 Take your seats. Let me just see first how happy and grateful I am to see you here all tonight We have friends here. We have leaders of the movement. We have practitioners. We have even policymaker, which is fantastic We even have some president, which is remarkable if I look at around the table Tonight we are in fact doing one thing which is rather complex, which is really to try to unpack some of our I would say concept that we like to play with if I think about the movement But also if I look at the humane sectors Which is the concept of Complementarity, right? How are we able to complement each other and I think somewhat it's a given we found that so normal It's clear all our status policies push in that directions But I'm so happy that We go one step further tonight with really the unpacking of the questions of complementary of all of us In arm conflict in other situation of violence in here Which is great is to bring to you to us in fact a report Commissioned by the British Red Cross on three specific cases Colombia Ukraine and Somalia very different cases, but also a great way for us to look at what works What are really convergence point, but also what are what are the pain points? Where are the tensions? So I think it's a great opportunity for us to really look into that because of course when you think about complementary You also think about the famous notion of localization Which is another buzzword that we all talk about Which has been so central to the Grand Bargain and I think to have a sense of what does that mean? I like the title local as possible international as necessary Fundamental, but I think we need to grasp what it means I'm also very happy that we are able to start with I would say evidence-based so having the strong report case for complementary Understanding where we are being able to discuss that tonight It's also a fantastic options for us because most of you here will also participate tomorrow and after tomorrow To our national society leadership meetings and I really want this leadership meetings being really placed under the signal If you want of complimentary and I think being challenged also by that I had a very interesting discussion with some of you I'm just looking at Eunice for example Which was challenging me about complimentary as always and think how are we really complimentary or are we? Competitors within the Red Cross Red Crescent can we do better? I think there are some questions which I think We'll be able to then develop over the next two days. Our environment is changing quickly I sometimes feel this is the same thing we saying every year, but I don't know how it is for you I really feel the pressure increasing on us on our volunteers and our people. I feel the competition is changing I feel that the way state are looking at us is also shifting quickly I think that the way that's also people our own staff are expecting us to deliver differently It's also shifting quickly. So I think it's great to have a report which is really looking at concretely some elements That will give us a good base for discussions for tonight And then being able to bring that tomorrow for the one who stayed with us So tonight the way we would like to do so the first five hours will be really focused on the report It will be read at length. No, don't worry. Don't worry. So the idea will be the following one We will have in fact Lewis Lewis Austin One of the Person Commissioned independent consultant Commission. Where are you Lewis? I can see how perfect Lewis Lewis will Lewis has a lot of experience has has worked in the movement the Red Cross Red Crescent Have a lot of experience Dealing and also doing some consultancy for the UN for NGOs for the Red Cross and She was one of the two authors of the report So she will give us kind of a five ten minute max about Highlights of the key element of the report and then we'll have the chance to have a very distinguished panel That will be moderated by our dear friends Alexander Alexander Mateu, you know all Alexander Alexander is the executive director for International at the British Red Cross, but it's even more interesting for the one who do not all know It has also been Somebody who has seen also the Red Cross from the international side has served several time as leader of the Federation at different region has a good experience About operation, but also policy organization development He's also somebody was quite an expert in prevention So I think he will bring us a lot of expertise with a fantastic panel of people. He will introduce the panel Take the time I think to bring the panel discuss some of the questions related to the report I think also open the floor. I mean we have here around the room. I can see people are ready already to contribute We have around here people who are ready to contribute and then I will make sure just to be aware of that We will have exactly one hour and 25 minutes because at 7 30 We will be able to continue discussions if you want with a glass of water or in juice of wine In order to be able to to lead us and have some nice dream and reflect a little bit about some of the questions related to Complementary last comment. We are this moment is webcast at a time So please if you take the floor Remember you need to have the mic like me very close people need to be able to hear it And we think this is a conversation So I think we also want the people to be able not just to react tonight But also to continue the conversation on the very specific issues. That's it Welcome again, very pleased to have you here. Lewis. This is your turn if you want you want to sit to have to cope maybe here Better Lewis. Lewis you have the floor. Thank you. Thank you very much. Good evening everyone So as you've mentioned, I've got five or ten minutes And I'm sure he's gonna give me a wing if I go to eleven minutes, so I'm gonna try and keep it brief Just to cover some of the main issues that we came up with in the research report on Complementarity before we started on the case studies in Colombia Somalia and Ukraine It was necessary to have discussions with the ICRC on and the British Red Cross on what Complementarity means for the international Red Cross and Red Crescent movement and to try and come up with some kind of definition of Complementarity So we found that there are a number of different features That it refers to so it's the interaction and comparative advantages between the local national and international components of the movement taking into account their respective mandates and The seven fundamental principles of the movement as well as the operational settings in which the different components are trying to work So for the movement in situations of armed conflict and violence Complementarity is considered to be a combination of the strengths that each component can bring in a complementary way That ensures the ability of each individual component as well as the movement as a whole To respond to the humanitarian needs of those affected by conflict and violence The the synopsis report is based on three country case studies And it allowed us to look at conflict and violence in different stages So we were able to look at Complementarity in situations of protracted conflict Recent and ongoing conflict and conflict transitioning into peace, but where there is ongoing violence, particularly urban violence And we concluded six thematic areas in the synopsis so although Each case study was able to come up with unique areas of Complementarity These are the six areas that run as a common thread across all three or at least two of them And we've captured these in the synopsis report I'm not going to go through each of the six key areas tonight because there isn't time and you have the report anyway But I've just picked two or three of them to cover in a bit more detail So firstly one of the key areas that came out across all the reports was Access and networking and all three case studies highlighted that even in very complex sensitive and highly politicized conflicts and situations of violence the movement's ability to access Locations where humanitarian needs are high is frequently if not always as a result of complementary action Two of the features that allow for access and then subsequent responses are Proximity to and trust of those affected by and involved in conflict and violence So here the national and international components of the movement were found to work in different ways Sometimes they work separately and sometimes they work together but with the common goal of addressing the needs of those affected So at times it was the international nature of the ICRC and its complete disassociation with the causes of the conflict Combined with its neutral and impartial nature that has helped to strengthen Trust and facilitate dialogue with weapon bearers and those who can influence their access to reach those in need and at other times or sometimes in parallel it's the proximity of the national society to affected communities and Given that also their staff and volunteers are often coming from those affected communities That has allowed for a trust in them as a neutral humanitarian actor and that's been critical in ensuring both dialogue and access Whilst this varies from one conflict environment to another Access to often hard to reach populations is frequently as a result of strong Separate but parallel dialogue with parties to the conflict combined with sustained engagement and action which again boosts trust and facilitates acceptance and access Principled humanitarian action was actually a separate