 and welcome to Hawaii, the state of clean energy. I'm your host, Mitch Ewan. Our underwriter is the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum, and that's a program of the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute. I'm very pleased to welcome again a return guest and my friend, Toby Kincaid, publisher for Green Hydrogen Today magazine, and you guys have all got to go to his website, which we have at the end of the program and check out a copy of this magazine. It's really great. Today we're going to discuss energy system value proposition and the metric or the measurements of cost and efficiency versus value. So first of all, Toby, welcome back to the show. Oh, thank you. Aloha commander. Good to be with you. Yeah, great to have you back. And if you could just bear with me, I'm going to do like an opening monologue, which is kind of new for me to do. So I'm going to be doing a little bit of talking. So the questions I'm going to be posing to Toby are basically, are we using the right metrics when evaluating energy system value? So would it be better to evaluate the overall value proposition of the system, for example, the services that are actually provided rather than keying on a single aspect of the system like the systems overall round trip efficiency, which we hear a lot about from people who are kind of anti hydrogen critics, but they have their opinions, but maybe round trip efficiency might not matter. The energy service provided may be more important or have more value to the end user than the round trip efficiency. And the end user may be willing to sacrifice the efficiency and cost to get the value of the service the system provides. So I want to talk a little bit about the parable of a light bulb. And this was introduced to me by my good friend, Dr. David Scott from the University of Victoria many, many years ago. So the parable of a light bulb is basically back in the days before light bulbs or when they were just coming on. People used oil lanterns and used either kerosene or even whale oil, if you can believe it, to light their houses. And electricity was very, very expensive compared to oil lanterns, but it was the better technology and it was better because, A, it was cleaner. So the lady of the house or the gentleman of the house, I'll be even handed here, to light the lamp, they'd have to go fill the lamp with oil, they'd have to trim the wick, then they'd have to light it, then they'd have to adjust the wick height to get the right level of light. Meanwhile, this thing is giving off black smoke, which covers the walls. And eventually they're going to have to repaint the inside of the house, they're going to have to wash the walls down. So a lot of work, whereas kind of like a hydrogen vehicle versus an electric battery electric vehicle, at the flick of a switch, you have instant clean energy. And so in that case, people did not mind paying the extra money for electricity because of the value it gave them that overcame all those negatives that were associated with oil lanterns. And so this is kind of a theme I'd like to set for our discussion over the next now 25 minutes. So Toby, now that I've told everybody about the parable of light bulb, how might efficiency be related to life? And let's pull up our life slide. Well, efficiency is very important. But often when people discuss efficiency, sometimes they conflate the efficiency of a component versus the efficiency of a system. So I kind of look at it this way, you know, and imagine that you're a sailor, and you're sailing across the Pacific, you're in the middle of the ocean, suddenly a squall comes up and just destroys your rigging and swamps your boat, suddenly you're in the water, you crawl into your little safe raft, your life raft, and you're just amazed that your boat just went down. So you're alarmed. Now you're floating around for a couple of days, you're thirsty, you're hungry, you're worried, and what do you see an island? So you jump off your boat and you swim swim swim, you get to the island, you crawl, pull yourself up. And what do you see then? A coconut tree. You just can't believe it, you run to the coconut tree, you sit in its shade, you look around at the coconuts on the ground, you don't even have to climb, you just pick one up and you dehusk it, you crack it open, and you're just about to take the greatest gulp of coconut water anyone has ever taken. Does anyone think at that moment that the sailor's going to go, hey, wait a second, that coconut tree is less than two percent efficient? Well, that's thermodynamically, that's terrible, that's no good, I'm going to throw the coconut away. Would anyone do that? No, no, a coconut may be less than two percent efficient, but it's very good at making coconuts. And so your question is, what's the value? Is the number just something we throw away or something we hang our hat on, or do we look at what we get? So often a lot of people think about what things cost, but sometimes we should think about what things