 Welcome to the show guy. We're so excited to get vulnerable with you and learn a little bit more about your podcasting journey. Johnny and I are huge fans of the show, How I Built This, and we really enjoyed the book, How I Built This as well. Thanks guys. It's great to be here. And I hope we don't get too vulnerable because I am in a really vulnerable place between the fires and the pandemic and environmental degradation, political unrest. You mean you're in California. Yeah. 2020. Yes. Exactly. Now, you've been a radio journalist and even a wartime correspondent for a long time. And now you're one of the most recognized and successful podcasters in the world. What set you on the path to becoming a podcaster? It's funny. I would say it's only in the last two or three years when that description didn't momentarily jar me. I always thought of myself as a radio person because I started out in radio. And because of the podcasting boom, what I've always been doing is the definition has changed. But the actual thing that I do hasn't really changed. So it's only in the last couple of years where I've actually thought, yeah, I've really kind of embraced this. I remember talking with Casey Neistat about him being described as a YouTuber rather than a filmmaker. And at first, people sort of use that phrase in a kind of a pejorative way. Like, oh, he's just a YouTuber. But that's how he describes himself now because it's actually some of the best filmmakers are YouTubers. And so for me, it really began in radio. I started out as a radio reporter. I started out from the start at the bottom. And I worked as a radio reporter most of my early career and eventually became a radio anchor, news anchor on NPR of a news program. And really, about eight years ago, I just kind of lost my, I lost my faith. And not my faith. I just, I had a kind of a moment of disillusionment with the news. I really felt like, you know, I needed to make a better contribution to the world in a small way. And I didn't feel like I was doing that in news. I felt like, even though we were covering important things, and I'm really proud of the work I was able to do, and I got to cover stories around the world and cover four wars and live in countries and meet incredible people, I felt like people were even more polarized, you know, at that time than when I started. And so I kind of, my journey into kind of podcasting was really leaving the new side of what I did and starting to create programs that dealt with human behavior and human experiences that were more universal, that weren't about like up to the minute, you know, this is happening now, this is happening now, that's happening tomorrow. And it began with Ted Radio Hour, a show that I helped launch in 2013. And really, the idea behind that show was, can we make a show where every single episode can be heard now or in five years or in 10 years, and it will still be relevant? Can these be evergreen programs that are designed to stand the test of time? And that was the beginning, and that's sort of, has taken me to where I am today, proudly a podcaster. You know, I want to... You're glad to hear that. Yeah, I just wanted to say that I feel that all of us in the podcasting industry at this moment have a sense of either we can add to the turmoil and the insanity that's seemingly being around us, or we can use our platforms to bring everybody together and put out messages of education and being able to help people see the world for what it is around them, because I think a lot of people are finding the news to be agenda driven and in divisive at this time. I agree with you. I mean, I think that, you know, the way people, especially younger people, are consuming information on their own terms through podcasting gives us a huge opportunity to create content that, you know, that does elevate the conversation, that does get people thinking about big ideas, that does get people thinking more deeply about themselves and about the people around them. And I hope that stays. I mean, of course, it's a commercial environment, so there will always be opportunities for people who don't want to do that, you know, who don't want to, and as long as there's an audience for those people, you know, for better or worse, the marketplace will determine, you know, who succeeds and who doesn't. But I agree with you. I think that we have an opportunity and a responsibility to do that because we have time. We don't have to end on the hour. You know, we can keep these conversations going. So I agree and I applaud that. And what drew you to successful entrepreneurs as a way to have those timeless conversations? You know, it's funny. I just got off a call with the founders of Wayfair. They were on my show on how I built this three years ago, Nird Shah and Steve Konine, and they had zero passion about furniture. They couldn't care less about furniture when they started out. Now they do. They have a tremendous interest in furniture, but they really they didn't care about it. They didn't know much about it. They were really interested in solving a problem and a challenge. And that was how, you know, why does somebody living in New York or LA have access to really great furniture, but someone living in, you know, Omaha or Des Moines doesn't. They don't have easy access to great furniture and they wanted to make this something that anybody could access. In my case, I first really encountered entrepreneur stories in 2008 when I was on a sabbatical year. I got a journalism fellowship that year and I spent the year at Harvard. They offered this really fancy fellowship to journalists and you can take classes all over the place, wherever you want, and they pay for everything. It's unbelievable. And I took a class at Harvard Business School and I was expecting charts and graphs and formulas and algorithms. I was blown away when we got our first assignment, which was my first assignment when we got our first assignment, which was to read a case study, which was essentially a story. And it was a story of an entrepreneur and a crisis they faced and you had to wait to the next class to find out what happened. And I was just blown away. I thought, this is how they teach business school. This is amazing. These are