key finding in in the synopsis report But of course it runs as a foundation to all that the international Red Cross and our crescent movement does It's been acknowledged that undertaking humanitarian activities in a principled way in Polarized societies may be more challenging for national actors Like the Red Cross and Red Crescent National societies as they may be more subject to the dynamics of the conflict Or be put under pressure to act in a certain way and this can affect at least their perceived neutrality and impartiality However, the case studies that we looked at Highlighted the ability of national societies to operate it in a principled way even in the height of some of the most devastating complex that we've seen in recent decades The work of the Somali Red Crescent in Mogadishu's Cassini Hospital serves as a really important example of this where they With the support of the ICRC have been able to offer medical assistance to weapon wounded Regardless of who's been in control of Mogadishu and this is as a result of the national societies Understood and accepted role as a neutral humanitarian actor another Area where movement Complementarity has been found to be essential has been in relation to protection activities in Some key protection related activities It's the combination of the strengths of the national societies and the ICRC that provide a positive example of Complementarity in action So for example with the missing here the local knowledge and understanding of the national society staff and volunteers again often coming from communities where people are missing as a result of conflict and violence ensures that the families of the missing are provided with relevant psychosocial and administrative support and That sensitive data is collected from the families in a culturally appropriate manner This combined with the international expertise That the ICRC can offer in relation to issues such as gathering data in a standard way from its learnings across the world the forensics work that it does and its support to national forensics institutions as seen in Colombia and Ukraine for example and Ensuring the existence of legal frameworks to address the rights and needs of the missing and their families Serves to highlight that bringing together these different added values of national and international Components of movement helps to fulfill the right of families of the missing to know that what's happened to their loved ones There are some aspects of protection work However that are best carried out by the ICRC and its international staff alone This tends to be detention work Which if undertaken by a national actor could put them at risk or compromise their perceived neutrality impartiality and independence and also the collection of information on the conduct of hostilities which tends to be sensitive in nature and here the ICRC's International character and its recognized mandate and confidential mode of action gives it a comparative advantage The the third and the final kind of area which came across in all the case studies was financial Resources and as I am sure you're all aware Financing for national and local actors is one of the key commitments of the Grand Bargain Focusing on increased financial support to local and national responders The case studies showed that in situations of ongoing conflict the ability of national societies to raise funds both domestically and Internationally is severely limited and actually not just in situations of ongoing conflict but in situations where Conflict is transitioning to peace and funding architecture changes from humanitarian to more development Focused funding can also be difficult and that's being faced in Colombia at the moment In some context the ability of national actors to access financing is is also hindered by international anti-terror legislation and stringent due diligence measures and here the national societies are often heavily dependent on the International components of the movement in order to strengthen and develop their capacity to respond so not just the ICRC But other national societies supporting Internationally as well as the international federation Historical approaches to providing financial support to national societies have half a however often seen short-term and Project-focused financial support, which has tended to weaken national societies as a whole And what we saw in the case studies has been a shift in recent years and a positive step in terms of strengthening movement Complementarity with a move away from this project short-term Approach and a new focus on the provision of multi year transversal organizational development support And this includes support not only to technical and program related activities But also support aimed at national society development and supporting roles such as senior management positions Just finally I'm not going to go through the the recommendations that you find in the report because you have it yourself And I think The panel is going to be a lot more interesting than me running through what's in front of you But we made recommendations in six thematic areas linked to the key findings And whilst they are directed primarily at the international recross and recrescent movement They should also resonate for other humanitarian actors supporting local responses and national organizations so thank you very much and Alexandra hand over to leave I hand over to you. Louise. Thank you very much Just stay for me a minute I think please have a look without now going to detail because it will be discussed by the panel But if you look at some of the next step in terms of recommendation, I found some of them very practical and Some of them are rather interesting right in terms of where we are right now If I look at our own organization and the way we are working together I was really interesting about if I look just for example to develop a knowledge stick organization development and capacity strengthening We know it but it's so interesting Collocates international and national staff as an example the collaborative HR skills So there is a lot of things which are coming out of that which I found very interesting. Thank you very much Louis great job really Advises to everybody but people who didn't have the chance to read this report. This is worthwhile There's a lot there which will be very helpful Alexander up to you knowing in the room. I see some friends arriving welcome some friends here Happy to see you and also just wanted to recognize that we have also some colleagues from country was Supporting a strong supporter of the Red Cross Red Crescent, which is great It will give us the opportunity to reach out to them Alexander floor is yours and now with your fantastic panel Talking about the issues globally and I can see life is complex Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. I can maintain a bit I can continue the discussion if you want Managing that kind of maybe you want you want to call the panel one after the other you good So please Can you hear me that still sounds okay, okay Okay, good evening everybody Eve. Thank you for the introduction Lois. Thank you very much for the overview How can we be stronger together? How can we work together to achieve collective impact not just our isolated isolated impact on our own? These are big big questions For the international Red Cross Red Crescent movement and actually big questions for the wider humanitarian Ecosystem my name is Alexander Matthew as he said thank you for the introduction I'm director of the international side of the British Red Cross and I can see many friends from national societies here So I'm sure this is true for you as well in British Red Cross We know that what we can achieve alone is always going to be small Compared to what we can achieve through partnership and Complementarity so I am delighted To unpack that challenge with us because we're not as good at it as we should be and it should be our real instincts And we've got five great leaders of the Red Cross Red Crescent here to help us discuss it to unpack our learning But I know there's a vast amount of knowledge in this room as well So we're going to start off the conversation We're going to kick it off together But I am going to be turning to you so if you've got ideas if you've got experiences you want to share If you've got questions about what you hear this evening Please do sort of hold on to them because I'm going to come to you in this discussion But first of all, we've got a great panel. So if you'll allow me, I'm going to quickly introduce them before we kick off so Doris Marcelli Hernandez Martinez welcome Doris is a well-recognized scholar who has extensive teaching experience in international humanitarian law and international humans rights law Since 2018 Doris has been head of the peace building an institutional doctrine unit of the Columbia Red Cross Delighted to have you here. Thank you Lillia Lewis is the Director General of the Ukrainian Red Cross since 2017 Prior to joining the Ukrainian Red Cross Lillia has been a lecturer and deputy dean of the Kiev Institute of International Economics and Entrepreneurship and a senior manager in the Kiev Youth Center and Assistant to the Committee of Local Self-Government of the Parliament of Ukraine. Welcome Lillia to have you here Mr. Abdul Kadir Ibrahim Haji Abdi is the Organizational Development and Communication Director and Assistant to the President of the Somalia Red Crescent. Abdi joined the Somalia Red Crescent as a volunteer in 1991 Great length of service He's also been editor