 So today is March 29th. This is the hopefully last meeting of the public safety committee and working group to review the recommendations in the CNA report. It's 505. So the first item on the agenda is the agenda. Is there a motion to adopt the agenda. So moved. Second that all those in favor, they say aye. Aye. We have an agenda. The second item on the agenda is the approval of the public safety committee minutes for March 22nd. So right. Did you have a chance to look at them. I just did. And this isn't really a minute thing, but just because this is where we're keeping our thing is in the up to date spreadsheet. I'm not seeing the committee notes on for section four, five, six and seven. I, I'm, I noticed that as well. Don't know what. And I went back to Zariah, the one that you had sent. Last week as the most up to date. And I didn't see them there either. I don't know. I should have flagged that. Okay. So in what I sent you. What do we take notes over last time six and seven. Six seven and nine. Six seven and nine. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you took on not on sevens right. I think most of them were. I mean, you came up with something that basically talked about the, the need for focus on issues until staffing was a better place with staffing. And section four, was that the day where I was gone? So. That was when that was Jane, Jane did for, and she sent that to you. Because I remember her sending that Jerry because she copied literally right after. Yeah, do you remember that as well. So, if we can. Because we did three. She did threes that those are her notes on this right here that on the thing that I'm looking at myself as one that's just spreadsheet. As of 322. Section three. Yes. So Raya, did you miss that one did she do section three because that looks like her notes not yours. Yeah, I think three and four I thought were the same. Oh, maybe they weren't. I'm trying to remember the difference between reading something and talking about it is turns out that that clear. So I do have the ones from last time where we did seven. And I guess that's it because we didn't take notes on nine. So I'll just send those two Jared sorry for the confusion. Do you know what happened to four and five. Yeah, and six is missing to which we did the time before right. I could go back on board docs and look at our minutes from those. All right, so when we so after Jared if we have some time if you have any time after we've adjourned tonight. Let's see that because I've got to integrate that into the report. And I sort of need the I need those committee want to make sure they're all there. I, yeah. Because that's that's sort of part of the final work product so on. All right so we've got, I know we did seven. So that's seven I see that I have them. And just so we know we didn't actually review line 116 and 117 is what I put in the lines 116 and lines 117. But other than that we've got notes on section seven. Okay. Line 115 and lines. Okay, all right. So, where we were for the last at the last meeting was in my, in my earnest attempt to finish section nine. Hi Milo. In our in our in my earnest attempt to finish section nine at that meeting. There were, there were five recommendations. And I think what, you know, we, I think what we had gotten to was we had left off with Jeff had made a, you know, a comment that, you know, the public, the community policing and also strategies as well as involvement with the community engagement needed to include, you know, the business community and downtown merchants. And we sort of left off with that because we didn't finish it. And I think the way we have sort of left it was if people had any other comments related to community engagement on that we would discuss them at the beginning of this meeting. I was the one that had said I thought it was probably these were probably fairly ones that were fairly controversial, that most people agree that we need public and we need community engagement, but if there were other things because and we did not I don't recall that we even had committee conclusions in here. So, if there are any thoughts about that. I mean just in a global way, or by, you know, one through five. I think we should do those and try to do those by 530. Were there, were there any additional comments and we got yours, Jeff. You know, I had put some things on there, mostly I just said completely agree. Were there any other comments about that. Okay, I mean I don't want to rush through it I mean it still is an important section. There's other things that we should include or, you know, and there was fairly good agreement, trying to remember I think. Let's see. Yeah, BP away did not have any responses to those notes I, I'm, or and is it fair to say that you didn't have responses, mostly because you just agree, or, I mean is that a, is that a fair. Is that a fair assumption or no, as a fair assumption. Okay. So, without that we should probably try to get ourselves through section seven, which is a fairly no section eight. That's where we are. We're on specialized and alternative responses. Karen sorry to I just want to make sure. Of course, really assigned as the assigned note taker I just feel weird leaving anything blank so I think I guess the section nine things fall into, and folks can disagree but I feel like it folks falls into three kind of buckets, the first bucket being like general community engagement. And maybe I'm wrong. Remembering this wrong, I feel like they had some specific ones on new American populations, but not not. Oh yeah, and maybe it's just the last one conduct outreach with refugee population. Yeah. Okay, so one of them is about community engagement. Generally so incorporating it to its strategic plan changing how the department thinks about it looking at some other departments and then the, the last one is kind of the only specific one and so I guess it's just in terms of both like suggest a timelines and committee conclusions. Do we want to treat those differently should I just say like, you know, maybe next year when the department feels like it has. Oh, and actually it's sorry I think I'm just not saying that the chief said done. So I guess do we agree that it's done and or. Okay, yeah. I think that. All right, so I don't know, you can take these in order on. The first item is really just sort of a some degree sort of a bit of a declaration that, you know, community policing strategies allow for positive relationship building. I mean that's, that's just a statement of fact on proactive engagement encourages one on one relationship building. I didn't really know where to go with that, except that we agree. The others are community policing embedded within the BPD culture at the forefront of all daily operations again, certainly that is true I don't know. I don't know if you say anything that involves something that is ongoing is done. I think it's just, we're doing it is more is more than the way that I would categorize it as opposed to done. And addressing problems and concern with the local community. And maybe chief. Oh yeah they did divide into two buckets 9.1 and 9.2. I don't know if you can speak to like 9.1.3 because I know BPD does informal events like the creamy with a cop and whatnot but I'm not sure that that really is the same but this is referring to so I guess I don't know. I think that we so in 2020. We lost our budget to do creamy with a cop. That was a line item strike out. During the budget negotiations as was our barbecue budget. We actually returned in 2020 in the current fiscal year but the summer. We simply didn't we had neither resources nor not not monetary resources but we didn't have the staffing or things were still in flux going to the pandemic with regard to restarting those very important efforts. I certainly would be interested in doing those. I don't know that that's exactly what was being discussed in 9.1.3. I'm pretty sure that was again more along the lines of the what the police commission is and I do think the police commission has been talking about making some changes to where they go and how they work. They're not only doing the broadcast on town meeting TV they're publicly warned they are announced in front porch forum. And I think a lot is done to make the public aware of this opportunity and the degree to which the public takes advantage of it is to a certain extent, the public. Great yeah I agree that I don't think then formal events is what's being talked about here I'm also not sure that the police commission, at least as it exists like I don't think that. I don't think the public safety committee is somewhere where this specifically happened specifically I think around the language of like feeling heard like coming to understanding, expecting members of the public to just follow police commission meetings and all their technicalities and everything else that's going on and then coming to understanding from that or feeling heard from that I don't think is. I don't think that's the right and so I think it's one thing if we're saying the police commission is going to try to start hosting, like annual some things. And I would hope and assume that the police department be a partner in that that's like, where is public safety going and I know we tried to do that a little bit as a joint committee. This year and had a mix of technical difficulties and all kinds of other things with our consultants but I think that's more of the kind like to have an avenue for doing this that's neither informal to the like to the degree of like barbecues and creamies but also isn't as formal as our traditional committee structure. And I just and I think I do want to talk about these sections because I do think that's important in terms of rebuilding trust and yeah, like I think it's something like what we're doing but on a bigger scale. Thanks. Milo, did you want to add something. Yes, thank you. I definitely agree with what was just said when I look at 9.13 I don't look at that as being related to the police commission at all. I look at that as being overall within these several suggestions, creating extra opportunities for engagement that haven't previously existed and that go beyond the barbecue or the creamy with a cop which I can see are considered to be you know quote unquote feel good events, but don't get to the root of the type of engagement that we really need in the city to increase trust you know you can have a wonderful afternoon with the community, you can give out free food you can give, you know, six year old kids ice cream but what happens when you're 12 years old right. So, I'm, I'm looking for other things and I've talked about this forever but looking for substantial things that that will involve officers as well like so with the public information position you know I was looking at that you know the quick description that was written for it and I was like wow it needs to go deeper because whoever accepts this position they need to be looking at a description that is really properly explaining what is expected of the position in terms of engagement so I don't look at some of these as including what the police commission is doing because, as I said, it's different. We want to take it to the next level. I've got tons of ideas. I just need someone to say their will and their ideas that can be done now that can be done now despite the staff shortage, I think it's just something that we need to start to move forward with with with increments I wouldn't consider them done. I would say that there's a lot that needs to be added and I think it's something that should always be looked at as ongoing. Thank you. Well you know