 Going live and it says you're live. Yay. All right So we should be live if we can from those of you who are watching if we can get a yay or nay on the audio Tyler You'll probably need to say some words This is me saying some words big words, I'm saying massive words like in Cyclopedia because that is definitely the biggest word. I know Cuz I'm a dumb dumb Well Peter always does yay with a question mark. It makes me it's just so much fun Yes, we can hear you okay So you might have noticed something a little bit different. We'll talk about this one's recorded as well But there is a video of Tyler because we can't get his voice in in video to sync up and half the time He was freezing so Yeah Apparently right now Crohn's not liking me Might be discord too, but you know We'll just for once not put all the blame on discord. Just just this once Hopefully next week we can get it to go back to normal. That'd be nice. Otherwise, we'll have to try something different It'll be good. We'll get it to work. We'll beat it into submission. I'm hoping that your usual MO holds true and You're back on Linux next week Nah It's for sure an open BSD problem because he has to use discord in the browser Yeah, I mean I did get an update for Chrome last night and I am running I mean the absolute bleeding edge of open BSD so very well could be it Yeah Yeah, that's what I told me. She switched to Windows You know, I mean Matt's Obviously always talking to you about how I need to come over to the glory that his windows So always just be like no, please. No, you'd probably get better video and audio quality and DOS I honestly think that We're almost ready to go Yes, which is like weird. Oh, right. Yeah, it does feel weird and speaking of that Let me make sure that there's nothing around the house that buddy's going to chew up. That's like value I totally forgot my mom left out and so I have her dog in here with me So I'm gonna go put her because she likes to like wine anytime buddy's around I'm gonna go put her up and make sure there's nothing for buddy to chew up destroy real quick. Okay. I'm back. Just a sec awesome It is a nice tech poster. I got that on Amazon of all places Wait, honestly, I was first checked that they have a lot of Linux stuff on Amazon It took forever to get here though That shipping time was like two months and weird I'm thinking about getting a different poster though. I've had that one for a while. It's about time for something new Wonder why he's not just using Firefox. I just you just try Firefox to see if that would work. This is clear You need a room set up to her. Let me do I'll do a room set up to her right now My computer's in front of me my bed's over there and there's a standing desk behind me. That's the room Oh Come on, man, you gotta show off all the junk in the room too. Well, there's some of that but I mean, it's not it's fairly clean But cleanish Love my room. You walk into it and you're like, oh, there's not much in here. It's pretty clean I can show you the dirty. Just give me time. I'll show you the dirty. It's not too bad. It's been worse Mostly cuz stuff gets shoved in this room Oh, yeah, uh to answer Rick before we actually start recording Um, I am going to do the rest stream today that my web came and everything works fine on my end It's just not through discord at all yeah Like I said, like I said, we'll have to figure out something for next week because we want we don't want to do a video podcast Just half the podcast crew That'd be bad Yeah, but we'll do with it for one week of your Is my bed open? Oh, I do like Peter's question Yeah, please tell me it's open source. Come on, man. It came from overstock. That's all I bought all I know Unacceptable come on not buying Foss bedding. What are you doing? Do you even care? Come on. Let's sit here. Let's go ahead and get started. I think We can get this done So I'm gonna go you're ready to go Yep, have you done a test on audacity make sure it works Yep, okay. Good. I'm gonna hit record in audacity then. I'm gonna hit record In obs then and you can do the collapse whenever you want. This is gonna be interesting Yeah three two one Not bad for not being able to see you I suppose. Yeah Yeah At least on my end that was noticeably far apart like quite a week and we can try again if you want Uh, I have no idea whether or not it's gonna help but we can do it again. Let's let's just keep clapping until it We just spend the next half an hour three three two one like scary movie four or whatever Tim why is it always your three? I'll just land them up the way it is. It should be fine He says I mean we could make it really easy by having like Two like two words that we say that are back to back Like you say one and as soon as you're done saying one and I hear it I'll say two and then you can line it up that way I think the claps probably I'm used to the claps. They'll be okay Um I won't have to any video to line it up two anyways other than yours And I have to edit the video last week at all anyways. I just left the stream up Oh, probably next week. We can try jitzy again If you want we can try it um All right, it's not gonna hurt anything The transform for your video is gone anyways because I had to delete it. So we'll have to redo it anyway no matter what I All right, yep I'm gonna have to cough first. You know me just I'm always causing that work I'm the best friend that he never wants to talk to because guess what more problems It's all right Somebody would just settle on a distro. I'd probably be perfectly happy I have but you don't like the distro I've settled on I also don't I also don't believe you. I'm just I'm just gonna put that out there like like man, you're a good friend and you're a good, you know Podcast host, but you are shit at staying on something. I'm just No offense. Hey, you're like you're like me ages ago Um, you switch stuff wrong. You're not you switch stuff all the time If you're gonna stay on open bsd, then we'll we'll find a solution I mean, I well, there's really not there doesn't really have to be a solution because anytime I want to play games Um, I was I have the I have two nvme drives I can just swap out and instantly boot into windows with all my drivers and everything installed So next week if we start like it like let's just go ahead and get together early And if it's not gonna work out using open bsd that I could just swap the nvme drive So it'll take me like two minutes. Do you have a spare? Um, PCI slot in your computer I do not it's a mini itx board Oh, that sucks If as I was gonna say if you had a spare PCI you could get one of those Extension cards so you could have both of them in at the same time Yeah, but It's no go. Yeah, all right. Well, what can you do? All right, so I'm gonna go ahead and start us off Hey, everybody, welcome back to the next cast. I'm your host matt And I'm tyler All right, so if you're watching the video version of this after we're done recording You'll notice that something's a little bit different. There is no tyler on screen. Uh, he's on open bsd and uh, this court in a browser is garbage and actually more garbage than it is outside of the browser, which is Amazing considering that it's electron, right? Just putting that out. That's horrible So you if you're watching the video version, you're just gonna get my lovely face You won't get to see tyler at all today. We are Exploring options for next week. We should have some kind of solution for next week So that we can get back to normal. But anyways tyler I should say actually before we start we should say that this is the linux cast We talk about linuxy things in case the title didn't give it away. I'm