 Life in the law. This is Think Tech. I'm Jay Fiedel. It's the one o'clock clock and we have Clarissa Millenow here. Clarissa, thank you for joining us today. It's very important that we talk to you because we have to touch all parts of the community and the lawyers are an important part of the community. Hi. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Mr. Fidel. Sure. Call me Jay. You can call me Morris. You can call me Morris if you want, but I'm not Morris. Okay. I'll stick with Jay. So Clarissa, you know, how long have you been admitted to the bar and why and why? Well, in 2006, I was admitted to the bar. And the why is for me, it was the need to help people. My office is located in the heart of Waipahu, where Waipahu itself, we have a lot of immigrants who migrated to the area. We have people who are less fortunate, who need assistance and access to justice. So for me, that goal in mind was a reason why. Wow, that's it. Is this something you decided on, you know, later on, like in law school, or was it something you decided on early before you went to law school? I think part of it maybe was, I'd say, started with my upbringing with my parents. You know, my dad was a officer. He retired as an officer lieutenant in the Navy. But back then, as you know, sir, when they were considered to be part of the military, you either had two jobs. You either were going to shoe shine, or you're going to be a cook. And then you had to make your way up. Well, that goes back a few years. It does, doesn't it? And so with seeing those struggles and the challenges, you know, I resonated with me and in that people's access and how people were looked at weren't really created equal. So you'd help your family, you'd help your friends, you'd help your, your mom and pop, you'd help anybody you feel is offended by the system. I love it. This is a great motivation for getting into practice of law. So you're not going to be a million billionaire than is that the idea. Unfortunately, not. I had to give that up. I had to cross that off my, my list. We need you on the social justice side. That's where we need you honestly. Okay, so I guess the most comfortable kind of practice for somebody with that motivation is a solo practice. Yeah. Because, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to develop a juggernaut business kind of practice. What are you doing that? You don't always get paid, you don't always, you know, get the best rates. So you just have to do it largely for social justice, which is wonderful. So tell me what it's like to be in a solo practice in Waipahu. Well, we're, we're, we had to endure the construction of the rail. Doesn't everybody. Right. And so it's, it kind of added to some traffic on Farrington highway, but for the most part, it hasn't stopped people needing to seek the advice of someone in the local community, whether it's about family court issues with divorce or guardianship or adoption, or whether it's someone who received a ticket, perhaps possibly a violating quarantine in recent times. And there's a huge array of just a spectrum of things that people just need advice, you know, it is, how do I get my stimulus check? It may not be necessarily law related, but if there is an area where I can direct that person to seek the, you know, information for that person, I'm okay with that. Well, that's so interesting. Good for you. You don't get paid for, you know, directing them at the right place to get their stimulus check. It's good. It's good to be able to, you know, have the, we want to call it the larger view of things that you get when you go to law school, you understand the community better. You understand how, how the social fabric works. And therefore, you know, you have an advantage that you can, you know, you can give other people, which is very nice. So, so you're in the leadership Institute. You know, why, why the leadership Institute? Does that, does that relate to what we've been talking about? Well, I would say yes, because my hope, and so far it's been invigorating with just two classes I've had and I'll point out, Jay, you were in fact one of our moderator speakers at last session, in that it's, it's here to understand what is my role in the community. Perhaps the first question is maybe the legal community, but now the community at large, because it doesn't necessarily have to be in the legal field. And so it's, it's really asking myself if the desire and motivation is there to help the larger community, how best can I serve my community, our community. You know, that kind of, that's the tracks on what you were talking before. You know, the lawyers do have a larger perspective because of law school and reading cases and the like seeing how, you know, our, our society has evolved. And you don't necessarily have to be a million billionaire. The Leadership Institute can help you further understand that community and further help it. Some of the people in the Leadership Institute, not necessarily this year I couldn't say about this year but some of them have been directed at going for higher office. Some of them have been directed at being leaders in their firms, which are sometimes very big firms. Sometimes it's business they want to be a CEO. There are a lot of lawyers I'm sure you know some you know they get out of law school, and the first priorities become a CEO of a large organization, whether it's profit or nonprofit or governmental. So, you know, I guess it's the Leadership Institute is all things to all people, then your