incredible human journeys. These are like any story, any journey you've ever encountered, you know, the Odyssey or Gilgamesh or any of these heroes that you see in classic literature that Joseph Campbell wrote about in the 70s, Star Wars, Harry Potter. It's like there's this person with a crazy idea and she tells people in the village and they all tell her she's crazy. So she has to leave the village or the exiler from the village and she goes on this journey. She slays a dragon. She almost dies in an abyss. She finds a mentor. All of those elements are in the stories of founders and founders of these incredible companies and brands. And once I connected the dots, it was clear to me that I wanted to make a show like this. It just took me a while to actually launch it, but it was always in the back of my mind because there's so much at stake when you're starting a business. There's the possibility for failure and for collapse and for financial ruin and for embarrassment and shame. I mean, they're all of these things that we as humans naturally want to avoid, like our saber-toothed tiger in the Savannah instinct says, get out of here. And so I really wanted to explore what motivates people to do that and how and can we learn how to do that. And so that was the genesis of the show. And I think it sort of defines what it is today. And I think that speaks to the success of the show in that that hero's journey is relatable whether or not you are trying to start a business. And I know so many non-entrepreneurs who love the show and love digging into these personal moments that you have with these incredible founders. It's so nice to hear that. I mean, honestly, I hope it doesn't sound like falsely modest. I'm just, I work in this studio that you're looking at me right now. I mean, this is where I work from. And I spend, especially in COVID, I don't have any interaction with anyone except my family, my wife and my kids. And hearing from people who love the show means so much. It really does. And sometimes I have to stop and kind of take stock of it. Because, you know, I think like a lot of people, I tend to get a little obsessed with the occasional negative comments or some of the mean things that people will write now. And again, it really does. I'm getting better at it, but I want people to love it. I want people to feel empowered by it. So it really does mean a lot. I think the reason why the show resonates with people who may not be interested in starting their own business necessarily is because it's not a roadmap for how to start a business. I mean, it can be and it certainly is very useful. And if you don't have an MBA, it's a great free alternative. But it's also a way to think, it's also a show that hopefully kind of teaches you how to think creatively and how to solve problems. And so for people who work for big companies or who are working in marketing or who are working in sales or who are just like going for a run and need like an extra boost of like, oh my God, this person's doing this crazy thing. That's really what I want the show to be. I want it to be this inspiring show that also reminds people that some of these huge brands and the people behind them, they're not superheroes. They're just like you. They are just like you. And they have gone through some really challenging times and moments. And one of the ways that they are giving back is by really going deep and showing their vulnerability and taking us along that journey. And I want people to share that journey because I want people to understand that you are no different. And I'm only telling their story because they took the leap and you can too. You can too. It really is a show about vulnerability. And what I love about the conversations is you get founders that we normally see, you know, keynote speaking on stage or even in traditional media interviews. And they're very buttoned up. They're very PR driven. They understand anything they say is going to impact share value, etc. And yet you're able to create these really deep moments of connection and vulnerability and hear a side of the story that we don't often hear in building the business. How do you get your guests to feel safe enough to open up when many of their traditional interviews go a complete opposite direction? I mean, part of it, AJ, to be honest, is to do something really counterintuitive. You know, the way PR and communications specialists deal with the media is really needs to be disrupted. And it's ripe for disruption. And anybody listening to this who wants to get into that industry, there are lots of opportunities to disrupt it. Because the traditional approach is you go to a media outlet or a show and you say, my client is available to talk about this, this, this and that. These are all the 10 amazing things about them. And like Forbes 30 under 30 and, you know, Nobel Prize winner at 17 and whatever, you know, all these accolades. And they're pitching by and large in an old school way to like the morning network news shows that we're going to give them four minutes or three minutes. It's very different now, especially with podcasts. And I am not looking to have somebody come on for an hour and just talk about all their successes. Not because I'm not proud of them and I want to cheer them on. It's just boring. Who wants to hear about somebody's success for an hour? It's not that interesting. What you want to do is you want to hear from somebody who has achieved success, but you want to hear about the failures that they experienced along the way, because that's when you actually learn. And what I do is it's a combination of things. I explain that to people before they come on the show. And I always say, look, we don't want to force you to come on the show. We don't want to beg anybody to come on the show. We want you to come on the show with a sense of generosity. And we want you to come on the show knowing that what you're doing is a public service. We don't charge for the show. It's a public radio program. It's your opportunity to really go deep into your life. We will do a lot of research to make sure that it is accurate. And it's as simple as that. And what happens inevitably is that the people who come on the show, they have agreed to that. We