when you put it that way Milo I mean I think maybe. I mean I would tend to agree with both of you that this this recommendation is not about the police commission. I do think that I do think that we all when I say we all I mean all of us as members of this community are each in a great position, given the fact that we all travels in many different circles to be able to have an opinion and you know and in many cases a very educated opinion about what it will take for all parties to be seen heard and understood. And that's really what this is this is all about. You know, I mean, on a on one level I do think that a public information officer will that could be one of their roles, which is why I think it's really important that they have one. And, you know, I, I think there is a place for those feel good moments. And they've been my understanding is they're very successful I've been to a couple of them they were extremely well attended a couple of years ago. And I think, you know, opportunities for the. And I think what it's called the, it's not called it's the police the police academy I think it is where, you know, civilians come in and learn about policing on. I mean all of those are good opportunities for people to be engaged. But I think with this it sounds to me like reaching out to those people who represent different constituencies is really what this is saying. I don't think it's I agree it's not about the police commission so maybe the better, maybe the committee conclusion if just to sort of put something out there is that for all and for all involved parties to be seen heard and there needs to be direct constituent outreach to all parties. And that is, that is that can, I think, I think the CSL's can help with that. I think that on, you know outreach to constituent groups, nonprofits within Burlington that that can help. But it's an ongoing thing it is definitely not something that I would consider to be done. I think it's an ongoing, always evolving process. Just as people change. So does the need to have this be an ongoing project on sort of like what you do what what what should be done every single day. And so, as far as the, I mean I was a little bit stuck on the strategic plan, mostly because I, you know, I didn't, didn't really know if there is a, we'd have to go back and have a new strategic plan. I don't know if there is one I mean, you're the police commissioners is there a, is there talk of a new strategic plan, because I wasn't, I'm not aware of that and I'm but I'm but I may not know. Well, one of the things that we were talking about was moving our meetings around it was something that we had gone into discussions about last year. Like, if you take the meetings to different parts of the community, as opposed to, I mean now we're having them inside con toys auditorium but they used to only be at the police station, which isn't always considered a safe space for people in the community. And it's not always easy to get downtown for various reasons so good we have it one month in the south and could we have it in the new north end could we go up on UVM campus. We were talking about that and I was actually kind of looking into different spaces and then everything got kind of shut down again because of the latest surge places that normally were open for meetings were not going to be open for meetings until we got past that. So now that cases have been going down again, we're going to be looking back at that. That would be great. I mean so that would certainly be something that could be included in on in 9.1.3. Do you think we've said enough, or do you think that we need to say more Hannah do you have anything you want to add. It's a good idea to connect to nonprofits I did bring that up in as one of the lines for section eight. Because so many nonprofits do outreach events and there's got to be a way to collab with the department police department on bringing them into these community outreach events. I mean I know that certain programs that are connected to the police department do this type of stuff like tabling and such like that I think that that's a great way to do it. I would say to think about like, you know with the barbecue events, like, I think that's great but there's, you know, a chunk of people that live in Burlington that would not go to that that, you know, that's the chunk to that like, you know, probably will have a tougher time building trust with and like would want to seek to build trust with, and they're probably more apt to get connected to other types of events. And the other thing I would say to is like, get connected to like music venues, like see if you can get in on like shows and stuff like that type of community outreach where like people are just going to be is probably a great way to do it and maybe do something with like farmers parking and such to just kind of like essentially normalize the presence of police but not in a sense that like we normally think of, which is always associated with crime. And that normalizing it as more of a community engagement is probably the best way to go. And I'm always like because this is like my job, my day job as an organizer so anybody has a desire to reach out and just wants to, you know, brainstorm with me around that I'm totally open to that. So that sounds like that sounds like an offer that nobody should turn down. Okay, so one last question, which is just making sure I think that she's made this point last time but with the partial agreement was around the strategic plan because BPD doesn't do strategic plan so to do something as part of the strategic plan just doesn't make sense without my understanding of the. Strategic plan. She for BPD believe that this is laying out the groundwork for a lot of different changes that are going to be a component of how we move forward over the next several years between that and plans for that are less strategic and more for deployment this summer, and then very strategic plans around recruitment over the next several years. That is what is a that's those are the components of where the Berlin he's going. Okay. I could probably be put in here that you know to some degree the CN a report the recommendations and the work of this committee and the working group on as well as, you know, our overall conclusions will help to shape a strategic plan going forward. Certainly, certainly indicates how important the, the work of this committee and working group are in terms of shaping what happens going forward with our police department. I have time to catch up. Right and then just on 9.1 point to just to make sure is a feel like what I'm putting it. What I'm putting is, and this is more from my own thing but if anybody disagrees that I can change the notes that on community or input policing. I think this was happening a lot more before 2020. And, you know, like as the department has capacity, they'll continue to implement some of those activity again especially with the inclusion of CSOs. Does that seem fair. Does to me. And I feel good about what we have on section nine. Okay, three minutes late Karen only three minutes late. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. All right, well we've got a lot in front of us with section eight. So these are all. These are all related to specialized and alternative responses. And so we'll start at the beginning on key stakeholders in Burlington should be identified in a community mental health advisory committee formed. The committee must have bpt community mental health person with lived experience and advocacy groups. And with stakeholders high enough on the ladder to implement recommendations. Yet fluent with on the ground processes on on. You know it's interesting this is and this is mostly I think the police commissioners are aware of this Jeff I'm not sure if you are as much as and also Hannah. The police commission did some work very recently with a mental health summit. They wanted to have one they brought a resolution forward. It went before the council. I think it was co sponsored by 11 of 12 of us on, and we have been engaged in conversations about a mental health summit on. Initially it was going to be led by the public health personnel that we have that's with the office of racial equity inclusion and belonging. However, those, at least the one person who was really going to be leading that effort is leaving the city, as of I think the 15th or so of April. And so there's now been discussion about that role going to the United Way, and the United Way has done a tremendous amount of work on mental mental health and they have they are right now hiring another person who is going to be working on that so they have more of the resources than we do on and they did say that it won't be happening in May, which is what we had hoped for, but that it would hopefully happen in June. There will basically be a summit that would bring together on community mental health providers people with lived experience advocacy groups on really everyone that is in that list it's not a committee, but on just so everyone knows that that is that is in the works that's why I had mentioned that in my notes. I don't know if. You know, and of course the other thing also is that April one is the deadline for the RFP for the cahoots model on the crisis team, the crisis response team, which means that hopefully they will be in place by, certainly by the goal of course is for them to be on the street by summer. When we know that there will be a lot of people out there. So, um, you know this is this is a recommendation to have a committee, and I don't, I don't know if that's necessarily what we want or we want something that is more of a, a series of meetings, so that we all are on the same page, and everyone is talking with each other whether this is, you know this is a very small committee that they're talking about I'm not sure if we're really would be better off with something that's very similar to community stat, which is all service providers and that's that's to do with the mostly with substance use disorder. So, that's sort of where we are I don't know. Sorry to me to run on so long but that's that just want just so everybody knows where we are with a couple of these things. Jeff, thank you. No, just curious, is this something that would fall under the police department's purview or this be something in conjunction with the police department but led by others. Well, the, you know, the, the, the cahoots model, the, you know, the crisis rapid response team. That would be go through this police dispatch that that's that's the model is that you know there's call for service. It is, we all know the data has shown us that many, many, many of the calls are mental health related. The dispatcher would then put that call that call would be rooted to that group, and they would respond on. And we are trying to work it out that it might not start with it being 24 seven that the goal would be for this group to be 24 seven response and that's the, that is been the successful decades long model in Eugene Oregon being copied effectively in many in other cities throughout the country. But, you know, I, I don't know how do people feel about that as far as a recommendation that we have a that we, we encourage the formation of an advisory committee, and part of that would be done through on through the cahoots model. There would have to be a group that was overseeing that as well. And that could certainly be part of the answer. I can yeah I think it definitely. Right because the cahoots model I guess is like the direct service provision this is more of an advisory body which I think isn't a bad idea I do