slice of it may be different than somebody else's slice. That is true. And I think that variety makes it that much more interesting is we're talking about 15 of us fellows in a class, and now I'm my class is a 12 annual. So that just shows you how long this program has been in existence. And it's such a variety of people from various backgrounds, and to have their, you know, optics, and what their experiences are, and to inject that into our fellowship helps to include leaders, and how we can become better leaders in our community. I truly believe that and I, and they're all very smart, all very willing and motivated and capable, and it's just made me so proud to be a part of the fellowship. Yeah, well that's great. That's refreshing if you want to know. Thank you for telling us that, because it is all consistent you are integrated person at least so far in the 11 minutes we've been on the air you're a very integrated person. We've got so many 55 to go or so. I want to know about the leadership Institute because although I have moderated I really don't know how the rest of it works, can you tell the people, you know what it's like with what the application process is like, and what the actual Institute, you know involves in terms of format in terms of the kind of content you get in terms of the kind of engagement you have. So as far as applying, it is by application, and the application can be found at the HSBA.org website, and you can just search in there for leadership Institute on the application which is, I would say maybe two pages at most with an instruction page provides detail instructions on information of how to fill out the application and what to include which particularly would be your resume. And, you know, Patricia Mao Shimizu is the executive director as you know, and my understanding is she, along with other members of a committee will evaluate the submissions of the applicants and make a determination of who they will be admitted. And they've made me and my fellow fellows very feel very special because they keep saying, do you know how special you are now, maybe they've said that to prior classes. Well, yes they have. But it can be true in both cases you know I mean. Right, right. So, with that, you get a letter of admission, once you've been accepted from from Pat, and then they give you with that. And before you apply there is a schedule of what is expected for you to commit, because it's usually held on a particular single day, maybe a Friday believe every month for about six months. Now this year was a little different because the global pandemic hit. And we all meet at a certain location which is at the HSBA conference room. And due to the coronavirus. There was quarantine issues imposed so the neighbor island fellows participated through zoom, as you know, yes, yes. And so it's going to be like that for the rest of the program true it's going to stay that way I guess. I would say it's a, it would be up to that particular person because I believe the governor recently lifted the neighbor island quarantine. Oh, so there's just a matter of paying the airfare. Correct, which is actually cheap now. So I hear. Some people say why wasn't it cheap before. How come a COVID thing to make it cheap. It couldn't afford to take me from island to island for $39 before also. That's a good question. Anyway, okay, so yeah, and I thought I thought the, you know, I've been doing this for a few years and I thought the, you know, the level of the participants have been very high there. They're, they're high minded, they're, they're good lawyers, they're articulate, they're engaging all of all the right things and they'll all be successful, not necessarily because of the Institute, but because they were well selected in the first place. That would be the test anyway but the Institute helps I'm sure. So, so you had, I know at one point you had my friend, David Louis come around and give a talk. Tell us about his talk. I want to know more so I can chit chat with him about it. Well, he did, he did have a presentation that had a lot of slides with photographs and pictures. But I think what was more meaningful was his words and the impact of his words, which were truly honesty. Don't be a jerk and learn. Be a sponge, read and educate yourself to understand what is going on in the world around you and what you can use with that information to assist you in advancing yourself in whatever path you choose, whether it's legal or not legal. He's, he's, he's a great thinker he's a great speaker one thing about him is, you know, it's only going back to the draft. You're not too young so you don't know about the draft. Right, Clarissa. Yeah, I, I think I've read about I've heard about it but I've definitely didn't experience it. In the first days, you know, you had perfectly civilian people who really didn't have any connection with the military, coming into the military as draftees, and they did not represent the same constituency that the long term, you know, career people represented. They were from another, another place they were from, you know, the civilian community. So when they came in they brought that ethic with them, and they tended to, you know, to disturb and jiggle things up and, and they tended to make the regular military more accountable. And it was, you know, it was a valuable process and it was valuable in World War two also. You don't have the draft anymore but there's a comparison here. David Louis is from, is from the practicing bar as you are. David