just gonna you know say that tyler, what did you do this week in linux and open source? You should broaden it a little bit things. Oh, you're not a linux user anymore Yeah, yeah well, I've been happily using uh open bsd and Rising the crap out of my desktop and just trying to get everything sorted. Uh, I've Because I have the 6600 x t which is supported by open bsd Just on the current branch, which is essentially like the testing branch of Open bsd. I've had I'm getting used to the quirks of using the current branch the Well differences in Using open bsd and linux getting the most performance I can out of it And that's mainly what I've been up to and we're also going to do a rust learning livestream later on probably be watching some youtube videos and I've been told that I also need to use uh the rust official book as Like somewhere to start off at like definitely I've had like four people tell me that Do you have like a reason you're learning rust like something that you need to do in order to It has caused you to learn rust Or is it just for fun? No other than It's for fun and I've wanted to learn rust for a while Makes sense I thought maybe you were you had to pour something over and that's the reason why you decided to this Open bsd supports rust, right? I'm assuming and rust programs are awesome Well, I mean obviously they're awesome. Everything's written in rust, right? Just the way it is All right, so for me This week spelled the end of my gentoo experiment So ben and I spent another hour Probably like monday-ish trying to solve screen tearing in Uh in on gentoo and it didn't really matter what desktop environment I was using it I was still getting screen tearing and it turned out For a while there I got to solve because we installed the x11 Package because we just installed the x server when we installed So I got that x11 package and then I was able to Turn on tear free and use v-sync with pi com and it fixed it for about five minutes And then it came back And I'm no clue what use because there's there's so there's two tricks When you have screen tearing on linux, there's the Using v-sync with pi com Usually that takes about 80 percent of the screen tearing away And then there's the tear free option, which you can either use with x rander Or you can use in a file in the in etsy slash x11 whatever And I did both of those tricks normally I mean they never fail like those are the tricks that you have to do and they work This time they did not work Like it worked for about five minutes after we installed that x11 package and it just after that It kept tearing and I can't stand screen tearing like I just can't stand it Um, it absolutely drives me nuts It just takes me out of whatever I'm doing and causes me to rage in my head for about five minutes And then I have to go back and it when it tears again and it's a A cycle that I just can't seem to get out of so that's the end of gen 2 unfortunately I I've talked to several people now who have you know solutions and I tried a couple of them. They just didn't work Uh, they even one person even said hey use chrome Like I don't really want to go use chrome, but no, um Ben and I even Uninstalled the binary of firefox and then I compiled firefox from source hoping that that would work that did not work either So we've pretty much tried everything that can be tried in there and it's just not working so Yeah, gen 2 is uh going to be officially off my system sometime this week Slackware is going to be my next Long term review if I can get that installed so that'll be fun And the other thing that I did this week because I created an rsync script something that I've been wanting to do for ages Usually I just use the same rsync line over and over again. It's just you know dash av and then the two directories, right? But there's a flag for rsync called dash dash exclude and it's life changing because for for the last Two or three years since I've been using rsync to do my backups I just back up everything in the home directory and that means that every time I do a new backup folder I have a another copy of my music Another copy of my isos folder another copy of my steam games folder So I mean I have like gigabytes upon gigabytes of extra copies of all that stuff And now that I've decided to do this script. I've done done the dash dash exclude That means I don't back up the music. I don't back up the The the games folder or the isos folder. So it saves. I mean Backups are like really quick now, which makes me happy. So that was fun. This actually was a really simple script, so Oh, yeah, that was another thing that people told me to do is just use wayland And that's one thing I didn't try maybe I should have maybe I will before I wipe it out But I don't know whether or not I'd be able to do wayland and still do videos Because I've had so much problems with string capturing on wayland. So plus, you know It'd have to it would mean I'd have to install pipe wire So, uh, and we all we all know how pipe wire treats me just putting that out there Oh, yeah, anyways Yeah, that'd be worth your time Yeah, especially since I'm probably wouldn't sarcastical Yeah, I'm not gonna stick with gen 2 anyways. I don't think I've put so much time into it so far and Wasted a lot ben's time. So anyways It was it was an interesting experiment. I'm glad I did it. Um, I doubt that I would ever do it again So there you go You never know though, who knows maybe I'll put up another goal All right, so that is that's it for that section Let's go ahead and move on to the contact information. You can contact us via email at email at the linuxcast.org You can subscribe to all of our stuff and find the blog posts and all that stuff that at at the linuxcast.org You can support some patreon at patreon.com slash linuxcast You can subscribe to zany on youtube at youtube.com slash zany og All those links and stuff will be at the linuxcast.org slash contact And you can subscribe to the linuxcast at youtube.com slash linuxcast We did go over 10,000 subscribers a few days ago So that was pretty good. I'm Still blown away by that, but It's also nuts. It seems once you hit 10,000 your your subscribers just keep going. I thought we'd just stop It was a little weird. Um, I didn't expect it to still keep going. Um, which is I'm obviously stupid But it was one of those things anyways, so Thanks everybody who has subscribed if you haven't already Uh youtube.com slash linuxcast if you just want the audio version. Oh, I should I should actually say this So a few weeks ago I did a video called state of the linuxcast where I was talking about I didn't really know what to do with the podcast And for ages and ages what I would do is we'd stream on thursdays I'd put it private towards the end of the day I would then edit the video the youtube channel would get the video on fridays the patrons would get it a day early And it was a conglomerated mess It was just not Great like it wasn't a process it took a lot of time and it definitely wasn't really something that I thought was worth it simply because I I didn't really know what people were getting out of it So what I've decided to do and you'll have noticed this because I've already done it for a week is that the Stream that we do on thursdays will stay up. It'll stay live. That'll be the version of the podcast that youtube gets Towards the end of the evening. I will put time stamps in so if people want to skip around to The certain points of the podcast that they can do that I usually do that around seven o'clock eastern time It takes me a little while to get back to my desk and actually do that So if you want to watch the podcast