of the Daily English News Bulletin for the Somalia National News Agency and a member of the Somalia Olympic Committee Sophie Orr is Regional Director for the Americas 20 years experience of the ICRC working in many different complex environments including Niger, Mali, Senegal, Sudan, Northern Caucasus Your most recent positions of the last two years have been of a global nature including leading international cooperation with national societies around the world and Pascal Mej also 20 years experience in the ICRC but 22 But today representing the IFRC's Director of Disaster and Crisis Prevention This is the longest job description in the movement Director Disaster and Crisis Prevention Response and Recovery Extra large business card to cope with that for the IFRC Supporting 191 national societies in disaster response and preparedness. Welcome for all of you Great to have you here So I'm gonna kick off with a few questions which explores what's going well in complementarity How we're stronger together will unpack a little bit of that then we'll turn that around and challenge Where is it going less well and what do we need to be doing better in the future? We'll have a conversation. We'll have to see how long people answer the questions But we'll try to keep this first conversation going for around 25 minutes, and then I'm gonna Turn to the floor and get some comments for the rest of the debate. That's okay Okay, so Abdi I'm gonna start with you if I may So we've got You know Somalia it's been 40 years of partnership with the ICRC and one of the critical things in the Somalia context is Perception of neutrality So can we ask you just to talk us through how the partnership with the ICRC has strengthened the perception of neutrality of the Somalia Thank you very much. Yes That's true. The the partnership has been long-standing and we were always working closely, especially when it comes to Getting the getting to the communities there Somalia Red Crescent Society being you know a community based organization with the with a large number of volunteers plus a war wounded hospital three rehabilitation centers and almost over a hundred and twenty health clinics we build trust and And because our presence in all of us Somalia has really given more credit So in that case also we always try to network with ICRC ICRC always it's it's it's the Activity of the Somalia Red Crescent and ICRC one of it is like networking we do attend networking meeting In the ICRC likewise ICRC also are invited to attend our networking. So there we try to coordinate and Try to find out actually and then we also have what we call What team working teams of all the movement members not ICRC actually we also try to form a kind of Action or like what we call the task forces thematic task forces so we always call coordination meeting and try to To discuss the issues that are there So Somalia Red Crescent leads all this and then especially in the south central Where there is an where there is a you know conflict and then many stakeholders are actively operating We always closely work with ICRC and and and and share Things that need that need attention Thank you Lily if I can come to an example of you Ukraine as a quote in the report which says The ICRC provided Ukrainian Red Cross with the institutional cover to operate Can we sort of unpack that a little bit? What is it that Ukrainian Red Cross could not have done without the ICRC and what is it that the ICRC could not have Done without the Ukrainian Red Cross. Yeah, thank you very much for these questions really like a kind of a good example of the growing step-by-step Complementarity because first of all just to understand the context which is in Ukraine for five years We need just to bring us to the country five years ago So the peaceful country and the peaceful national society in this country who never was ready for the armed conflict and this is the main where we were stayed and The question is that the conflict is within the boundary of one country and what is the most important in such situations? how we see it's and Just neutral intermediate actor and ICRC just provided from the very beginning Provided this kind of the neutrality between both sides On the both sides of the contact line and this is like the main the main crucial scene in this situation how it helps it helps just to Maintain the unity of the host national society in our cases Ukrainian Red Cross society and Also, it is a very good example how to ensure local branches both sides to operate Okay, thank you very much that we'll come back to that important point Sorry so I can come to you, please one of the critical issues in the long conflict in Colombia has been around protection and adherence to international humanitarian law How has the collaboration between? Columbia Red Cross and the ICRC and the wider movement enabled Columbia Red Cross to promote International humanitarian law and particularly to advance protection for for example internally displaced Okay, okay. Thank you. Thank you for the question in Colombia and the conflict army has How long is it more more more long in the War and maybe 60 years ago With the with the ice ICRC really the the Decomplementation in the teach money international humanitarian law is more than this 90 years in the in the 90 years in star them the study with the international humanitarian law Primarily with Rulers and basic basic rules and both an organization are Are now for the expertise in the topic and start with the with the years 19 with the all the public's with the armies with the authorities with the universities and really a The Organization are now for the expertise in the topic is so how the Authorities in the topic and start with the with the rules basic rules more specializing topics with the Specialization program at the very city master in Now and start a year 12 20 Start with the topics the protection DPS missing C-C Contamination for weapons for weapons or recruitment to Jones more more topics related to to protection and Continuo Continuo had been really a Both organization a Work in lead where between really really work and then What together together in dissemination In promote to the measure to application measure to application with the authorities Now with the other other situation a urban violence is the topic and now in this in the last year the the main the main topic was the Implementation to agreement but now with the increase to the situation related to the Armored conflict Again again Remember the rules to international humanitarian law the last week the the director the office the ICRC in Colombia remember that the What is the the meaning what is the meaning that the what we see what what is Complete armoured armoured conflict Between because they are nothing is not complete Okay, thank you. I mean, it's a long partnership with the ICRC and the same in Somalia. It's not quite so long in Ukraine When I did the report it talks about 40 years of partnership and they're quite a unique integration of the leadership Leadership of the Somalia Red Crescent and the ICRC in the office in Nairobi I mean, you think that 40 years of investment was a fantastic foundation for an institution But the report also highlights Many of the development needs still of the Somalia Red Crescent Should what should have been do you think something should have been different in the way support has been provided? Not just by ICRC But in the wider movement that would have laid stronger Foundations for the Somalia Red Crescent and the ones that were laid in the partnership over the last 40 years Yes, first of all, we are grateful for the support that we Received from all movement partners, especially ICRC ICRC Together with Norwegian Red Cross has been in the forefront in supporting right when the civil war started in Somalia and And without which the the national society could not have Existed so from there, you know building the capacity of the national society in terms of Maybe training the volunteers and all these things yes, we can say that it has been something worthwhile and And the question of what would have been changed I think most of these maybe support always go to the broad like like projects like like, you know short-term projects So so then there was nothing left for the actual development of the national society and building the institution and all this so and and also that That could also enable the national society to have a long-term and sustainable So because when the project phases out, maybe maybe nothing to continue from there So maybe that that is where we need that down the national society is working on a on a on a five-year National society NSD national site development plan We are trying to put together all the support given to them and they're in this pot so that When one project stops, I think or maybe donor is not Able to continue we have that already planned in the plan and then we can so when we lay out that that National society development plan it really it will help So all the movement partners will will bring their their support into that pot And that will be managed by the national society And just maybe on because I think that's a very crucial point. So I'll stay with you for a moment this the report highlights the challenge of investing in project implementation as opposed to institution building and it Highlights that most partners are doing that and that comes out not just actually in Somalia But just describe what does investment in institution look like that is different from capacity building for project implementation Actually, I