we need to fight and so and you mentioned about 2008 at that point Hong Kong people still if we're not totally be proud of the Olympic Games at least we don't feel much hatred about it or young people would not refuse to go out for celebrations or something like that however now as Sulin said earlier the more suppressed we feel especially for the young people the more they are reluctant to accept that they are Chinese but more identify themselves as Hong Kong and more people would mention something like Hong Kong independence so it's really about more suppression the more we fight against and emotionally distance ourselves from China so if China care at all about Hong Kong people's feelings and care about at all Hong Kong people's especially the next generation's loyalty to the country they really should not touch our internal businesses as promised in a basic law but as they really do not care about Hong Kong people only they care about their grips of power and earn more power earn more control over the territory to use our system for their businesses or for their capital flow instead of really care about the people living in the city so that's why that explains their behavior well talking of their grip on power I want to explore about the impact of the crackdowns on Hong Kong's role as a global financial sensor in the last few days several leading Western companies including HSBC, Standard Charter, Jardines and Swire have all come out publicly in support of the national security legislation even though the details of the law haven't actually been released yet and it's not really clear if they're doing this because they think the national security law is the best thing since sliced bread or if they feel somehow pressured by the authorities to do it so Sulin you know used to work for the financial times you've covered the business sector in Hong Kong and China I mean do you think that business can just carry on as usual or in the end are Beijing's increasing encroachments going to undermine the very foundations of Hong Kong's success as a global financial centre which is probably the rule of law individual liberties maybe to a lesser extent So I think Beijing has always really admired the so-called Singapore model and has had aspirations for Hong Kong to become Singapore and a lot of Hong Kong political analysts I speak to say that Beijing's understanding of one country two systems is actually one country two economic system and it's not really about granting Hong Kong a high degree of autonomy and the civic freedoms that that we've been speaking about today and so I think that for a lot of businesses who have dealings in the mainland they are hoping they will be able to continue on as normal or you may be actually the proposed national security law might calm things down in Hong Kong because Beijing will then be able to clamp down on on the protests and things will return to a so-called normal but the question is can Hong Kong become Singapore or is Hong Kong the international city it is because of its civic freedoms and because of its high degree of autonomy and can business continue to flourish here without the freedoms that that we've seen Hong Kong enjoy previously so I think what we're seeing right now with HSBC and standard charter and jardines and swire all coming forward to make statements in favour of the proposed legislation is really a manifestation of this age old conflict of principles versus profits and because China is now the largest consumer market globally I think for a lot of these businesses they they have they they've chosen profits and I actually think one other point on this is if there is a global significance of the Hong Kong protests last year it really was the extent to which the Chinese Communist Party now has influence over countries and businesses globally and the fact that for a lot of these businesses and countries they have to make a choice now and so we saw all kinds of businesses get caught up in the Hong Kong protests last year the NBA Apple Tiffany's video games companies and I think we're going to see more and more examples of that going forward yeah I think that's partly probably what's happening in Australia too this this sense that it's very hard to play both ends now and there's a pressure increasingly from from China but also from from other governments to to choose and I mean on that point I think we've got to look at what the Trump administration has been doing because they've said that with the the new national security legislation Hong Kong is no longer sufficiently autonomous to justify its special treatment under US law as a separate customs territory and of course there's a fool's error in predicting what President Trump's actually going to do about this or anything else for that matter but Dennis as a lawmaker and I know you've visited the US to lobby on these issues do you support the US government sanctioning China and Hong Kong or do you think in the end this sort of approach is just going to punish Hong Kong people even more and the communist party won't really care at the end of the day the Hong Kong policy act is an act of the US Congress granting special privilege to Hong Kong because it has one country two systems now we've I've been warning the Hong Kong government and the central people's government look the message two years ago when I started visiting the United States talking to different people there it is very clear that if they continue down this path of so-called one country systems policy if they continue to disqualify pro-democracy candidates evicting journalists delaying the pace of democracy and forcing the enactment of article 23 which is happening now they will lose the the special status under the Hong Kong policy act and that is just a natural consequence of their policy and it is happening now and happening fast so they really have no one else to blame