on youtube, that's what you'll end up doing. You'll watch the live stream uh The recorded version of the live stream and you'll have time stamps and stuff in order to move around Patrons will get the audio version a day early if you want to just subscribe to the audio version That stuff is available at the linuxcast.org and stuff. So um Yeah, that is uh That that's what's happening with the podcast I doubt that i'll change it from now on it worked really well last week. Hopefully it'll work well this week as well So uh moving on to the news tyler. What is your news this week? My news is about shot cut. Um, for those who are like new to the fos space, there's pretty much two good Fos video editors. There's kade live and shot cut and In my personal opinion shot cut has been the lesser of the two for quite a while and it's recently gotten a lot better and much much more competitive With with kaden live and This last update is kind of just an example of how good it's getting Not only are they using a newer version of ffmpeg. There's a if you go through the article There's quite a few different things about it that they've improved in including It's improved audio and video synchronization And there's there's a lot of just like quality of life improvements and sensible features that have been added and if you Want to go more they they do have obviously like the big change log that you can go see and it's Overall a pretty exciting release and i'm just i'm glad to see that Both of the video editors in the fos space are getting Just not A little better a lot better, which is Really good Don't think that you could question that. Yeah, I I think I used shot cut exactly one time I didn't really care for it, but maybe it's time to try that again because Kaden live does this weird thing where when I try to cut something It says i'm dragging the timeline, which i'm actually not so and it dings at me which you know bothers me but I always just go back to it because it's the most full featured thing Um everyone says good things about that um The olive but that thing's like perpetually and out like it's perpetually an alpha Right, it's it's never moved beyond alpha software and like apparently you can tell like it's like and I mean i'm not like poo pooing that because like the it's like one dude, right? Like I can understand why it hasn't moved past alpha, but if you're relying on something you can't have It crash all the time so Yeah, yeah And no matter what because it's pretty much kaden lives code base like essentially it's It shares a lot of the same code base as kaden live It suffers from pretty much all of the things that kaden lives suffers from and kaden live has Uh, obviously much larger development like You know time and power going behind it. So Why wouldn't you choose kaden live? I mean they all have to use that one I don't know what the toolkit is called But there's like that one toolkit that enables video editing on linux that pretty much all the editors pretty much have to use I don't remember what it's called though All right, so my news of the week neither do I yeah, I don't know I could just be making it up who the hell knows The My news of the week is that ubuntu pro settings have been pulled from ubuntu 20 out of 4 so I just really wanted to talk about this is that When this first came out like a few weeks or probably a couple months ago now There was there's in the software and updates sitting. There was an ubuntu pro like tab or whatever in desktop ubuntu And people kind of freaked out about it like oh is ubuntu is canonical going to start charging for ubuntu And I mean it was kind of as as usual with the linux community. It was blown out of proportion, but Apparently it was a big enough of a scandal that canonical has not pulled that out But as far as I know It was not actually ever going to be for consumers. It was a kind of like a subscription service for businesses for support But people freaked people out because it was in the consumer version or whatever If there's such thing as this consumer version of ubuntu um I just find it interesting that uh any Mention of charging for a distro just freaks people the fuck out Like seriously if they even like hint at saying you want to we're gonna charge for support or something People just I mean throw their arms up and like oh my god. What's happening the world is ending. You know what I mean? Yeah, which is very weird like what's the problem with them Offering a pro for like even if it's a monthly subscription Pro version like you just get I don't know like three dumb ass extra features. What's the problem? Like you're not going to pay for it. Well, yeah As long as you're not being forced to pay for it, right? Like if the free version of ubuntu gone, you know went away Then maybe there would be something to be upset about but that was never going to be this This was just going to be like something that was buried in the settings panel that perhaps you could subscribe to If it was even meant for you, which it probably wasn't Uh for extra support or something like if something went wrong um Well, I mean like I guess some people look at canonical and think that they're Much like they just don't give them any credit like look, I don't I don't hold canonical in very high regard But I also don't think that they're so dumb that they're going to take basic linux features and put a paywall in front of them Like they're not that dumb Whatever that whatever they offer however, you know Nifty it is it's still not something that's going to be basic to using linux Okay, so canonical knows this one true fact is that Proportionally not a soul uses ubuntu desktop Like hardly I mean compared to the people who use it on server The the desktop market is so utterly puny it wouldn't even pay to Offer this service like to employ the people who would have to support it Full time to help the four people who would ever use it Doesn't make sense. That's the reason why it was when I saw this I didn't even include it in like a news item or something because I was like there's no way In hell that they would ever do this for the consumer market. This is for people in the enterprise market that use ubuntu terminals or maybe iot stuff or servers or whatever They just happened to also use the the the desktop as what that was for There's just no way That they'd ever do it for the the miniscule amount of people who actually use ubuntu in compared. I mean There are probably millions of people who use ubuntu or whatever But the vast majority of them You know I should say in comparison to the number of people who use the server Compared to the number of people who use windows It's just so small it wouldn't even be worthwhile Well, and also I guarantee you like it would be a massive shock to find out that canonical didn't have One community manager on payroll And if you think that that community manager hasn't made it abundantly clear that trying to sell stuff to their target desktop audience is Not necessarily not smart, but not going to work is insane everybody knows the ubuntu community if The ubuntu community consists of people who are not accepting of them Monetizing the desktop in any way so Why would you try to add? Like they've tried monetizing before it has always Bit them in the ass when they try and monetize the desktop Oh people people freaked the fuck out when they had the amazon Um icon in the dock like when when they put that which is basically it was all it was was a link to amazon website That correlated with their their affiliate link, right? That's all that all the ever was nobody ever had to use it They didn't force you to keep it like