wonder, like who at the city would be best to leave this and I think Jeff's right it's not necessarily like bpd staff. I know in the beginning of what you said Karen, but I know that we had a health equity person who I think would be a good person to staff this and be like hey this month or this quarter or how often people meet we're talking about this and I don't think that position is filled right now. I assume with the changes so I don't, I guess. I think that this is worth looking at I feel like I would want to talk to the staff member who is in that position to be like what would be useful. And I don't think we have that person right now so I guess maybe the recommendation could be like once we like once the city has a health equity. I think that would be the type position again like having a conversation with that person about like what advisory committee would be helpful based on this kind of being draft one and what support do you need from the city council and the mayor, if any, to do what you think would be the most helpful. Yeah, I mean it may be a little while I mean why don't so maybe that would be the, you know, because that department, you know, is a bit in flux, and that person is leaving in mid April, that maybe a suggested timeline would be you know sometime in the fourth quarter, giving them a chance to sort of let's see we are in that we are just, we are just leaving the first quarter of 22. So maybe the third quarter of 22 I'm sure that there will be a strong effort to replace. Um, Marielle, as soon as possible. This is just small group on Milo, please go ahead. Hi, I just wanted to mention, I'm pretty much agreeing with everything that is being said, but I do want to emphasize it was something that I emphasize when we had a meeting to talk about what the police commission was envisioning with regards to the summit, that it definitely involved a state contact as well, because there are some things that still need to be done by the state in order to get to help improve the situation. And then part of I kind of envisioned part of like an advisory committee is keeping track of incidents keeping track of results and and numbers and once our goods model is up and running, you know, tracking them as well. Thank you. Okay, one of the other thing also one of the other things also is that there is on nationwide there is a group of people that are studying on these cities who are just now coming out coming forward with a cahoots program. So we will be able to be part of their data collection on to show the effectiveness of of the of that model, which is actually pretty exciting because we're going to hopefully be there on the ground floor, which is, which is great on. All right, the. So, the second item is about forming a statewide steering committee on, and I wasn't really sure where to go with that. I mean they talked about a call center on. I don't know if that is something on the call center for the state will need to be centrally, centrally involved prior to sending 911 call on. I wasn't really sure where to go with that, if that was something that. I mean, there seemed to be agreement I don't know. Maybe for, you know, this is more your purview I mean maybe for Jabu or for Milo if you have on, if you have information to share on that or for the chief. And has a opinion about whether or not we should. Is it is it for us to decide to evaluate on the formation of a statewide steering committee. I, I don't know that might be beyond our purview. I think, I mean from my standpoint that because we hear one thing that we've heard a lot is the commission is about the. About the state not recognizing, although there's more money flowing now toward mental health care. They're still not the beds that are needed like getting the state to understand when it's appropriate to create a bed versus the option of putting someone in jail or in many cases as we've seen, I mean, not putting someone in jail right because we know that putting them in jail doesn't solve the problem that is mental health related. So that's why we kind of felt the state needed to be involved in the conversation so that they could hear the different types of examples and how it's really affecting what's going on in our city. You know on a daily basis with the same individuals right we know of the same individuals who are I don't even want to call them repeat offenders but they have chronic issues related to their mental health. Chabu, did you want to add something to that I know you had your hand up, like your real hand. No, I was just trying to I think trying to recall it. I believe was it chicken County or the state tried to try to consolidate the like the all area 901 and like the one central location and I think that didn't pass. So I guess I'm just trying to look at like the logistic, the logistics of all that and I think it's been ever a preview. And I don't know how that impact on one services, if everything was to be consolidated, kind of based on the face of my same issue that brought when I came through I think it was like three or four years ago. So I guess the conclusion is that, you know that, you know that we, we would certainly support the formation of a statewide steering committee. And would certainly contribute, you know, some amount of time to helping with that, particularly if it is geared towards you know, not, not, how do I put this, if it is geared towards assisting with the challenges that we have not necessarily just jailing people. I'm sure there's a better way to say that, but that's sort of where I just off the cuff. So the, the, the utilizing the, the community mental health advisory committee to review policies specifically related to recognizing and responding to persons with mental or behavioral health conditions. I think that, well I know I see the, I see the chief's response was very similar to, to, to mine in terms of the mental health summit. But Jibu you had said the police committee commission is currently reviewing what two of the directives that relate to this and I, oh yes and you sent them to me as well. And I guess those I think probably in section one, a long time, quite a few meetings ago. I think the can't imagine why there would be disagreement about that I mean that would be, you know, reviewing policies by from people who have that expertise would seem to make complete sense to me. I mean you're doing that this work Jibu are you, you know when you say you're currently reviewing that. Are you. Have you are you in some way reaching out to people who have that expertise, or do you feel amongst yourselves. Yes, so, Commissioner Comerford is, is like reading this with one of the commissioners well too. And she has been reaching out. She's losing teaches social work at UVM so she's reaching out to people within our network to get input and feedback on 13.02 and 13.03. So maybe as I have a working draft, I don't think for our next team but for the main meeting. But that was the update I got last and our meeting last week. Okay. So I guess maybe that would be, maybe that would be the way to go with that one Siriah is just simply that. So that we necessarily need to, you know that sort of relates to a point one point one, which is, we don't need to form a committee, unless we know that that would be helpful. Given the fact that we have a department that isn't a reasonable amount of flux, and we don't know who the person is that would, whether that person would need would feel that committee was helpful. So in, in the meantime, we know that the police commission is working on those directives as they relate to people with diminished capacity persons with disabilities. And that might relate to the second let's say the next one which is, I mean this could be interesting I hadn't really thought about this but the again in the meantime before there is some sort of a committee, the community, the mental health summit could include this robust community forum, which is on 8.2.2. And specifically talk about police policy, or police policy review. But perhaps it would be best for the police commission to do the work first, and then that could be put to a group of people that are have that experience although it sounds like you're doing a lot of that outreach as well. I'm not really sure if that would be an unnecessary step. I don't know if others if others feel differently if that is maybe just where maybe to just simply say that this is all part of 8.2.1 and 8.2.2 are to some degree similar in the sense that, you know, in the meantime before there is a committee that the police commission on its on their own is currently reviewing those directives and, and taking the lead on that. I'm not sure really really I don't know if we really need to say anything more than that. Does anyone feel differently. Was that of this. Soraya. Yes, I was at this. Okay, all right. Too bad you don't have what we don't have one of those that you can put in your little screen. Maybe you do do they. I can't remember. Now, as far as ensure a coordinated approach with policy review, telecommunications, EMS. When you are doing the directive review, Chabu, do you know if that will include other, you know, other public safety? Or does it include other public safety? Sorry. I'm not, I'm not part of that. It's like the two person group that's overlooking that. So I can't say for exactly whether it is or not, but I can actually get back to you on that. But probably within the hour. Okay. All right. Why don't we move on in that, in that case. So, this is a training. The next one is a training item, which is prioritized sufficiently scenario based training, particularly for de escalation strategies and responding to individuals in crisis. And other evaluations are written for each for each officer as part of the evaluation on. So, on chief, you feel that that is already being done. Is that right. This is 8.3. Yes, I do. I think that, as I said, the evaluations are verbal, but we are doing this. This is a component of our, both our ICAT training, our patrol procedures training. And our crisis response training. It is also a component of actual events where after action reviews are pretty common for large scale critical events for officers to take time to think about response. It's often conducted either immediately after the incident once everything has been stabilized and people are what we call 10 eight or free again to take calls. Before it is conducted sometimes the next shift, or during the next roll call when the members who were present for the incident will be available. And it's an integral part of the learning process for, for anything that involves a large scale response. It's part of training and others and if detective burn is still on, he is intimately involved in both our, our training and I think he can concur or describe. Yeah, we're always doing scenario based training there the last couple of weeks to be new patrol procedures and we've been putting officers true scenarios for how they would respond to certain incident so yeah. We do a scenario based training. Can you, can you, can you also speak or into the, the, the next item where you talk about the recommendation of research and connecting with other like police department who departments who've incorporated scenario based training. Are you, are you already doing that. I'm not. I'm what you know what we do all our training by ourselves like it's part of BPD. I don't know of any connection outside of people at the department teaching at the Academy. I'm not sure of any, so I'm just catching up on the on the point. If I may offer a clarification so our patrol procedures, excuse me our ERU team is in talks