but themselves for continuing down this path now maybe it is the case that Beijing don't care that you know they see Hong Kong they don't need the support or international recognition anymore for Hong Kong and if Hong Kong becomes just like Shanghai or Shenzhen then so be it they could take that hit and in fact the bankers and the corporate lawyers here think that the US-China decoupling process may actually benefit Hong Kong because a lot of the Chinese companies that are listed in the United States will have to come back to Hong Kong so actually they they from the people that I've been talking to they're not actually worry about Hong Kong losing his international financial center status because it will mean different types of capital and business will come into Hong Kong. Right well we're going to move to some of the questions from the audience now if you still want to get your question in please do so via the Q&A button. First question is from Dalian Hamilton who's an Australian public servant and he wants to know beyond words and public statements what practical measures can the international community including governments and NGOs do to support Hong Kong and Dennis do you want to start there what what can the rest of the world do beyond you know these many strongly worded statements? I think if the Australian parliament and government should actively think about how to help the young people in Hong Kong for those who wish to leave Hong Kong once a new life I think the Australian government should actively think about ways in which channels could be opened up for especially for young people but not exclusively for Hong Kong people to go to Australia to study and work so as to give them a new way of life now I appreciate there are many young people here who are refusing to leave but I'm talking about those who have been convicted those who are you know being chased by the authorities I think there should be a way out offered to them if they wish to leave and I really sincerely hope that the Australian government and the parliament could think about ways to help these young people and Bonnie what's your view I know you actually came over to Canberra last year to lobby parliament about Hong Kong's plight what do you want to see the Australian government doing is offering sort of asylum enough do you think there should be targeted sanctions which I know is something that the parliament is currently considering I totally agree with what Dennis had said and on top of that I thank two things first of all in a short term as we've discussed the national security law could possibly be enacted in late June and I think from now on to the actual enactment it is a very delicate period of time where we still haven't seen the draft of the bill we still don't know what is what is going to be like so I hope to think optimistically I do not want to be a defeatist yet I would like to think that if the world acts in solidarity if the pressure is enough if the if the CCP is going to believe that the world is not going to just issuing statements but would actually acknowledge that it is a unforgivable breach of the signal British joint declaration and would be willing to act accordingly then the CCP may have a second thought on how they will actually enact the law and it may turn out to be not as horrifying as we expect the law to be so I believe that in the field next few weeks is very important so for Australian population supporters or NGOs or companies I would urge you to talk to your politicians and join in a coalition in the world like the one that a lot pattern is is is leading there is a petition urging parliamentarians to sign that to acknowledge the breach of signal British joint declaration and subsequently urge politicians to act accordingly so I believe that is very important to solidarity if I can interrupt when you say act accordingly but not just more statements what does that mean do you want to see China sanctioned for this breach of the sign of British joint declaration that is one way and as Dennis said I believe open the doors for political refugees from Hong Kong with open arms would be one strong statement to be or one strong message to be sending to CCP and on the other hand because there are always a lot of trade deals between no matter is Australia between Australian and Hong Kong or Australia and China we may start making use of that adding human rights clauses into it that is one of the recommendations that I brought to Australian politicians and I really hope that they would consider it more seriously in the future and also like the UK is also discussing about their 5G network that's supposed to be built partially by Huawei and things like that all of it may be useful and and I think the principle is very simple is that if China can read something as solemn and as important as the sign of British joint declaration they can breach basically every trade deals or every promises that they make so it is not only about Hong Kong so the questions is really to Australians as well if China is going to breach promise and deals with you what you are going to do you must use all of your resources in hand you must reveal all of your foreign policies in order to give pressure to the other party to make sure that this is not acceptable and make sure that they will behave in the future and now this is the time to act because this is not only the problem of Hong Kong but it is a really values versus it's about stopping the CCP's bullying behavior so it is not about Hong Kong it's about Australia as well so use all of your tools uh urge your politicians to act as if it is a problem that is in in Australia and reveal all of your foreign policies and if you're working in the government reveal your policies and if you're working in the companies reveal your corporations policies as well to make sure that you first of all you support Hong