if that had been microsoft you wouldn't be able to delete the icon And it would have launched that boot when they included Yeah, like when they included the amazon like search it like search results In the desktop like search like when you would search for applications and files and stuff It would also bring up amazon search results I remember people claiming that that was outright spyware because everything that you typed on the desktop would be sent to amazon servers and it's like Look, I mean I'm not going to say that that's what I would want as a desktop, but And I don't want my desktop to just give me amazon search results like let me make that clear, but also at the same time like it's not Do you really think that like amazon would care to know like Amazon doesn't sell messed up stuff. So if you have like if you're searching for messed up stuff on your computer there's really it's really hard to like monetize a Weird like file name. It's just it's hard to sell you stuff based off of obscure file names. I don't I don't understand the spyware behind it But I mean, that's a clear example of their community Not every every way that amazon or amazon canonical goes about monetizing their desktop fails So I don't I don't assume like I don't get the fear of okay They're about to monetize everything or give us a pro version and Make us pay like No, it's they're they pay people to understand what the people in the community want At least I hope to god they do Yeah I don't know. Yeah, it seems like every decision canonical makes stirs up and up or some kind I mean they could think they tomorrow they could announce that their new colors are yellow and pink And people would freak the fuck out. I mean It would just be one of those things they announced that they cured cancer It would be terrible the community would go insane Yeah, like the cure for cancer would be definitely like There would be a wrapped up in a conspiracy It would just the the community doesn't accept anything that canonical does Or even if they do accept it, it's at first with a whole bunch of like You know a really intense magnifying glass on it. They have to inspect it Very heavily before the community is okay with anything Yeah Um or get it out there rip off the band-aid and hope that the news cycle Moves on to something different really fast Um, they've done that a couple times too. Look look when they just announced That they were going to get rid of 32 bit library support In ibuntu like not not even get rid of it just not included by default like you can still download it People freaked out because while steam still uses 32 bits. So All of a sudden canonical became anti gaming, you know Like yeah, personally, I don't think ibuntu gives a crap about gaming. I mean They make all of their money in the server. So they make no money from gamers So, I mean, there's a reason why Valve didn't choose ibuntu for the steam deck Like because they don't they don't care about gaming not that I'm saying like the arch people care about gaming but uh They chose archers because you know, they can do whatever hell they want whether they don't have to worry about some corporate overlord saying hey We want some attention or something. You know, well, I mean it's It's the nostalgia that keeps people believing that ubuntu cares about the linux desktop like That's how ubuntu and canonical started was making linux desktop relevant a thing something that you could actually use but As they become corporate their business everything that they do revolves around the server And so there's no interest in them to make the desktop user experience better Improve it. So we're left with the community projects like arch or others that are based off of ubuntu or you know, something else Those end up being the ones that are doing the gaming stuff that Really innovating on the desktop side because Genuinely, there's not a corporate interest on the server side where you that's where you dedicate all your resources The community wants what the community wants so they work on what i'm surprised at is that canonical hasn't done what Uh red hat did what red hat did was they split their desktop team off and created fedora You know and all fedora cares about is the desktop. That's what they do They create a desktop version of linux that is based on red hat, right? And it tests red hat stuff and stuff like that. I'm surprised that ubuntu hasn't done something similar to that Now i'm not saying that they'd say come out with something totally new But it always feels like the desktop team at canonical is the team that gets the worst offices and you know, they have their their carpet is threat threat bear and You know, they get no attention like like they get notified of meetings But the time is always wrong. So they show up like, you know, half an hour late, you know Because they're using like an old version of caldalfe or something. Yeah, you know, it just feels like they're not supported I mean, it's probably not true But it feels that way sometimes All right Let's go ahead. I mean quite often. Yeah, like a lot Like you kind of feel bad for them sometimes like they've gone like You can't get more linuxy people than the last two guys who have led that team like the um I can't remember his first name is will I don't remember what his last name is But he was the the desktop lead before martin wimp wimpress was and then martin wimpress was there And they were there they both worked at canonical for a long time And uh, they went they've moved through desktop leads now really fast over the last like three or four years Now some of that is that they were probably offered better jobs, but um, it makes you wonder No, all right, and let's go ahead and move on to the main topic Now this is a little bit of a weird main topic because it can be taken two ways So the the question that I I have posed here is does linux need app parity? So we could take this to the point of does linux need The same apps as windows has we could talk about that Or or even and or we could talk about instead Open source software needing feature parity. So things like does does gimp need to have the same functionality doesn't need to work Maybe not the same but have the same features as photoshop things like that. So Uh, let's start off with the first way In order to be successful tyler, do you think That linux needs absolute app app parity between linux and windows? To answer that question, I kind of have to ask another by app parity Do you mean linux needs the exact same apps on all platforms? That's that's what I was you could take it either way It could be like adobe needs to be on both platforms You know microsoft's office needs to be on both platforms things like that or we could take it as The open source alternatives need to be feature parity like they have to have the same features It doesn't answer whichever one you like to be considered a Financial or a commercial success? Yes It does because that's when that's when in the I would say computers computer space the tech space you end up being a success Like mac wasn't really a success until it had the Big software for a microsoft and then it started to take off and in you know max own own specific areas it Shined compared to windows and it could actually compete but Uh commercially, I would say yes If you want to consider linux a success commercially Yes, it needs adobe software. It needs all of it zoom all all of it has to work Yeah, I think I'm there with you sort of I think I'm more lean on Like I don't I don't think that in order to be a quote unquote success That linux needs adobe software. I don't think that that's an