Louis goes to government and becomes the Attorney General, and he brings the practicing bar, you know, perspective with him. So he's an interesting, you know, combination, a merger if you will, of the practicing bar and the government. It's a little unusual because a lot of people in government are only from government. A lot of people from the practicing bar are only from the practice. So he was, and I had, you know, engagement with him while he was in office as the Attorney General. I'll tell you he was good. When he sat there and he talked to you. He was a lawyer, just like you are at a desk, and he was looking at options and trying to help you and give you advice and he wasn't stuck in anything. This makes him, you know, a very unusual man and he still like that. He brings both. Correct. And he fused the best of both worlds together. And he sort of complimented himself. They made him such a marketable person in his field, because he is excellent in his field, and very well known and such a great speaker, if I could add. And in practice, you know, he is fully consistent with the notion of don't be a jerk. He is, you know, nobody gets hurt. Nobody gets hurt. Nobody gets offended. Nobody gets insulted. None of that, you know, the mentality that brings us together. So I'm happy to know him and happy that he gave that talk in the past. He's been on panels where I have moderated and I've seen him do the same thing in a panel. He is consistent. Yeah, he is. So what so I mean, can you give us some substantive, you know, lessons that you've got from him in that talk. You walked away with something I wonder was, don't be a jerk, but how about the rest. Well, it's really to take an approach of, you know, the goal of leadership just doesn't happen overnight or the or answering that that question finding out how to achieve that goal. I have to put in, and this may be the obvious but you really need to put in the hard work. And one thing he's, he said in his presentation to us was, don't be scared to reach out to people for advice. Now, you know, if you're looking for a mentor, you know, that's a different question. But if you're looking to sort of hone in on a particular specific specific question before you make that decision, and how that decision may impact your reputation, or your opportunities in the future, reach out to someone who is in your larger dynamic family of people you trust, and get that advice. Boy, is that good advice. And I can tell you he does do that. He's got he's got a brain trust isn't limited to his firm either. It's all over the community he you know he'll call somebody and ask advice it's a very valuable kind of orientation. And it has certainly worked for him. Definitely. What about you, you know, you're practicing already a few years, do you have a brain trust. You have people you can call from outside outside your office and, and have a conversation where you get mentoring type advice. Yes, yes, I do. And I think that's, that's, that's helps evolve you as a person. Because of course the range of spectrum is once you're licensed, you're sort of a baby attorney, and you're trying to set your footing to find out okay what areas of the law. Am I most comfortable with or how should I say is my calling is something that I believe that I can do the best service for the community. If you go through your years, you, you realize more about who yourself as a person, and less doubt as to your capabilities as, as an attorney. But I think what's, yeah. Yeah, after a while it sinks in. That's true. Scars and bandages to show for. Most definitely. They're quite permanent in some areas. Okay, well, I want to go to the other, the other now that you've only had two of these sessions the second session was the one I was at right. Okay, so we had a pretty interesting discussion. We had Claire Connors there. Yes, we did. Mike, Mike, Mike, the former judge, the family judge. Yeah, Brad Broderick. Broderick. We, let's see who else we had a judge there. Federal judge a magistrate. Yeah, what's his name. Yep. And we had, oh yeah, and we had. Mariyoshi. Yes. The, well, she's been doing so many things. People, people would know her now as the vice president of HMSA, which is quite a position in our time. Yes. So that's an interesting group to watch to see how they got where they are. And if you're interested in getting where they are or developing rules for how to get where you want to get or, or a good place, because sometimes you don't know where you want to get until you get there. Right. That was, that was one thing I got out of that. I'll ask you what you got out of it. I've gotten the same message out of earlier panels like that. You have to see, you know, career development as organic and unfolds. It depends on the circumstances. Who knows what kind of influences will come into your life and everything could change on a dime. And so you had to be flexible about it and let fate you take you where it will. That's true. That's true. It's, you know, as attorneys, we are so steadfast to provide predict, predictability, because that is what either our clients expect. They want certainty. But in the face of global pandemic where it's affected our, our court systems to some degree with having to comply with social distancing or physical distancing. We have to adjust, we have to be able to adjust how we're going to now maneuver in this new era of COVID-19. And I think taking that perspective and understanding is saying your life. If you have this goal and you're