make. Well, let's talk about cost and what people are willing to pay. So let's pull up the next slide, which is a great example of how people are willing to pay a lot of money for electricity. So go ahead, Toby, go through this little slide. Well, you had a great story about, hey, how much is it worth? Now, if you look at a AAA battery and a AA battery, you know, it's convenient, we can carry them around, put them in cameras. But if you look at what you're actually paying for a kilowatt hour of energy, it's pretty expensive. The AA I think is somewhere around 330 and 890 is it? I can't quite see the screen, but that's the kilowatt hour cost of your AAA battery. And you'd normally think, oh, that's crazy, because we can get that for 10 cents, or in Hawaii about 35 cents. So why, what's the value of having this little battery? And I thought you had a great example. Well, how about a beacon? If you're a lost NC and you're that sailor in that boat, you're the sailor on the beach. Do you care that that little AAA battery was $890 a kilowatt hour? No, you want to save your life. And it's really worth that value. Or, you know, is it worth being able to power a flashlight with it? If you're stuck out in the middle of nowhere, you've got to change a spark plug in your car. And I think I'd be willing to pay $890 a kilowatt hour to save my life. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, efficiency really matters. But if we look at the earth, and we look at the plant kingdom, you know, we're talking about less than 2%, I think sugarcane can get up to 6%, but most plants are around two or under. But the plant kingdom produces all the oxygen and nutrition that our whole world depends on. Without plants, there's no humans or animals. Everything comes down to the plant kingdom. So even though those efficiencies may not be impressive to us, life is certainly a great value. And I just think that it's calling it a 2% and we should throw it away. If it gives you everything you want, is a lesson I think we should take to heart. So there's a lot of factors, efficiency of components, of course important. Of the system, more important. But what does the system give you? That is the question. Exactly. And the other factor that comes in with looking at overall efficiencies, what is the cost in this case of the electricity? So now solar is like about one or one and a half cents a kilowatt hour. And I think wind is down to about three or four cents on the mainland or even less. Whereas here in Hawaii, I'm paying 44 cents a kilowatt hour for my electricity over on the Big Island. So I care about how much electricity I use on the Big Island because I'm paying 44 cents a kilowatt hour. But if I'm only paying one or two cents a kilowatt hour, it's not as important. And I'm willing to do without. Or I'm willing to pay that little cost. And I'm not so concerned about the efficiency because I'm still getting my value that I want out of that system. Absolutely. You know, we talk about the high cost, for example, just talking about money of a barrel of oil. And now it's up around $100. And of course, everyone is, we've been for, well, for 300 years, we've been burning fossil fuels because they're cheap, easy to get. And we don't really have any penalty for the pollution. But in our day and age now, I think it's time to pay the piper. And the world is saying, look, you have overloaded us with carbon loading so much that the oceans are turning acidic, the atmosphere soils and our biology are being affected. So what is considered kind of cheap energy, maybe the most expensive of all. And it's interesting in a barrel of oil, you know, there's something like 26,000 man hours of energy in one barrel of oil. So if you could hire 26,000 men to dig a ditch for an hour, and you pay $100 for that, I'd say that's a pretty good deal. That's a great deal. Yeah, it all comes down to perspective. And here we are as human beings, you know, in our modern world, we devour energy. And we're close approaching 8 billion people on earth. And they all have a right to our history. They all have a right to medical treatment. They all have a right to breathe air. Everyone is as a human being has a dignity that we should preserve. And so now we're at a moment in history, which is perhaps the most important of our entire civilization. And that is, how are we going to go forward without collapse? Because fossil fuels are toxic. This is a problem because we base our economy on burning fossil fuels. But now the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, has said in their COP26 last October, that if we don't cut our emissions, our toxicity by half, within eight years, it's over. You may not be able to stop the runaway earth. And a runaway earth is not a good place for people to be on. And since we don't have any other earths, we really need to take this moment and not be caught up on numbers so much. But look at what you're suggesting, the entire value proposition across the entire value chain. This is what matters. Exactly. And