 Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, the only cannabis show breaking down the myths and history in cannabis. I'm Matthew, seed maker for over a decade and a half and this is my journey into finding my truth in this wild world of cannabis. I invite you to join me and the Canaluminati by strapping into the passenger seat, but be warned it's not always pretty. With the invasion of corporate culture into cannabis it's getting even more muddy, which is why I've made it my mission to have a permanent record before all the history is lost and buried under a pile of cookies. We're the traditional market. Syndicate is a collection of seed makers that want to push back against all the smoking mirrors. In doing so we will continue to ruffle the feathers of those who oppose and my personal mission has become much bigger than myself. Welcome to the cannabis underground. This is the revolution. Welcome to Breeders Syndicate. I'm Matthew with my co-host Thousandfold. Today we're going to be talking about, what are we going to be talking about Thousandfold? We're talking about harvest and post harvest and we have the combined indoor and outdoor crews or at least some of them from both crews. So just to get us started, we wanted to talk about when do you harvest and maybe we can start with little help. When do I harvest? So I'm a little bigger scale at this point. Harvest really needs to be coordinated with a crew to help harvest and also sometimes dry space comes into play. So like on a light depth, if it strains I know and everything's kind of normal. I don't really look at trike heads too much anymore with the strains that I know. I just kind of know when they look finished and generally I really like to let things finish fully. Like I don't want to take you know sour diesel before day 70 and if I can let it ride to 77 I will. But there's other things to take into account sometimes like you know if you've got your harvest crew together and it's day 74 like fine but that works for me. But with like shorter flowering stuff like 60 days nine weeks I got to know the strain and I want to make sure that that bud is fully swollen. At that point I will look at trike heads if I don't know the strain and as long as I see him turn in cloudy and I'm looking for mold you know if I'm not seeing mold I'll let it ride. If I see start seeing like mold start to come in then it's like okay like there's a pointed diminishing returns I need to take it. So who cares if you're harvesting right right moldy buds it doesn't matter. So I mean those things I take into account and then on like the full-term stuff the kind of same thing like I know it's like you know beginning of October it's time to start checking for mold depending on weather and when you're taking in large harvest you know I'll take the colas first because those are the first things that are about to mold get those hanging let the rest of the plant continue to develop and I can kind of just start like mowing through the garden like that by taking tops the first thing and then giving the rest of the plant another week or ten days or depending on dry space. This year was a bit more hectic than usual with all the rain we got in October mold really started to set in at some point and so it was kind of like it it's molding it's ready it's it's not gonna get any more ready and and so that that comes into play and just filling up the dry room getting it all down filling it up again getting it all down filling it up again like you don't quite get to like pick and choose your day based on you know whether you want cloudy heads or amber or what you know you kind of got to go in space and labor is available within range like if you cut early you're just shooting yourself in the foot with quality you're shooting yourself in the foot for weight you got to wait for weight and so it's it's always important not important not to get like trigger happy with taking it down but at the same time like sometimes you can't wait as long as you wanted to because you're not gonna have space or there's rain coming or you know maybe you're not gonna have a harvest crew you know on certain days so I think I don't know there's probably not the answer that most of you wanted but that's like the reality of it is at a certain scale you don't get to pick and choose down to the day I mean if I had a perfect world I would have unlimited dry space and I would harvest all my all my harvesting would be done at night and you know that's just not how it works I think it is really important to point out that beyond the kind of like ideal finishing time for plants there all these other competing pressures that are possible as well whether it's like whether your dry space is ready or yeah I'm curious to hear about other people's like logistical or administrative pressures outside of like ideal finishing time as well yeah I think like on the completely opposite end of that I like with the indoor stuff I do more of like you know small perpetual hoppy kind of situation and so I have just like a two by four tent that I dry in and I just kind of you know I don't know I look at other things like I look at the trichomes sometimes but more so now I kind of look at just like if the plant looks like it's done like and I just mean kind of like is it drinking slower you know does it I mean you know there's there just comes a point like I think like when you run when you're running if you're running the plants enough you get to a point where you just kind of see that like they're not getting better you know what I mean like there's like a point where if you just run them longer like they can go longer and they might get more color or whatever but like for me personally like I just kind of look to when the plant looks like it's kind of drinking slower and yeah I don't know I just think you just kind of get like a vibe for when the plant fills done I know that's like kind of a vague answer but like there's a point to it where it's like you do need to just run the plants a few times and just get an idea of like what when it's in a good range yeah I'm kind of in a similar position I usually tend to take most things 9 to 10 weeks on average and then other things like they'll get bumped to like 12 weeks I'll obviously like look at the flower trichomes I have like a little jeweler's loop nothing too fancy but I try to go for majority milky with like I don't know 25 percent amber or sometimes I'm just like lazy and let things go an extra week longer or kind of just want to see where things go but yeah there I guess I kind of just look for senescence and then as earned mention kind of when like the plant stops drinking or stops benefiting from any additional feed and whatnot but yeah that's kind of some of the general cues that I look at for harvest local I wanted to ask you real quick what are the just generally speaking the recognized like signs of senescence so I kind of like a lot of it kind of starts with like general like fading and stuff like that I like some of the lowers will begin to fade yellow but like the remainder the leaves will sometimes depending the genetic shift colors and whatnot your plants will stop drinking I mean and my experience I haven't particularly seen it in like the case of like either outdoor growing or seed making but like I don't know the the plant just doesn't like really want much more it kind of seems there's no additional bulking either from my experience after a certain point I guess very generally speaking the principle is that it's like metabolism is slowing right overall yeah yeah you can actually you can definitely see it in the plant because it's like an open dialogue with your plant you've been talking with it and communicating with it all year and when it starts slowing down you can definitely you can definitely catch on to it so to earn's point like if if you have a have that into your point too because like if you have that relationship with it like the only thing that really matters when it comes to harvest is the end user and what high they're trying to get from it with the brain chemistry is and where they like it at the end because I mean like there used to be the old tale of like oh better be like 50% amber 50% milky you know and then you learn amber means some degradation to cvn or whatever else comes along with that and you know maybe people prefer like all amber you know maybe like that side of it maybe their brain chemistry maybe that makes them happy and less anxiety but um yeah I don't as I've gotten older and further into this I kind of realized that like the whole idea of an exact flower time on anything is kind of arbitrary yeah it's very subjective there is no right perfectly right or perfectly wrong answer for it it's a very very subjective yeah and for me my like back back when I was growing 12 or 14 clones of the same thing growing that I like my harvest used to be dictated on what the weather was going to do like if I if I looked at the weather and I saw six days of an inch of rain coming for each day and specifically with the cream the cream could be cut at 55 at 57 days and people would still love it everybody everybody loved that stuff but I really liked pushing it to 65 to 66 days where it really shined and put on a little bit of purple and and got its finishing but um and then as the market changed and I'm not growing one clone outdoors and and going for maximum weight I started growing varieties and just letting them run to their full extent not not worrying about the weather and my harvest changed and I picked up a tool that I really enjoy using and uh if people have it in their budget it's just a live view microscope um battery operated or you can charge it and it has a nine inch monitor a little nine inch screen monitor that you can tote around you could take it down to the garden and live view microscope your resin in bigger profiles not just uh you know you can you can zoom in really far you could look at it from a pulled back perspective but that that tool to me looking looking at the plant's maturity has always always been something that I use for my harvesting but lately like from from my perspective and what I've looked at and seen in my garden is I noticed the onset of um amber trichomes usually start on the sugar leaves on the outside and work their way in towards the bud and you know some years workload gets heavy I'm not going to microscope every plant I'm not going to inspect every single bud and a lot of the times I'll wait for that uh march that that forward movement of amber trichomes to just touch the bud so when I can see that it's advanced up the sugar leaf and is now there's a little bit of amber showing on the actual flower itself that's that's just kind of a baseline for something when I want to harvest but before when I was being super meticulous about it yeah like I'd think something that I would aim for is like 75 cloudy maybe just a little bit clear and a little bit amber and then before before all that advanced tech and microscope and shit people would say you know 50 amber 50 cloudy that was like as Matt was saying when I first started growing outdoor that's what everybody on the forums was saying that's what other people were saying and um it was just kind of a general rule of thumb and then yeah I'm trying to think of an example where I think my so I got a brother who grows and he likes letting his resin go amber and he he feels like it gives him a lot more couch flock a lot heavier a lot more medicinal value out of taking care of he's a he's a farrier so he's got aches and pains that I couldn't even begin to describe and uh you know working with horses all day so he wants something heavy hitting that knocks him out something narcotic so he likes letting his plants go full amber and uh as a testament anytime I smoke his stuff it's it's strong stony stuff every single time and it could be due to him letting his plants mature