saying, I'm going to get from point A to point B, only this direction. I think unfortunately closes you off actually from other opportunities because the speakers you just mentioned. For example, Miss Matayoshi, her area of how she got to be Vice President HMSA, never in her wildest dreams, which she thinks she'd get there from the various careers she had in her past. But she was open to the opportunities that she was provided. And somehow she trusted that and she was able to trust that and look where it landed her. And it was proud. It was proud to see that and it was fulfilling to see that and hear from her. Yeah, and the two judges that was interesting in both cases how they got to be judges because, you know, some people don't want to be judges. But you're okay. Some people, some people. You're a per diem judge. How do you like doing that? It's been interesting. It's been different. Again, adjustment with the COVID-19. But, you know, the bottom line is that, at least for me, is the access to justice to the people of our community is so imperative and how best can the judiciary provide that for the people. I think, you know, Chief Justice Rectonwald is doing a great job in monitoring how the courts are going to be able to adjust to this, again, living in COVID-19. Yeah, well, that access to justice is his big program. It's his signature initiative and it has worked well and it has helped. He certainly recognized the problem, though. I mean, prior to that, you know, there really, there was an untouched problem and maybe it's better now. But it's something, you know, we all have to watch going forward because it's so easy not to give access to justice. And in other places in the country, you see that. I'm reminded of, gosh, there's one professor at the law school and Allison Connor, I don't know if you ever ran into her. She's an expert on, among other things, on Chinese filmmaking. She has a collection of films from the 20s and the 30s, I guess, you know, between the wars. And it has their legal films, their films of lawyers and judges in courtroom settings. And you can see that how terrified all these people were. They really didn't have access to judge, you know, to justice, they had to go where they had to go and that's a bad culture. You have to have a culture, I'm sure you agree, where the individual feels that he is connected with the court system and the government for that matter. He's part of it, and it's part of him. They're all together and we're trying to make justice here. Now that may not be a perfect solution. I mean, it's not certainly isn't working perfectly, but that would be the aspiration anyway. So do we have that in Hawaii? What do you think? Well, you know, whether we have that in Hawaii would then require to question, how do we compare with other states? Okay, fair enough. You know, because it's easy to say that we're doing great when you look at things in isolation. When you don't know anything else that's going on. Of course, you're going to feel everything's perfect. Yeah. You know, when I look at what's going on in other states and the social injustice and the moving, especially with the killing of George Floyd, we are probably, you know, a little better. Okay. You know, but, but that's not to say that we have reached perfection. And I think it's important that we don't lose sight of history. We don't lose sight of the civil rights movement and the struggles that people endured. Because losing sight of that again, leaves us to become complacent. And perhaps that complacency then turns into being in a situation where we're not well informed. And I think it's important that we stay well informed of what is going on in our community. And to be mindful of the things that occurred in the in the past to make sure we don't make the mistakes for the future. Yeah, that's great. I'm happy you said that as you know from our experience together in that program a couple weeks ago. I'm from the University of Institute. I cared about two things which I articulated to you guys and I like, I don't know if any of that was of interest but the first thing is, yes, we are in COVID. And we have to rebuild the economy of the state because the economy is falling apart now for the lack of tourism. It's not clear that we'll ever recover what we had terms of money on cash flow and tax receipts and you know, financial prosperity. So how do you rebuild an economy. Well, a lot of theories about that a lot of economists have a lot of ideas about you do it, but frankly, I think the lawyers are the ones that are best suited to understand and facilitate the rebuilding of the economy where well, you start by building a business don't you. And lawyers do that for people, they tell them how to start a business. And that's where we are now a lot of a lot of businesses have already failed. And, you know, this is going to go on for a while and you know, that'll be a lot of bankruptcies a lot of failures going forward. So how do you recapture that. You start from the beginning, and you incentivize somebody to build a business and put in his time and effort or her time and effort and not run away to the mainland. You know, and lawyers can do that they could, they can make it easier, they can give advice like you, like you get advice from your, from your brain trust, you know, they can get advice from you and how to do it. So am I right about that you agree about that mean how are we going to build or rebuild our economy in the state, and how important are the lawyers