you know, let's not compare a hydrogen bus cost to a diesel bus cost because we've already made the decision to convert from diesel to both battery electric buses and fuel cell electric buses. So why are we even looking back? We've made that decision. So it doesn't matter what that diesel bus cost because we've made the decision we don't want to have diesel anymore. So let's stop doing that. It's nuts. Let's try to obviously try to get the cost of the both types of buses as low as possible. And let's try to find energy sources that are as inexpensive as possible. So for example, on the big island, Riley Sato, my favorite guy over there, he's come up with an idea, a concept of using the waste, the municipal solid waste to produce the hydrogen to power the municipal bus fleet for the public transportation. And it works out to really low cost per gasoline gallon equivalent. It's cheaper than what we're going to be paying now. And the other thing is you can project what it's going to be 10 years ahead of time. We have no idea what diesel it's going to cost, you know, five months from now. And it's up and down and how do businesses plan their business when they don't know what their energy cost is going to be. So what's the value proposition here of being able to actually nail down what your electricity costs are going to be? And you're putting in systems that you're basically like you know, I talked about yesterday, we're paying ahead so that we have that capability of producing cheap electricity, for example, for 20 years, because we know it's going to be there. Absolutely. And you know, we use a lot of energy we talked about, you know, we use 20% electricity in the world of our energy demand. 80% is chemical fuels. So we use gasoline, diesel, aviation fuel. Those are the two things that we need to do. And what I really love about your work on the big island with your hydrogen station, you're using a big solar array to convert photons directly into electrons. And these electrons are green electrons, there's no toxicity in that step. Then you run an electrolyzer, which makes hydrogen from water. And don't worry, we'll get the most of the water back when you recombine it in a fuel cell. But in this electrolyzer, we have an amazing ability to now make green molecules. So if you take everything away, just forget everything anyone has ever said about energy. If you boil it down to one thing, it's green electrons making green molecules. Well, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, I just want to say. Yeah, well, that that's what you are demonstrating in Hawaii. That's why everyone in the world and everyone in certainly the United States owes you a debt of gratitude, because you guys are not words, your deeds, and the demonstration of this ability where everyone in the world can tap into green electrons making green molecules, then they're independent. We don't have the kind of mafioso petro state kind of things that we're seeing going on in the world and have been going on for a long, long time, because it's so valuable to have a hole in the ground that you've been pumped something out for a nickel or a dime and sell it for a hundred dollars. It's just a scene profit. And maybe the cost in different places is higher than a dime, but actually not too much near the surface. For example, in the Middle East, they don't have to pump, there's so much pressure, they put a straw in it and it comes out. So this, you know, this is not, this is no way to run a planet, holes in the ground surrounded by men with guns. So it's important in what you're demonstrating and everyone should come to Hawaii, see what you're doing, embrace what you're doing, because we don't have any more time. We don't have time to kind of entertain this and a little of that, or maybe it's this over there. No, you've cut through all of it and said, look, folks, at the end of the day, it's electricity and chemicals, chemical fuels. If we use hydrogen, there's no toxicity through the whole thing. And so you simultaneously solve all these global problems. And if we have greenhouse gases, NOx, socks, particulars, mercury, poisoning, volatile organic compounds, endocrine disruptors, we are spewing and trashing the earth. And that's just not right. Now it was convenient, I get that and I understand that we've got a driver economy. But what you demonstrate in Hawaii on the big island is you can have all those things and not hurt anyone or any species. So this is the moment where we have to get serious and people should beat a path to your door because you're turning sunlight and water into public transit. This is why I love having this guy in the show. But I have to qualify a little bit. I'm not quite 100% renewable. In fact, I'm maybe halfway there on the big island. Right now I'm hooked into the grid. On the big island, the grid is about 80% renewable during the day when the sun is shining, drops down around 50% at night. I mean, I would like to be able to get there, but when we first put the station, it was