 Thank you for that very clear presentation of the issues at hand and reminding us effectively that there are Macro issues when it comes to Transport big-scale metropolitan wide as we've heard the first two presentations and actually some micro issues in terms of intervention Which are very very important because that's at the heart of our inquiry. What can you do in the physical shape of the city? Which makes a difference. I'm always reminded Gita. I think I'm right that the number of deaths Which don't cause shock or horror when you see that figure of a hundred and sixty thousand a year Comes into focus when you say it's more than one jumbo jumbo jet crashing every day That's that's the sort of way to think think of that in terms of the the headlines and I'm steaming it from you as a story I'm not inventing it myself We now have time before coffee for Discussion and what I really would like to do is since after this session. We really are moving Back into the health and well-being discussion and talking to people who are specialists in health in diseases and in How do you actually deal with? Not just the planning side, but the provision side I'd like to as much as possible connect what we've been saying in terms of transport equity and Social inequality with speculations about what that means in terms of the the health issue rather than just keep it within the Mobility context. I mean that's in the spirit of sort of interdisciplinary discussion If you're to talk about that, then yes, exactly Yes, it from what I know in Europe, but art Yes, or at least in France many of those Lethal accidents in cities Also caused by people who were under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Have you been able to establish any linkage? Thank you chairman for the University of Hong Kong Thank you very much, you know for this a very exciting program, you know, we learn a lot in the last two days About the questions related to the urban age Pope projects. It's a very much City focus. I would perhaps, you know, like to take the liberty to Inquire the relations between cities and his hinterland and in this particular comment I I probably would like to follow up from Jimmy's presentations in the case of Hong Kong knowing very well that Hong Kong will not and cannot survive without Fresh water supply food supply, you know from the hinterland and such you know in the context of a healthy city I think this is also very important and part and part shows of the success of any cities that we can contemplate and argue if I may just invite Jimmy to sort of take us through the Possible integration, you know beyond economic integration of Hong Kong in particular after 1997 That how Hong Kong can fare itself as one of the leading metropolis, you know in the light of the Integrations, you know with Shenzhen and beyond within the part of the Delta area. Thank you. Okay, if I may Very briefly, I just give you a start off of some figures at the moment Crossing between Hong Kong and Kowloon is about one and a half million people each day Crossing the boundary between Hong Kong and Shenzhen our city in the mainland is about half a million every day So as far as government is concerned one of our major initiative under the Hong Kong 2030 study is to enhance the linkage with the mainland this we buy we do by Investing in infrastructure. We are now building the Bridge a road bridge to linking up with Macau and Juhai on the west side of Hong Kong This is if you like the missing link at the moment all the links are with the north We are now also building the high-speed railway with the terminus at the West Kowloon Near the West Kowloon cultural district It will take you 15 minutes to go to Futian the CBD in Shenzhen So we are doing a lot of work in terms of infrastructure We also have regional cooperation with governments in Guangdong Macau and the city as city levels Yes, I think you know that the question without not saying answering it directly is Yes, it's good to connect, but who is one connecting? I mean, I think that's that's important It's like the question perhaps yesterday, which is a Development that's good, but good for whom and I think what came out from some of the presentations today is the So clearly we understand there are vulnerable communities of very very different sorts in or in or our cities and Access to transport can either help or make worse Those those conditions and I think that's something hanging in the air that we may want to go back to in Philip I might ask you to comment on that but detail up Yes, I'd like very much the presentation, especially I would like to make some comments or this exchange ideas with Philip So linking the question of equity to accessibility. I think it's extremely important and and but maybe we have really I would I would Make a radical hypothesis that the success of of of Monbe is the result of not planning I think we we have really to link this question of of this transport equity in the in comparison to the important impact of informal settlement in informal economies and When we look at Monbe So we see that in the middle of Monbe. We have the biggest slums There are we with about one million just in the middle of two railway tracks and When we when we compare it with some power on and what's also important that This is breaking down of the textile mills that people created their own microeconomy So you have extremely integration of Living and working in this in this informal economy in Sao Paulo The the favelas have been pushed out and they are more linked to the formal economy Say followed with a with a with a manufacturing sub-organization out of Sao Paulo and And with a visit the end of station that cut off from from their the opportunities to jobs So you have a double problem of equity in Istanbul with a get your contours you still have this Relatively mixed structure in the middle of the city But as we have seen the get your contour are more and more pushed out and turned down and replaced by gated communities so this this this middle position of Istanbul might be an intermediate position and The problem, but we are facing is that evidently and that was also the position of Of what we have seen of of Ketem that as soon as transport planning starts The the the mobility I would call it mobility equity not transport equity mobility and accessibility equity declines and This is actually is a very very serious problem for our profession That that the better results as a result of not planning and as soon as we start planning we reinforce Inequality Philip do you want to comment? I mean Mumbai you can't really says non-planned It was planned by 19th century early 20th century British transport engineers with two railway systems, but not yeah, Philip Yeah, I mean I think that conclusion partially is very tempting but I would also be slightly more more careful because I believe in planning but the the I Think what the problem here is and you're absolutely right