at least in your view. I think they're imperative. I do want to add Jay is that it really is a widespread collaborative effort. I mean because we need to look at various aspects. And look at how we can improve, whether it's creative ideas, a first time solutions. But obviously, you know, because it's so easy to go back and say well how we did it before, we're just going to keep doing it that mentality. And that's, in my opinion, that may not work. Because things, things have really changed. And our state, unfortunately is no different than the 49 other states in fact the entire country, the world that has been impacted on every level of our infrastructure due to this global pandemic. So doing things, how you know status quo is not going to be the best solution for any community. But I think what's important is to have brave persons come to the table with ideas and engage in discussions so that we can reach a sensible plan. And rebuild. You know recently there's been talk about perhaps tourism, you know should not be the only business that this state relies on. How about agriculture. How about looking into other areas that we can still support local and that we circulate that economy to so that we can get back on our feet again. I'm not one of those people that could go to that table, but I definitely know others who are leaders in the community that are having those tough discussions, hard, hard discussions to find out what is the best interest of our state. Okay, I have a, I have a case study for you. Okay. Okay, so you're forming a corporation or a business partnership but have you and you have to file papers and get a license, whatever it may be. You're dealing with a government agency and easy enough to find out what agency that is. So you help your clients to create the papers and to submit the papers. Maybe at the other end in this government position has been there a long time and is calcified and loves to sit on papers and make people squirm for a long time. Okay, and there's no you're not going to go to court, you're not going to seek a mandamus, you have to find a way to make this happen so my question is short of going to court. What do you do with this calcified person. How do you talk to this person if at all go over this person's head to go to a legislator. How do you get this person to unstuck the papers, so your client can form his brand new agricultural business or whatever it might be. What do you do just give me options. Well, one is an attempt to talk to this person directly, and you know communication is key. It's it's our it's the heart of our business is without the ability to have communications, whether it's via zoom now platform or before COVID-19 was personally face to face. It'd be very difficult to convey the message or the request of what a person would like or want. We have to do it in a way where as Mr, you know David Louis had mentioned is, don't be a jerk about it. We, we know if we in your hypo we already know the mentality or attitude of this person. So if we come to that table with such aggression or equal attitude as well. I don't think that's going to do anything for my client. We have to be creative in our fashion of how we're going to make that request. I would think correct. Anything with sugar is fantastic. And you know down from here I've got that Honolulu kitchen imagine Honolulu kitchen in Waipahu but they made the fried mini monopause you know fried monopause. The monopou approach this one option for sure. And all seriousness if that doesn't go very well I'd like to also make sure I have documentation, perhaps a documentation of that person's resistance in being able to comply with the normal procedures of applying that they're refusing to comply with. What about making the policy pitch, would you would you sit down at that table say look you know we have a we have an economy that it's failing. We want to encourage businesses. Can you can you help us out on encouraging those businesses. Would you do that could you do that or does it depend on the circumstances and the person. I would say the latter because one thing I'm very wary of is to never to to operate ethically. I think is very important to be to have morals but to operate ethically and honestly. And if I know that currently the the sleigh of the land is you have to wait 90 days before anything of this can be approved and perhaps our frustration is, why do they wait towards the day before the 90th day on day 89 to approve it. And there's nothing else that gives an exception to that, then, you know, so be it but if I'm feeling a resistance to something that I feel is quite unfair, maybe the next avenue is to talk to someone higher up. Talk to a supervisor to find out look I. This is what my concern is this is what we have submitted what what can we do here to help all parties move forward. It's always about to remind parties about that approach to move forward and it's not so much. We're just adding more work for that person. But we're looking at the larger picture here of what this particular application for a business license may do for the broader community, and hopefully they'll have some feelings. What about the press. And you know the press is a that's a moving target these days I mean, the star appetizer just terminated a number of their reports. So the press may not be the same thing. As it was but but would you go to the press would you try to make your pitch to the press to try to, you know, put pressure on this government agency through the press. It