do get pitched. And I was just pitched an incredibly big major founder. And I wrote back to the person's communications specialist, and I said, I would love to interview this person. I am absolutely fascinated by this person's story. But I want you to understand that my one condition for this person appearing on the show is there are no conditions. And if you're okay with that, and if your person is okay with that, let's do it. But if not, that's okay. Let's part as friends. And that's basically what we do. So getting that buy-in beforehand and obviously doing deep research beforehand, coming in prepared helps. But of course, in these moments of vulnerability, there's going to be, especially in the exact moment, there's going to be some reticence. I'm not sure I want to be this vulnerable. I'm not sure I want to open up. And obviously with your vast interview experience, what have you learned about conversation to get beyond that trite, practice, scripted, bullet point interview that many of these founders give? I think it's relatability. Let me give you an example. I have been very lucky over the last, I would say, 10 years of my life. To be able to informally work and advise younger people who are experiencing depression. Why is that? Because I experienced it when I was younger in a very deep and difficult and painful way. That experience in my life, as difficult as it was, and as at times not sure whether I would actually get through it, was a blessing because it actually opened up all these channels of empathy. It basically said, hey, you know what it feels like to be at a rock bottom low point. You know, you have a memory in your mind of lying on the floor of your bedroom, the cold tile floor, not wanting to get up. You have memories of not shaving or showering for days, not leaving your apartment in your early 20s. I have those memories. I know what that feels like. That has helped me be a better communicator to young people who are going through that because so many younger people feel embarrassed and they don't know how to connect with people. They don't know how to explain it. They don't know how to explain it. What I have been able to do is to share my experiences, and oftentimes when you share your experiences, people are more willing to share theirs. I think it's often a matter of just being relatable and having a conversation rather than just a one-way interview. It was something that you said earlier about being able to adventure in and discover and learn about human behavior. For a lot of young people, they don't have the experiences to understand all the different aspects that come into play for human behavior, especially the dark side of human nature and the faults of the human brain where it lacks capacity. We see the skyscrapers. We see the unbelievable companies that have been built, but there is not a better way to showcase the dark side or our inadequacies than telling those stories. For us to have a better understanding of human nature gives us a better understanding of each other and what it's going to take to lift each other. I did an interview with the founder of Lush Cosmetics, Mark Constantine. He built an incredibly successful business, and it's a great story. Started in the UK, and he really, I mean, he's not educated. He went to formally educated, but he went to study. He went to hairdresser school, and he really grinded and kind of, it took him a long time to build this business up. In the course of the interview, he talked about how early in his career he had a job, and then he just kind of said, and then I wasn't happy. I went to London, and then I just hung out there. I went to Bristol or wherever. He went to Bournemouth, South of England, and just hung out there for a while, and he kept talking. I said, wait, wait, wait, stop for a sec. I said, you just left a job. We just spent the last 10 minutes talking about this job for three years, and then you just left it in and went to Bournemouth, and then I said, what happened? He said, I just wasn't happy there. Something happened. Something was going on. What was it? Well, I just, I wasn't feeling up to it. I said, it sounds to me like you had some anxiety going on, and he just broke open into this story about actually how he's dealt with anxiety his whole life and still does. And it's so powerful because somebody hearing that can say to themselves, holy, the founder of lush cosmetics that I see in every city and every airport has anxiety challenges. This person who is on every level successful, has plenty of money, but has a healthy stable family. His kids work for the business. It's so important for people to talk about that because behind every single person you see, a quote I saw recently, and it's a great quote, and I'm sure I'm mangling it, but it's something like, every single person you see is struggling with something that you don't see. And I love that idea because if we could all approach, it's like, do you remember that speech that David Foster Wallace gave, the famous graduation speech at Kenyon College, where he's like, you're standing in line behind the lady, she's with her kid, she's taking forever, you're in a rush, she's like, well, what if she has like getting chemo? What if she's actually on her way to her doctor to get chemo? Like, what if she's barely hanging on? It's all these things. It's very hard for us humans to think that way, but if we could, if we could in a small way, adjust the way we think about other people, it could go a long way to making us more empathetic and kinder. And so in a small way, I'm trying to do that with these stories by going to those darker places. Now, I want to explore a little bit your journey through depression, because I know some members in our audience are feeling that way right now, especially the younger members who are going through this intense adversity that is COVID and the uncertainty around work. How did you power through your struggle with depression? And was there some key takeaways that you would love to impart to our listeners who may be feeling that same way? I mean, I'll start, of course, with the usual thing that I always say to people I talk to, which is I am not a medical expert and I'm not a professional and I really do