impossible. But that's where we want to get to. And there's no impediments now of why we can't do that. So I just have to throw that little qualifier in there so that we have entirely accurate. I'd like to go to the next slide though, which talks about the value propositions between the battery electric vehicle and a fuel cell electric vehicle. So over to you, Toby, this is your slide. So I'd like you to go through. It's kind of busy. So we want to get the top level concept out. Yeah, let me explain where this comes from. Because of copyright issues, I couldn't show you the original graph that was produced by the World Bank in the UN. But what I did is I took their numbers and their logic and I just transcribed them except for the very bottom. That's where I'm going to make a correction. But I'd like to walk through and now they titled this cars, battery electric most efficient by far. But I'm going to add a little question mark at the end of that claim. And let's just take a look at the reality of this, because it's often claimed in a dismissive way. Well, the round trip efficiency of a battery is over 90%. Why would you consider anything else? Well, there's a lot of reasons. One of them is that's only true in a laboratory condition, in a laboratory setting where all the wires are connected. Now you definitely can get a 90% round trip. But when we look at this graph, what they're saying is on both sides, there's a left side and the right side left side is the battery electric vehicle. The right side is the fuel cell electric vehicle. And on the left side with batteries, what they're saying is we're going to take 100% renewables and we're going to charge battery electric vehicles. Well, the devil's in the details. So since batteries are in cars and cars drive around, they're not connected to the source. The problem with this is renewable is renewable energy is a real time proposition. When you make solar, you're making electricity right there. And then you've got to do something with it. And if you don't do something with it, then it's curtailed, it's wasted, it's turned off. So in reality, what they're saying here is, okay, we're going to start with 100% renewables and we're going to charge, we're going to put it on the grid. So that way later in the night when people want to charge their battery electric vehicles, they can use that energy. Well, that's not quite true because one, it's not so easy to put energy on a grid. You have to have permission. You know, it's not in the old days, we had net metering. And then we had feed-in tariffs, which were ways people could put solar in the grid. But that was discontinued because a complaint was made that so much solar was coming on that it was over-energizing if there's no load. It over-energizes the circuits and that causes a condition called arc flash, which is dangerous because the electricity tries to find another path. So it is extremely important to balance and measure the grid. Now, what they're saying in this graph is that they're only losing 5% and going into the grid. And they're just blanketly assuming that's the case. So they come up with a number of 95% of your renewable energy before you put it in the car. Little dubious because they don't account for taking it out so much. Nevertheless, let's go on. So with their numbers, they say, okay, when you're going to charge your battery electric car, you're using AC power from the grid, that has to be rectified to DC power. That's correct because a battery is DC, direct current. So they say that's about a 5% loss. Fine. Then they say in their chart that when you charge the battery, there's only a 5% loss in the act of charging. I find that a little bit questionable because when you fast charge a battery, batteries don't like it. They protest, they push back, they get hot. They're saying, hey, too much, too much, too much. But we say, hey, we're humans, you're a battery, do it. So the batteries protest, they get really hot. And that's not so good for a battery. And in their little chart here, they're not really accounting for the cooling energy that the batteries have to then produce to cool down the battery itself. Because if the battery gets too hot and goes in a runaway and you can't stop, the what's going to happen next, which isn't good. So when I go through their numbers, they say, okay, now the battery is DC. Once we've got the charge, now we're going to convert it to AC. And that will, because the traction motor is an AC motor. So they account for that, this 5% loss and then a 10% for the motor. So if we go on the left side, down to the, what they claim, they're saying the round trip efficiency is 73%. Well, there's a little bit of a problem with that. And I can explain it, but first let me go over the other side. So they're going to compare it to a fuel cell electric vehicle. And they're starting with 100%. And they're driving an electrolyzer, which is going to make hydrogen. But here's the thing, the solar and renewable energy is connected 100% of the time to the