pretty full you know and it goes back to subjectivity you know what you want uh changes for for when you should harvest yeah so potentially this decision can be quite a complex decision right because you have all these like subjective preferences your relative experience with those particular plants you have these other competing pressures whether or not they're like environmental for you outdoors or they have to do with like your workers if you have a team of people working for you and when they're available and when you have the right dry space and it is really interesting I didn't really think about it from that point of view like that practically when you are making the decision there are all these other practical things they come into play as well yeah and you can always make a plan but executing the plan it almost never seems to work out the way you want it especially when it comes to harvest you know you always you always think it's going to happen this way and it doesn't lay out in the exact perfect way that you'd wish it you know something comes up you know family member shows up or something happens on the farm and everybody has to stop everything and you know well your workload for that day is done and you know yeah you got that now you got to compile that on the next day and when you're dependent on the scale of your operation sometimes you don't have that extra day is worth the work to to to offer especially with weather impending and and other issues did anyone want to speak to this idea of like preference when it comes to harvest and like particular experiences where you've diverged from that like sort of guideline of you know amber trike balance you know are there particular plants that you any of you grow that like you know that's not going to be the case um specifically last year I had a black cherry soda seed from a random seed company that I just tried and about week eight before like she still had another week and a half to mature I'm looking at it and I'm smelling the plant and I'm looking at the bud structures and I'm looking at the resin content and I can kind of just tell it's not going to be flower that I'm going to smoke and that I'm going to enjoy and what I'll what I did is I checked to check the live scope of it saw the resin was all clear and I turned it all into fresh frozen I had a buddy who who would take it and turn it into live resin and I could have let it mature further but the I had the turf profile that it had and its immaturity before it had its chance to fully mature was was decent on its own but I could tell that the flower wasn't something that I would desire or something that I would be able to get rid of so I you know took it all and turned it into live live resin and it was it it it got consumed way more actually you guys got to try some of that at the at the party that was some of that from that plant the live resin that you guys got to try that uh that when that was a shot call that I made a plant instead of letting it mature fully I took it early and and use the live resin off of it and it was much more enjoyable that way than I think the the actual flower would have been I mean that's a that's a good general point about like maybe knowing what ideal final form the product will take like you know are you if you are doing extracts does it change this decision right yeah broadly like do any of you who are you know into resin and stuff have any thoughts on this does it change your decision in or I don't know washing or anything all of my all of my concentration has been like low scale like really small personal use so and I'm still just kind of messing around with it playing around with bubble bags so I don't have any I don't have any personal expertise on it um yeah we need peaches here yeah I was just gonna say we need we need peaches to come and talk about filling us fill us in on that yeah I was just gonna say I don't I don't make any special hashes but I assume there's a reason why like people cut their plants down extremely early like you know to get like nice white hash and stuff like that I don't know because that looks pretty um but yeah I'm not entirely I'm a last person to talk about that stuff I I do I have been told by uh rosin rosin makers to uh I've been told both by people making rosin like don't cut it down early cut it down when it's mature because they don't care as much about color they say color doesn't really matter on quality and then other people are like it does matter let's let's chop it 10 days early let's chop it a week early um because it'll be lighter colored and that'll help sell it because for some reason I guess the custies want you know that clear you know really light colored rosin as opposed to um any anything that's darker or more amber um again I'm not really a rosin smoker so I don't have a preference but I think he just mentioned that she didn't think it was good like she felt like it was purely like a fashion thing or like a you know just what people expected kind of thing I definitely in small scale personal use like kind of stuff but you know like I I have for press and stuff so I've done a bit of it and like just from like the general vibe of people like talking to people that are really into rosin it seems like um uh the harvesting for color and stuff is literally just like something that has been pushed by like big companies like 7 10 labs and stuff like that that you know make rosin and sell it to you know dispensaries and stuff like that and that generally you know good plants make like like stuff that you would want to smoke and flower is what you want to make rosin up yeah in two years ago I grew some lemon parties and I had uh s ones I grew five of them and I had two that were fairly similar they weren't identical but side by side they were pretty hard to tell apart and uh I let one of them go like 70 60 70 percent amber I let it mature and I let the other bit the sister plant next to it I pulled it a little bit earlier and uh I remember pressing rosin from both of those plants and continually getting people telling me that I should put a warning label on the rosin that I let go 80 to 90 percent amber trichome there was I continually had people saying hey man that that stuff is too strong my husband was passed out on the couch for two hours drooling on himself you know I had I had people telling me that that I should warn them about giving them that specific rosin from that so there's a little anecdotal evidence about you know choosing to let the resin mature a little bit longer for some of the concentrates but that being said I see more people want the either live resin or fresh press stuff that's a little more battery a little more white has stronger turf profiles people seem to be more interested in that than rosin that packs a heavy punch at least from and from what I can see I put myself in that category um usually like when I'm assessing up until like maybe even I don't know a month or two ago I would find myself assessing extracts by their scent like their inherent scent of just smelling them you know like oh this one's super turfy but as I found out a lot of these like the scent is only like released once you activate it like some of them are real turfy but you just don't inherently smell that and I think since it's like most people's first experience with hash is you pick it up and the first thing you do is smell it that's probably why that's a big deal and seeing it obviously I guess they make machines now to strip the color out of hash which blew my mind that that's a thing yeah and so they're I think they kind of push this narrative that it's like clean quote unquote that if your hash is um clear like white like lighter colored that it's cleaner um and I don't know you can interpret clean however you want to you know I'm not really sure what that means but um yeah I mean I think the general vibe is like if you're going to make hash like grow your plant and to its maximum potential make it the best that you can and that will make the best concentrate that you can make the old theory of shit in shit out yeah well it feels like we're sort of like rounding out this section on like harvest timing I wanted to ask if y'all had any good stories about you know that whether like uh horrifically early horrifically late why I don't know anyone like a bad a pearly harvest or like a forced late harvest or something like that yeah I guess so yeah uh and was there anything you could do to like you know uh mitigated in any way or I don't know soften the blow or I'm so used to like early seed harvest as opposed to just like flower or late flower harvest like getting the jump on harvesting seeds was always my issue like you see them forming and sometimes they look more mature than they actually are and like you know in the early days I would just pick seeds off the top and look at it be oh it's brand mature okay hack and then like you hack it all down and there's like three mature ones on top and the rest are just shit but as far as flower it's kind of different yeah yeah I mean I'd say definitely bad harvest what's your worst do you think like out of all the the worst harvest was a long time ago um it was due to a cold room and I had switched from soil to cocoa and it was the wind the winter it came it was my first run in cocoa uh the plants were off the floor but I the room was still just too damn cold at night especially and then it wasn't heating up like it had been in the summertime during the day so uh and it was also the first winter run at this place so yeah the roots were just cold the plants were just like all leaf with like you know just skinny skinny narrow buds um real bummer um real but my first but that was my first bad harvest where like yield was like crap quality was crap um it was also my last harvest at that place I've been there for like a year but yeah I mean lesson learned um um and uh moved on but like yeah man environment was super I mean I was I was fairly new to growing at that point I was still maybe like six years into growing now maybe like five years four years but it was my first time just dealing with bigger rooms and different environments this was a basement grow so it was just cold in general so like it would never you know lights were on at night but it still wouldn't get that warm in there and then the lights were off all day and it would just be freezing in there yeah even during the day so I don't know that was my worst harvest ever for sure I mean that's not like super obvious to a lot of people like that you know if it gets super cold you're on your roots that you know it's going to get a lot more leafy and thinner shitty buds and you know a lot of us are used to dealing with the heat you know right that's what I was dealing with all summer in that place and working on heat issues and trying to keep it cool during the night cycle and cool during the days or during the um light cycle and man uh yeah cold cold roots um I would say is more important than ambient temperature is your root temperature yeah they're just not gonna metabolize nutrients they're not gonna dry out this fast easier to over water sure um just all those things it's it's more important and I found that even to this day and in the greenhouses is I don't care how cold it is outside as much as I care about the root temperature and uh and getting that up and figuring out how to manipulate that it's it's it's massively more important than ambient temperature as long as you're talking cold now if it's too hot that's different yeah like yeah ambient temperature definitely matters but as far as coldness goes like I mean it can be 55 degrees ambient temperature but if the roots are at 45 you're you're fucked you know a lot of the questions I get uh in dms about harvesting are can I save like that my room is like 109 you know can I do anything with these buds and I'm just like like you know like it's kind of hard