trust professionals and I trust in science. Look, I grew up in a family where where mental health was not seen as a serious thing. This is not abnormal. A lot of people probably have that experience where when you get the flu or you get bronchitis, that's an illness. But when you are feeling depressed, that's just self-indulgence. What do you have to be sad about? And I understand where that comes from, certainly from my parents generation who were born shortly after World War II and immigrated to America and had to contend with a lot of challenges. What do you have to be sad about? You've everything. We had nothing. I understand that. We live in a very strange, we've structured our society in a very strange way. When you are, for the most part, if you grow up in a relatively secure and stable home environment with at least one parent, you know what's coming next year. It's going to be second grade or third grade. And then middle school, you know you're going to go to ninth and tenth and go to high school. And then if you're going to go to college, you know you're going to go to college. And everyone's cheering you on. Most people are saying, you got this. Go to college and then you get to college and you find your identity there. A lot of us first find our identities there. We experiment in college. We listen to new music. We experiment with ideas. We join clubs. We become known for doing something, you know, whether it's organizing an event or being part of a debate or organizing a protest or being an activist. And then that's your identity. Oh, there's AJ. He's really into animal welfare. Or whatever it might be. And then you graduate from college. And then there's no safety net. There's no next year. You've had 18 years where everything was prescribed. And everyone's like, you've got this. And then you're on your own. Add that to the swirling chemicals of mush in the brain of a person between the age of 20 and 29. And you've got the perfect storm for depression and anxiety. It's the intersection of how we structure society and our biology. And I don't think our biology has changed. I think 200 years ago, people between 20 and 29 had those chemicals. But we didn't have the other factors. So like, two, 300 years ago, you're 20. You're working on the farm. You're starting a family. You know, and your life is probably going to end at like 45. So you're already middle-aged. So it was different. Now we contend with a whole range of challenges. And so I think this is my very unscientific theory. But I think there's something to it. And I think that's what happened in my case. And I think that's what happens in the case of a lot of younger people. And I think that it's exacerbated today because everything is online. I look at my children who are 9 and 11, they're obsessed with likes on their YouTube channel or their TikTok channel. They'll ask me, Daddy, how many likes did you get on your Instagram posts? And I'm like, I don't care, even though secretly I kind of do. But I say, you know what I mean? And so all of our public lives are these like perfectly crafted images of who we are, you know, this Facebook, Instagram version of our lives where even in a pandemic, people still kind of, they're not going to post a picture of themselves on Instagram where they're lying on the bathroom floor crying in the fetal position, you know? Hey everybody, I'm really depressed, you know? So I think that's sort of some context to where I was and where a lot of people are at that point in their lives. Here's what helped me. What helped me was a good friend who is still my dearest friend to this day, who recognized that in me and who helped me get treatment. And in my case, I went on antidepressants for a few years. Now, I will say that there's a lot of different scientific debate over SSRIs, their effectiveness. There's been some really great studies about whether it's the placebo effect or whether these medications actually work. I can't speak to that because I don't have the scientific background. But I will say that in my case, whether it was a placebo effect or not, taking, you know, taking mild antidepressants for a few years really did help me. You know, it made me feel like I could actually get through the day. And really, as with many of these things, the passage of time has made it easier to manage. You know, depression, anxiety, they don't ever go away. It's like any other challenge in life. You will have it. It will come back. But what I found in my life, you know, now I'm in my 40s, it becomes more manageable. You know, I've gone through periods of depression and anxiety during this pandemic. We're all alone. We're dealing with a very scary health crisis, a scary economic crisis. We're shut in. We can't see our friends. We can't see our loved ones. We can't go to funerals of people we love. There's environmental, you know, catastrophes, hurricanes and wildfires and crazy storms. And here we are. I mean, it's a scary time. And we're living in a really politically fraught moment. What I find is that as I've gotten older, it's become more manageable. So when these things happen, they happen, I can recognize them, and I can do things now that really do help me. I mean, the reality is, and I'm going on so long, I'm sorry guys. You didn't know that I'm an endless talker. So forgive me. But what I find is that now there are some very simple and obvious tricks that we all know. We all know. There's no secret to happiness. The secret to happiness is exercise, make sure to find time for yourself, whether that's meditation or reading. Try your best to think about things you're grateful for and try to eat well. And there's a better chance that you will be okay. And in my case, I try to do those things. It's not always easy. But now that I'm older, I can recognize the signs when it comes on. And so it makes it more manageable for me to take action. The three things that you brought out there, the eating healthy, make sure you get an exercise, getting proper sleep and being cognizant of your mood swings and triggers and things that might bring on that anxiety. For any of our clients, any time that they come in, one of the first things that we are having them look at are those three things. I think those