electrolyzer. So if you make wind, and you have solar, and you make electricity, you're getting direct credit for that making hydrogen, clean hydrogen. But the battery electric guys, they're not connected. In fact, if you look at how often a battery is plugged in, the battery car, it's about 15% because the rest of the time it's being a car, got to drive around and go places. So there's something called a capacity factor. And that simply means, you know, how available is a given resource? So if we talk about solar, you know, obviously at night, you can't have access to the sun. So in a 24 hour period, you're not going to have 100% capacity factor. No, it's more like 30 or 35. In the Anaconda desert in Chile, they're so high up and there's no moisture, they get direct beam, they're actually over 50%. The best solar in the world is in Chile. But the issue here is as being connected. So if you're not connected 100% of the time, there's kind of a problem here. So the claim is that only they have to just make a renewable, put it on a grid, and that's it. Well, no, that's not. You know, in the laboratory condition, all the batteries wires are connected all the time when you charge and discharge to claim 90%. But in the real world, that just doesn't happen. So when we actually apply a 15% capacity factor, the actual efficiency of the system is around 11% by my reckoning. So when we look at the other side, the green hydrogen side, where you're taking 100% renewables attached to your electrolyzer, making the hydrogen, as we go through, they say you're going to lose about 30%. Okay, I'll take that number. That's fine. Then down below that, they say, well, the hydrogen's got to be transported and compressed and distributed. Well, not exactly. In a station, if we're just talking about a station, we're not really transporting the hydrogen anywhere, it's going directly to storage. So it's fair to say you have a compression efficiency cost. But that's really about 11%, not 26%. So I have a little issue with that. That's a little self-serving in this document, which is trying to promote a battery. So as you go down, now they say it's 52% at that point. And then when you run the fuel cell, which is the hydrogen to the electricity part, they're saying that's only 50% efficient. You're going to lose half on that component. Well, that's not quite true. It depends on the fuel cell, depends on the conditions, of course, but it's a little better than that. So there's a little bit of a fudge there. And then again, they go through, well, DC then goes to AC, 5% loss, and then the traction motor another 10%. So when they go through their calculation, they come up with 22% as a round-trip efficiency. But I would argue that, hey, you're not really comparing apples to apples since you're not wired up on the other side and claiming that it's the same. It's not. And so I say on that first thing where they're taking 26% off for transport and distribution, I say, no, no, no, it's really should be 11%. You should give us back 15%. And on the other, on the fuel cell, you should give us a little bit back on that. And the biggest problem with this analysis is it assumes that all of the waste heat that we create on the fuel cell side or the electrolyzer side is wasted. Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be wasted. We could collect a little bit of that in preheat water for other uses. If you're a hotel or a restaurant or a resort, you might like a little bit of water, hot water. So I think in all fairness, they ought to give us back about 10% given those two things. So the number I come up with in reality is around 47%. So that's very much more efficient than the battery. And the issue is now if we had wires down the road where people could have inductive charging while they're driving, okay, that could mitigate that that capacity factor. But it's unfair to ignore it to just say, oh, folks, it's so simple renewables into a battery car. That's all you got to know. Devil's in the details. So that's a little bit disingenuous. And this was pushed and now everyone is going for battery cars. And I must say, look, if you're out there and you bought a battery car, are you going to more power to you? You're using your hero, you're using your purchasing power to move the ball down the field. I say good, because you made a decision for your household. That's one thing. But when we talk about public policy, where we're going to try and electrify a large number of vehicles, I mean, there's something like 900,000 cars and trucks on a lot who alone, which is impressive. That's a lot of cars. In fact, I think it's so much cars that if everyone drove at once, you wouldn't have streets. But that's just we all love our cars. Americans love cars. Everyone loves cars. They're very handy. But it's a big challenge now for the policymakers, which are kind of going with this chart and saying to everybody, hey, we're going to spend billions of dollars on a battery charging system. And, you know, there's some problems there