yeah yeah yeah yeah I was just gonna add that uh ever since I transitioned to leds that's like the first time I had to like actually warm my gross space at night especially like here in the midwest where it gets really like fucking cold um and yeah I don't know it just it comes with its own set of problems and and that's one of them that I noticed as well it's just like having to keep the rooms warm at night relatively speaking so you don't run into those into those issues yeah I've never lived anywhere where I needed a heater ever in a grow so that growing in a cold situation to me would be totally counterintuitive like I'm always trying to make it cooler you know so what's a dangerous so what would gel determine to be a dangerous root some temp a little how you mentioned like 45 is that already like quite extreme is there a yeah that would be way too cold it might vary in green between greenhouse and indoor I might be able to get away with a little bit cooler um in a greenhouse as long as I'm getting good sunlight but I would I would say like 55 55 is is good enough I mean you could probably work with 50 but 55 and then like in summertime it'll be over 60 65 um and that's that's fine I think I really don't check my health is conversion so what I just had to do a Celsius conversion okay that's that's quite well yeah sorry I can't help you with that okay yeah now we're Americans we don't use those silly things baronite all day do you remember how like when people wanted during the the first purple craze like people really like we were like feeding ice water to their roots yeah yeah I remember that ice and people pouring that's like during the flush that's during the flush the last couple weeks um I never did that um but I did it work uh you know not really not particularly um it had to be already like a perm per I was trying to do like og cushion stuff like of course it wasn't going to go purple you know no yeah they I heard of that but then people got air conditioners and I was in the Bay Area at the time where where I was at in the Bay Area nobody had air conditioners in their house because it was never more than 75 degrees the same and uh and it would cool off at night always even in the summer so but yeah then people started getting air conditioners for their indoor setups and could really turn the tents down on them and I think that's all you really really need along with a good flush just the flushing alone brings the color out yeah it does and then you just add cooler temps at night and I think that's where you really get them to purple up strong and yeah and uh yeah the real real techniques for purple and there's there's a couple of techniques out there I've probably forgotten a few there's but I don't I had a dude any of it anymore they got I mean with with genetics now like I I can light that stuff where it's 95 degrees out every day and it still purples up oh yeah yeah yeah people people have figured that out genetics wise have you ever heard about the car battery hooked up to the uh plant to shock it purple what the fuck yeah yeah that's that's when I had actually heard like the guy I think he interpreted shocking the plant as far as temperatures and in his brain he thought it meant shocking we thought it literally meant shock wow we talked about this in the I think me or in local and you find me Dan talked about like different forms of violence being applied to plants and like what that means that's definitely one definitely one nothing too I've messed around with just like you know in that same vein is um in the winter time it gets really cold here you know so I'll I've like vented like pulled like fresh air in from outside into my temp you know like super cold air um I don't know I'm not really sure if it you know I'm not I don't have enough experience to be like this does this you know what I mean it feels like you're doing something though so it seems like a cool thing to try I don't know I think that sums it up but yeah that's about how it feels you know what I mean yes the same reason I put copper coils in my shit this year outdoor you know why not all right I'm gonna move us on I'm gonna move us on too how do you harvest i.e. so I think Kersh or the Giants had a couple of like questions here like what time of the day you know and I guess for indoor growers it's like do you think that it's better to chop in the dark and this and that so yeah we can move on to that that's also the like do you wet trim do you dry trim like all that stuff all that good stuff but body washing yeah body washing okay who do I get to start this let's go for Kersh or the Giants to start this one yeah yeah for sure so um for me like what what I've noticed in my garden is like if I go out to my plants and I try to tie in them up let's say in the the evening time or in the middle of the day hottest part of the day or in the evening time and I'm tying up some branches and I get a little too too handsy with one and it snaps it's real brittle and it just it just cracks I've noticed that that plasticity is it has more plasticity after she's just had her water her her drinking so in the morning there's there's two times that I've noticed in my garden one is like maybe an hour before direct sunlight actually hits them they drink they soak up they all perk up and then the sun comes and then they endure the heat of the day and then on my trail camera through my time lapse videos I saw right around midnight 1 a.m. in the morning they'd all do the same thing they'd all perk back up they had all the fan leaves that lift up and it looked like there was a second drinking phase going on during the middle of the night and um so in my mind I like to chop after the plants have had a chance to drink so whether that be the morning just before the sun hits them or late at night after they've had a chance to get a drink in them the branch plasticity they don't break as easily they're not as brittle and in my mind I think that there's just more hydration there's more fluid there's more water going up the plant and so in in hang what we most of us like to do is we like to get a longer hang out of our plants so the more moisture that you have in your branches and in your fan leaf the longer hang you'll get out of out of your cure and so so to me I'm maximizing how much uh how I can slow down the process of the moisture in the chlorophyll evaporating out of my plants that are all hanging on lines in my room so I uh I've been aiming to harvest after I've noticed that the plants have had their drink when when there's more plasticity in the branches when they don't just snap and are super brittle like I noticed in the heat of the day or uh or in the late evenings before they've they've had a chance to rest and drink um those are the times that I like to pull my plants down um as far as wet trimming and dry trimming I used to I used to take a lot of fan leaf off um before like I didn't have any real set methods I'd read on the forums and I'd talk to my brother and ask other people what they do and everybody you know it's very subjective everybody has their own specific way and they think that their way is the best way and I just started playing around with different methods and what I've noticed is uh harvesting bigger sections of the plant uh and leaving more fan leaf on gives me a longer cure uh it lets me hang on the line longer instead of like a a nine or a ten day hang on the line it'll push it out to 12 or 14 days hanging on the line before I want to go in there and start bucking it down and taking it off the line and getting it ready to go either in a a big jar or a big old turkey bag depending on how big my plant is that I'm I'm processing um and then as far as like uh there's a little bit of a topic we want to talk about people are thinking about bud washing but for me like you know people dunk in their plants and cleaning it off before harvest like I do a lot of uh microscoping and I spend a lot of time looking in on the plants on the flowers on the leaves on the bud and I don't see near enough dirt I don't see near enough insect uh shells or frass or or husks I don't see enough stuff on the plant to warrant doing any washing hydrogen peroxide dipping or any of that stuff that I've seen people doing so as for me personally in my garden I get enough late season rains that it does a good job of cleaning the plants off from the from the ambient dust that that settles on them how about you little hill um I mean ideally I would do things different but yeah I'd like to night harvest harvest in the cool air you know I just think that's it's easier on people I know vineyards down south of me though they do a lot of harvesting at night time and a big reason they do it yeah there's like they're dealing with the different levels of the sugar and the acid but like a huge reason they do it is just heat like having the workers out there all day in the heat is rough and and and for them it's also a marathon it's not a sprint so you can't you can't beat the shit out of your crew you know on a tough three-day harvest and then you know do it again you know and again for like you know six weeks um so yeah we start early in the morning um and we harvest all day um just depending on what's going on we might take a break if it's if it's super hot like we'll take a break in the middle of the day for like two three hours just during the hottest part of the day and then harvest till tarps at seven um but you know yeah I don't wash anything um I do like the plants to be I don't want the plants to be parched at all um whether they got watered that morning or the day before as long as they're they're good um I'm fine as long as they're not droopy and limp um I'm fine with that um you know packing it in being efficient with space is really important um but uh yeah I I've heard of people letting the plants dry out like in in their you know pots or you know like giving them some I've I've heard of that um I've never done it neither it just doesn't seem right to me to have a stressed plant it's not gonna like whatever potential it has of you know cannabinoid content terpenes I think it I think it would be best to catch it in the morning when it's nice and healthy and hydrated just that's just what makes sense to me I don't have any data to back any of this up but my intuition tells me that yeah um so I've heard I've heard you know drought stressing at the end can help bring out more you know maybe that's true maybe it's not um but I mean if they die on the branch isn't that like oxidizing your bud like because it's out I mean it would that process starts in the sun basically that's you definitely don't want light working for that matter right totally um uh one thing about the bud washing is like I mean that shouldn't be a thing at all for indoor growers but no and honestly I don't know anybody that does it on any type of outdoor um um though I would question why they do it but I have heard it actually it increases oxidation and your shit turns brown faster I've just heard that um I don't know it for a fact but you know I've heard it from people that I guess tried it I don't know like I mean peroxide is gonna oxidize like yeah my definition totally it's an oxidizer so yeah yeah I don't I don't know about that um you know what so all this all this weed that I've been getting from dispensaries all looks super hella oxidized and I just realized that like oh shit that's probably why you know like it might just be old uh that for sure is it outdoor or indoor well it's sold as it's sold as indoor in my lars but it was definitely outdoor like part part of the time some of this stuff is definitely outdoor I know uh like it's it's it's November you can look at harvest sometimes they have the harvest date on the package you can look at the harvest date the harvest dates were so close to when they were bought that it was just like okay and I'm looking at oxidized weed and going