things have somehow gotten lost in the shuffle with all the technology that we have where they're not that sexy to talk about. They're not that fun. Who wants to talk about counting macros? That's what you have to do to be happy. But those things set up put together a foundation that allows you to enjoy and maximize your enjoyment for the rest of the day, for everything else that comes along and helps you manage anything that comes along that is going to trigger you, that is going to cause depress your anxiety. And I think you brought up something that many of us don't even realize and when we take a look back at history, 200 years ago, there was comparison certainly, but not to the degree that there is now. Everything is quantifiable from likes to going on Zillow to seeing your neighbor's square footage down to the last foot. Everything is quantified as technology has continued to grow into a bigger part of our lives. And I think that's certainly driving a lot of the anxiety that we're feeling because there's more choices than ever. There's more uncertainty it feels like than ever. And there's that concern, what if I make the wrong choice? And I just want to go into that initial decision or discussion and conversation around actually seeking professional help because I think a lot of people view that as a difficult choice and view it almost as a weakness if I have to seek someone else to solve this for myself. And obviously that conversation that you had with your friend encouraged you to take that step. And we talked about the result of that. But what was it like in that moment initially of even thinking about, hey, I need some help in this matter? Very hard. Very hard. Very, very hard because I had no experience with it. And I was embarrassed. Even to the point where I was like, God, what if somebody saw me in the waiting room that knew me? What if I ran into things like that? And really it was a matter of just coming to the realization that I had to. I had to or else it would get bad, really bad, much, much worse. But it is really important to try and talk to people about it and see if you can get people who you trust who can help you because that is key. I mean, there's a real sense of loneliness and isolation and it can get worse in the midst of a depression. And that can exacerbate it. It's like this. It's like a kind of a you know, a repeat cycle. Once it starts, it's just it gets worse and worse. And so it's really important to kind of break out of that by talking to people and by finding people that you trust that you can just talk to them about it. And certainly there is risk involved. And you talked about calculating that risk. What if I see someone I know in the waiting room? How is this going to impact me? And I think a big part of the lessons in your book talks about the risk that entrepreneurs are willing to take. And for many of us, those risks are too great. The leap is too big. And we look up and aspire to be a better risk taker. But what have you learned about the risk part of the equation and succeeding with a business idea that is risky? Well, I mean, here's the thing, right? There's the adage that without risk, there's no reward. And to some extent, and to a large extent, that's true. You do have to take some risk in life if you're going to be rewarded. And it could be something like the risk of going to that party and meeting that person who's going to change your life. Or it could be the risk of agreeing to have lunch with a person who becomes hugely important. I mean, risk doesn't mean going to the bank, withdrawing all of your money and putting it on number nine on the roulette table. That's not risk. That's stupidity. Risk is really pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, but you can do it safely. So for example, in the book I talk about Jim Cook, Jim Cook founded Boston Beer Company, Sam Adams. He had this very safe, stable job at Boston Consulting Group, but he wasn't happy. He was making a lot of money. He had kids, he had a mortgage, but he was really deeply unhappy. He felt like he needed to build something himself. But he was scared to do it. He was scared to leave all of those comforts and that stability. So he did it slowly. On nights and weekends, he started to plot out what a beer company would look like until he really had a working plan in place. It was still risky and he saved his money and he didn't burn his bridges. So when he went to his bosses and said he was leaving, he made sure that they said, listen, if you need to come back, we'd love to have you back. And he went and he started this business and it was a slow burn. It took him a couple of years before he got to profitability. Today, it's the biggest craft brewer beer in the country. And his family really doubted him. His family doubted him. His dad doubted him. His dad said, are you nuts? And that's important is that that was a risk, but he mitigated the risk. Almost every entrepreneur, almost every single one I've interviewed, they mitigate their risks. The stakes are high, yes, but the biggest risk that pretty much every entrepreneur takes is the risk of just feeling bad about failing. Most of the time, they do it in such a way where they can recover from it. They can go back to a job or they don't spend all of their money on it. They seek out outside funding. But by and large, risk is an inherent part of the game. But really, it's how we define risk. Risk is not jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. Risk is pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, is saying to yourself, you know what? I can actually do this. I can start a business because a lot of us don't think of ourselves that way. We don't think of ourselves as entrepreneurs. We think that guy's an entrepreneur or that person is. I work for a company or I'm a lawyer or whatever it is I am. But the reality is that there is no real difference between the people who start businesses and the people who don't. I mean, the only differences is that they do. The people who start businesses do. They make the leap. Everybody listening to this or watching this has had a great idea. I guarantee you, every person watching this has been in line at a coffee house or whatever and saw some