because of the grid. And the grid was designed to provide electricity for consumers. It was never designed to handle transportation loads. And I'll give you an example. Hang on. Let's go to slide seven. Oh, please. So here's a little sketch of all of transportation, the sector of transportation. At the upper left, you have a little car. Forgive my sketching. But you'll see, I'm just trying to go around and talk about all the vehicle types we have. You have light duty cars and trucks. You have medium duty vans and buses. You have heavy duty semis and even larger articulated buses. We have farm equipment. You have combines, tractors, dump trucks, mining equipment, construction equipment. These are big loads. There's nobody saying we're going to build dump trucks with batteries. And the reason isn't to disparage batteries. It just comes down to when you move vehicles, there's really two numbers that really matter. And that's of the engine and the fuel. And that's the power density and the energy density. Now, the power density with a battery is pretty respectable. If you've been in an electric car and you've pushed down the accelerator, man, you go, because you can get 100% torque with no RPM. You just short the battery across the motor and you go. The problem becomes the energy density of a lithium ion battery. And as an example, it's measured at the top around 300 watt hours per kilogram. Well, hydrogen's 40,000 watt hours per kilogram. So there's a big difference on the energy side. That's why the big makers like Volvo, yes, they're doing battery cars, but they're doing fuel cells too, because they want to make sure whatever the customer wants, they can sell you a vehicle. And they're smart to do that. So the fuel cell is a marvelous machine. It's incredibly simple and solid state mostly. I mean, maybe some valves clicked on and off, but the actual action are just electrons and ions, gases, and liquids moving through this stack. And just to give people a visual of it as a fuel cell and an electrolyzer are very, in fact, almost identical. And they look like the long play records to the old days. And you stack up a bunch of those. That's why we call them a stack, because they kind of look like a stack of records. In this case, in the fuel cell, an electrolyzer made of carbon. And we put membranes between them, but you stack it up like a sandwich, clamp it down. And an electrolyzer and a fuel cell, kind of brother and sister, they're kind of mirror images because they each have two inputs and two outputs. If you disregard heat for a moment, there's a little bit of heat in both, but the two inputs are on an electrolyzer is electricity, there's your green electrons, and water. And the two outputs that come out are hydrogen and oxygen. Now you keep those separate, you can store enormous amounts of energy. And then here's the trick. When you want electricity, you just let them snap back together through a fuel cell. And they have the two inputs, two outputs. The inputs was the hydrogen and oxygen, and the output goes back to electricity and water. Now you're losing a little bit through all of this, but it's a water cycle, folks. Earth is covered with water. You're mostly made of water. How amazing is it that our industrial salvation is based on water? So let's go to slide six. And we'll wrap it up with this slide, Toby. Oh, okay. Oh, this one, I like this one. I love this one. I almost feel like humanity is in a game show. It's almost like we have a fossil grid and a water grid. It's exactly right. So if you throw that back up, I'll kind of explain what I'm doing here. I'm saying that actually you've got door number one and door number two. And frankly, there are no other doors. It's door number one or door number two. Door number one is business as usual. It's the fossil fuel economy that has driven our economy worldwide for 300 years, not easy to want to change. There's some entrenched interests make a lot of money doing it right now. BP announced the biggest profits in a quarter they ever had. 50,000 million. That's not bad in 30 days. 50 billion. That's a big number. And that's one company. And they make a lot of money selling it because you need it. And there's, you know, you got to go to work. You got to heat your home. You got to cook for your family. You need energy. We need energy. Everybody needs energy. So what we have is we are at the crossroads. On the left, you have the fossil fuel economy. And I put a lump of coal there to kind of visualize it. Under that, I put the chemical formula from methane, CH4. So you see the world is hydrogen stuck to some carbon. That's a hydrocarbon. That's a fossil fuel, hydrogen and carbon. So what are the characteristics? Well, it's toxic. It's limited. It's inequitable because some people have it and most people don't. It's non-renewable. We're not making any more coal, oil and gas in our lifetime. It's a variable cost, which you mentioned earlier. How do you plan? What's the cost of energy? So vital. If you were a trucking company, you're