absolute must have What is a must have if we can't have that which we're never going to get it Is we need to have open source software that is equal to or better than what adobe offers So gimp needs to get to the point where if someone is switching to linux and has to switch them to gimp They can then do all the stuff that they could do In gimp that they could do in photoshop and at the point We're at right now you can't say that like you can't tell me No matter how good gimp has gotten over the years that it's as good as photoshop right now in terms of feature parity You know same thing with like kaden live. We were talking about kaden live earlier kaden live is a fantastic video editor It has its problems obviously, but it's definitely very good But if you compare that to something like premiere or Whatever the one apple has I always forget what that's called Logic pro, maybe I don't know what it's called final cut. That's it final cut. Um, but If you compare kaden live to those They're not there's not really a comparison there because those are obviously better Um, now I think I think of all of the open soft open source software that we would compare in this way kaden live probably comes the closest to being feature My feature complete compared to those other like mainstream offerings But we don't have the same thing for You know like gimp or Uh, you know like for example audition like adobe audition is a fantastic editor for audio And it's what I used to use And then when I came to linux, I had to switch to audacity and if you look at audacity compared to uh Audition they're not even close to being as good in terms of Ui in terms of features and stuff like that now it doesn't mean audacity is bad It just means that if you look at if you look at them You can tell that there's some clunkiness in audacity that there's it's not really there in audition And it's the same thing with like if you look at something like, uh Illustrate or something like that and stuff like we don't really have a piece of software that does a good job for like, um Oh, why can I never remember the names of adobe's products for whatever reason the one that does graphics animations the, um After effects that's what it's called like we don't have a really good one that does after effects Now you can use you can use blender and blender is really good But it's also complicated as fucking not really meant for that. It's meant for 3d model It feels like it's meant for 3d modeling, but it blender does so much stuff You know, it's just hard to do it and That's one of the places where they've taken the feature by feature thing and kind of like crammed it all into like one application which really has always bothered me but um That's that's where I come down on this whole thing is that I don't think We need those applications to be successful But we do need applications that can compete with them And that's has been by far the longest and hardest salute problem We've had to solve on linux for the last 30 years Well, but I mean if we're gonna be completely honest You have you have to define your like what is your definition of success? like Well, yeah, that means that's that's obviously something that would have to talk about right, but the I mean I have another topic in the folder like do we even want linux to be mainstream? The the real question I would answer would ask back then it is um, well, I mean All right, so I'll just go ahead and answer it then I don't What is success for linux? I don't know um Some people are going to tell you that they want and see like that's the thing No, go ahead. I was like Some people will tell you that it's market share like that they'd want to to have Reasonable market share compared to windows and I think that's just silly. I don't think that you I mean First of all, I don't know that we would want that many people using linux because then it becomes more of a target, but also It's unrealistic because it's just never going to happen but more I think I think for me success becomes when other Like corporate entities are interested in developing for linux. So when uh someone other than steam Our valve has decided that gaming is important on linux So like let's just say epic decided they wanted to spring their stuff back to the linux officially other game developers, uh, maybe uh Like microsoft or something well, but see by that definition Or by what you're saying linux to be successful must become mainstream because the only way for Corporate entities to ever take an interest in developing for linux that it must have the user base to support that so Yeah, like essentially your your definition of success is Well commercial success it has to be commercially viable and When that's when that is Your definition of success the only way is To for linux to be successful is for it to become mainstream and if the idea of it going mainstream Is something that you don't like then we kind of have to change our definition of success because At that point the linux is already successful. I mean if If it if you can't make the definition of success be commercially viable or if that doesn't appeal to you That's not actually the type of success that you want for linux Then I think the only other version of success would be that it's usable and it continues to be usable And that's exactly what linux is doing. It's gotten Only better at it. Yeah See the thing the thing is is that When you look at markets and stuff like that the we're going to get into the problem with capitalism with with mat But the problem with capitalism sometimes is that companies are always always looking for huge markets But the problem is is that linux is a huge market like even if you just look at the the the desktop usage like You can millions of people use the linux desktop millions people around the world Use the linux desktop. Is it the billion people that use windows? No Like compared to windows. It's a minuscule amount, but it's only when you make that comparison where that you think like And I understand That companies like microsoft companies like apple want to always invest in markets where billions of people are going to be using their products But just because it's a it's millions of people doesn't make it any It's still a good size a number of people, right? So We're never going to get to the point where there's a billion people using linux I mean not regular linux like we easily could We easily could the problem with that is is For us to get to the point where we have that many users Essentially we have to become a market When you say market the problem is is in the open source fos community. We describe markets as users And to a corporate entity users means shit users doesn't mean anything Facebook might tout their users publicly, but inside of their boardrooms Users don't matter How much are we selling? How much money advertisements are we giving them? Yeah, and the one thing we know about the the linux community and the linux users and fos community in general Is that they don't spend money? Like they don't they don't spend any money Yeah, they're at the at the very best They're lenient with the amount of money they spend. Yeah, they might give over some Especially if you're doing a really good job Which is something that a corporate entity doesn't want like that's too much of a risk Yeah, like as a corporate entity you want You kind of want people to essentially buy and then if they don't like it, you know, uh It's okay Like, you know take their losses and move on and that is not the fos community Like if you don't if you're asking money for something and what you provide is not Excellent quality. No