hmm hmm this is it none of this makes any sense yeah what was local gonna say I was gonna say that a lot of people remediate it with like x-rays and shit like that um I mean at least that's what I've seen here in my state in the legal market so they're doing it there the irradiation yeah so they do it to lower like TYM counts and bacterial counts um I've been getting a lot of questions on Reddit about that in the Australian Reddit ask me anything I'm doing and like they're like hey so what's your opinion on irradiated weed and I was like huh right yeah I mean it just like overall kills the character of the weed in my opinion but it like gives some clean results you know what I mean and that's what matters in the legal game set and you can grow a third test to go out and smoke it yeah I mean what happens if you smoke a bacteria any type of bacteria nothing I mean right it's like we've bought weed like that's likely been worse than what we see like on these panel tests you know that fingernails come in my brick we man yeah I'm totally fine I don't know it's just people want to make money I guess like I don't know local do you want to keep going too much yes I agree I was going to invite local to kind of carry on and just talk about some of the other questions that y'all have answered about like when do you chop and you know trim yeah um so one I kind of like to chop my stuff and the more like not the morning but like once the lights kind of go off so like that's my morning I guess um just because like you know I mean not directly after it's turned off but once like kind of all the heat has emitted from the room and stuff because there's like residual heat from like the lamps and stuff but um yeah I kind of um I don't want my plant to be entirely dry but I don't want it to be sopping wet um but I I like to do little things to kind of prolong the amount of time that it's going to take to dry so like I won't like a wet trim or anything like I'll leave all the leaves on you know I mean I have an ac in the room so that really helps keep temperature cool that wasn't the case at my last place but that's like a game changer it's kind of added like five it could add up to five days to your dry if you want it to you know depending on how cold you get um but also like it was my summer so it was cool but it was also like not like humid but it wasn't as dry as it should have been per se um um but yeah really anything to minimize the amount of uh or maximizing the amount of time that it takes to dry um and I'll usually kind of um judge that once like the branches not like branches but like the the buds will snap from the main branch itself because like I find that that main branch holds some moisture um and I don't want that to be entirely dry because that just like kind of signifies that the buds that kind of dry out I would say they dry out faster than the actual stock um but like I don't want my stock to be too dry but like yeah I don't know um I like them to have snappage a little bit of crunch to the bud um but yeah um what's your take on washing I've never had to wash but before um I could see why people would do it outdoor like say there's like dust storms or like you know the the fires and shit in california like all the smoke and dust particles like that can make a need for wash but I don't know I liked what um when we were talking about this earlier with Chris the giant said and if you want to repeat that a little bit because the giant's talking about the logic behind dipping in the same barrel yeah so like in in the examples that I've seen um washing it's generally a guy washing all of his plants from the whole harvest in a single like 40 or 50 gallon all of barrel drum and in my mind when I see that my first thought is okay your your argument is you're washing dust off and you're washing insects and and uh frass and husks and wings and shells of insects that have died and left carpuses on your on your thing and my first thing is I'm watching these guys and they're dunking them back to back to back and you're not giving enough time for the dust or the dirt to settle so it's it's basically a slurry of dirt now your your water hydrogen mix or whatever medium mix that they've done um and then the second thing is the corpses though that insect frass is going to float to the top and so every time you dunk your branch in you're redunking it on a pile of dead corpses and then mixing it in a dirt slurry just the whole the whole logistics behind it never made any sense to me every time every time I've seen those videos or those pictures it looks like they're just all dunking it into one barrel as fast as they can handing it to the person and then putting it on the line and that's just crazy to me another thing I noticed in these like the red amas were that a lot of people don't understand that like before they're big like us you know let's say someone has a question about you know growing 20 acres outdoor and they're you know they have questions about you know like should I you know dry this or cure this in glass or blah blah blah and it's like you didn't think about where you're going to dry that shit before you grew it like that should be a major major major thought where the fuck am I going to dry all this shit you know but most people it seems like a lot of these chads that started the hemp you know shit and got into it they didn't even take that into fucking account like where where are we going to dry it do we got like a garage that could be enough you know like I don't know that's something I've noticed too is people don't take that that's that's been many pot growers failure of harvest is not accounting for where they're going to dry it or like drying it in carports or yeah hemp farmer some of them thought they could just cut it and let it dry outside you know some of them some of them thought that they could roll it there was some company going out there convincing people you could just roll it wet into like this giant roll like a bail like a sale of hay or something nice yeah I believe it I remember that company's not around anymore because it's talking work yeah but like I've seen people fail I've seen people fail with yielding more than they thought they would yeah and and not accounting for dry space and just having shitty dry space like having to put up carports to dry in yeah and then just not having the like gumption to realize that maybe you should try and insulate it or you know you're not even using that space efficiently to hang as much as you can in there and and uh it it's it's definitely failure not knowing where you're going to dry and that and that can happen indoors too you sure you you know you you trick out your little your grow tent or your room and then you realize that like oh I got to spend 10 more days hanging it in here because it's going to stink at my house if I move it anywhere else and or uh yeah you need like a separate dry tent you need you know just like you need a separate veg area yes if you want to if you really want to to to to repack that room as fast as possible how much how much space would you give like let's say you're growing let's say it's a 10 lighter right how much space would you want to incorporate for this 10 lighter for your drying space what would you guys recommend I would say about a third of that space so like if you're in a I mean what's what's a 10 lighter like a 10 by 20 room or something like that yeah something like that um that's that's what 200 feet 200 square feet so a third of that would be like 66 square feet yeah because if like you figure you have one canopy uh over 10 lights but if you stack it three high then you should be able to get away with certain space right absolutely yeah yeah it's a good rule of thumb too there's probably a better calculation on that um I I really just kind of like got a ballpark it like I don't even have any real calculations on on on space like I know when I have enough and I know when I don't yeah and I kind of base it off of old rooms old dry barns like okay I had this many lines or this much like like linear feet of line to hang on I need that same to hang you know one greenhouse or two greenhouses and that's kind of how I've gone in the past general ballpark guessing and and I definitely didn't have enough space hang in dry room set up I just wanted to let urin answer the questions first because then the next section is going to be all along like the actual drying like quote-unquote cure process um okay so urin did you want to speak to the earlier questions about chop times I don't I don't think I have very much to add I think you guys hit all the points that I would hit as well as far as cutting the plants I mean you know I just want them to look brick I'm ready and I you know I like to just be prepared have everything there and I want to be able to be like cutting them and hanging them and all that stuff done as fast as possible I don't want to be messing around with the plants that's the only thing I would add otherwise that's pretty much it okay nice okay sorry little hell yeah we can now talk about like the actual you know drying and you know quote-unquote curing dry room setups all that yeah this is fascinating so I'll I'll just say that I do my drying in the fridge uh some of you know that I you know am under like quite serious spatial constraint so I can only flower a few things at a time I can keep a few things like a few more things than that but I can really only flower a few things at a time um and so I actually dry my stuff in the fridge uh which some of you know about um and on the discord like there's a whole channel about drying in the fridge and what that is um but just wanted to mention that as like a point of difference here I was also going to just answer that question Matt asked about like dry size to like the size of your room on a much smaller scale uh because I don't have a 10 lighter I just have a one lighter in a five by five and uh I go into a two by four with that which I think pretty much falls into the a third of your space um as well so I think that's like a really great rule of thumb just to hit that nail on the head again yeah yeah the third of your space is a great rule of thumb but also like continually at me and me and little hill we're talking about this just last night is like when you when you're sizing up like if you have the option to build your your dry room always add like another 20 or 25 percent on top of what you think you need like every single time I've set up a grow room and or I picked a spot in the basement and I set up lines I'm looking at it and like yeah this is good and then harvest comes and like shit I could always use like two or three more lines there's there's never been a time where it's like I couldn't have used the extra space so if if you have the ability to I would say build it bigger than your initial thoughts are and and it you'll see the benefits of it I'm almost guarantee it the any of us here have a different opinion than drying slower and deliver it is better like I know the one of the episodes I interviewed someone and they said they like to use a dehydrator and does anybody else have a different method than slow and deliver it I mean I've heard of people using freeze dryers for flour but I've not had it I've never had it never had any experience with it um but I think that that is something that's out there as far as a super fast option but you know yes low and slow is the name of the game I think yeah I'll add that that's kind of the whole point of the fridge thing as well I know that for some people it's like a weird fringe idea and I don't I personally can't say anecdotally that I know it's any better than hanging but it's kind of what I'm constrained to doing at the moment but the principle is the same the longer you can draw out that process the better yeah you're it's an exchange process and the slower the exchange process of moisture