Kong and at the same time you also make sure that the Chinese influence will not be on your territory and in your company in a way that if you depend on China's benefits then they'll have control over you and we must stop that not only from the government's level not only on the foreign policy level but on all the corporations level on all the media on education system as well okay well I think that brings us really nicely to our next question which is from Sam Davis a teacher at the Wadonga senior secondary college and I'll direct this to you Sulin if I may um so Sam Davis asks should companies operating in Hong Kong now treat the city in the same way they do mainland China in terms of intellectual property cyber political risks etc I think we still haven't seen the details of the national security legislation so it's hard to answer specifics regarding intellectual property law and cyber before that that having been said I think the the long-term trend is clear and Hong Kong is becoming more and more like a mainland Chinese city so I think for a lot of people operating here who do go back and forth between the mainland and might be targets of the CCP it's seriously worth considering applying the same rules that you apply in mainland China to Hong Kong in terms of for example your infosec and using for example more encrypted apps and VPNs things like that we've already seen a huge uptick in the number of VPNs being downloaded in Hong Kong just after the national security law was announced okay next question is from Dale Cohen and he's referring to the fact that Boris Johnson the UK Prime Minister has already offered for up to three million Hong Kongers to have some form of sanctuary in the UK potentially leading to citizenship of the pathway isn't fully clear there's been pressure on Australia as well to offer something similar so I might direct this to you Dennis how do you think China is going to react to democratic countries offering sanctuary to Hong Kongers and do you also feel that many Hong Kongers will want to take up these potential opportunities to leave their homeland forever you know I grew up in Hong Kong during the 80s and the 90s so I've seen the wave of emigration back then it was one in every three families everyone back then was was was was leaving I don't see the the same kind of sentiment now to be honest I a lot of people around me are thinking about having options you know having an exit plan but a lot of them don't want to leave because it is not easy to leave your hometown and a lot of people don't want to leave our hometown and they as Bonnie said they want to keep on with the struggle and you know to fight fight until the the last moment so that the feeling now is I feel it's not the same as back in the 90s in the 80s but a lot of people are as I said want to have an exit plan and the thing about the BNO is that um that's the British national overseas passport that potentially would allow people to go to the UK um a lot of young people are not qualified because if you're born here after 90s 97 so you're 23 years or younger then you you might not get that option so I urged the Australian government as I said to offer these young people a way out if they so choose to leave Hong Kong and I think you ask what is China going to do to Western democracies who offer an exit plan oh they will threaten you they will bar Australian beef and wine from going to China so but I think the world you know I think a lot of people have come to realize this is the consequence of having a assertive global power which is an authoritarian regime I think EU, Canada, Australia and the United States and other countries like Japan are now having to face the consequence of China as it is today and you have to choose between fighting for your values values of democracy freedom and rule of law and there are those people who don't believe in those values and you need to make a choice I think as a people as country you need to make a choice and the next question is a bit of crystal ballgazing I might throw this back to you first Dennis too um how do you envisage this is from Gordon Arthur how do you envisage Hong Kong could look like in five years from now will there be Chinese public security personnel on the streets protest banned extradition of dissenters to China patriotic education at schools a restricted internet and reporters detained not a very happy picture but is it a likely scenario for five years on I don't think you have to wait five years I think it could be next year when what what you described could be reality we know the national security agents are already in Hong Kong they are not operating openly but they're here we all know that it's open secret and will they start arresting people and bringing them across the China I don't know I wouldn't want to make that kind of prediction because a lot of people would have to leave Hong Kong you know there's this talk about whether there will be retrospectivity or retroactive consequences with this national security law we don't know because if there is going to be retrospective effect of criminal sanctions which is of course in reach of all the basic human rights that we have in Hong Kong but if there is going to be retrospective effect millions of Hong Kong people would be living in fear and may have to leave because millions have joined protests have joined peaceful assemblies or have said things on Facebook that could be used against them so it would really drive fear through the whole community and there may be mass exodus I don't know the next question is also for you Dennis sorry to keep keep hogging your time but it's from Paul Lynch at Prudential what are you going to be looking out for in the details of the national security legislation when the draft law is published and what would be an acceptable national security law for the pro-democracy camp now I think a lot