one's purchasing it after the first five people It gets dead well the The problem with my argument is not that there's not millions of people using linux, which there are It's that those millions of people aren't interested in For the most part and generally Spending a ton of money on what would essentially be proprietary software You know, it most people most people who use linux on the desktop To varying degrees or more interested in false software and no company on the planet is going to ever At least go from making billions of dollars, you know In in a certain way to entering a market where they have no capability of earning hardly any money they They're not going to enter into a market where the The norm is to give away whatever they create for free And when you like we were just talking about it with a boon to like anytime anybody mentions paying for a boon to people freak out It would be the same thing with literally anything else. They would have the The the companies have one expectation of making a product and then Charging people for it whether it's through a software as a service or you know, bang a $70 video game, you know what I mean with The false community on the other side We have an expect expectation that the most of the stuff that's free and open source is going to be free of charge And that's I mean every every time we talk about money on the podcast the views just go Tank because people don't want to talk about this like like it's an old thing that we've beat up Many many times it's a dead horse at this point But it's it's blatantly the truth, right? It's that you know in order for Companies that Make proprietary software to come to linux. They're not only has to be people which we have we have people We have We have enough people that would probably make some companies at least maybe not the big ones But at least some of them at least be interested in bringing their software here The problem is that we have nobody who's actually willing to pay for that software because either it's proprietary or because they're stingy, right? So That's where I bring back to my original argument is that in order for There to be more success. I'm not talking about fully mainstream success In order for more and more people to actually be interested in using the linux desktop There has to be Feature parity with inside of the fosst apps that are already here because those fosst apps have no expectation of ever being profitable Right gimp It doesn't really care They're not in it for the money They're not in it for I mean They would like to make enough money to pay their developers and that's about it And you can do that from donations and you know corporate sponsors and stuff like that Same thing with like audacity, which is not no longer A good you know a good example because they're owned by a corporation now, but uh things like Firefox even right Allowing These applications to bring up the features to the point where we can honestly say that firefox or audacity Or whatever, you know element even you know element is you know Feature complete it's not maybe not feature complete but feature parity to whatever they're competing against if we can get to that point Then we can see some measure of success however you measure success more people using linux well, I mean that's kind of the thing like Linux I don't think needs more people using it. I I genuinely don't because that's one of the problems With linux is there's so many people coming over to use linux Mainly because it's getting to a point where It rivals what they used to use in what like with the software that it'll run and Linux like to bring it back to the title like does linux need app parity? Yes, it does if you want it to compete against The other os's For some reason whatever that reason is But honestly no it doesn't need app parity the that's kind of the last thing that it needs Linux is one of those things where it's a It's not for everybody Because it doesn't run every piece of software and it doesn't have the money behind it Nor do the people that run linux wanted to have the money behind it Like windows or mac does because let's be honest when you have that much money behind something People get pretty crooked people will do some pretty messed up and really nasty and Disingenuine or distasteful stuff Just to make more money and Sadly, I don't think any of that interest anybody in this community, which I actually don't know why I said sadly That's not really a bad thing But when you want it to compete you're not ever going to do that because You don't bring in any of the interest You don't your goals are not aligned with what you think you want like you don't You don't really want the corporate interest. You don't really want All of the people who make the software that you think it like to me the craziest idea is We need to get the same software So that more people will come over and use what we use But the people who make the software that we would like to have over here so that we can draw in more people is made made by people that we hate like Nobody here in this community thinks adobe is a great company No one here thinks microsoft, you know is the most genuine giving entity out there They're practically, you know a good giving god like no come on. No one believes that I mean, we've already said though that we don't think that that's That adobe or microsoft are ever going to bring things to That's why we said or at least why I said That having feature parity in the open source apps that exist is the more apt way to go But well, but that also to to be able to get that type of feature parity We need to be able to pay the the the high end very intelligent devs We have to be able to pay them for that time because I mean the it's not that we don't have very talented devs here on linux like that would be an erroneous statement We obviously do but we're getting their spare time We're we're getting their downtime So for us to be able to compete and have that type of feature parity We have to be able to pay them Which in of itself is a it's a I mean, it's a paradox. You'll never be able to get it Yeah well, I mean They've made strives towards it obviously, but I mean you're right that it's not ever going to happen fast um Well, see the problem is is it won't ever happen because While while the proprietary companies however much we disagree or don't like them They can they if they are able to pay The talented devs that we get spare time from Pay them for a majority of their time to develop their software The it will never get to a point where we will catch up or have feature parity with them It will never happen because during the day the same devs that are trying to get Whatever they're working on during the day working on here It like it in their spare time it just it can't happen. It never will and yeah, so I just I just kind of I disagree with you because I'm not saying like it's going to happen for every single application that we have it's not going to happen for You know gimp create a firefox everything But we've seen that it can happen with some things like there's a reason why OBS, which is open source has taken over the world in terms of streaming That is now the thing and it's open source, right? So it has happened I mean maybe you would just consider that the exception to the rule But there's other options other things out there like blender is another example of things something that is Yeah, but you're talking about fos software like it's all that's already fos Yeah, we don't we don't need the feature parity there, right? I know but the reason why it's successful is because it had competitors