and chlorophyll is the better the end product is and that's that's not I'm not saying this is scientific this is just what I've noticed from my flowers from my garden that I hang and I trim if they have a if if they have a longer chance to hang on the line before branches are brittle enough to snap clean with no fibers I'm there people say oh yeah it snaps clean and I'll snap it but there's still a fiber hanging on I'm like that's not clean no it needs to be an actual clean snap like if you held up a light and you moved the and you moved a branch too much you're gonna see some THC flutter off into the air like it should be at a point where it's that that far gone in my opinion before but at least that's what I like when I'm trimming my stuff down yep I mean little we're just talking about this last night as well there there's something that people don't uh don't consider is you'll go into your hangroom and a lot of people use these totes I see them everywhere this 55 gallon totes with the yellow lids they'll take their stuff off the line stuff them into the totes put a lid on it and say yeah I'm gonna trim this in an hour or two and then they don't get around till it's tomorrow and that time it's spent in the tote rehydrated it and now you're working with a little bit wetter weed than what you would normally like to trim with like people you know so you can think that it's fully out of moisture throw it all in a tote and then it starts to rehydrate on itself a little bit because it's now working with a smaller atmosphere it's now it's now has more moisture in a smaller area um yeah so for me I've always aimed for lower and slower um and it's just benefited me and the last six or seven years I've had the awesome benefit of when I chop like the when I'm chopping it's also simultaneously raining outside so my barn gets a little moisture boost boost and the the ambient moisture fills the barn and then also affects the the grow room that I had built inside inside of the barn so or the hang room that I built inside of the barn yeah I mean and that's for me that's been a benefit with the using my like using like a two by four tent in my scenario I it's like a perpetual thing and I have the environment pretty much controlled at a certain place that I wanted out so I kind of just let myself hang for you know like it it may take say two weeks to dry out but I'll let it hang another week or two just hanging in there and then um and then you know when I'm ready to that like in like for me what that allows me to do is like just slowly work through each plant and as far as like trimming however you want to you know do that and then I go into like I like the mason jars that have um that are like amber colored you know to like cut out light degradation um obviously if you're doing a ton of stuff that's probably not they're like five dollars a jar now so it's probably not great but for my scale it's you know I really like them so no dehydrator tech for you or no dehydrator I mean I'm shooting for as long as possible but I'm not that when any weird like burping or anything like that generally speaking I I'm just trying to leave it alone as much as possible you know so we all agree generally that longer and slower is better so with that what's the average in your room setup like if and there's also there's also a little asterisk to this question as well because I my personal hang room is like a 25 by 30 room and if I were to hang let's say only three plants on one end of the room and don't and I don't fill the rest of the room it's a totally different exchange of then then if I were to stuff the room completely yeah so um yeah there there's there's a little bit of a nuance to discuss there about um the in your your hang room will act different depending on how many plants you have stuffed in there and that's something that you should plan in your harvest it depending on if you're harvesting everything at once or if you're staggered harvesting this is something that you should and not only that but let's say like in my room I have 14 or 15 lines and I put them in at the back and I harvest perpetually and and hang them in sometimes the plants that are done in the back when I bring in a fresh set of plants for a on row number eight or nine those back plants will get a little moisture refresh and so the question I want to pose is generally what if if there's no outside environmental factors about how many days does it take in your room before branches are snapping off clean and you're ready to buff down for me it's about 12 to 13 and if I have rain outside from the environment it's it's usually a couple days extra on top of that sometimes I'll get 14 14 days out of the hang before I'm going in there and saying hey I should I should start bucking this stuff down for me it's a 14 to 8 like anal 21 somewhere in there for indoor I think I'm more like I'm like 10 to 14 um the the I've I'll definitely rehydrate the room at some point if I if I like fill one half up wait seven days then fill the other half up it's going to be longer than 10 for that first half that happens all the time to me and I don't mind it it just slows it down so I'm fine with it I mean I'd like to get things moving but you know you can't really brush that part yeah so yeah 10 to 14 I'd say I don't want them to get too dry on the line it depends a lot on whether like what kind of plant you cut like do you have a lot of thick colas or are they like longer extended branches with just golf balls of them because obviously those dry a little faster yeah and and I pack I pack my weed in so much that like I might have you know six to ten lines vertically going in each section six six to nine lines deep so it's like a wall of weed with another wall of weeds nine inches behind it and another wall of weed because I'm only cutting like maybe 12 inch to 18 inch branches at the most yeah that's what I like that's the size branch everything is whether it's a lower branch or a or a center cola so you know packing it in like you know my my humidity skyrockets up to possibly up to 80 and then you know just ticks down every day after that usually at the beginning I'll run an extra dehumidifier or something just to cut it a little bit faster to get it into the 60s yeah and then after that I slow it down because I don't want it to get you know into the low 50s or 40s at least not for too long right at the end that's fine but you know if you leave it in that kind of like low humidity for too long it gets brittle yeah and honestly I think you're just yeah I think I think I don't think you're you're helping yourself you're you're probably you're probably evaporating terpenes at that point and the temperature wise I'm always in the 60s usually mid to high 60s um I know a lot of people say that's not ideal but bullshit like I've I've cured I've I've dried in all types of room uninsulated um in wintertime you know uninsulated in summertime uh I've done it all different types of ways and there's all different types of types of tricks to slow it down but that but like you know I used to use an evaporative cooler to cool my dry barn and it worked like it would drop the temperature in there 10 degrees and it would add a little bit of humidity to yeah summertime when humidity's you know 20 25 percent in the day like that that extra humidity was almost nothing but it was still something yeah and it still was able to slow it down and cool it down and uh you know I still I still dried good weed in that barn in summertime and then it was the exact opposite problem in wintertime or in fall you're you're trying to heat it but you're also trying to you got to have it warm enough in there to run the dehumidifiers because your dehumidifiers might only work down to 50 degrees or something and uh you you know it's much cooler colder than that at night so I don't know just always uh I have a climate controlled barn now so that's like that's really nice it's nice it's also it's also like it was also a new thing to learn because I was I'm so used to hustling it and and back in the day like that trying to keep your barn warm enough like that definitely you were slow drying and it was nice because it really worked out well even though you're you're you're hustling it the whole time so working with uh air conditioners and and large dehumidifiers was also something to learn because you can overdry your shit pretty quick oh yeah if you don't stay on top of it and uh so that's one thing I like to do is as soon as I think it's ready there's moisture meters you can buy I don't use one anymore before the fire I did I lost it in the fire and I just never replaced it um they they're used to uh measure the moisture of lumber or firewood yep and if you really want to get anal about it you can put the two little prongs on that moisture meter on the stem on the actual bud stem though just to see where you're at so you can have a number and I know people have used these things for uh for helping their workers get the feel for it oh so they can look at a number instead of just getting a feel for it or get the feel for it and then look at the number to corroborate like okay that's what 10% or 12% feels like um those were kind of helpful for training people at one point I don't really do it anymore I feel like the people I have doing it have have the feel for it and I've showed them and and they understand the whole thing about like what Kush was saying I'm talking about where you might have crispy buds and your stems might snap a little bit or maybe they don't at all but just because your buds are crispy doesn't mean your plants dry in fact you want to slow that process down because all your water is moving from the main stem to the to the secondary stem to the bud stem to the flower and then out into the atmosphere and as soon as you seal it up everything's going to redistribute it's all the moisture is going to redistribute evenly in that sealed environment and so you can all that so all that little extra water is going to move through the flower into the atmosphere and so that flower is going to get mushy again and if you're trying to store weed for any period of time if you store it wet it's going to oxidize way faster it's going to it's going to smell like hay it's going to turn brown fast and you just did all that work for nothing so figuring out when to seal it and it can be used as a trick to get just like a little bit of that extra water out of the stem is just to seal it overnight and then boom open it the next day and draw it out you know flowers might go from mushy to crispy that's fine you only sealed it for like you know 12 hours and then seal it up again and then check it 12 hours later to make sure you're still crunchy and then you know you're good and you can do it again if you're really trying to dry it out and store it for long periods like if you know it's going to be stored for multiple months yeah um which is something a lot of outdoor growers do is they don't sell their they don't sell their harvest till you know six months later after they harvest it yeah and that's a good way to keep the color keep the smell um but it's it's definitely at scale it's definitely a trick it's a lot of extra work if you fuck it up because then you have to go burping you know 50 bins and who's got space even to put 50 bins out you know space is a premium and and uh so like hitting it and checking it to make sure you did hit it the next day is is really really important and once they get sealed up in those bins you got to make sure your outside the bin environment is not extra moist or extra cold um you of course you want it cool but you don't you got to watch the humidity yeah um I think outside humidity only really matters if it's too high because they will it's not really sealed like it's got time everything's going to equalize between your room your and what's inside your bin because there's not really really sealed