inefficiency and thought, I wish that they had this or you're in some store and you're looking at, I don't know, a rack of jeans. You're like, I wish that they organized it or they had this or it was like this. Those are all business ideas. Those are all problems that probably need to be solved. I also guarantee you that people watching this have had ideas in their minds that they thought somebody needs to solve this and it has been solved now. Like a year or two later there in Walmart and like, oh my God, that was my idea five years ago. Somebody's done this. Well, the answer is you can do it. You can do it. You just have to take a little bit of risk, but you have to mitigate the risk on the path to solving that problem. That brings up the other R that in our entrepreneurial journey I have weighed more, which is regret and what you speak of, of having that great idea and watching someone else turn it into a success and have that ability, that chance to take the leap, but not, will we look back over time that regret is far scarier to me than the risk, especially when you're taking the steps to mitigate it. I agree. I mean, regret to me is scarier than risk, much scarier. It was scarier to Jim Cook, the regret of waking up at age 65 and saying, God, I did I waste my life. The fact of the matter is you can do this and the other thing I would say is you can do this at any phase in your life. I mean, there's a myth about entrepreneurs that they're all in their early 20s eating ramen and living in group houses. The fact of the matter is the average business in America, the average first time entrepreneur is 40 years old. That means that half are over 40 and half are under 40. I've done, I mean, one of the craziest stories we did on how I built this was Bob's Red Mill. Bob's Red Mill is one of the biggest producers of flowers and grains and you go to the grocery store. There's a whole section of Bob's Red Mill. He started that at age 53. He was broke. He moved to Oregon to become a pastor. He was in Bible school and he always loved milling his own flower. He was just one of these people, right? And he saw an old mill up for sale and it was really cheap and he's a wife or like, you know, let's do it. I can still be a pastor on the side. I still read the Bible and he bought this Red Mill and that was the beginning of Bob's Red Mill, now a billion-dollar company. I mean, it's totally crazy. A big part that I took away from the book, and you mentioned this earlier, is this pressure we put on ourselves in our 20s, right? That Forbes 30 under 30 list. And we look and we compare all these other seemingly overnight successes and these young entrepreneurs that, you know, Mark Zuckerbergs, et cetera, that reach unicorn status in their 20s. But to your point, they are the rarity. Most of the businesses that we come to rely on, that we love, that we use on a daily basis, they're someone's fourth, fifth, sixth entrepreneurial go. They are not their first idea. In fact, a lot of these businesses have pivoted. And I think there's the overcoming of adversity. And every single person you've interviewed has faced tremendous adversity in their entrepreneurial journey. What are the mindsets that you've encountered that have allowed them to face down that adversity and not quit when many others would give up on that idea? I think it is a learned trait. And I think there are a couple of factors that make it easier. I mean, the first is, is that you have to have an unshakable belief in your idea. And most people do, most of us do, right? If you believe that your idea has to be out in the world and that if it doesn't, if you cannot make it happen, then it won't happen at all. If you believe that, it is very hard to step away from it. The other factor is, is starting a business with a co-founder, having a partner with you, because invariably one of you will be down and one of you will be up. And it's just the way it works that when you're feeling really low, the other person's like, we got this. We got this. It sucks. This is horrible. I know it seems like the world's collapsing around us, but we've come this far. We're gonna be okay. And that, in every case where I've interviewed business with co-founders, that's been a key factor. It's been really important. I think that there's huge value in starting a business with somebody else for the very simple reason that they are, they're gonna be there when you need them. Just also having a different perspective as well helps out so much. Certainly AJ and I do not think the same. We come from radically different schoolings and thought processes, and we have very much different perspectives. And it has helped us tremendously in being able to look at problems, get a, just having his view. I'm like, oh, you know, I've been looking at this problem for a week and didn't even think about that. And all of a sudden new doors have opened up in how to handle it. There's no question. Having a co-founder or co-founders, a group of people with diverse viewpoints is a huge advantage. It's a huge net advantage for most. In fact, I talked about this in the book, which is Paul Graham, the famous investor and founder of Y Combinator. He talks, this is one of his principal rules, co-founder. He looks for companies with a co-founder. And I think that's super, super crucial. But on this idea of resilience and perseverance, it takes a lot of work. It's very hard. It's very easy to give up. What's hard is to keep going. What I've learned from all of these entrepreneurs is early on in their careers or early on in their journeys, whether they started in their 20s or in their 40s, they had some experience in their life that exposed them to rejection, a lot of rejection. And that experience of being exposed to rejection actually steeled themselves, gave them an extra layer of skin to deal with and absorb all the rejection that they would then face, building the business and sustaining the business. Because building a business is basically a journey of rejection. A lot of people say, this cannot be done. I'm not going to give you money. Who's going to give you money? This is stupid. Or they might be polite and just say, no, I'm not interested, but you will hear that a lot. I want to sell you