think it's it's a tricky but again You see the national society Need is to to be a sustainable national society national society at least can can cover it is core Services not relying all the time on donation is whatever and also to have a kind of local But for us in Somalia because of the of the situation in the country It's not possible for us to do a kind effective fundraising That's why we are relying on But the moment that changes we have to now start to train the national society the day Somalia becomes Okay, so we can engage with the community and get and we are into that We are now having different processes going on like resource mobilization like the HR, you know All this will will so these are the things the areas that the national society should build even if you are in a conflict situation You also need to prepare the national society For for the peaceful time, you know, so so it's not only busy, you know giving relief activities Whatever again also on the other side, you have to build the capacity of the national society You have to have all the policies in place and and also we are very much keen on becoming more Like now we are very much focusing on making the national society accountable Like booting in place Financial management, you know sound financial management and and also exposing the organization to audits If we because we are not saying that we are in Somalia. There's a conflict. We don't do we are trying We are trying and now at least five processes are now going on so that the day maybe the country becomes Okay, so the national society is strong enough, you know to address. So I think these are I don't know if I answer We'll come back later. So how different parts of the movement handle that I mean, I'll Lily, I'll come to you next because again, there's a quote in the report which says ICRC is particularly well-placed to respond to needs that require rapid and neutral humanitarian action Ukrainian Red Cross is particularly well-placed to deal with issues of long-term need such as health issues This but I suppose a big issue is that as a conflict continues that distinction breaks down between Short-term need and long-term need and Ukrainian Red Cross Traditionally has been involved in more for the social safety net home care health work more than emergency complex like response what extents is the partnership with the ICRC and the wider movement Enabling Ukrainian Red Cross to continue its core business of longer-term support to vulnerable communities Or is it just focusing on the short-term need of Humanitarian need caused by conflict actually it was focused but not now and the only scene Which we would like to change if we were in the past it just to start the Focus on complementarity in our operational activities Earlier then we start for example since 2016 17 and Actually, we changed our short-term project approach for the implementing of operational activities to the development of the different Programs of the host national society of Ukrainian and Red Cross society and just as an example so mobile health units We had an experience since the Chernobyl catastrophe. So since 1986 in mobile health Units or diagnostic Clinics which operates all over Ukraine We had an experience in the beginning of the conflict with mobile health units But it was only project approach and it means that the project started and then the project finished when the all the indicators were filled What we changed we created one unified program of the host national society and Complementarity in this we have Because all the partners movement partners Partially support this program and It provides us the possibility not to finish the service for beneficiaries and the beneficiaries. They do not See who exactly support them right now at this moment. They only have like non-stop service where it's needed and This is like the Red Cross movement complementarity in Ukraine the same as you mentioned about home care We as Ukrainian Red Cross society we have 55 years of home care services Combined medical and social services, but the complementarity and partial Participation of the moment again we started in the way when we started to develop one program one standard not project oriented Approach but the program oriented approach where all the part no complementarity Participate in this activities again. This is very big added value for the final beneficiary. So they do not Stop to receive the services where they need great good example Torres one of the sort of key Features of a national society is its auxiliary role New auxiliary role can sometimes sort of cause a bit of tension with international partnerships In what way has the auxiliary role of the Columbia Red Cross been supported? by movement partnership With the ICRC, but also with other movement I want to start with the idea that say about the in the practice the the public the beneficiaries Don't don't this team which which part of the moment one movement is Filly if finally it is a they say they receive that service and say is the Red Cross yes, and in Columbia there is the delegation to the ICRC both the last 50 years ago and a Germany Red Cross and Oregon Red Cross and Spain Red Cross and federation and all the two programs a with Everyone with the expertise Germany the Red Cross Germany with this with the health and no no one is support the violence urban violence and other programs and Spain with the CPM and ICRC with the All activities about that protection and international material law and federation with the development to the national society and now with the migration We were where all the all the components here any in this moment Net help with this Related to the role Auxiliarity there is is is is well with the the access to the authorities and Columbia Red Cross is part to the authority the Management to the rigs, but the authorities recognize recognize side the independence That the that the Columbia Red Cross is very important and now the last year or again with the situation with Venezuela the movement a all the movement is Necessary the They have the the strong the impartiality independence and Neutrality that the movement with the help to the victims Thank you Sophie the Complementarity coordination partnership come out very strongly in the ICRC's new strategy Can you talk us through what is the ICRC going to do differently over the next over this strategy period? Compared to how it approached those issues in the past Well, I think When we talk about the past and it was mentioned earlier how relationships are built over 40 50 years I think it's it to compare how the ICRC was 40 50 years ago to what we tried to do today is Is perhaps not helpful in the sense that the ICRC has moved on I would say and has a different approach today and how it wants to do it in the future as well So I think already starting from today and with a new institutional strategy Yes, I mean there's in terms of building strategic and Really equal partnerships. I think there's a real willingness to do this in terms of Working in in complementarity there's a real willingness to do this So I think we already have today good examples and I think we have to also go back to all the work was done with the SMCC process Where interesting enough, it's not really mentioned in the report Or if at all and I think there a lot of work has already been done between all the movement components, so I think Taking that forward if you look at some of the good examples that came out of SMCC We talked about Ukraine, which is one of the the labs South Sudan There's there's a lot of examples. I think and we have to really focus on those examples And in a way we have to make them systematic Because often they are examples which perhaps don't often enough get recorded and shared And replicated So I think there there's quite a lot of work to do still now in the future For also for the ICRC as for other components where we can really try to maximize on what's already been done if I think just Some examples we have today In Colombia where we work together with the Colombian Red Cross in detention I was mentioned earlier that you know detention is very much ICRC But in fact, there's a lot of examples where we do work together with a national society And the example in Colombia is a good one with juvenile detention centers where the Colombian Red Cross does a lot of work with the The young people who've been tied to armed groups or to gangs and they get them back Trains and rehabilitate into the communities. They work also with the families So I think that there's a real complementarity that we've been doing now for some time. It's not new Another example also in the Americas is all the work on urban violence and how we're working together with the Norwegian Red Cross and Specifically for national societies and the IFRC on on what is the best approach to to answer to the consequences of Unviolence of urban violence and seeing how we can all bring to the table Something to to really address these issues which cannot be Taken on by one component. So I think there there's there's a lot So I would just say that yes, there are many examples and what we really need to strive to do is to make them more systematic I'll stay with you for a moment and Pascal this one will be related to the question for you as well Do you think Sophie we are having the right question the right conversations to bring that out because if you Maybe the past is not helpful as you say, but I think an old way of doing it would have been we all turn up with our plans and Then we sort of stick those plans together