so you want to keep all those things in check so it doesn't re go regaining moisture which which which it absolutely will do if you let it get you know more humid in your room or cold um also if you're sealing in plastic jars are great that's why jars are great because they're impermeable you're not going to regain any moisture but if you're in turkey bags like you need three turkey bags to actually have it sealed for moisture and smell for that matter and if you're vacuum sealing you need at least two layers yeah I was going to say I I've seen dudes like harvest and what they'll do is like you know stuff it all in those really thin plastic like zip lock bags like the sandwich baggies that aren't for a freezer but like real thin and they'll sell it like that and I you know you get it you put it in your jars and then all of a sudden a day later everything's like moist and because there's still some air exchange in those thin baggies so keep that in mind too like if people are putting shit in thin baggies like it's not it's not a good measure for if it's dry or not there's a lot of moisture that can be kept in there and appear dry there are two things that I wanted to talk about um one of them is um the different types of bud and the preference in how wet or how dry I want them when I'm trimming them for example before before we go on to this question can we hear from like local and about yeah absolutely for local um I was just going to say I really don't have much to add here um if if kush was gonna um go on ahead and speak but I'm also not speaking for earned yeah yeah I mean it's kind of the same I wanted to echo just what kush said about like um how many plants you have in your dry cuts because I'm sorry my dogs are talking if you guys hear that um but um the what I used to try to like harvest out of my 555 and dry in my 555 and um like as your plants lose a little bit of waterway you know after like the first day or so it's like they don't take up that much room in there and I found that even if I would like dial my environment in like on my you know via controllers and stuff um it would still they would dry out too fast and I just like never could get a handle on it and then when I went to a smaller drying space it like really stepped my game up with um drying my plants and stuff so that was like such a big thing that I learned early on and I just kind of wanted to echo it because it really did help me a lot yeah I also wanted to like just give a little very short outline on what it's like for me to dry in the fridge just because I think some people might be interested maybe you guys think it's ridiculous I'm not sure I've been arrested yeah I want to hear about it I I mean the principle is the same uh so the what changes is that obviously you're not going to put your whole plant in the fridge and like there's a single thing um partly because it actually takes really really long even if you had the space to hang a plant in the fridge I don't know what kind of like how long that would actually take to try it out um I have to remove uh I do break my plant down before it goes in um and even then after breaking it down I'm leaving a bit of stem on every bit uh it still takes like two to three weeks so it's still already quite a decent you know time frame for drying in terms of judging when it's done the kind of loose the loose guide uh that Shawnee actually recommended was doing a weight calculation and looking for about 25 percent of the original wet weight um you can of course follow it up with the the stem uh you know the stem kind of snapping test or like what degree of snappiness it's at and those are generally what I use to determine like uh when it should move on um it's interesting measuring by weight so basically every little how it works is that you break the plant up you put them into like paper bags and you put those paper bags in the fridge essentially that's that's that's all it is but what's quite convenient is that I will mark the original weight and the target weight before everything goes in the fridge and at that point I just take them out and put them on the scale and I can tell when the bags are ready individually I also try to keep it so that the I try to group the flowers by mass as well so that uh you don't get I think it's kind of getting towards Kush's question as well like you don't get different sized or quality buds in one bag because you don't really know whether they're all drying out at the same rate whereas they're roughly the same mass you you know sort of like uh you know ballpark estimate that okay it's probably mostly done um I don't know like uh was there anything you all wanted to know about the fridge stuff uh your um your bagging method are you double bagging or is it just brown paper bags into the fridge or the brown paper bags going into another bag like a turkey bag as a secondary good question so I think what most people are doing is just a single uh brown paper bag but I have seen variations and myself I actually put them all into a cardboard box because I have to use our like actual fridge and the cardboard box just kind of ensures that it has a little like microclimate that doesn't get like destabilized as soon as someone opens the door of the fridge so it's a little bit of a buffer um that's the only difference uh I have seen people use like pizza boxes I've seen people use like more than one bag I think it really does it's just one of those things where I think you kind of have to tailor it to your particular fridge and like your your environmental humidity and everything because that all of that is going to have an impact as well um how does my only question would be how does the the actual temperature impact curing because like I mean we're just thinking about the the basics with what peach was talking about with the um with you know like freezer keeping it in the freezer will keep the turps and everything way longer than in the fridge there's a slow degradation in the fridge but it's very very slow so I'm wondering if there is what kind of gaseous exchange goes on with that temperature for curing I wish I knew more about the science and I should also qualify that this is strictly for the drying part um I don't know if I would consider this like part of quote-unquote curing um this is just to get the moisture out but the idea is that a certain threshold of temperature you are losing less uh in terms of like the volatiles and stuff I again I don't that makes sense none of this has been proven to me um and like I said earlier I've never actually done a side-by-side I would love for someone to do it at some point um but it's just yeah given the constraints it's kind of one of the only ways I can keep things going pretty quickly yeah yeah what's the uh what's the relative humidity in the fridge I did check this I don't know if I could tell you off the top of my head right now I think it's like 45 or something like yeah it'd be like 20 to 30 probably in the fridge oh wow okay so it's low well then yeah it's a lot left and then you're good to have a bag in that case yeah that probably it's probably different in that bag it's probably a little higher in that bag right probably higher and also I guess the interplay with the temperature is definitely something I don't understand like you know obviously the low temp keeps it going for much longer but the low humidity also is like you know account to put to that so I mean it's the the humidity is relative to the temperature to the water holding capacity of the of the air so it's definitely even though it's low it's still it's really cold so it's really slowing it down because the air can't hold that much water anyways yeah that's so yeah so it's not the same as having it hot and dry where it would dry out in a flash yeah much different yeah yeah so I mean if anyone out there kind of has more science and more knowledge about how that works or you know any theories about whether it's good or bad I would love to know leave a comment below please well I was just I'll have to look up the study but I was just looking up a study about chlorophyll leaching in cold temperatures and that the chlorophyll and it was studied off of water so storms in the summer the water would have a higher chlorophyll count whereas that same water in the winter storm when it was cold would have a much lower chlorophyll count and so there were there was talking about leaching and how chlorophyll has a harder time metastasizing or there were having biosynthesis being created under colder temperatures so there could be benefits to the cold temperatures not allowing the chlorophyll to operate in a negative way or in staying inside of the the plant material yeah I think that's definitely one of the that low temperature affecting you know various metabolic processes and all that is definitely one of the contentious points like whether you know what's good and what's bad about that um compared to a conventional or more conventional dry you know all that stuff is like a bit of a mystery yeah I'd love to do side-by-side comparisons that'd be a lot of fun I mean the rate of the rate of oxidation is slower as well you know when it's cold right little hill try it yes I will I got I got fresh we still have one green house to take down might happen what do you still have to take down this year uh I got a greenhouse that has light supplemental lights and uh it's mostly rs 11 and uh skittles yeah oh man rs 11 boy height all fucking height 13 minute high bro I did a thing like I was doing a review and like as I'm have the camera on me and as I'm talking I smoke it and within 13 minutes I am dead sober after smoking rs 11 it killed me man I've only smoked indoor and I wasn't impressed and I already had the clone so like you know I was still gonna go with it it looks okay it smells okay it's just oh my god like I'm so not stoked on it and this is usually the best run of the year is this fall this fall run that runs into November yeah just because you can get the colors and just something about like low light levels but also supplemental light and like cold nights like you can you can really do some cool things in that greenhouse and like I'm I got it full of like a strain I don't give a shit about but the skills will be good the skills will taste great um I'm a super fan of uh of that strain and just as far as like head stash or something to smoke that's tasty that's that's what I'm into anyway so did you ever get to grow old sweet pink grapefruit by any chance yes um what do you think about boy would I like to have that that strain back and something we're working on it I only grew it once it had an amazing funk it was a very like horizontal grower lateral brancher um just line green nugs but but like just like things don't smell like that anymore yeah that's the closest I can get to skittles like trying to compare it to or explain to someone who used to grow stuff like that is like grape fruity citrus extreme maybe closest to something I would remember from spg like the best yeah my bad fruit grapefruit peel is something I get from it for sure yeah yeah spg god I wish I still had that is it someone that clone is still alive it's in Canada we'll work on it we'll see oh man that would be great because that man like things don't smell like that anymore yeah no I think it would put people's minds nowadays just kind of like how she does other shit like that it won't it won't test 30 but you know it's still amazing we yeah yeah you could just lie about it just send it to a lab that lies about their test and just put that out you know that's how they all do anyway yeah that's that's every lab that's the standard that's that's all done so maybe well maybe it's a 25 or yeah right well we're gonna I think we're gonna do the that z episode next so that could be cool um as well um Chris did you want to progress with those questions yeah yeah so one of them was just kind of