of people are looking at whether there will be still the basic human rights protection that we've enjoyed in Hong Kong in this national security law are they going to be trying people in Hong Kong courts in accordance with our legal system with our basic human rights guaranteed or are they going to be the worst case scenario is that they would allow national security agents to arrest people in Hong Kong and then bring them across to China to face a criminal trial there that would be the worst case scenario or is it going to be Hong Kong courts trying these cases do Hong Kong courts have jurisdictions over the national security law offenses and also that very important question of retrospectivity under the Hong Kong Constitution and our Bill of Rights there cannot be retrospective criminal offenses and that is an absolute you know rule with very very few exceptions or none at all so I think we will be looking out at those elements and also whether our freedom of expression or freedom of conscience will be affected does it mean that if I say freedom of express you know free Hong Kong or whatever Hong Kong independence I will be arrested just by mere expression and also one last very important element is they keep saying that they want to outlaw foreign interference in Hong Kong now that's a very strange concept for those of us who are trained in the common law what is foreign interference and how do you going to outlaw it of course they don't like the United States Congress passing legislation like the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act they see see that foreign interference but it'll be very interesting to see what is it that they're going to do to outlaw foreign interference now in Hong Kong in our parliament in in the legislative council we receive MPs members of Congress foreign officials all the time the pro-establishment is there and the Democrats are there and we have meetings we talk about Hong Kong we talk about the world we talk about world affairs all the time now obviously they see that as foreign interference but Hong Kong is an international city we talk to people all the time I talk to council generals I talk to foreign businesses foreign journalists and you know conversations like this kind with lower institute is this foreign interference is this kind of conversation going to be illegal going forward Hong Kong will cease the function I tell you if they try to outlaw you know conversations of this kind and interaction between us and foreign officials foreign MPs I think those are the things that the international community should really look out for because if they want to outlaw this kind of interaction then the you know then the light will be switched off on Hong Kong and you know there will be effectively a firewall between us and the rest of the world and the international community will completely lose Hong Kong we're almost out of time unfortunately I'm going to squeeze in one more question which is from Chris champion who's a publisher he wants to ask about the Hong Kong police and I might direct this to you ceiling because I think you've done some reporting on this but what's been the impact of the protests and the change in public sentiment over the last year on the police which has really gone from being liked and respected in Chris's words to being reviled has that had an impact on on the police and what does that mean for for Hong Kong going forward when there's such distrust between the police and the public yeah that's great a great question I think one of the lasting tragic effects of the 2019 Hong Kong protests has been this breakdown in trust between protesters and Hong Kong's institutions so previously there were very high levels of trust towards a lot of Hong Kong institutions from Hong Kong people for example police force which is known used to be known as Asia's finest all the way to say the subway corporation the MTR that have all been seen now to be acting at the behest of of the Hong Kong government and Beijing I think what what is really sad is that in a liberal democracy the police are accountable to the government but the government are ultimately accountable to the people who can vote in and out their government who can request who can ask for policy changes who can ask for changes in the head of the police force for example but we don't have that there is that there isn't that system in Hong Kong because it isn't a democracy and the people of Hong Kong don't get to elect their government in the way that we understand it in the West and so I think there was a lot of anger at the police force last year from the protesters because of how they were acting and there was also this sense that there was no way for the the people of Hong Kong to hold the police to account and so we saw I think it was there was a public opinion poll that saw levels of trust in the police force plummet to zero for 51% of people polled as the protests escalated later last late last year so I think it's it's I don't really see how trust is going to be rebuilt not only with the police force but but also with Hong Kong institutions more broadly and on top of that now that there is this impending national security legislation where it's very possible that China's secret police Ministry of State security is going to be able to operate openly and legally in Hong Kong that that trust in in both the Hong Kong police and China's secret police is is is going to plummet even further well thanks Sulin Bonnie and Dennis for taking the time today to discuss this really important topic it's been informative but certainly unsettling and that reflects the realities I think that people are facing in in Hong Kong now but thanks once again for your time please check our website for details of future events and in the meantime from all of us at the Lowe Institute thank you for joining us today and please stay well