with VSP and with federal partners to bring different tools learned at the federal level including the FBI's HRT and talk about that we have trained with the VSP on certain kinds of crisis response. And the, the notion of the scenario based training that part as orange says, we have actually set the model for this at the state level via the police Academy for the past couple years for the past several years really. And although we are despite being staffed, we're currently 38% total down. I'm more than 50% down on patrol. I am still sending officers down to the police Academy, even though we only had one in the previous Academy we only have one in the current Academy. It's because I want what we do here to be disseminated and shared in the state. And there are, there is no other entity not not even the state police that responds to the kinds of events that these officers do with the skill and tactics that they do. The work that was done on Saturday morning at two in the morning, when two individuals were shot in the parking garage was absolutely exemplary. We had officers rushing into that scenario when people were we still did not know the location of the gunman, the officer immediately began rendering a put a chest seal on an abdominal wound that in all likelihood saved the individuals who were shot in the parking garage. And then the other individual who was shot in the parking garage gave incredibly effective communication to that individual and the other individual who was shot in an extremity. Communication that was clear to the point was caring and was investigatory reassuring and was getting it needed information was able to effectively it deescalate an overwrought crowd that was pushing in. And part of that crowd, young people, high school seniors, why they were out at 2am on a Friday night is up for grabs but there they were, they were met in the parents and some of those kids who were witnesses came to the police department later in the night early that morning and three in the morning for the morning, and frankly told officers that what they had seen had completely changed their opinion about policing about the nature of what these officers do, and will do and will put themselves at risk for the fact that that officer Noah who has showed up with with purple gloves and a rifle and immediately slung that rifle behind his back in order to administer that seal. That was that's the kind of work that the officers in this department get to do. Not in a good way we don't get to do it like we're but we are privileged to get to do it and do it well at a rate that other police departments simply don't. And that's why I continue to send officers down to the police academy despite the fact that it makes zero sense from a resource deployment standpoint. Okay, thanks so much chief Milo go ahead please. Thank you. One of the things that I think often about regarding de escalation is also the concept of not inadvertently causing an escalation. And at times we've had some difficult conversations around how certain incidents could have been handled differently. So, I guess I would like to see a plan or see how something is incorporated in order to, to help officers avoid inadvertently escalating a situation. So that would be my, my comment on this particular item. Thank you. Okay, thanks. Thanks Milo. So I'm not really sure where to go with this it sounds to me like scenario based training is being done. And, at least from what I gather is being done very well. So, I think that I think, I think that it sounds like scenario based training is being prioritized. I mean sufficiently is a judgmental is a judgment term but I think that, you know the perhaps the best committee conclusion is, you know, we've heard this we've heard this from the commission that, you know, always, that always the, you know, the primary goal is to assure safety, and the de escalation is always a priority with the training, and when officers respond. That seems, I don't know, do others have a, I know as Raya, how do you feel about that. I did write down the note that we're not specifically doing this on 8.32 but generally have in our department exchange through the police academy. And I would generally recommend or sorry would generally say that any improvements or maybe a low given that the department feels it's currently sufficient. And I did highlight them to still for all this into training. So that, yeah, we can collect all the training recommendations and the PD can come up with their that plan. Okay, great. Let's try to move on here. So, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead. I just would just given some of those incidents where, where officers have inadvertently escalated their situations, I am curious if there are scenarios that help train for that. And I guess I would like to see that mentioned in, in the notes. What would you like, what, what would, what would I understand, I think, I think, sorry, Milo, if I'm going to show you correctly is saying, like, maybe generally scenario based is being insufficiently but could we be doing more specifically around non escalation. Right, so not getting to the point where you have to do is like sometimes they come into a situation where they have to de escalate right because the situation is already is already hot or has the potential to be hot so you want to work with an individual to keep things calm so you can resolve come to a positive result, if possible whenever but how, how do officers think about. See it's really hard I have I have examples but it's really hard because because I can't really say right well a couple of them have actually been public but it's it's it's what what training is is done to say okay you this is how you de escalate, but are there specific scenario training to avoid escalations. Right, am I making sense. Yeah. Yes. Yes, thank you. Okay, let's, this is another. This is another BPD training item curriculum development should be prioritized for all BPD training lesson plans visual aids etc. I think there was broad agreement for that. Milo had said, agree with like more information on current trainings. Chief you it said that current training already incorporates these aspects that would, I mean that would seem to make sense to me on that you would have that if you're if you're doing curriculum development that you'd have all of these things would go along with that in terms of lesson plans visual aids and all the others. But I mean this is, I, maybe, we could say we, you know, we all we all agree with that. Not really sure what else to really say. I agree with your Karen I think it seems like it's being done and we kind of check that one off the box there. Yeah, does anyone disagree. Okay. So the next, so I guess what we can say on that one's right is that, you know, the committee committee's conclusion is that, you know, that that is a priority and that based on current training that those aspects are being integrated. And, you know, I mean, I think, I think for I mean I'm taking the chief's word for that that that is already being done and I haven't heard any disagreement in terms of particularly coming from the police commissioner so I'm inclined to think that that that is the case. Sorry, and I'm also referring back to everybody remembers 1.42.1, which was to get that like a better understanding of current training. Okay, so maybe that should be put into that, you know, that on a, I don't know, a quarterly basis that there would be a discussion at the police commission where current training was was was recapped discussed. And, you know, I think we got into that in section one in terms of a listing of who has been to what training. I see her to please commission once a year to counselors. Okay. All right. Milo, did you want to add something to that. Yeah, I was actually just going to follow up on exactly what was just said that this is in line with that other request just overall looking at transparency and training training is a huge issue across our country right now, how officers are being trained. So that they can be more effective in the community and also be building trust and reducing a negative use of force incidents. So I just the transparency of the training is really important and and and having access to what is being trained and documents that are being used for training I think is really important. Thank you. Okay, thanks. Right, so the, the next recommendation, and I'm not really sure where to go with that one either it's the utilizing the statewide steering community to assess what is already operational in terms of mental health training in other communities in Vermont and then begin with questions regarding how pooled resources I mean the all of these make sense. I'm not really sure how, you know, workable they are in terms of, you know, being something that we can do or not do we could always recommend it. I assume that there's a statewide ability to do that, but it certainly is beyond our scope. That would seem maybe that would be I don't know if that if others feel that that might be the best thing is to simply say yeah we agree with that everyone agreed. It's not exactly a huge priority, but we're this to that we could certainly express that we agree with this and encourage BPD to to advocate for it. That might be enough. Okay. Anyone else have anything on that one. Just want to try not to take up too much time on things that are really out of our purview. So we can get on and get on to the good stuff. It is out of our purview but I think it is something that BPD is advocate for police commission and the city council needs to advocate for because this issue is just going to be with us for a while. And, and, you know, we're going to be looking at trying to improve because we know these numbers have gone up significantly. Even though other incidents have gone down. It's just something that all eyes need to be on in a more conscious way, and the state needs to really be a more, I guess, active participant and understanding what officers are facing, you know, in the street on a day on a, you know, everyday basis, and also how it's affecting residents and how it's affecting businesses, etc. Thank you. Okay. All right. Just trying to take some notes here. I'm sorry. All right, so the, the next, then. The next item is also about surrounding communities. This is surrounding communities. Who are currently implementing or researching CIT, such as Hartford and Montpelier. As recommended in section one BPD should consult with team to statewide coordinator. And then to the chief this is already being done. This is that there is this exact recommendation to peer, it appears as though this exact recommendation is already being done. Is that is that fair to say chief. It is in the sense of we are going to team to. And we are working with I have spoken to chief Pete about the different trainings that they're doing. And we are investigating obtaining and providing CIT. Okay. Did you want to add something on that Milo I know you had said that you wanted to be you wanted more information on the work with Montpelier and Hartford. Does this sort of answer your question or did you, did you have more that you wanted to hear. I guess some of these things where I guess I wanted to have an understanding on more details in terms of what they were working on. And so we have a determination. If it's something that we incorporate or pursue or are we already ahead of the game, depending on what the case may be. Thank you. Just throw in a question. What is team two. Team two is a statewide training that gives officers resources that they can refer people to talks a little bit about