a personal observation that I like I personally like to do in my garden and it goes back to Trimmon and the different morphology of different plants um I so if I get a golf ball uniformity noug plant and all of the buds are conical triangular or golf ball decent uniformity um I like to let those dry out a little bit more and so when I'm trimming these and it requires a dense bud because you're gonna be a little rough with it but I'll hand trim I won't use a pair of scissors I use I'll put on a pair of black nitrile powderless gloves yeah and the the bigger rounder golf ball nugs I'll pick the I'll pick the water leaf off I'll pick just hand pick everything down and even sometimes if it's bristle enough or if it's uh if it's if it's if it's dry enough you can just brush your finger across some of the the the sugar leaf and it falls right off now I'll do I'll let I'll let those dry easier and it's easier to work with my hands I have really big hands all these scissors are tiny it did my hands cramp up if I use the scissors too much but when it comes to uh a little bit larpher your strain or a sativa leaner or something that is just covered in leaf and is a pain in the ass to trim I won't let that strain get as dry I'll have it just a little bit wetter so that when I'm working with it with the scissors the buds I can be a little I can squish the bud down a little bit I can morph it around a little bit and I can work my scissors around the the content a lot easier so there there's nuance to be had like you you you can't just subjective or objectively say that this is the best time to trim this all of this weed because there are certain types of bud that is easier to handle that some you can trim just by your hand and peeling stuff off and some that you need a pair of scissors for um the other oh and the other thing is the just the powderless gloves and working with that like if you guys like your scissor hash um use the powderless gloves and do your charris like finger hash you know your hands will get coated with enough hash that you can take your charris oh dude I the check it's it's some of the best flavors in my opinion is making that scissor hash or that finger hash when your hands are coated or that's my favorite hash bro and it's so easy to do with the powderless gloves whether you use latex night trial as long as it's powderless but the the finger pressing it literally comes off so easily you only need like five or six thumb presses before it starts collecting the material to itself and it's just the it's just super easy so if you guys aren't doing that if you aren't trimming your stuff with those with gloves like that and capturing some really nice charris some some good resin I suggest doing that um and then one thing I want to take a little just quickly though what's charris without your um skin oils is that right yeah well yeah I was gonna say it's traditionally like yeah you're getting you're getting all the all the flavors if you think about it really yeah um and then just one other thing I wanted to pull back and talk about and like I think all of us have had a friend or know somebody or have had this experience you go over to a buddy's garden he's growing a really good weed amazing weed maybe even better weed than you are and you're like dude good job keep it up make sure everything is good and then two weeks after harvest and after cure and he's like man I I don't know what happened all this shit dried out too fast like I think we've all seen it where somebody grew really amazing weed took the diligence to grow the plant all year long and then just slacked off when it came to harvest curing and hang I think we all anecdotally have stories of friends or people we know that killed it during the grow and then slacked off at the end and like me I just want I just want to reiterate like take it seriously like do do the due diligence make sure your grown room is set up make sure you know you have the space and the time planned out for it make sure you have the time to trim it when it's ready to be bucked off the lines I have personally seen so many good gardens literally just fall apart because the gardener at the very end just just either hit a complacency wall or just didn't take the curing harvest and the hanging process seriously it's it's as important and meticulous as the grow session all year long and it happens in a much smaller crunch of time but it's just as important in my opinion. So just to add to the the Charis part what I learned from our homie at Zomia that goes over there and like does that is that a lot of those dudes that actually do the Charis their their hands don't really have a lot of skin cells come off anymore because their hands are so fucking callous from dealing with the caustic turps of and the cannabinoids or cannabinoids or whatever of that stuff their hands are just so freaking callous that not a lot. They just don't have pores there's no natural oils coming out of their hands because their pores are clogged. Yeah that's crazy. That's brutal but like I thought about it I was like yeah that makes sense like if you think about just like getting getting you know rubbing against plants like bear arms sometimes you can get really itchy you know like when you're having a heavy trim session your balls are itchy and you know the sensitive parts of your that should suck bro. Okay sorry were there problems in there for the others? No no just like just the nuance I've noticed between trimming different morphology like a suggestion for the hash and if you want to capture your scissor hash and your trim hash using the gloves and then just reiterating the you know take a step back and make sure your the ladder portion your last 20% is as important as the 80% that you grew all year or the time that you took to grow it indoors whatever your frame is you know take care of the end don't slack off on it take it seriously I've seen a lot of failures just because people were like oh you know I'll get around to it or it doesn't have to be perfect I grew this fire looking weed you know look at this this is going to be awesome and then it doesn't turn out like they thought it was because they didn't take the last portion of it seriously. I've seen a lot of growers who are who think they're shitty growers because they're not very good at drying and curing and vice versa I've seen a lot of people think they're great growers that are shitty growers and kind of do okay at the drying and curing part. I want to say that like as a relative newbie it still scares me not knowing whether or not if if I get some flour that's not so good like I it's still not very clear to me whether or not I messed up in the post harvest at this point and I'm not talking about clones that I'm rerunning they already know of course I just mean like you know new new plants that I'm trying I'm like is that because I messed up at the end I don't know I'm going to have to rerun it and see if it's the same or you know I'm going to have to try and vary something in my dry cure to see if it makes any difference I guess what I'm trying to say is that like I don't feel like I have that much certainty when it comes to the end product quality and knowing like exactly where things may have gone good or bad yet I'm hoping to like obviously develop that over time but it's so complex that I'm like oh this could have gone wrong at like any of these points I don't know it could just be like a shitty expression from the genetics and that's just how it could be the genetics as well yes yeah exactly so I'm still yeah still get in there still working my way there okay um I thought otherwise we could just open the floor like anything you know anything that comes to mind for you guys around any of these topics uh any of your any reflections on like your most recent harvest anything like that I'm gonna gonna throw the indoor guys under the bus a bit and say one of you has to respond um I was kind of gonna ask actually um do any of you guys look at like the pistol development at all in terms of like looking when to harvest and all of that or I don't know it's kind of just something like I've never really used it but I don't know I kind of just see that it like correlate for heavily I mean like if I still see white pistols or stigma at the end of harvest I'm like I'm thinking that I probably screwed up somewhere if I know that this should be done and I'm seeing a bunch of you know my hair sticking out but at the same time like there are some plants that will never stop throwing that like Kim 91 stuff like that when it's grown right so it's hey it's up in the air just where you like the high it's funny you mentioned that the Kim 91 s1 that I got going out right now it's it has like one or two white still sticking out the top of it endless and she actually she retained a couple of her pink pistols too I was really this laid into it yeah I was really surprised to see pink like on the top of every cola two or three pink pistols usually I'm used to seeing those fade away pretty yeah pretty early into flower yeah so there's there's a lot of strains that do that and like you just kind of have to know which or which like I was talking about the Bundy sys s1 cut earlier that thing will do it it's just like endless ugly ass white hairs it looks like it got shocked you know like one of the traits of it yeah I mean I guess it just depends on the genetics and stuff and what the way some some strains just do I mean most of them tend to the hairs die off and you know it's you know maybe not time to harvest but you know it's at least been pollinated or hand fumbled or whatever you know there's it means all sorts of different things in the hair sprout up yeah yeah these look too hot yeah something I look at is like once most of the hairs are turned like like a majority of them especially on the tops I know that like harvest is probably about two weeks away at least this is this is outdoors this is greenhouse like once they all kind of turn then you're going to start really to see you're really going to start seeing swelling in the nugs and uh you know you're still about two weeks away I have a question for you do you see a lot of pollen contamination out where you're growing outdoor like from other farms not blowing in not where I am at all um never unless I'm contaminating myself yeah right yeah can happen um but uh in town like that down in Garverville or redway if you're growing in your backyard like you'll get seeds and everything every year that's funny dude I'd be so happy some years some years worse because like people are like some people are flowering males out in their backyard to bring up to their their garden up up somewhere else and yeah I mean in town and there's weed in everybody's backyard and you don't know what kind of garbage they're growing or hermes or what I know man but so that's fairly common in town but out here just especially where I am no way um just because I'm there's there's nobody really growing weed very close to me and it's very windy so I mean no I've never had an issue with it I did have a neighbor with a male plant I saw one time and I just kind of barked at him to fucking cut it down that shit out of here or I would do it for him this is right yeah this is a random story I had I hadn't heard me plant this year um in my Skittles uh Skittle Sherbur Cross yeah um one of them straight up hermied more male flowers than than female and uh I caught it I caught it early enough um I haven't I haven't really trimmed up that weed yet so I don't know if it's seeded but I kind of doubt it just yeah just from looking at all the male flowers and and the weed around it the the the females around it like I'm I don't I don't think it hermied um I mean I don't think it uh seeded yeah yeah but other than that like yeah pretty good way to fucking get on your neighbor's bad side if if you've got a bunch of stray pollen running around your property