that what we're seeing in Mumbai and what we're seeing in Istanbul unfortunately, it's probably a pattern which is now radically changing and Will probably not be sustained if developments continue as business as usual and in that sense The already sort of so to speak higher developed Sao Paulo metropolitan region is sort of the model the tendency is going towards and very unfortunately now the problem is that the current informal settlements and even the case of Istanbul Where I said sort of the consolidated informal settlement seemed to be a good model are unable to bring us to the to the sort of Degree of formalization, which is required when it comes to the core structure of the city The the quality of the housing that sustains in the case of Istanbul an earthquake and in the case of Mumbai that provides at least a minimum level Of services in the long run So I think that that upgrading process Is the one which we need to? Detach from a process of peripheralization And I think that you know in many ways is is sort of the the key to and more integrated success story So I mean it really does mean in favor of planning, but planning with a sort of understanding of these impacts at the Very diverse social levels of different groups as opposed to being generic often. We just talk about Big macro issues in terms of resolving the problem It's much more subtle like it. I'm on this and then three more questions very quick intervention for Mumbai See the other interesting part in many Indian cities including Mumbai is because of our electoral democracy Because originally they start as an informal settlement illegal settlement, but when the election time comes Most of these people are regularized So they become they become part of the for this somewhat become part of the formal system It's not that easy to shun them out of the city Just a question about and there is a rush by a number of Indian cities to develop underground transit system Much like the cities in China is that emphasis misplaced in terms of solving traffic problem and fatalities problem Absolutely, I think so because Most of this rush is coming as we understand and our group has been doing a lot of documentation on that it is mostly for Investment purposes. It is not really to solve public transport problem In fact with this I would also like to point out because since this morning We heard twice that Hong Kong 89 percent is public transport But your own document here is showing 44 percent people in Hong Kong are walking to work and within public transport bus is 30 percent and train is Metro is only 13 percent. So many times. It's a perception. What is dominating and This is what is happening in Indian cities in Delhi after having now we have about nearly 200 kilometers of underground It carries only less than four percent of the total trips For very brief Stations rather and then we will find out my family Taylor who's led all our recent Hello, I have a quick question for mr. Lung And I wanted to pick up on a couple of the points that you emphasized early on in your presentation regarding your overall objectives Which I think one was around convenience and another was around Diversity and vibrancy and I wanted to ask you a little bit about some of the trade-offs between those because that was something that came up in the research that we did with Professor Yip Hong Kong University and That the two specific examples that you mentioned were pedestrian walkways around Central and also the the redevelopment of the Harbor front on both sides of Victoria Harbor, so I guess I wanted to ask you in relation to those two Specific cases what you see those trade-offs are and what the possibilities for for developing things differently might be Thank you Jimmy if you make a note of those questions, we're gonna come back at the end Rick Yes, Rick Rubens from work I just want to with an eye toward the specific health issues that we're going to be talking about later I think it's very important that we consider the kind of planning that we're discussing whether planning is good or bad There's a role for public realm planning that that is very important in community building and The kind of issues that Richard was talking about the success of the places like Darabi in Mumbai Have to do with the fact that there's an intense sense of community and a sense of personal interaction with other people and certain kinds of public transportation planning Public space public realm planning that creates the kind of parks and and places for interaction Actually is essential to the creation of the kind of well-being Has a effect on physical health through mental health. Is there a question? There's the question that these are this sort of thing is something that I'm hoping that we talk very directly about In our future. Okay, Jorgen You're gonna ask him to Denmark In the discussion on transport, I'm very much the bicycle. Where's the bicycle? I mean previously Asian cities major the bicycle played a major role in some European cities the bicycle Has been on on the reduced but it's now coming back in my own country Denmark Copenhagen 37% of daily working trips are made by bicycle I think we all do agree that the bicycle in terms of health is very good in terms of environment It's very good, but in in it. It appears to me planners do not ride bicycles. I mean I miss it Jimmy. Do you ride a bike? Do you ride a bike? It's a bit steep here I Congratulations for being re-elected to lejko no as a district counselor You're one of them. Oh, well nearly sorry, but in the district council that has a lot of transport issues, right? but So it's interesting to know that those who are healthy in Hong Kong have probably less access to public transport And those are not health wealthy in Hong Kong But I'd like to point out two things that of commerce that were made earlier one is Walking in Hong Kong is primarily to get to public transport and when the looking at the number of walking trips It's usually during the day from one business appointment to another business appointment So the numbers there may not give you the the reality Equity is great in Hong Kong. Everybody has access to public transport in Hong Kong, but now there is an issue We are currently building smaller flats and and you've heard that we have very small living spaces in Hong Kong we're building even smaller flats at The at the spaces where we like people to live big to provide equity in central spaces above railway stations So we're building smaller and smaller flat to make sure that those spaces are affordable So is it improving equity or is it not improving equity? We're creating we making it worse in Hong Kong the amount of living space It's available to allow people who can't afford living in central to live in central or to live above a railway Station, so I think as a as a as a as you think about these issues Think about this problem that This is where our research which HKU Paul Yip will be coming