deescalation techniques and how to approach people in crisis, and then acts as a coordinating umbrella for different kinds of services. The functionality is, I think it's a, I think it's a good program. Detective burn attended it detective burn actually won an award in our most recent award ceremony for an act in 2020, in which he used team to training and ended up in their newsletter as an example of how the training does work and the kinds of, of conduct that it can gender, but I think that the, the advent of the CSL program takes away a lot or sort of performs in a better way a lot of what team to is designed to help other agencies achieve which is a cognizance of available services and an ability to refer people to them. So we are nevertheless continuing to send officers to it. It's the closest thing that Vermont has to see it, which has been proven elusive for obtaining. And I think I've, I think a total of about 30 employees from the BBG have gone through team two out of our current of our current 65, but it's not all uniforms they're also people who are dispatchers have gone through team to I am sending at least one or two CSLs down to team to in May. So we're sending a large contingent. Thanks. All right, so it sounds like that, you know, as I say, I mean, it certainly sounds like this is being done, and being done. That really takes advantage of team to and and I'm not really sure if we really need to go any further than that on this one. I just want to ask one follow question and sorry this is my understanding the report. Does that mean that CSOs will also be joining in team to going forward or is it really for sworn officers sworn CSL CSOs and dispatchers. Thank you. Okay. So the other one that relates to team, the team team to which is the to from well 8.4.4, but in terms of 8.4.3. Sounds like there is broad agreement on this. Investigating obtaining and providing CIT training with neighborhood agencies. So again, I mean, it sounds like it sounds like this is, I mean, we all agree the question is whether or not, whether or not that's a high priority. We sort of have gotten off of that. Most people felt that it was a pretty high priority. So is this something. So it sounds like you are already or maybe were because of this investigating on this chief is that is that right was this a response to the CNA report, or was this something that you are already looking into before that. And, you know, certainly based on what I'm on, what is your opinion as to how much of a priority this would be. So the training priority as I said, you know, Detective burn one an award for going to team to last year that act happened in 2020 before this happened, we've been sending officers to team to for quite some time. I have been seeking CIT training since, since I was a deputy chief and have been attempting to identify it, we have not been able to find it. So I had Lieutenant Justin Coucher when he was the administrative lieutenant looking for it. He couldn't. I've asked Lieutenant LeBarge to look into it. It's our training coordinator. It has proven elusive. But it is things that we these are ideas and things we've been working on for quite some time. And based on that, maybe the, maybe the committee conclusion is that we all agree that this is a priority on and on, and would simply recommend that the, the department continue on the, on the trajectory that it is in in prioritizing it and figuring out a way to make it happen on the. So I have a quick question. Chief, have you ever approached Nicole about information to see if they could make any recommendations. No, I have not. I have talked with other entities like Perf and the networks that I have among chiefs through the police executive research forum and IACP. I think Nicole is a civilian oversight body. It's not a mental health training provision. I do understand that there's civilian oversight body, but because mental health issues are so important, and are coming up everywhere in civilian oversight. They do so much. They, they track so many things that are related to the issues that come up in civilian oversight. So I'll, I'll look into that using our Nicole contacts to see what if they have any recommendations. Thank you. Okay, that would be good. That that's actually, that's what that's actually a good because it's. It's a, it's a more workable and a little more proactive than, you know, and it's always great when there's suggestions on next steps. That would be, let's see, that is 8.4, 8.4.3, 8.4.4. This is also part of the same. This is part of the same thing. This is an impact I even said same as above. I think we all sort of agreed we probably could just simply put that from 8.8.4.2 and 8.4.1 these are all related. They're all in the 8.4 list of recommendations. I'm not sure if we need to really go into that again. The, we get into 8.5. This is, let's see, in light of COVID-19 there's been a significant increase in e learning training, including on mental health there is often a per officer charge size of Berlin to make this a good solution to consider. And this is another training item. This could be literally a copy and paste into the training tab. It simply is a recommendation that I mean it's more of, I guess to some degree an observation. Not sure how important it is I mean obviously it's more of a cost saving thing. But I'm not really sure how much of a cost saving it is because you've got to do the work to find it. So I don't know if others feel that this is not a, a screamingly, a screaming, a screamingly important priority given all the other many priorities that we've got. Anybody know anything about that low on the list. Okay, so Zariah on, on, on line, what is it 8.5.2. Or actually wait a minute maybe I skipped one. Did I skip one. No. Yeah, I did. Actually, I did. Sorry about that. So 8.5 got ahead of myself. So 8.5.2 that line could just simply be cut and pasted into the training tab. So as far as 8.5.1 on in recruit orientation annual and service and refresher training recommended whenever possible for committees or for communities to include a site visit to key community resources like drop off centers scenario based training. This is also another training issue. There's no agreement on this though not as high a priority. Well it was a high priority for some on that might be something that could be if there's a suggested timeline could maybe be like a q3 or something. And it sounds like that is already being done. Yeah, I think that's a great idea for either for Milo or Jabu have you and your police commission work as this has this come up in terms of like a report to you on this type of work on, you know, including site visits to community resources because I think it's a great idea have you heard about that. Yeah, go ahead Jabu. Thank you for your commission but I did do the Community Academy when I first joined this commission that was offered I think. Anyway, pre pandemic, and then that that is, it is discussed time didn't a lot of something there is discussed. Okay. Personally, I think a chief that this is something that could really be highlighted as something that the officers are doing I think it's, I think people need to hear about this kind of thing. Because, you know, people just don't know. And I would hope that that might be something that perhaps when you have a pio that you might be able to highlight as well. All right, so let's see. All right, so the next item would be that BPD should mandate all officers receive a higher standard of training, rather than having a full patrol based on specialized response. And that would be, it seemed as though everyone agreed Hannah, unfortunately had to leave us and had they did come up with they did have a comment about our connections to all community resource based nonprofits, made between BPD. I guess. The question would be on either to chief or detective burn how do you go about that in that kind of engagement with on, you know, officers and strong community resources how do you go about fostering that. I want to give like specific examples of that of how that factors in, for example in FTO, because many of these are components of FTO. The idea of connecting with understanding how we work with our mental health partners of how we work with other partners like steps, etc. And the, the notion that we are, we learn on a day to day basis as well, what partners are available to us out there. Yeah, I'm just trying to remember back now to FTO. All the things that my FTO has brought me to just kind of standard and what I bring FTO is to you know we bring up to the hospital and make sure that they know this is your first time resource for crisis to make sure that they're on first name basis with all of our outreach team, they go into dispatch so they understand how certain calls are prioritizing dispatched out so they have a working understanding of that. They're brought to act so they know where they're going to assess that. So, all that kind of stuff happens on FTO that happened eight years ago and I was on FTO and when I have trainees I make sure my people in training understand these resources and how they work. Yes, far as. Okay. So, so there's agreement on this on that all officers should receive a higher standard of training, rather than having a full patrol based specialized response. And I think there's just broad agreement for that. Consequently having well trained officers with strong community resources is an important component to have. So we all know things can go poorly on a call in a matter of minutes this is not always preventable, but the more training resources to police response and specialized police response the better the likelihood of a positive outcome. So what I would also input on this Soraya is on, you know, just the involve an inclusion, you know, very soon of the cahoots response. So it would just, it would not just simply be training for BPD, but also the fact that there would be a specialized alternative on that would hopefully increase the likelihood of a positive outcome. That's what I, that's what I would say. I'm not sure that's a, there's a suggested timeline except that hopefully that will happen by the third quarter of 22. Yeah, on a lot of the training ones I'm putting TPD just because we talked about that map and prioritizing so I don't know if we want to release in section one we have said that we would leave those decisions to be TPD based on how we have the overall model comes out. Okay. The city of Burlington and BPD should conduct a thorough assessment of the ecosystem of Burlington and state of Vermont which will be required, develop a roadmap and specialized response mandated or voluntary. I didn't really have a comment on this I, I don't know if others agreed. I'm not really sure where to go with that these things that go beyond, you know, go beyond Burlington and start talking about the state of Vermont that sort of loses me because I'm just not really sure what the purview is there. And I didn't really get the recommendation. Maybe others got that a little bit better than I did. I didn't really understand it. See, where you fall. I mean it sounds like I don't know to what extent team two does this but it sounds like it's just saying make a map of what resources there are. Maybe that's true. Yeah. I mean I think with all the things that we've got going on this seems to be a pretty low I would think this is a pretty low priority I know Jibu gave it a three. These are things that just sort of, I don't know, don't seem to be. I'm not saying they're not important I'm just saying that a scheme of things they don't seem as much of a priority. I think overall there's a, there, there's