rather than get around the table and say what do people in crisis need How are we going to serve them best who can bring what to the table to make sure we achieve our humanitarian outcomes Do you think we are getting better at having the right conversations that build? complementarity and collaboration In a fiance, yes, that's great If not, what do we need to do to move from where we are now to having those conversations where we build plans together No, for sure. I think we can all do better and I mean, I would go back to SMCC because I think it's a real foundation and building blocks a lot of Has a lot of potential to help us get there And I think yes, it's it's a question of it can depend on on really very many different situations but if you have the right people on the ground who are able to to sit around the table and With the National Society really at the center of it trying to work to To strengthen the National Society not just in the short term but the long term and if one can sit round and really Look at the needs and also what can be done in in the whole Localization of aid agenda. I think there there's a real opportunity for us to to come together and and to find a way To to look at the needs and then what we need to do as a movement to be able to best address them Thank you And Pascal I'd be interested in your take on that as well, but just to sort of frame the question the report Sort of sort of refers to ICR IFRC in each of the country contexts it It breaks down the financing in these contexts, which we know ICRC is often the biggest budget holder in Environment you've got quite big bilateral Investments and a smaller but critical IFRC investment And the emphasis particularly on the strength of capacity building of national societies Could you talk us through how IFRC can play that? complementary role within conflict environments that really brings out the strengths of the IFRC's experience and expertise in capacity building of national society It's a big question Maybe just to start with I think we just need to make to dissociate The the notion of the presence in country and what is happening in country versus the value of a membership organization We haven't really talked about that But we are not just a bunch of local actors with two international components We are a humanitarian network the biggest in the world with not only seven principles that we share but tons of other Issues that that we share I mean we share issues as a movement But we also share issues as a as a federation Membership and here I think we just need to give value It didn't come in the report because there was not the focus of the report But we need to give value to what this membership organization is sharing in terms of overall governance issues Integrity you were mentioning Accountability transparency that we tackle as a collective and also all the the policies the strategies the standards and the tools I mean in the end it also goes to the capacity building component So that we have a common grammar and that we introduce an element of predictability because you can't build Complementarity if you don't have a certain element of predictability so in the in the role of the IFRC as a membership Organization with the collective I think we need to stress that which is not something that comes Necessarily at the country level but but it really is what helps us to all work together because if we didn't have all these More systematic elements. I know it's not very appealing but nevertheless, it's it's very important now when it comes to in-country I might I might just throw a bit of a provocative thing But I do feel that we we still are very much in a conservative mode about The mandates and the missions and working the complementarity around the mandates and you you mentioned Alexander Why not having that conversation about the needs Sophie you said it as well You said I wished we had the conversation earlier This is what we would hope to do through this reckoning movement coordination incorporation for those who don't know what SMCC is about That so she was mentioning Indeed what would really be a game-changer would be to sit around the table at the beginning of a crisis or even in Preparedness of a crisis through Continuously planning. It's okay. If those things arise what do we do? What the national society wants to do can do how can we enable the national society in having its domestic response? The the word of domestic never comes as this is the center the rest should be Subsidiarity it should be complementing it should be supporting But that that is really what what we would say is federation is a national society at the center But the center means having a domestic response and what cannot be done then indeed there is a there is a space for Subsidiarity although I I know from George from the Lebanese Red Cross that you feel it's already ambitious enough to talk about Complementarity within the movement if we go for subsidiarity, it's really extremely ambitious But nevertheless, I think the shift if we speak localization Would be there instead of sticking to our old views conservative ways of saying we have mandates and then how do you define? Conflict related need versus non-conflict related need in Ukraine you know the impact on the overall delivery of Homecare and social services in Colombia the fact that you have a lot of people who are moving away from one area to the other the Same for Somalia. We say well south-central indeed is really conflict affected Somaliland and Puntland less well pence the Puntland sometimes it is but sometimes not and it's actually that little border area that if That becomes really very complicated somehow. It's artificial division about a Common reading on on what are the human needs in this particular country with one national society The host national society the home national society that needs to answer those Situations and serve the people. Yeah, so reverting really the the conversation on what the IFRC can Can bring I think it's indeed is to be sitting with the national society in helping to define What are the strategic choices to be made? Together whether conflict or not when it's conflict of course with the ICRC because the needs are To be defined together and and how do we play that with the institutional strength and weaknesses of the national society? however, that's very difficult to do in a conflict environment first because the needs are very pressing the challenges are Enormous and indeed there are challenges around the resources that are available for such a conversation because the resources They go for immediate answer to the needs of the people Affected so I certainly did not answer your question, but I do feel that the the notion of having a conversation Around the needs and how do we come about? Together is is much more than working the complementarity of expertise and mandate Yeah, I agree very much. Okay, so we've had some good examples the way that access protection Neutrality and capacity are enhanced through complementarity. I want to I'm going to give one of our colleagues the floor in a moment But do have I think if you've got examples about where complementarity is working where it's not working How we can get better. I'm going to open to the floor in a few moments But Regino Gujano, I'm going to give the floor to you if I may just for a moment Regina is deputy head of multilateral affairs division at the Swiss humanitarian aid now Many of you may know that the Swiss government is the co-chair of work working group number two on local localization from the World Humanitarian Summit together with the IFRC and that of course Regina will give you a broader sense of what's happening in the whole sort of localization agenda and how such a Complementarity discussion fits into that and so it'd be great just to give your insights What if what have you taken from the report and where do you think this fits into the wider debate that's going on? and Thank you Yeah, thank you. My name is Regina and I'm very happy to be here I think it's a very interesting discussion and I'm listening carefully what what was said I was also reading the report I think it is first of all, I would like also first of all, I would also like to To comment and and to congratulate The British Red Cross and the ICRC which started to and have launched this research This is one of the peace which was so far less discussed in the whole localization agenda Globally so the the question about localizing aid in in the context of conflicts on And violent And violence so I'm conflict and violence. So a Couple of points on the report Striked me when I was reading it and also now leasing it to to the the plan them maybe firstly Some points of I will put this here so I can a little bit Firstly, I think what came out of it is and we hear different context three of them and What we hear a little bit when it comes out of it. There is no solution which fits all Which fits all to all questions. So no no no one fits all solution This also is something which was confirmed In the in the work stream on the localization Discussions we decided to together with all the convoy as of with all the work seek members to to do Field visits and to go and see what's what we discuss on international level What what does it mean on the ground? So we went if you have not if you don't know a bit I will tell you we went to Bangladesh to Iraq and there is a third mission plant So and it resonates a little bit also from what we saw and in this context again It's it's very it's complex it is It has a lot of nuances