that then beat out because it was better You know and it started out as fos, right? Yeah, so the the point is is that you writing off every other piece of fos software saying that it can never be as good as Photoshop is just I mean it's defeatist, right and I'm not saying that it's It's not defeatist like because here like your example of OBS is a good example But here's the problem name the competitor that OBS was against X split Precisely Did you ever try to use X split? Well, no, but I mean I'm just saying that it does have it did have competitors There's also the thing from black magic that a lot of people still use Um, I'm not sure what it's calling but also that costs a ton of money Well, I'm sure I'm As if the the applications from fire are from adobe don't also cost a lot of money Just because the competitors are expensive doesn't really Make people not use them, you know But no, but see the thing is is X split hasn't done Well, it's as far as I know X split is still active like as far as I know I don't know anyone who uses them, but they're still active But the reason they can't compete is because they're not innovating Like at at all like at all The come like the the programs that you want feature parody with like Gimp and photoshop is a great example because gimp is fantastic Like it I would not pay for photoshop because I there's a lot of stuff that photoshop does that I don't need And it's way overborn for me But that being said Gimp and photoshop will never be feature parodied because photoshop is the innovator Same same thing with adobe premiere and Final cut or da Vinci resolve all three of those are Innovators in their own right to da Vinci resolve even though da Vinci resolve premiere final cut are all video editors Da Vinci resolve innovates constantly on color grading. They are Literally the best and they constantly they're constantly innovating same with final final cut Premiere is actually falling behind because they're only getting pretty much worse as it goes on So the the problem is is like you're there will always be competitors in the open source versus commercial market That the commercial ones will as long as they continue innovating and paying these developers the proper amount like a good example is adobe had We all know that like it's not really hard to find their positions and stuff that they've hired for in the past They're not, you know Taking in the the bad Developers they they definitely are paying good money and have good stuff exploit I don't know that exploits even I don't even know if they ever hired for developers having no idea so I mean, that's really the thing like the innovators in the space. It's going to be pretty much impossible to ever compete with them because They're able to pay for the top notch developers I understand that Asking him to be as good as Photoshop tomorrow is unrealistic and that it may never catch up but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's something that shouldn't be strived for and It doesn't even necessarily mean that they had to be 100% always on equal ground like the minute Photoshop brings out a feature again passed to have it, right? That's just not really what I'm saying. What I'm more saying is that By saying well, it's never going to happen. So we shouldn't do it You know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me like of course we Well, no If if we had the attitude of if like we can't win therefore we shouldn't play You know, the Detroit Lions would never play football I would say if that was the attitude we had we wouldn't have like half the NFL because half of the NFL couldn't play It's the same thing here is is that we shouldn't that shouldn't be the the the mentality that we should take and I also don't think that It it doesn't well, so essentially what you're saying is it's not that we should have app parody But we should have good false applications like that because with when you're saying feature parody You mean we're going to have everything that the commercial offerings have and blender is a good example of Blender is not an industry standard even though plenty of people would have you believe it is It is not an industry standard It does do pretty much like you can do insane things with blender It is in mind blowing what you can do with blender and there are plenty of jobs out there that you can get that utilize blender That being said blender does not compete in the commercial market very well and Even though it doesn't compete in the commercial market very well That doesn't mean that a ton of people don't use it and it's massively been there is Plenty of stuff in game development that I've that I've done over the course of my life that I just would have never even had the opportunity to learn about because I couldn't spend five thousand dollars on Maya or You know, whatever other alternatives there are So like to to me. I think what you're saying is we just need really really high quality false applications Well that and the mentality I think we need the mentality of that We should strive for some sort of feature parity. Maybe not one to one, but Not being afraid to when photoshop does something good bring it in to get you know I think that they do do that and I think that it's all about motivation if they have that motivation to You know do this and then then it will always continually get better and Yes, you're never going one of the reasons why obs is actually not a very good Example of this is because It became the mainstream so fast. It never really like People use obs they don't give a crap that it's open source You know what I mean? and The the false aspect of it doesn't really matter to the massive majority of people who use it They don't use it because it's open source. They use it because it's the thing to use You know, it's it's not only it's free like as in you don't have to pay for it But also it's really really freaking good And unless it screws me over which it does about half the time, right But I think that one of the reasons why it was so successful is because you're right You're right in that the competitors weren't all that big to begin with And the problem we have with things like gimp and audacity and things like that is that the the Companies and software that they're competing against are so entrenched Into the workflow of so many millions of people It would be hard and impossible to Get a toe hold into it even if they managed to reach feature parity And I don't That's why I don't think that that should be the goal. I think instead it should be What okay, I think at parity or feature parity should be The goal but with kind of in a realistic way and that is more of a of a motivating factor You know, I mean it's try to Tip away to the point where you know you have some success. It doesn't have to be all the success That's one of the problems with like everything is that and when you reach some success You always have to reach for the next level on the next level the the you know You always have to keep getting bigger and that's you know, so I think that that's one of the One of the areas where maybe Things like gimp could be okay is that you know they could be happy with you know a couple million users You know, they don't have to continue to you know, as long as they can pay their bills They don't have a capital capitalistic Idea of we have to make billions of dollars. They just have to be good, you know Let's pay let's make sure we can pay those good developers and then move on You know, we don't have to it's a it's a nonprofit organization. You know and Just move on that way All right. I think we've kind of beat the crap