a general need that, you know, being the, the largest city population base in the state, having some pretty unique issues in the northwestern part of the state. Right, we are always talk about the fact that we are are even though Vermont is still one of the widest states in the country. There is rapid diversification, and our corner of the state that brings up a lot of additional issues. And I think that, yes, it's something to be looked at long term, but not to be buried because I, I don't think it's, I think it's important for the state to really be communicating with with Burlington, and even when you ski on some things because when you ski sees a lot of things that Burlington also sees. So, and I think these will trend in the rest of the state. So, yeah, I think it's something that ultimately needs to happen, just based on the, the, the population base here and in our surrounding communities because what's happening here goes out to the surrounding communities, and eventually to the rest of the state. Thank you. It's like the ecosystem what I was thinking of is just not the things in the program so I was thinking of the people as well. I was just incorporating all of that. Thanks. Okay. All right. So I guess the conclusion is that you know that this, this is important, certainly not a top priority given all the many other priorities we have. But certainly is important given the fact that our ecosystem, you know, is, is similar to others, particularly when you ski which I would tend to agree with the, the next one is very similar. It talks about ensuring the training roadmap that includes mandated training for all officers refresher training on, you know, and let's see, I think I lost a little bit of it. I'm recognizing responding to mental health and behavioral calls for service while still keeping skills refresh moving forward. I'm not really sure what that means cheap but what is what is Vermont rule 13 rule 13 is the states direction for what annual training must occur in order for an officer to be recertified as a level three police officer on an annual basis. And this and this is included in that training. Yes, the notion that, you know that there's a training roadmap with mandated training and specialized advanced level training. Yes, and we discussed this at length with with CNN. This section has a lot that is clearly boilerplate and it is not designed merely for Vermont. There are incredible misreadings of how we interact between the peace apps and dispatch. There are misunderstandings of how the criminal justice system works here with regard to officers transporting to correctional facilities and what the relationship is there. There's the repeated use of the term commander for the police department. There is mention of things that that are happening. The, for example, in the recommendation section about the about CIT long description CIT and then in the recommendations they drop in team to which is Vermont and comes from some of the discussions, but it isn't referenced at all in the body. It's just sort of included in in recommendation. There are aspects to this part that are that are things we're already doing and I do think that it's an example of a sense that this section a little bit less than others. Excuse me a little bit more than others this section a little more than others was written in a general way and not specific. Okay. All right, so it looks as though is right on seven on a point seven point two and eight point seven point three that these are both training and require trainings that those are done because they have to be their mandated. I don't know that we really need to spend a lot of time on those. The let's see. As far as if there's no budget allocated. I'm sorry go ahead. I'm sorry so refresher training is that mandated is refresher training mandated training and then it has refresher training separate because we come across some incidents where we've talked about various. I mean part of it is is is mental health. There are a few people diminish capacities or things that are indicates mental illness but there's also things that have come up with regards to juveniles. So, I guess I look at mandated and refresher training to be separate things. And I have. I think we've, and you can back me up here but I think it's fair to say that in our discussions between the department and the police commission that there have been some things that we've been concerned that need refresher or need to be reviewed in some way so I wouldn't assume that because considering refresher to be different from mandating that this is something that's being done. Well, when you say mandating, or that it must be done. I mean, in order to continue to have the certification, you have to do the training. That's what I'm understanding. So, you know, there's no wiggle room here, either you do it or you are not a level three officer. So, I would imagine they're doing it. Because that's what they do. I guess I, I, you know, it's hard it's hard not to know because I have to know I don't know the history of every single officer in terms of. How long they've been and exactly what their training was I will say that there's issues where there are certain things that I have a deep concern where certain policies procedures directors rules aren't there there aren't adequate refreshers for them. Okay. Well, if, you know, if you if, if, as we would if we agree, Mr. Ryan mean certainly that could be integrated into the community's conclusion which is, or the committee yet. The community committee, the committee's conclusion that certainly mandated. And then, how would you, how would you word that Milo, in terms of concern the concern that you have, how would you. Can I take a stab at it, if that's okay. Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah, I'm again saying like, see 1.4 2.1 because again, I think we want to get all the training stuff into one place and prioritize it there. And so I think for this one saying like note the emphasis on refreshers in this note and review the need to prioritize that beyond mandates or something like that. Okay, how does that sound Milo. I'm comfortable with that thank you. Okay, great. Wonderful. I think that I think we, I think we have ourselves a pretty straightforward one with 8.7.4 because it says that there's no budget, budget allocated for CIT training, consider allocating the funds. The reality is the funding is available. So that, and I know Milo it said you strongly agree, although may not be possible. I mean, for a while, do you know, due to staffing issues it sounds to me. You had said chief the of serious resource based concerns about being able to put all officers through 40 hours of training including CSO CSL's. When you say that you have serious resource based concerns is that funding, or people, or both. But primarily people at this stage. Okay. So even if you had people. You, you do at least feel that you have sufficient funding on to continue to continue that is that I have not because I have not been able to find the training I don't know how much the training will cost. However, the bigger issue is losing. I have an officer for example who had this training in Colorado for she got 40 hours of training for me to administer 40 hours of training to all of the personnel. When we are staffed the way we are is a virtual impossibility certain and it may be a may be a monetary impossibility as well, particularly if it requires travel. But there, there may or may not be trained the trainer programs that are available whereby we pay more for one or two officers to attend a longer program. Are you interested or in and then have them return and deliver that training to others. That too has has resource implications, both from a monetary standpoint if I have to travel them and pay for them to live someplace for probably more than 40 hours train the trainer would probably be more on the order of 60 to 80 hours. But right now, the bigger impact is not the money it is losing two officers from the road for a week or two weeks in the case of a train the trainer program. Again, those are hypotheticals I know that CIT training takes up to 40 hours in some locations. Again, that was described by an officer here who has had the training but not the train the trainer version. And she she's, you know, good. I think that she she really enjoyed the program and thought it was worthwhile. The, the question is where we would so where we find it or not if I if I did find it to have this is another reason why for example I would like bike patrols to return, but bike patrol for an officer takes at least a week and up to two weeks of bike training and you lose the officers you lose the bikes in a policing capacity. And I can't spare officers for that long a period of time away from patrol or their normal or their normal tasks. So that's what I mean by serious resource based concerns and being able to put all officers CSO CSL's and ECS through 40 hours of training. Okay. Alright, thanks for that explanation. Jeff, go ahead. I would just say that you know we're just so short staff that we just don't have the ability to to spread our force so so thin here. It'd be nice but once we're back to full staffing. And I think this could be considered but not probably not until then. Okay, I think they're saying that thank you. I think there are 10 sounds like there is pretty. There's something along that that you know strongly strongly agree although it may not be possible at this time. So that would be something that is a training item but that would again is right I go into that training bucket for the same reason on the I wasn't really sure why this next one is listed here. Because it's going back to auditing body cam footage before and after each shift including identified for having a mental health component. I mean, I know for myself I thought that was a lot on just an awful lot. And even if that's even possible to do is that a, you know, is that something that is, I mean is that something that's even really doable. Any departments in your in your experience chief visit and do any departments do this audit body cam footage. Karen if I can cut in again. I, yeah, I don't I know that it's like I remember now I was here for this because I remember we had a long discussion on this and I think we're in specifically bringing up concerns on like, like, for employee rights that they, you know, that it's negotiable in the contract but that folks felt like they should have and I know we took notes on this so I don't know like I'll try to find them again and get those to Jared again, but I think the appropriate thing to do here is to refer us back to that section saying like, consider having. I think with the conclusion that we came to even though it's not in our current notes is to consider having there be more reasons to review body cam footage but it's still not being random, or all of everything. And anybody correct me if I feel like that's not correct. No, I think that is what we discussed and we did have a long discussion I thought it was in section one but it might have been in section two or three. It was early on or section four right I guess it wasn't as early as I thought I've, I can't really remember. We on, let's see one. Right I did go back and I found three, four and five so I know that we do have those in the minutes. Oh great. Excellent. I would hate to lose something here. That would really be a bummer. Sorry, Jared you said that you do have the notes for four. Because I remember taking those. Yes I do have the notes for four. Right, then I won't try to find them. You know, and this the other one also I feel like Sarayas sort of goes back the incorporating defining the escalation into use of force documentation I mean though I'm not really sure why this is here. It, you know, and well in fact actually thank thankfully somebody did go back the chief went back it's on 6.4 I mean 4.3.2. I mean this is the same. As I say I'm not really sure why. You know why this is here. And maybe, you know, maybe it was something that just was put in to make sure that that point was covered. The other note the chief is right it's 1.333.1 so your right section one. Oh is it. Okay. So we need to spend an awful lot of time on that we have a couple of items that are related to court diversion. Court liaison. Sort of sort of lost me a little bit. Oh good. So, so you thought this was a good recommendation. 