pulling your hair out. You're going to look like me pretty soon. Because how would you build your cost? You don't. And it's really a tough thing. So that I say the future is unknown, except that you are in a crash course for collapse. And anyone can argue, oh, we can last 10 years, five years, five months, 50 years, take your shot. But at the end of the day, you will collapse. It's absolutely a scientific fact. It's like going in the garage, turning on your car, closing the garage doors. How long are you going to last? Well, you can debate it, but you will expire. Don't do that at home. So let's go on the right hand side. Yeah, let's go to door number two. Give us some hope here. Yes. Door number two is the answer to everything. And a lot of technocrats and energy experts don't want to admit that, but actually, because they make a fine living making this a complicated thing. But at the end of the day, it's sunlight and water. That's what you do in Hawaii. It's what you're demonstrating. So they really can't deny it. But let's look at the characteristics. It's non-toxic. So you can use as much as you want. Anyone could. You're not going to hurt anybody. It's unlimited. And I put a hyphen there. I realize unlimited is an hyphen. But I wanted to emphasize unlimited. That's a big deal. It's equitable because everyone in the world can tap into it. You don't need to go to war to get other resources for energy. You have it falling on your head. Wonderful. It's a fixed cost. So there's no fuel cost or pollution. And so it's just hardware. That's just a fixed cost. So you know what your planned maintenance is. You know what your costs are. As you point out, there are no unknowns. On the left-hand side, we have total unknowns. On the right-hand side, you don't have any unknowns. Everything is quantified. And therefore, it makes a known a future. And the result is we can thrive. This is the point. The children, the young people, and I'd like to just mention this. I have two nieces that are four years old, really cute as a button, smart, cute little kids, right? It occurs to me that if they can live to my age right now, it's going to be the year nearly 2080. So everything we do or fail to do for those kids, their lives depend on it, on getting it right. And so I urge everyone in this moment, let's not kick the can down the road and say, well, we'll figure it out in 10 years and 15 years. We don't have it. We got to save the young people of the world and give them a future that all of humanity dreamed of. The liberty, the art, the science, the achievements of human kind is marvelous. We have a great future. And in the future, if we can get there, they will look back and said, well, finally, they stood up together and found a common solution to solve all these global problems simultaneous. Bravo, Commander. That's what you do in Hawaii. Right on. Well, thanks, Toby. I just like to throw up the last slide, which is how you can get hold of Toby and his wonderful magazine. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's Green Hydrogen Today. It's an app. So what you do is go to the Apple App Store or Google Play and search Green Hydrogen. You'll find me. You can download it for free. And then you'll see there's the seven issues that we've done so far. You just tap on one of them, and then it'll show you like a free preview for the first 15 pages or so. But we have great features, but then you have an option if you want to download the whole issue, which is about 130 pages, something like that each. But what's neat about the app is I list all of every quarter, I list all of the publicly, not all of them, but the major publicly traded stocks, people can see what their year to date performance is. I have apps like for Green Hydrogen Jobs. So if you look for a job you like, click on it, it gives you a job description, takes you right there. And I'm really proud of our Green Hydrogen Industry Index. So if you want to know what companies make electrolyzers, who makes fuel cells, who does engineering services for this industry, all you do is look down the category, tap on the logo, and you're there. Now we put it in a magazine format because we have great interviews and articles. It's just a dynamic industry mobilizing worldwide. We have some very bright spots in America. You're one of them for sure. And this is what I think we all need to embrace. And we can do it. We can save the world, but only in one way. We do it together and we do the same local solution. Okay. Well, we've got a veil on this show. So we'll leave it there. You've been watching Hawaii, the state of clean energy on Think Tech Hawaii. And today we've been talking about the energy system value propositions and how they compare to the usual metrics of cost and efficiency. So thanks, Toby. Always interesting hearing your point of view. And also thanks to our viewers for dialing in. And we will be back in two weeks with another show for Hawaii, the state of clean energy. Aloha, everyone. And Aloha, Toby. Aloha. Mahalo.