out of that topic. Um It's interesting that we disagree there for a while. We don't we don't disagree very often But anyways, so this it is the time of the week Tyler where we explore things and because we're too lazy or Not creative enough. We've decided to name this section the thingy of the week. So Tyler, what is your thingy of the week? Uh, my thingy of the week is a fan I mean, this is genuinely one of the the most chef's kiss beautiful patches. I have ever felt it is Amazing, uh, if you like running DWM and you're like me and you also like running picon with rounded corners because you know Why not you just balling like that man? DWM Exactly, you know, you know, you just want that you're the kind of guy who would put spinners on a 1995 chevrolet Beretta, aren't you? You're just that kind of guy I I will not dignify that with a response because you already know the answer DWM, uh, has a or I found this I believe it's just completely custom like Some dude on the internet hand wrote, uh, this nice little patch, uh that you can't really As far as I know, it's not really put anywhere like officially But uh in the show notes, I did leave a link to the specific github patch Like if you click on this, you'll just download the patch Or load it up in your web browser and you can take a look over it But this patch here adds rounded corners just like in pycom, but to dwm itself and That means you'll get rounded corners without pycom You don't have to use pycom to get rounded corners or a specific compositor Which is awesome. And then if you're using a composter like pycom and using the rounded corners I can't remember what issue I was having but there was some weird issue with rounded corners I think what it was was like When, uh, like I had transparency or some Gaussian blur or something like that applied in the Pycom config, I would get the little squares even though the corners were rounded I would get the complete frame of the window with like the Color of the background or whatever like that behind it and like it was noticeable I could see it with this patch. It got rid of that which is awesome Oh, that's too bad. I don't use dwm anymore. I could try this You know, it's it's all right. You'll come back to the to the best window manager Okay, so just take time the thing is is when I was doing gentoo I installed and patched up dwm in order to use it because my i3 system was broken Because that my config is meant for i3 gaps not regular i3 and the the thing is is that Like there's some things about dwm that I really do miss like the the look of dwm is really cool I really like it. I like the way that it's configured But it does not handle Workspaces very well on multiple monitors and I can't get past it man Like I immediately miss the ability to use a dedicated Keybinding to go to a workspace on this monitor Like in order to switch to a workspace on this monitor when you're on focused on monitor one It's a two process, you know a two key binding process and it's it just Not for me not anymore Like I'm there's like there's things about dwm that I miss but man i3 is good So good Anyway, so my app of the week is not actually an application. Well, I mean it has an application It she knows again My is mulvad vpn now I know what you're saying A youtuber talking about a vpn I'm gonna stop listening now And but this is not a sponsored advertisement Nobody sponsors me the the point is I was looking for a vpn and I put a call out in discord and on twitter asking for Options because I was gonna go with pia because pia offers three years of service for like 80 bucks And that's like Holy crap. That's really cheap, right? Like the problem is is when I see when you see a price that cheap you wonder Am I gonna get what I pay for? Is this is this telling you it's a vpn, but it's not actually a vpn You know, so I was worried about that's the reason why I asked for suggestions and a couple people recommended mulvad So I gave mulvad a thing now. It's not as cheap. It's five dollars a month or five dollars and fifty cents a month I just bought a year and It was really simple to set up it uses wire guard or open vpn. You have the option and it just Works well, you know even even in one of the things that I always had a problem with with like when I use Pia in in the past all their instructions are for a boon to Right, uh, and you can get it to work. You can work on and there's and they're hard coded Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, you can you can get it to work and like arch or whatever But it doesn't it's not you can tell that it was meant for a boon to This I didn't have any problems with this at all. Um, you did I just downloaded the app from the aur? watched it I put in my account number and it loads It's there. Uh, I I've been using like a us A observer from britain and speed was really good like Basically the same speed that I always get obviously the latency was a lot worse, but That's gonna happen. So that's just the way it works. Uh, so uh, I'm So far, I'm very happy with it Hopefully I don't get screwed over in like six months from now not like it anymore because I did pay for a whole year But it's just It was easier to pay for a year Simply because like my credit card does not allow by default international charges Like I have that turned off so that I don't you know for security reasons So I had to turn that off in order to get this to go through I was like, I don't want to have to do this every month. So I just bought a year and then I can turn the Deny international charges off again. Uh, so I don't have to worry about that. So anyways, that is um Um That is the thinking of the week now coming up next week. I don't actually know what we're going to be talking about Tyler, do you have You have one in here about schools becoming more foster oriented. So we're gonna be talking about schools and foster software Uh, another one of those Topics that probably is not gonna be for everybody, but it should be very interesting So that is it for us coming up this week before I go. I'd like to take them and think my current patrons Robert Sid Devon Patrick Fred Kramer Megalyn Jackson a tool steve a sub burger linux garrick samuel michael artson or j-dog Carver dated jamey shon odin martin e andy ross merit camp josh early peter a crucible dark minutes six primus and p.m If you'd like to support the channel on patreon, you can do so at patreon.com slash linux cast I really truly do appreciate everyone who supports me on patreon and on youtube And uh, whether even if it's not monetarily if you just subscribe I really truly do appreciate everybody who's done that if you want to subscribe to zany's channel youtube.com slash zanyo g he does have a patreon You'll have to find that link wherever he has that because I don't have it memorized. I'm sorry for that I'm don't don't don't forget don't forget to pimp out the store All right, there's links to the store and stuff in the video description So there's there is a store there. We should Tyler we should really look into putting some more stuff up there, shouldn't we? Yeah, we should definitely do that Anyways, that that is it for the linux cast. We'll be back next week We record this live every thursday at romp 3 o'clock p.m. Eastern time So if you'd like to watch live and be in the chat, you can do so. We don't Pay attention much attention to the chat. Unfortunately. Sorry guys. Hello chat So If we got distracted by the chat the the recording would be six hours long We just sit here and chat maybe maybe that's something we do someday But uh as it is right now. So anyways, uh, thanks for watching. We'll see you next week boy