8.9.1. What are your thoughts on that. I mean, I'm always for trying to keep people out of jails and it seems kind of like court diversion as kind of process here so anything that kind of keep people outside of jail and kind of like reducing that kind of harm that that does on like people's lives I think that's a great idea. I mean, how we all about actually, I think that that's another question, but I mean, yeah, it seems like this is kind of not really a BPD perv, you think my understanding is that it's district attorneys and says it's like kind of determine whether you they push for jail time those kind of things like that so I don't know how we get information to the days of the state but yeah. Yeah, these were these ones that are sort of beyond our purview sort of got me. I love me not really knowing how to, because I felt like that I felt I agreed that they weren't there good, but are they, you know how much of an, how much do we have to say about that, go ahead Jeff, please. No, I would agree with you boo I think you know if, if, for whatever crime might have been committed if you could do court diversion I think a mandatory job training program. You know, if you don't want people to repeat their crimes I mean to get them trained into something and make them a valuable member of society to have a job I think it would be a good opportunity to try to incorporate that. Maybe this is another one where we can really just say that you know obviously this is beyond, beyond our immediate purview but certainly the city supports on any, you know, any jail based diversion and care coordinated programs that keep, that keep people out of prison and give them resources to be able to, you know, build successful lives. I think that might be the way to, and maybe, and maybe the way to deal with the, the other. You know, I think, I think, I think that's probably why we're sort of all going a little bleary eyed because they're, they're, they're deep, and they're important but they're not something that we have her view over. Maybe you had said see above, I said the same thing, because they're basically about, they're very similar. So that would bring us to 8.9 point to determining a court liaison would be a useful part of a robust diversion. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately with the CSL's. We do have justice involved case management on in 8.9.3. I didn't look at it that way but can see. So, so as far as the CSL's. This is a direct, this is a part of their job description is that right chief. No, it's a part of their function our job descriptions don't include this language because this is not written for Burlington. So, I think that the, I mean this is written for a different state structure with regard to, you know, and even at the bottom it talks about for example an officer or a deputy. This is this is very broad language for any number of different clients of the consulting company. What I mean by the fact that this largely describes the CSL's and Cape is the idea that what we have is, it is justice involved case management in the sense that they are employees of the police department they are coordinating on a daily and incident by incident basis with police officers. And then what they are doing is they are attempting to divert individuals from having further police responses. They are whether that is individuals who've shown incidents of mental health, or whether it is people who have experienced domestic violence. The members of the Cape team are primarily there to say, how do we prevent you from becoming another police incident, whether as a as the complainant or as the person people are complaining about, or the person who is complaining about things that the police cannot address. So, that is the way in which it's a diversion from a criminal justice but it's not a criminal justice response plan I don't really know what that means. There's, there's, there's some language in this again that is not really about about us and some of the definitions are unclear, but is it diversion from criminal justice as in, does it prevent us from having to send somebody to either the attorney's office or at the state's attorney's office or for that matter even to the criminal. Excuse me to the, the CJC and alternative justice. Yes, it absolutely does. Okay, well, whether it's whether it's language specific to Burlington or not it sounds like this work may not. I mean, it may not be worded as such, but it sounds like this work is being done which is which is great. Um, the this having a clinician embedded in telecommunications. You know, I, I didn't really know where to go with that. I, I see Jeff you had said that who makes this decision. I feel like we make that decision. You know, I mean, I mean, these are recommendations. We don't need to necessarily have an opinion we can simply say that. Yeah, that's a great idea, but it's not within our purview to make that if we feel that way. Given all the other recommendations. I'm not sure that this is something again we can, like many of these other items that are in section eight, we can say yeah we agree with that we would advocate for that. But it is not our decision to do that. Nor, given the fact that there is a financial component to this also it's not really within our scope. I know Milo had said need more info what is the status of regional dispatch on what is the status chief of regional dispatch at this time. The board that was created to put it up is still meeting on a semi regular basis. There are plans. There continue to be plans for several municipalities in Chippin County to join in the regional dispatch center, and there is now state money that was not previously available because the state is attempting to divest its responsibility of peace apps. Okay. So, I think this is the same kind of thing from what I'm sorry, Milo go ahead please. Thank you for that update. I kind of think in terms of now that we've had, we've increased the numbers of CSL's and hopefully will consider adding more. I think a certain calls come through my understanding is that some of these calls are coming through being directed in a way where a CSL might be sent out or CSL might be sent out with an officer, or an officer might fall in a CSL. I think there seems to be a mechanism in place with regards to our calls that might need a CSL response. So, I don't know if it ends up being, because I don't know if I would like to think that other departments in the state will start to look at positions like that, but I think we can think of any number of towns that could benefit from these positions because we hope to have more of them throughout the state. So, it might be something where we as a city make a recommendation to those that are looking at the overall regional plan. But I feel like it's something that we're, we're kind of doing already locally so. So, again, you know with 8.9.4, 8.9. You know, I mean, I think it's, I think we I think some of that is it certainly some of it is going to be done when it comes to clinicians, not necessarily embedded in telecommunications but certainly clinicians that will be responding and that will be part of the CAHOOTS program that will be coming this summer. We might be able to simply just say that, you know, this is something, yes, that we are absolutely doing. The considered dedicated co-response team made up of combination of, I mean, I think the other is just simply the same with 8.9.5. That's a lot of people responding or a co-response team but that is to some degree the CAHOOTS model is that there would be a clinician, a social worker, specialized, you know, a specialized response that would include or could include people with lived experience and obviously they would be responsible to, it would be in coordination with UVMMC. So I think that would be, you know, I think that that to some degree is planned to be done. So when the chief says consider, I think to some degree a lot of it may be not as much but a lot of this is where it says medications, you know, paramedics can assist with medication delivery. I mean, to some degree that is being done, I guess, but this is a long recommendation. We have just a couple left. That would be 8.9.6, a traditional co-responder model, a clinician riding with an officer or deputy. It seems as though there was a lot of agreement on this. To some degree it will be done in some ways with the CAHOOTS response. And I think it, I mean, I think that could just simply be a conclusion that, yeah, we're working on that. You know, although the CAHOOTS response does not include a clinician riding with an officer or deputy, it only includes a non-police response. So I'm not really sure quite where to go with that. The police safety, public safety continuity plan did include the hiring of CSLs and CSOs. So I think both of those working together would probably address this recommendation, maybe not specifically but in general. Does anyone else have any comments on this? We're getting ourselves into the last two, three, four, five, I think five recommendations. So we're almost there. The one thing that I did see when we talked about 8.10.7 was the mobile crisis response team, and that is about the CAHOOTS model. So that was sort of exciting to see that because that's really what that is talking about. So I know Milo had mentioned that as well as I had said that. So I think that committee's conclusion on that could simply be that, yes, we are actively working on that RFP do April 1, and are hopeful, very optimistically hopeful of getting that on the street by, I don't want to say a date, but I would say, I would say by the summer of 2022. That's a real, that's realistic, I think. The other, we've got two for five to go. So the fifth to the last one is social service providers in the city of Burlington should submit clear scopes of their work and related budgetary needs to address staffing. You know, I'm not really sure exactly what that meant. And I know the chief had said not within BPD scope to this and the other, as well as the let's see. So in 8.10.1 and 8.10.2. Did the reason you feel that way chief is because this doesn't doesn't apply to Burlington, or because or why is it not within BPD scope. The Burlington Police Department can't make social service providers submit scopes of work and budgetary needs to us, or to the city for that matter. I mean I don't disagree with this notion of what you get from it, but we, I'm, I am not in a position for example to demand that steps or Howard, or, or any number of other entities provide me. I don't work in their budgets and their staffing and their needs for additional resources, etc. This is not a police matter this is something that it has, you know, merit, but it's not within BPD scope. Yeah, I know I wasn't really sure where to go with that. Anybody got any suggestions on our on two of our last five recommendations. Oh, sorry, I was maybe not listening to what you said Karen, but I'm going to try to answer what question I thought you may have asked anyway which is okay. On 8.10.2 I wonder if that should be assigned to the city council I think I'd agree with the chief that that's outside of the police departments go. Yeah, that's a that's if we want to carry it through. You know, and that could be part of that could be discussed as well at the mental health summit and we're going to have all these providers that are there. Maybe there would be an opportunity. They're all social service providers maybe there would be an opportunity for additional conversation. So, I mean what this is really sort of talking about is sort of sort of like what they sort of like what they do at community staff meetings, talking about resources talking about who does what. But they don't submit clear scopes of work. And that really does not happen at, at Comstat meetings. So yeah I mean that could be a referral to be the council. Maybe on both of those items. 