I was gonna say like is have you all witnessed or heard of any like spiteful individuals who've gone and like pollinated someone's garden because not pollinated but but if a neighbor had pollinated your garden accidentally and theirs most likely that's that's definitely happened and yeah that that can cause some problems like I've heard of lots of lawsuits you know I've heard some stories in trinity pines where guys were using drones and they were pollinating other people's farms with drones that's epic wow that's that's pretty fucked up yeah bro that's like epic hate bro trinity pines is pretty crazy though it gets pretty wild up there that's funny man a bunch of dicks yeah there's been a lot of lawsuits especially during the hemp stuff um whether it was you know hot hemp or you know like it's supposed to be fem seed and all of a sudden it's all pollinated there are people like chad suing like the the people they had do it or whoever because they didn't understand what feminized meant or any of it like that was pretty common yeah also they were they were putting out like really un un untested seed for the most part that's that that happened big time in applegate applegate valley in southern oregon um bunch of hemp farmers in the valley fucking seeded up everybody since Amelia crop and uh I think that I think caused some problems I could only imagine yeah if somebody seeded my crop what would happen like I don't think I would sue them but like you can't fuck with somebody's livelihood like that and honestly like there is you are liable in the in the era of legalization you're super liable yeah for ruining somebody's agricultural crop yeah especially if the person's legal you know what I mean like yeah definitely well oh yeah so I don't know still liable to get you ass whipping um I had a question also for you outdoor growers so like once you guys see like betridas and what not on an outdoor crop is that like signs to harvest that right now or kind of just cut it and let it go and harvest it or like how do you guys deal with that I think it depends on where you are like how close to harvest are you it your betridas could have been caused by caterpillars in which case cut it out and let it ride um but like if you see betridas like you might go another week before you see betridas again on the same plant or on the same strain so in that case you just got to start monitoring and looking closer once you see it until it gets to the point where like okay I saw three new spots today tomorrow I'm going to see 10 new spots cut it you know so like it kind of progressively gets worse and you got to know when to cut your losses yeah and I also think I mean that's the harvest time thing like okay like okay where I think we're gonna you know we got 10 spots of mold today let's let's harvest tomorrow because it's just going to get worse and so that's that's your harvest timing right there it's molding you know right I think it also depends on infection location um you know if it's in the base of a main cola as opposed to a lower tier branch or a little snug or if it's on the main stem near the near the base of the the plant there's the I've noticed in my garden usually it only propagates where there's dead cell material if there's dead plant material for it to grow off of or in the instance of caterpillars it's uh it's their shit I've noticed that the the the the proliferation of it starts where their shit is just resting on the flower so it kind of depends on the infection site depends on if I take that branch or if I take just the tip of the cola off or if I take the whole thing or if I take the whole plant yeah there's just just the tip I I had a question about vitritis I think this one's for local because I think local and I had a little talk about this I don't know how long ago but so far mostly when we talk about vitritis we consider it to be like an exogenous or like kind of caused by like exogenous factors like caterpillars uh humidity etc but local you were you mentioned to me that there was also a notion of systemic vitritis I don't even know if that's the right term for it but was that something we were talking about um I think we have um and like I think it's kind of like never really been settled if it's systemic or not systemic I don't know it's not really what do we mean here when we say systemic okay okay yeah yeah um but like systemic I guess it's like if if one part of the plant has it like the rest of it is or can't have it type of deal yeah yeah anything else from anyone uh no I mean I think like what you guys have been talking about have been great points and just like what Kesh was saying like the biggest thing that has helped me um is to just be prepared for what you're doing you know like you know like how many plants you're going to be taking down make sure you have a space ready for it um you know make sure you have your environmental kind of like thing like environmental controllers and stuff like that in place before uh you go you know because once you once you take them down they're drying whether you like it or not whether you're in good conditions or bad you know so just be prepared for it you know I think that's the best way you like to set yourself up for success yep well one other thing I wanted to add was people who are very meticulous about scoping trichome amber and cloudiness um a lot of people don't take into account that when you chop the plant and hang it that maturation still goes so and it varies with strains it varies with environments I've seen some that have 20 percent amber trichomes jump up to 40 by the time hang is done and I've seen some that only add like five percent more so it's another nuanced subjective like you have to you have to get in there and and work with the plants to understand what it's going to do I've wondered about this too especially because it takes so much longer for me to dry in the fridge I often have thought about that like whether or not that that process you know obviously will continue but at what rate yeah right yeah I mean if nothing else we can probably call it a wrap yeah I think we're right about that range and then possibly maybe an idea for the next episode is uh just talking about what we grew I mean for an outdoor roundtable what we grew this year what we liked what worked well what we might go for next year and get a get a get another hour and a half two hour discussion going on that because I could talk about plenty of that as well yeah I'm already excited for next year's grow and I'm not even done trimming this year's and I'm I'm chomping at the base I'm definitely ready for some like offseason content because I imagine this there's a lot of prep that you guys have to do anyway in the offseason thinking yeah planning etc so I think that could be cool for sure I want to see you guys go through the jars and like describe each one as you go through it and what nuances you look for and how you assess your weed and like all that stuff because I think people be really into that yeah that seems to be why they like the reviews that I do is because they're someone that has experience with something giving them a real realistic on the ground idea of what this thing smells and tastes like and all that so I think people would be into it call it call it like a jar talk have a roundtable called jar talk jar jar talk I like that I also want to kind of credit kush by the way for this episode he actually wrote up a bunch of these questions and and the outline and I'm stoked because it's the first time someone else has done it instead of me yeah I'm like yeah that's awesome and so you know maybe the next one you may we may not need both you know me and Matt maybe one of us maybe yeah you could take the reins fully kush at some point we'll see yeah I see in the future getting more outdoor cats on and there might be a panel big enough to where both of you guys don't even need to be there we might have enough people talking yeah I don't need to be in any outdoor episode I'm a idiot outdoors like so that's all I got are dumbass questions is all I got so yeah well with that it I wanted to thank each and every one of you for showing up is there anything you have to say earn you want to plug no I'm just happy to be here thanks for having me thanks for letting me hang out with you guys mr kush of the giants uh just plug the breeder send it to discord if you guys like this content like literally just just to hang out in the discord get it like everything you see here is tenfold in text on the discord it gets deeper we get more nuance we get more more discussions in there just go check out the discord little hill um I just want to say thank you to you guys for having me on and and and the opportunity to talk shop um I got some new merch I bought a bunch of merch for uh for uh I don't know just for the farm um organic cotton hoodies uh racer back tank tops and sweat shirts um very high quality apparel and it just supports a small organic farmer so yeah we're gonna get on instagram instagram they'll make uh they'll make really nice uh christmas gifts I think absolutely for all your loved ones you guys do any hats any snapbacks or anything I have I have some hats I have some old hats still I mean they're new but they're old right um if if yeah just just uh trucker hats uh which I which I like a lot they're the old style and uh but uh yeah I mean it just it directly supports my farm and it keeps my head above water that's why I'm doing it so appreciate any support thanks guys awesome local what you got yeah thanks for having us uh and like uh christ was saying uh the discord I mean this this is kind of what we talk about all day every day um there's plenty of pictures which we don't get to you know put up here but you know the discord is where all the shit goes down um so if y'all can please do join yeah I just wanted to also say that so that people have an idea we have about 500 people on the discord I think maybe four to 500 so it's not small it's a good active group yeah so thousand you got anything else you want to say nah nothing nothing beyond that just again also very grateful for all of you here and yeah very grateful for like all the new energy that's being brought to the show and the just the crew in general me as well um just just speaking for myself like the show has come a long way since I first started it as my live stream on instagram um there's been times where I've you know ground my teeth to bits and and right now isn't one of them I'm so stoked with the direction of this place being able to take you know a few weeks off and just like deal with my health stuff it's it's been amazing so thank you thousand for for taking the time to do all this and all of you guys that that come on and like put your time into this I I can't thank you guys enough and uh with that go check out our breeder syndicate patreon that's where you get to the discord you can save money at wrightseeds.com I think it's 30 off if you're a part of the patreon what else do we have go to lifted genetics uh yeah lifted genetics lftd genetics on instagram he carries a lot of the breeder syndicate folks too um we have wrightseed co europe for our european connection we have girt by seeds who also carries a bunch of the european or i'm sorry the breeder syndicate people but it's for australia so for australian fans you you have access to our stuff and uh wrightseeds.com for all your spray blah blah i think that's it and go buy some uh go buy some merch from little hill and show support and with that i think that is it did i get everything thousand yeah thanks so thanks everyone thank you cheers you want to sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top-notch i've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicategear.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from ig and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders and growers come check it out