my product. No, I'm not interested. You have to be able to withstand the nose because eventually, those noses will turn to yeses. And that's super crucial. And a lot of people who have built successful businesses started out in sales because if you are selling something door to door over the phone, inevitably you will hear no. And a lot of young people ask me, younger people say, what should I do when I leave college? And I say, go get a job in sales for a year or two. Just go get a job in sales and have a bunch of people tell you to get off their property because that will help you when it comes time for you to actually have the nerve and the strength to build a business. For myself, I was in the music business before I had gotten involved with AJ in building the art of charm. And the amount of defeats or driving eight hours to a gig, only for five people to be in the room when you've been having your hopes being built up for that eight-hour trip or sending out all of your records for somebody to listen to and spending all of your time trying to promote a show in your hometown to have your three friends show up and they're going, eh, it's all right. But it is as awful as all that might sound. You're absolutely right because it has helped me in tremendous respects to putting out content, feeling okay about it, not second guessing, not sitting on it, terrified to put it out because I had already gotten used to criticism in my 20s through just performing. I feel many of these business success stories that we're talking about here come down to relationships and your ability to build relationships, whether it's finding a VC to invest in your idea, finding team members to join that culture and work for you, opportunities to partner and find that co-founder, even just networking to grow your brand. And what are your tips when it comes to connecting and building relationships that lead to success in your life? You know, I think in terms of finding a co-founder, it's really, and we talk about this a lot on the show and I ask co-founders this question like, what is it about the other person that attracted you? And invariably, you get the same version of this answer, which is they had just different skill sets and interests. I mean, I like them. I knew I could get along with them. Like we just, there was chemistry, but more importantly, we were just interested in different things. And I love that idea because we're naturally attracted to people who are interested in the same things. You know, whether if you're in the music industry, you're going to hang out in the music industry people. If you're in sports and whatever it is, right? A lot of journalists hang out with journalists. I really encourage people to do what they can, everything they can to seek out, not just people, but also ideas that they're not naturally attracted to. You know, I try to, and I don't always do this well, but I really do try to force myself to read things that I wouldn't normally go to. You know, if I'm reading like a journal or a magazine, like, and there's an article about, you know, some article about politics, I'm interested in it. I want to read it, but if there's an article about like a poet or poetry, I will read it. I don't always understand it. I don't always love it, but I try and expose myself to different ideas. And one of the ways we do it on the show is by talking to people from industries that I'm not naturally knowledgeable about or that interested in. We do a lot of cosmetics. You know, I don't wear cosmetics. I'm not naturally interested in them, but I have become interested in cosmetics over the years because I've learned about the business and the industry, and it is endlessly fascinating. It is fascinating. And so my feeling is that if you can expose yourself to people and ideas that aren't normally in your wheelhouse, it's only going to work to your advantage. You will only benefit and gain from that. I agree so much. And I've felt this pattern in a few interviews with co-founders, and it was really expressed in the book, the guys behind method. You know, you have an extrovert and an introvert. And you kind of need that balance of, okay, someone is going to go inside to problem solve and to figure out what's going on, but also someone else needs to go outside and win people over and use that extroversion to the business's advantage. Is that a pattern that you've seen in co-founders where they have that sort of opposite style in their communication? Yes, 100%. And also, you know, there are preferences in that area. Like, you know, I mean, one of you guys is slightly more extroverted than the other one. I think Johnny is more extroverted. You are spot on. You just, it's your natural kind of comfort zone. You'd like to kind of be around people, and AJ, you know, takes a little bit more time, right, to warm up to people. And I can tell that. And that's how I'm actually an introverted person, too, even though I do this public job and I have live shows in pre-COVID times. It's just my natural kind of, you know, state of being. I think that having and having those different, you know, those different personality traits are just hugely advantageous, you know, especially when you are, you know, not only building the business, but presenting the business to people. Because you can always, it's a constant balancing act. You know, in a business, there are always going to be times where one co-founder is going to be, you're going to lean on that co-founder, and the other times are going to lean on the other one. And back and forth. And having that balance and that ability to kind of lean a little bit more one way or the other is crucial. I mean, it's, building a business is a marathon. It is a really long marathon. It doesn't end, even once you've achieved flight. I mean, you guys have a business. Once you've achieved success, you don't just throw up, you know, you're not just sitting at a fault of money and throwing it up in the air. It's really hard work. Once you hit cruising altitude, there's even more work to do. Exactly. That definition of success changes, right? And when we look back to what success was 15 years ago, we've far surpassed it, but we wouldn't call ourselves successful today because