8.1 or 8.11.1 was developed telecommunications specific CIT or include telecommunications in a 40 hour CIT. So it sounds to me like that is in the works. I mean, I don't know, I think that next step is actually it's actually a pretty good conclusion. What do you think I'm sorry was that for me I. No, no, no, no, no, I'm actually, I actually, I actually chief was looking at your response to next steps on item 8.11.1 which is line 150. And what I had said was, I think that next step is actually, you know, is actually a very good conclusion that, you know, we agree that obviously dispatchers need to be trained in negotiating in crisis communication and sent to team to. And as you said when BPD is able to identify CIT training, the only thing that could be added to that would be, as Milo has suggested before, is that perhaps a resource would be NACL to try to find that training. So that would be, I mean, that's my suggestion to all of you is that that is a reasonable way of putting in what the chief has said a next step could be can be adapted and I would support that being adapted as the committee's conclusion if others feel that way. I'm supportive, I guess I'm curious as to the, because I don't know the regionalization thing so is that something that's like it seemed like the chief was saying it was contingent on that and. Oh, okay. If it is contingent or if it's just like we're in a wait and see pattern. Is this contingent on some level of dispatchers being regionalized chief. Don't know that it's contingent on it I mean I think in the short term, I have seven dispatchers when I'm supposed to have 12, and I'm not sending I cannot send them to trainings at the moment. So I think with regard to, you know, the issue of, of asking for different kinds of training etc different things for them to do. If regionalization results in a more robust staffing model, which is its pitch. And I think there's a lot more room to start asking for new functions. So, you know, we're going to ask you to do this we're going to ask that you make certain that this call is diverted in x way or y way that you're entering new data into the call immediately that it is extra work for you at the time for the time being, I am low to give extra work to overworked people. Okay. I'm sorry. What do you say. Yeah, yeah, I think then like many of them it's like I think this is a nice to have agree with the next step of finding criteria and. And maybe we put this as a nice to have to look at again in year two or something else. Okay. So we've got two more left. Two long ones. These are all this is also a training. This is a training issue to a large degree. implemented dispatch. Can't really see the bottom of this I don't know for whatever reason I can't get the bottom of it. Yeah, I don't know. I mean this one and the next one the last two are. They seem like a lot of a lot of work. Maybe the, maybe the better way is just simply that, at least at this point, that that these are, these are important, but are fairly labor there. It sounds like to me like they're very labor intensive. And perhaps. I mean the first one is more of an, more of an issue about the, that it could be implemented. You know, as they regionalize. And the second one is really a lot of, you know, a lot of a lot of work. I'm not really sure where to go with either one of them there are last two probably, probably we are both. I see a lot of eyes that are like, Wow, okay, we are, we are in like the home stretch people. Oh, I love to have everybody smile about that. Yes, we are in the home stretch. Two more to go. We can, we can bring it home with these and it's only 717. I had Jeff. Thanks. All right. Well, I didn't know where to put my comments so I put it in the sidebar here, and you're probably not it's not wondering why I put this in but we've discussed. Really, this report of CNA never really addressed our needs which you've heard about throughout this session. And thanks for putting up with me, but I really would like the file product to recognize that we've got some special circumstances downtown. We've got quality of life ordinances that we ought to if we're going to have on the books we ought to do our best to enforce them. To recognize that it's going to take some resources to do this, and that in order to get to for the police to understand how important it is to the city that, you know, city council and commissioners really have to be behind this effort so I hope you understand that this, we do have specific needs that ought to be addressed down here. And in my comments just we and you just recognize that Karen, there's an awful lot of work to do here, if we're going to implement these recommendations. And so, you know, the budget, I hope would increase exponentially to, you know, put more offices on the force and staffing needs are going to grow to do this all correctly. And I think everybody understands that. So, those are my final comments. Thanks. Okay, thank you. Thanks very much. You're, you're, you're, I've enjoyed working with everybody. I've enjoyed working with everybody. Thanks so, thanks so much. I'll, I'll save that for as we walk out the door. Virtually, so to speak, go ahead, Milo. Um, I would just like to remind my friend, Mr Nick that this is a holistic approach for the city of Burlington that does include the business community. And that in fact, some of the things that we've discussed, such as a cahoots model, I feel are going to be a huge help to the downtown area, as well as the rest of Burlington. And I just want him to continue to not just to remember that all of Burlington has needs and if we are following a holistic approach, then that's going to incorporate the downtown area. As well as the community and the greater business community throughout the city. Thank you. Thanks very much. Certainly Jeff, your, your, your comments have been heard and will be on there for the record. And, and not just simply that it's a list of recommendations and we come up with a report, but also that we implement them. So we can't just talk the talk we have to start implementing and walking the talk. I think doing that and doing it in a way that supports everyone, including the downtown, we, we need a downtown we need a vibrant downtown, but also supports everyone else is the whole goal of this. And certainly I believe the goal of the CNA report and recommendations to have a full and functional assessment and be able to move forward with that full and functional assessment. So, I think probably we can come up with some sort of a committee conclusion for 8.112 and 8.121 probably was probably was being a little overly ambitious by trying to think that we could do all of section eight, but for the most part we have, which leaves us with basically a completed report and a lot more work to do in terms of integrating that. That would be my only comment in the couple of minutes that we have left is that the so Jared, if you can get the other section that includes whatever it is now I'm sort of losing it that I think three four and five on whether that was email those to Zariah and hopefully she got them, but yes, I'm happy to work offline with either you Karen or her to make sure we get it all compiled together. Okay, so maybe, maybe after the meeting we could spend a little bit of time. You probably have my number more easily than I have yours if you want to go in if we can maybe just have 10 minutes before, you know, while it's still fresh in our minds. Okay, I'm, I'm sure that we all feel the same to Orrin and to Detective burn to the chief. Thank you so so much for what I believe is probably about 20 hours that we have put on zoom in discussing the recommendations of this report for maybe a little, maybe a little bit more than 20 hours but certainly a lot of time and to the commissioners could not have done this without you. Thanks, Jeff for agreeing to, to help to our two police commissioners, Grant and Gommash. Thank you so so much. I hope you feel, I hope you feel that you've been that you were heard. Certainly, I think you were, but I hope that you all feel that you were and this will be captured for forever. So, you know if there are other things that you think of in the next few days. You know, we're not completely covered or things you come to mind after. I hope you'll let us know. And, and of course, so I thank you very, very much. Couldn't have done this without you it was. I know it's I know it's hard to say it's 730 after two and a half hours but it wasn't so bad. I think I wonder, Jared, thanks for sending me 345 sorry I'm going to do one more. Next step thing. I know that someone was that you Jared had been pulling out things that work with the POA and for training. Was that you Jared. I think originally, Councillor Paul had been putting those once we marked them. Okay, yeah, good. Yeah, so maybe. I'll go through and make sure that we've pulled everything into appropriate tabs. If folks are okay with it, I might also go through and try to make a column that just makes it clear kind of like the chief had where he said who's responsible and try to outline that between BPD, the police commission, the city council. And then make sure that we and then pull that into column so just we each have our marching orders in one place instead of needing to look through the whole spreadsheet again which I'm sure we all don't want to do anymore. So maybe I'll take that on to try to make sure that I'm filling in any gaps that we have. Okay. And then none of us are allowed to look at an Excel spreadsheet for at least 24 to 48 hours. So this has been this started as a pretty simple spreadsheet and it has become a pretty amazing document that we should all be incredibly proud of because there's a lot of work, and we've got a lot of information on here so the next steps are, you know what I had mentioned and then also, you know, the resolution called for a report back to the council. I will over the next couple of days be working on that with the goal of trying to get that done by the 31st of March, which should be the end of the council year I will do my best to be successful with that and then a draft will be a draft will be forthcoming on. I don't think of anything else, you know, by all means please call me and deeply grateful to all of you. Thank you. Thank you so so much. And not that anybody is watching the clock, but it is 727. And I think, unless there are any other items to address that we can be adjourned. Any other items I don't think so. Great. Okay, have a have a wonderful evening and thank you again. Thanks so much everyone really appreciate it. Yes. Thank you.