which are important to take into account when we speak about localizing it Secondly also the dynamics which which are highlighted in the report are valid to the Red Cross movement, but also Can really fit in as you said into the international as in the global discussions on on localizing eight and one of the of the point which which Which are often discussed which we saw in this field miss visits But also which comes out a little bit what you say it's about the this long-term Capacity development strengthening and good partnership It's not just about money, but it's also about Financing and as it's about real partnership The the report also picks up some concern which lies really on on the heart of localizing eight and it's about Dynamics power dynamics and Between local national and international actors So also this when I was reading the text the report and listen now to you. It's a lot also about this working together These these dynamics which are between these different actors Another point When when we when we when we I was reading it and which was and you were highlighting the good the good cases and one of them is about Strengthening capacity. It's not only one-sided. It is two-sided so that not only about International supporting capacity strengthening of local actors, but also worse wiser and I think the one of the Example which came or stroke which was really nice to read. It's about a Columbia case about urban violence which afterwards supported ICRC to Learn from it and and to pick it up and to bring it to other context and and Which was influencing their work in other contexts So I think these are it shows how important it is that we really look it from different sites And of course the report also has some some findings and also a lot has been done We we were hearing it from during the history, but still there was There is or there was at least it was written in the report some equal unequal partnerships and some In all the three cases of the in all the three contexts Sometimes The partnership is about local actors being implementing partners service providers instead of real partners So When we look at these these points, which I just said now this really resonate also the discussion on the broader localization Agenda which are discussed in various of different Context and I think the complementarity is is very important But as as it is I then is as it is dynamic and really contextual oriented. So a Constant reflection on it a constant mapping a constant Discussion a constant dialogue is important to see how can we best Work together as you said to really address the needs of of the population And this I am happy to was happy to hear it also and this also resonates on the agenda. It's about Addressing it in a systematic way, but also giving Predictability which is very important for local and national actors also to To plan to work and we hear it as the In different cases which you would for saying that the planning Importance of the of a longer term planning and not only being dependent on short-term project. Of course, this is Not easy. So we don't say this is something very easy and and to be to be a chief But I think there are a lot of inspiring Examples put in the in the report But all were also highlighted by you now and one of the example which was not in the report and now I'd switch a little bit my my head is co-convener and come to STC to Switzerland because one of them we support and this is this national society invest investment Alliance which is Which was or is From the ICRC and the IFRC and an initiative to support the capacity strengthen of Of national societies which exactly looks at these these components to really in a To address and to strengthen the national societies were Based on on needs us on on the needs assessment. So I think to To stop here, but and and and once more to To say The the report comes in a timely in a timely moment where the discussion on localize localizing aid are really Very much ongoing and really brings in an additional perspective, I think when it comes to the context of of Violence and and and of conflict. So thank you very much. Thank you very much Regina, thank you for those helpful comments So I'm going to ask now whether there's anybody who would like to make any comments from the floor I know this affects all of us. We all know we can be stronger together But we all know this challenge is as well about how to make that happen. So Let's hit is any questions. I knew I was going to see don't have to pick on anybody But this is not a shy bunch is it so hands are up. I think Cali you were first George second and a gentleman So can we start with Cali on the third row from the back? Thank you, I would like to add one thing when we speak about Complementarity I wasn't 40 years ago in Somalia. I was 36 years ago What we did was that was the league Federation nowadays Training Somali Red Cross and first aid instructors There were national societies involved and ICSE was supporting that So we were together with Somali Red Cross and building a platform all over the country I thought I wasted my time when I left there nine months later I didn't see the results then and then I saw dr. Ahmed few years later who said that half of the trained people Volunteered immediately when the conflict started. That was the payday for me And I believe it was for the movement because what happened was that we had developed Kind of equally really around the country Capacities which were able to be used immediately That allowed access to people who needed help and the Somali Red Cross and had Sufficient number of people who knew how to work with the movement. So there were there were really the platform done Already for the complementarity by the Red Cross and that time and I think this should be highlighted in our work when we work in programs as said and like Lillian Referred to this fact that the National Society was not really prepared for conflict We can we can take that into account when we are training the colleagues in DM programs. Thank you Thank you. I should say Kelly is international director of the finished Red Cross and everybody else who speaks could you please just introduce yourself before you ask your question and George Well, thank you for this presentation the aim of complementarity role is to define roles and responsibility Regarding memorandum of understanding We have the example of trip a tight meeting between ICRC Federation and Lebanese Red Cross where we can define the roles and Responsibility we can support each other and you mentioned some about the project when we build the strong relation and We maintain and sustain We can we can achieve to have to move from project to programs and this is why The movement is something where we cannot duplicate or compete each other the aim is We mentioned building capacity. Yes we mentioned development for a long-term Accountability transparency is nice words in practice. We need to see how we can Because as movement of red cross and red crescent and I hear as DC also The aim of our back donor is is to see the transparency and accountability and this is what we have here What we are doing is as a strong movement To have to achieve to have one voice when we complement each other we are in the clear roadmap in the clear plan with a clear strategy and How we can respond and prepare ourselves and this is what? the role of the Federation and OD has to do and to complement the role and To help the national society with the support of ICRC. I think 80% of our mission and you mentioned the three three national site where there's a conflict Conflict in this country, which means Conflict it has to show one voice and it has to to hear one voice from the movement. Thank you For questions up the next one is a gentleman on the front row here, and then the gentleman And again, could you just introduce yourself please as you ask your question Thank you. My name is Hamid Awaluddin from Indonesian Red Cross I would like to comment on Complementarity and address my question to Doris as I understand You teach international humanitarian law as well as International human right law my question here is Do you ever have cooperation or joint program with ICRC in terms of establishing curriculum on Humanitarian law as well as international human right law and perhaps also you share Teaching method or exchange instructor The reason why I address this question is that the College student used to be the most effective driving forces for Changing within domestic society. Thank you Okay, thank you very much for the question Gentlemen please here Hassanis Fandir Iranian Red Crescent Society I'm grateful to the ICRC and the British Red Cross to conduct this important topic for the For this research, which I think it starts New dialogue between the different components of the movements and we need also to develop the idea To see it in from these different aspects and different angles The question I have is that we have now I mean we have discussed the complementary role from the Partner of the movement on the other side We have also the auxiliary role of the National Society with the governments with their own governments Sometimes it may happen which we have these cases that there is a Controversiality Controversiality between the complementary roles and the auxiliary roles so the question is that in this research have you seen or predict predicted the controversial controversiality between the auxiliary role and the complementary role within the conflict situation With the governments and on the other side, we have some