you're constantly reorienting to that new level of success. I agree. Now, you ask every guest whether luck or skill and hard work accounts for their success. And early on in my career, I would have jumped to say hard work. And it's the skills that set me apart. As we've gone longer in our entrepreneurial journey, and we like to joke, had nine lives already, and we've had co-founders and lost co-founders, all that process, I think luck is a very big part of our success. And I wonder what you've learned about luck versus skill in the pursuit of success and asking all of your guests that question. I mean, I know it's a binary question I ask, but the reality is I'm not looking for one or the other answer. And it doesn't have to be either of those things. It can be anything, really. It's just kind of a device to give somebody a chance to reflect on their journey and why they think it happened. I think in every case for everybody, luck passes them by. There's something that happens. I was interviewing Jamie Siminoff, the founder of Ring, a couple of weeks ago. And he told me a story about this moment in his entrepreneurial journey when he was at a really low point. His business doorbott, which was the precursor to Ring, was doing really badly. They were close to bankruptcy. He was feeling like a failure. He had not really had any successful businesses yet. And a friend of his called him and said, hey, I've got a friend. He's an entrepreneur. He's looking to talk to another entrepreneur about his business idea. Would you have lunch with him? You're the only entrepreneur I know. And Jamie was reluctant, but he's like fine. And he goes and meets this guy for lunch in Hollywood. He's just not psyched about it. And he's really annoying. And he goes to this lunch. And the guy tells him his stupid idea. And Jamie's listening to it. And he's being very friendly. And he gives the guy advice and feedback. And he's doing his best he can to be supportive. And right before they leave the lunch, the guy's like, oh, what are you working on, by the way? He's like, oh, it's nothing. It's this doorbell that is like a video doorbell. But it's not really going anywhere. It's like, that sounds like an amazing idea, dude. You should put that on Shark Tank. And he's like, well, yeah, I mean, everybody wants to go in Shark Tank. How many in Shark Tank? He goes, the guy goes, oh, my friends are producer on it. I'll get you. I'll get you his contact. That lunch changed his life. That's luck. That experience going on Shark Tank changed his business. It wouldn't be a billion-dollar company today if it wasn't for that experience. So they're always going to be lucky breaks. We're always going to work hard. But hard work is par for the course. There is no business in history that wasn't built with hard work, not a single one. And by the way, waiters and waitresses and construction workers and gardeners work a lot harder than people in offices. So hard work alone isn't enough to become successful. It's a combination of hard work and luck. And what would you choose to do with that luck? Absolutely. And we love to ask all of our guests, what is your X factor? So we think and believe that an X factor is when a mindset unlocks a skill set for you to see something in yourself that you didn't believe was possible to help you achieve success. My X factor is my developed skill of curiosity. I have chosen to be curious. I believe anybody can make that choice. I think curiosity is much more important and interesting than intelligence. I think it's much more valuable than intelligence. I think intelligence is overrated. I am curious because I wake up and I choose to be curious. It's not always easy. Sometimes I'm exposing myself to things that are really boring. But that curiosity has enabled me to learn about things that I wouldn't know anything about. It's helped me to grow intellectually. It's helped me to be a better interviewer, to have better conversations, to be a better entrepreneur. And I think that is my X factor and I think anybody can have that X factor if they choose it. It's just a choice. Well, that leads us to our weekly challenge. And I think many in our audience struggle with that curiosity component. When we talk about conversational concerns and issues and struggles, I think one of the bedrock foundational parts of any conversation is that curiosity. And if you're finding that conversations have awkward silence or you're stuck in boring small talk, it's in large part because you're not utilizing that skill of curiosity. So how could we challenge our listeners to develop that skill like you developed it yourself? It's really, really easy. You just have to choose it. You just have to decide one day. I mean, think about this. Everybody watching this at one point in their lives was a child who would walk down the sidewalk and look at caterpillars and bugs and be endlessly fascinated by them. Would look at the stars and say, oh my God, how far is that? Can we go there? You know, would ask questions about the moon. When was the last time anybody watching this just stopped and looked at a star and said, my God, that's five light years away. We will never get there. That closest star? It'll take 20, 30,000 years to get there. You know, it's so simple. We all have it. We just stop engaging with it as we become older and more cynical and more focused on the narrow things that we have to focus on. It's about reclaiming what we are born with. We are born with curiosity. Children from a very early age are born with it. Go to any four year old. It's an endless litany of questions because that's how we're wired as humans. We are hardwired to be curious. It's just a matter of choosing to do it and choosing to reclaim it. It is as simple as that. Thank you so much for joining us, Guy. It was a pleasure to finally get to sit down with you. Johnny and I have enjoyed not only the book, but your show immensely and the lessons that we've learned along the way in our entrepreneurial journey have shined through in so many of those conversations that you've had with your guests. We really appreciate you coming on and taking the time. Thank you, guys. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate your support with the book.