was proper for me to do so. I would have to make sure that you know my, it's an adversarial proceeding. It's we are advocates by heart as attorneys. And I have to make sure that whatever commitment I do whatever move I do on behalf of my client, it has to fall within the rules of professional responsibility and make sure that I'm in full compliance because I definitely don't want to get into trouble. Sure, there are ethical boundaries there. Okay, one other point I'd like to make in our remaining time is this, I mentioned and I always mentioned, you know, my view that the lawyer has a duty to preserve protect the rule of law. And that that goes beyond the rule of law in our state goes to the, the Constitution, the legal and social fabric of the country. The part that makes the country work you know if we, if none of us have confidence in the government if none of us want to respect the government integrate with the government. The government will fail ultimately, it's got to be a social fabric that keeps us keeps us, you know, keeps us together. The question is, you know, what is the duty as you see it, the role of the lawyer, the licensed lawyer who went to law school and study constitutional law, studied fairness, studied government. The lawyer who took an oath, you know, to preserve the rule of law, and all the constitutions, you know, from here to there, or at least the federal and the state constitution. So what, what do you do about that, especially in a time where issues about constitutionality by by federal government agencies and executives are raised every day every day sometimes three or four times a day. So, what do you do about that. You know, a lot of lawyers will say I practice in the state of X. And that's another issue what happens in Washington, I can't do much about it so I'm not going to do anything about it. What, what about you Clarissa, what do you feel about that. You know, it's for me it's easy to to sort of say, I'm just a little person in Waipahu, who may not have a lot of political connections or pull. So, what would be the effort what would be the change that I could do. But when we look back at history. People who spoke up created a movement and initiatives and reform from just speaking out against the injustice that he or she saw. And I think that's important you talked about earlier about communication is key. And again, communicating and calling out in such a way in a productive manner about the injustice we see that's going on in our community is going to be so more important, especially as we go through this transition now living in a global pandemic. And there's individuals and social justice and other matters that are going on in the community about people feeling their rights are being violated due process, people not being heard. And you know what the governor's meritorium has been imposed until July 31. And, you know, people have not been able to pay their rent. And is because they haven't been able to continue to work, because they haven't had a business to work to, because a business has closed down due to the coven. So, as we go through, we have to make sure we uphold the laws and equity is quite important in that as well. Okay, one last question for you then we have to, we have to go and run, but that that is this. Okay, you are part of the leadership Institute. I would say a robust part of it you speak well for it. And you're part of the bar you went to the school you took the oaths you're practicing you have a special prestige and a special power in the community every practicing lawyer does every lawyer does. And there are people out there don't have a clue about how this all works they don't know how the law works the courts they don't know how the legislature works. At best bystanders because they're not, they're not engaged. So I want to offer you one minute to talk to them, and to tell them, on behalf of the bar on behalf of the leadership Institute on behalf of you and your practice. What, what should they be thinking about in these times, in terms of integrating their lives in the legal community. Think about keeping our community as a whole intact. When this global pandemic hit it really disenfranchised not only a lot of members of the community businesses, a lot of families, it's really trickle down and affect that no one could fathom or imagine. And I think what's important as lawyers is with the leadership Institute that we've with matters we've learned and matters we see through our experiences as lawyers is to be able to convey that to be able to assist people that we see who are in dire need of help, and to be able to really really think about how best we can keep our community going, because it is our community that has helped support me to at least help me get to where I am which I very much appreciate, and we can't be complacent. We must continue to strive to fight, and it may not be a battle that we want to endure. I mean who would, who wants to. But when we when I took that oath, I knew this job was not going to be easy, at least for me. And so it's very important and looking back at many who have come before me and continue to strive to make those changes is very important. Thank you. Thank you Clarissa Clarissa Malinao, a member of the Leadership Institute at the Hawaii State Bar Association, who it's been such a joy to like to talk to you and you so well represent the lawyers of our state thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me you stay safe. You too. Aloha. Thank you.