non-governmental actors who are Taking part in the facilities and we need also to define the roles with the other non-governmental actors So and then in this controversiality how can we define the role of the National Society and Also the complementary role of the component of the movement. Thank you I'm going to bring that one to you in a moment. That's okay I've got three more hands up and then Four hands up and I'm gonna fill in five hands up then we'll wrap up with some from comments on the panel So I've got Conrad thank you Conrad so I am the Secretary General of the Canadian Red Cross First of all congratulations on the work. I think this is very valuable I have a sense although we're not there that we could start maybe placing things on a continuum from Non-crisis to crisis to crisis and some of the aspects is it's not quite coming out But I want to focus on something that's been said a couple of times is is Systematic systematic my sense is we're very good systematically at a few things that we've organized They're in systems and we're very poor systematically at other things and we talked about institutional building in times of crisis and also Institutional building where we're heading for outside of crisis Which is a whole set of skills in terms of dealing with the state when the state gets organized And you're dealing with a state and you're an auxiliary to that state So you know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results But we're systematically doing a number of things well and systematically we're not systematically we don't have a system in place So I think we need to think it and is it we don't have the skill sets for that We don't have the you know, we don't have the expertise. We have their expertise to do some things well But obviously others that are always left out. So how do we address these things? So I think next is Dr. Sayid Thank you. I'm Dr. Hammur Sayid the president of the King Red Cross Society Privilege to be here today to see the launching of this research And I want to thank all those who are involved in bringing this up We compliment each other every time when the disasters and we also Do capacity building among ourselves and that's a nice things to happen But let's not hide Because at times we also compete against each other and we should not shy from that If there are such issues, let us tackle them and solve them put them on the table and solve them It has happened in the past Let's not forget about it and we continue with that side complimenting Sorry for the so many red crescent because about two years ago all the good work They have done by the support compliments of other movements were brought down to ashes by the attack of the terrorist We even lost some volunteers the red crescent from from a red crescent and they lost the building and vehicles and I would like to ask Abdi What have you done so far to rebuild yourselves and whether you have got support or any other Partners from the movement to compliment and assist you. Thank you I'd say thank you for those comments And for the reminder that there is there is conflict and complementarity as well in terms of tension I'm going to come back to you when we do our closing remarks if I made it good You've got that question to answer Two hands up use it Oh, I'm sorry. I missed it. Sorry. Dr. Eunice. Did I miss you? So Dr. Eunice then use it and then The first time okay, then I'll change the order if I may Thank you very much and really it was very nice presentation and I know my clique half is there and he said all What has been said by the national site But I need to talk two things one is the complementarity and and as a national site from Somalia red crescent really we are very proud and we are very I mean Happy to say that the complementarity is practiced in Somalia and one even we were talking about regional Regional blazes in Somalia like Somalia and Bundtland and South Central Bart is not about that We divide the the the areas of geographically, but it's like we complement it. Let me take as a for example when the federation I mean We were Regaining a lot of people through the PhD. So there was a problem from federation then thanks I seriously really they came into it and really they support the national site to reach more vulnerable in that area So it's complementarity again if one of the partners really doesn't have anything the others is there to Support the national site. It's really it's practicing in Somalia when it comes to my my my friend Hassan, I know him well when it comes to the Agus larity and complementarity for us. It's not I mean Big deal because we do the common matter Complementarity within the movement. So when it comes to the rt. We say auxiliar to the authorities We don't say auxiliar to the government. So what we do is we we are auxiliar to the authorities in terms of Humoritarian, but not we don't build the capacity of the authorities We reach the most of vulnerable people in the area where the authorities Authorities are are are staying like extra up So I see an SRC as really we have a great or or certain acceptance from there We we don't support the the the authors in that area, but they give us the permission and access that we reach a lot of Vulnerable people in in in that area. So so for us Really, we it's very clear Complementarity and auxiliarity because auxiliar to the authorities. We don't say auxiliar to the government So so we are auxiliar to the everybody in in humanitarian wing Not not in everywhere So and the question that you asked it earlier to Afi, which was what will be How can we do things better than we are now as Afi said? Well really What we get from a partner is more project to base it or program based Activities really we would like to see that we we move from there because Together the movement and the national site we we we we always Think and care about the vulnerable people, but there is a element missing here The hosting national society if we can focus more capacity building of the national site will be better To to be more professional and sustainable institution of the national site. Thank you very much Thank you very much So we got two more hands then we're gonna have to start summarizing Dylan your next place and then dr. You Thank you very much Dylan Winder from the UK mission in Geneva First of all for the UK the Red Cross movement is absolutely critical critical for localization So we really welcome the report and we think it's great that you are looking at these issues and Also really thinking about how you can move into multi-year how you can move away from just sort of stop-start Projectization is great and if we can help on that we will I guess my question is a little bit about the partner national societies Which we haven't heard so much from tonight and you know We know in in a number of locations you have multiple partner national societies as well as IFRC and ICRC When the UK set up its rapid response facility for NGOs We basically wanted NGOs with local capacity, so we didn't see lots of people jumping on planes So so my question is how within this complementarity Does the role of the partner national society change in a similar way to the way in which the NGO sector is looking at that? Thanks. Very good question. I'm just I'm noticing the time now. We've got 10 minutes before we close I've got a number of questions we want to address and I really would like to give the final just very very quick opportunity to say any closing remarks Dr. University Thank you. You know, it's a deep Palestine red crescent. I only raise my hand when dr. Said spoke He provoked me Really conflict conflicting roles is very important. I think we'll continue going into circles trying to address civil agreement from SMCC and then complementarity I Think the anchor it is in civil agreement will continuously lead us into clarifying the unclear in different names But let's be frank. I think we need to address civil agreement. What do you think? For our meeting for the next few days Thank you very much very very last question now gentlemen on the third Gentleman here on the third row bank Thank you for the report. My name is Michael Hayden. I'm with a question really is to Pascal. You had mentioned that complementarity is best done before before an emergency strikes or during peace time And I'm sure it's people sitting around can make nice Plans around how they would work together but often when an emergency strikes you get different players coming in and those nice plans that you do during peace times necessarily always play out in reality So how do you manage that those nice plans? You might be doing to complement each other or discuss those before disaster But then the situation actually changes when you when you respond. Thank you Okay Thank you very much for those comments and questions It's got a few minutes left to try and wrap up Lois I'm going to start with you if I may for the question that was directed by our colleagues in the arena record Thank you. So it was about the auxiliary role. I think in the case studies that we looked at The the auxiliary role of the national societies Wasn't one of the most prominent features Certainly not in Somalia in Ukraine It definitely came up around the role of the national society Along the line of control which which Lillia has already covered to an extent But I think there's a difference in terms of the dialogue that the ICRC has with national societies and that which With authorities and that which national societies have with their authorities in terms of supplementing or substituting their role