on this. No doubt later Did come up against the term which for us outsiders was Difficult to understand of convenience and Jimmy has used this David is used it carry Dr The notion of convenience in a way respond is a response to your question in terms of smaller space the trade office But to be 10 minutes away or and that that that seems to be a cultural choice and issues that dimension We haven't talked about a lot. Now. We're about to wind up. I mean, I think we should take another five minutes We'll cut into your coffee time. That's okay Philip on this point Jimmy I'm coming back to you. I think what our research indirectly suggests And I'm pretty sure that the space standards in Sao Paulo are far superior to the other two cities But with the enormous problems that are generated by people being virtually excluded from the labor market almost go as far as suggesting that The compromise in personal living space is maybe the better compromise compared to the one in metropolitan Accessibility now. I'm not sure how that translates to this specific question of equity in the case of Hong Kong But I do think that the poor in Mumbai While being still integrated in the urban fabric have Long-term a better perspective of development than those that have been Peripheralized in places like Sao Paulo, but having greater space standards Paul did you want to comment on Paul Yip on Paul Zimmerman's point about I Think in Hong Kong, I think the people are very Permanent of every they do like to have the convenience and sometimes because of the pressure world and then all those are things They are willing to sacrifice their comfortability because of the convenience I think they are talking about they are willing to stay in this so so called a split threat within a threat Which the total living area is only about a hundred square feet But because the long-working hours in Hong Kong and actually they say that there's no point I have a 600 square feet when I went when I go home and then it is dark already I won't be able to see go to see the balcony and then you have no will anyway So so because of long working hours, and that has to do that is the compromise I think the Hong Kong people are willing to make to make the compromise But what my question is how far can we go? I think they miss a certain limit. There was certain threshold that I think we are going to break I think if we are not going to mitigate this or leaving space The problem in Hong Kong Jimmy if you could address this question and the fan with detailed question before I do that. I want to Do the things that you mentioned about transport and equity. I don't want to leave it in the balance I want to address the issue if I may Although admittedly my department has done not done any research specifically on that But every two years we did survey on the cross boundary movements So from our survey, if I remember correctly a lot of people Just of the not high-income group are going to China to work some are coming back to work here About 10,000 students are now crossing the harbour the boundary from Sengen to Hong Kong for schools every day So a lot of people better off people go off for weekend for golf in mainland So I would say that from my impression is the infrastructure plan by us are Being used by all walks of life, but I can come back You know, maybe next time to address the question to specific points. Yeah, but on the specific point I don't quite get that my fennies point if I remember I Understand it correctly the pet what way provide all weather condition and also the Parminar will be for all people. It's very close to the where our concentration of Population the the harbour area. So it's going to very easily accessible and Me finally, what's your concern? With the pedestrian walkway, I guess it's slightly connecting with some of the things that professor Senate raised earlier And I think even raised by the country as well around street life So you're elevating the street and it's being provided often by a private developer So that was the question in relation to the pedestrian walkway I think it's slightly different in relation to the harbour front and I didn't explain this very well But it's quite striking on this side. I think of the harbour that It's very much dominated by what I would see as a sort of urban highway and also by bus Depot and ferry terminus quite separated from the more walkable areas So I guess it's about how you're gonna manage to open up a walkable waterfront with all that Infrastructure that functions very well in terms of convenience, but maybe not in terms of very quickly The question first it's going to be difficult But we are trying to remove all these if you like barriers from the waterfront promenade to enhance Accessibility, I think for us coming from outside. We have to abandon the notion of street level You know they're ten street levels in Hong Kong In central the pedestrian flow is so intense that I'm sure that we can have both levels What you do we still have vibrant streets, so that's not a problem for us J General point. Yeah, general point. I'm worried a little bit that our conversation has moved As a planner who works mostly in public health to a very fragmented very planning design oriented discussion and away from what we've learned In decades in public health of more of an integrated relational perspective So moving away from just transport just land use just design just physical activity to what are the characteristics of places and communities and cities that make people more healthy and to continue to perpetuate the kind of research and Conversation that's fragmented. I think it's only gonna you know not really lead to kind of the more interesting relational idea place of social physical Economic meaning making the kinds of things that we were talking about in part yesterday In all parts of the world that kind of make places healthy And I wonder to what extent this the transport research that we heard about or the opportunities around the Olympics Are kind of thinking in this relational way about how do we connect the dots as opposed to take the pieces apart Yeah, well, I mean, I think we are going to use that big question You've raised as a way to frame some of the next sessions that we're going to have I mean I think in Presentings and Andy's case of the way the Olympics has been looked at as a piece of physical planning It does join the dots It does actually attempt to do some of the things about Centred on place-making understanding vulnerability of different communities and I think that Phillips work in Making the connection between excluded communities and transport systems is very much trying to get out of the box So sometimes conversations do revert to type I understand that and you're right to remind us I'm going to end the session here. I want to thank Gita. I'm Jimmy and Philip for their excellent presentations And could you please be back here in? 22 minutes. Thank you very much