for humanitarian activities, but a lot of it is around perception and They're the whole Discussion around principled humanitarian action and how national societies are perceived is what came out most strongly in the case studies There is thank you very much about so colleagues who's got last few minutes now, so Doris you've had one question to you directed on IHL Pascal you've had a question about these sort of the pre-compensate You've had your question around the support on the reconstruction But if I can ask all of you if it's good to be quite brief You can answer sorry my sort of crackling To be quite brief when you answer the question and if you can make each of you just one Observation about what change you would really like to see if you can think of one major change You'd like to see that really will strengthen our Complementarity and partnership in the coming years just so we finish with throwing some ideas on the table that we can unpack Over the next two days. I need a mic doing on my mic is playing up. Sorry if you struggle to hear me Thank you, and I think the complementarity is necessarily Make the most Strangely than everyone component of the movement really in the stringing the every every component when when work Both in the space is more is more Effective effective Related to the question about the dissemination the international humanitarian law Both components ICRC and National Society Had a strong experience in Colombia with this dissemination Start with the rules the international humanitarian law more do Curriculas for every every authority depend if it is lawyers or armed force or populations civil populations or Universities depend Construct building curricula for every public and Really in Colombia the now about the international humanitarian law is high the constitutional court Help Strong to understand the international humanitarian law these There's no now with the agreement in with the park The the Discussion about the international humanitarian law was strong was very important. Finally. I Really the the national society and international and ICRC and clarify with the Authorities insist at their responsibilities that correspond about that The government International humanitarian law the the foreign examples that that present at the studio at the study a view different forms to complementarity in violence Urban violence The role to the both components are are important a Both a layer about this really a this but DC are Is it the same is the both both? had been a layer how war in the urban violence and in the with the termination for weapon The the National Society has now a very strong Thank you the with the cooperation with the international the ICRC now is independent is is very strong and Missing we in missing a the ICRC war with the authorities and with the expertise and my management to That that and a national society a war with the families and support a psychosocial support Doris, thank you very much We are really running out of time and we're not going to be able to answer the questions I'm just going to give you if you've answered the asked a question and our colleagues have not answered it Eve did promise us some water after this so we can we can gather together and sort of finish those questions But I'm just going to quickly run through one thought one big change You'd like to see on the whole complementarity agenda over the coming years. They were put in a stronger position Just a quick fire. So if you I'll start with you. Thank you I think if we talk about being stronger as a movement stronger together then there we really need to focus on on the whole National Society development certainly for ICRC It's one of the movement related priorities in the next institutional strategy, but I think there's a lot more that we can do And we have examples already today But I think there if we want to maximize on the localization of aid agenda I think really having strong partners so being a strong partner But also having strong partners to work with is absolutely essential if we're really to respond to all the needs Yes, yeah, I think the National Society in the center and and if we really want to be strong and It's all about building the capacity of the National Society or maybe then the host National Society and Here what I'm saying is because if you build the the the institution Maybe it will be sustainable. It will be, you know, open National Society that practices the Working like a National Society that works, you know, so I think for me what I would like to see is that you know, I Have an example good examples in Somalia where maybe with something happens, you know Partner is you know, they have a kind of I walk in this area I cannot go here whatever but that problems can be sorted out when there is a, you know Well-practiced it complementarity. So maybe then here, you know, if you are not Able to do here work here, then maybe there's another partner who can do so let's come together and work as As you know as partners who can really compliment each other Thank you very much Yeah, just a compliment for SMCC process which started several years ago and The complementarity can be possible only if Good cooperation and good coordination between the movement partners who are present in the country Well established and this is like the main drive force from the other hand the focus should be on Capacity building but like on the branch development and volunteer management on the local level because it brings the systematic approach for the providing assistance in different in different emergency situations or armed conflicts and One of the most important scene. It's exactly and I would like to emphasize on this. This is called like the collaboration Platform like the cooperation and coordination between the all-movement partners who are present in one or in another country So if we can provide very good coordination and Communication it brings the A kind of the complementarity Pascal final word to you. Yeah, I think on the preparedness element you answered by saying you need to have those predefined Spaces to discuss and incorporate to the print the predefined Coordination mechanisms is actually a key element when even if you have other actors coming in if you know what you will take a Technical coordination leadership level this really greatly greatly helps in the preparedness But maybe in in terms of of going even further. I still find the word Organizational development very condescending. We would not say that for ourselves, right? If how would you say if I seriously needs to go through change? You're really a change man, right? I mean you will go with change management Transformation priorities even stayed longer in your mandate in order to bring those changes forward You would not say I need to do organizational development for the ICRC. I find this very much Old terminology. It's this is really the past if we really want to move now To localization and be true to it. We should speak different language, right? And and that's that's on the one hand and then we need to give equal value To the strengthening of local actors and the strengthening of the local action because one doesn't go without the other Obviously, it's not a second thought. It is about aligning on strategic planning It is about coming together to make sure that where there is a need for support Support can be provided from within the the family obviously But let's find a new terminology for it and as we have donors back donors in the room Dylan if we may You have heard from Calais. It's not about quick return on investment, right? I mean the first aid component for the Somali request in 36 years, right? You will not see it right away So the the value for money argument does not go with that We just have to think totally different timescale and a totally different way of thinking about investments that will that will be seeable in a very Distant future or maybe never or we might not be able to say when was the source of that strength We have a lot of very strong National societies Nobody's able to trace it back and I think this we need to take for ourselves Pascal great note to end on for those of you who didn't get the questions answered I apologize. We've run a few minutes over as well apologies for that But can I just ask you please to give a round of applause to the panel? Thank you very much and applause for you Alexander really well done and for the colleagues who did the report really. Thank you for that because I think what is interesting for me Yeah, let's go on. Yeah, please please. Yes Well done. I just What was interesting maybe to quick comment one is so much the concept of complementarity is not a fixed Concept and I think interesting not so much to look at the policies and the text but the practice and I've really think listening to you The practice is interesting. I will still keep with me One there was a lot of things but one thing elements which is about the systematic nature of what we do wrong But also the systematic nature what we do right and I think being able to capture that We have the chance to meet some of you a national society leaders and have a discussions about What maybe we do right and how systematic we are about it. Let's explore that that we fantastic in the meantime Thank you again very much. We are now for the one who still wants to continue discussions You go just up you follow our colleagues Jeremy you will show us the way and we have a nice glass of whatever you want And how long you want? Thank you very much. Have a nice evening and see you tomorrow. Bye