 Good morning. Good afternoon or good evening, depending on where you may be. I'm Andres Martinez, the editorial director of Future Tents at New America and a professor of practice at the Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University. Welcome to our virtual event today entitled How Soft is the Power of Sport, which is a joint production of the New America National Fellows Program and ASU's Convergence Lab. At ASU, this is also part of our university-wide series of conversations and events called Sparky's Cup that are being held in advance of the FIFA Men's World Cup to be held in Qatar this month already. Boy, it time flies. And as you can tell, I am ready for the World Cup. Well, maybe you can't see, but I've got my Mexico jersey on. So, you know, I'll probably be wearing it for two months straight. Let me quickly switch over to Spanish for one second, para darle la bienvenida a quien nos están viendo en México en otras comunidades hispanoparlantes. Si desean seguir la conversación en español, hay una liga que pueden en el inferior de su pantalla, donde va a haber interpretación, traducción simultánea si lo quieren escuchar en español y bienvenidas. So today's our long event is going to feature two different conversations, one on the geopolitical significance of sport broadly speaking. The second conversation will be a little bit more focused on on Qatar, the complicated issues surrounding that World Cup and how we should feel about them. I have been so looking forward to hearing from this fabulous group of people on this topic and I hope you will enjoy this, this event as much as I do so thank you so much for joining. I should start off by making note of the fact that Leon Krause, our good friend at Univision had a last minute conflict arise and he sends his regrets. But we're incredibly fortunate that Carlos Bravo Regidor is able to step in on short notice despite his own very busy schedule. Carlos as many of you will know is one of Mexico's most prominent political analysts, historians. We have collaborated a lot with Carlos at the Cronkite School on journalism when when he was building out the journalism program at at CD. He's prolific podcaster radio personality TV, in addition to being a columnist at Reforma. And Carlos has done a lot of thinking and writing on this intersection of sport and politics. Indeed one of our very first convergence lab events in Mexico City featured Carlos on this topic so I'm really grateful Carlos that you could join us. And Anne Marie Slaughter is CEO of New America, as I'm sure you will all know. Everybody gets asked to speak on a wide variety of topics. I'm guessing sport isn't on the very top of that list, given your, your amazing trajectory and expertise on so many other subjects, but I was really eager to have you here today to help us put the sport in this geopolitical context. I mean you've been the director of policy planning at the US State Department, a dean of a school of international affairs at Princeton, the author of a book entitled the chess board in the web strategies of in a networked world and in New America, of course, you're advancing work across a number of subjects with an eye towards helping our nation fulfill its promise and its idea of itself. So I very few people have thought longer and harder about America's role and image in the world. I'm going to start off by asking you is admittedly very broad question of, where do you fit in sport in when in thinking about, and as an aspect of global pop culture, and thinking about how America advances its, its interest, its image and to this term, which we reference in our title for the event of soft power I think the term was first coined by Joseph Nye, but I've been dying for months to ask you this question of, how do you think of sport. When you think of America's projection in the world, you're on you're on mute sorry. I did the same. I think that I probably have not thought enough about sport is one of the reasons I was really interested to be part of this conversation, because the minute you do think about it, it's clear that it is an enormous part of our soft power. And just again to set the stage, hard power. This was Joseph died, but it was also Suzanne nozzle, although Joe Nye really point soft power hard powers the power of compulsion, you make somebody do something soft power is the power of attraction, where you want to do something that somebody else is doing because it's cool because you admire them. At that point of view, Hollywood was the original soft power and as you watch India rise you can see Bollywood and Bollywood across the Middle East and other places so really the first thing people think about is our entertainment industry they think about Hollywood and many other ways that we project images of American life into the world, but sports is a close second, except that until quite recently, sports have underlined American exceptionalism. We are the only people in the world who play American football or at least the way right there's Australian football there's rugby, but that was an exceptional American thing. We are the only people who played baseball that's no longer true of course there's Japan and their Central America. Our sports were part of our narrative that we were always so somewhat apart right that is changing basketball has been huge that way right that NBA is a huge source of our soft power and our players play around the world and many other parts of the world play, but the global sport is, but here again, I'm going to say soccer. We're the only country that calls it soccer England doesn't call it soccer football and I've had it explained to me why we call it soccer, but there again so even this sport that is really the global sport and I should say I'm half Belgian and I spend a lot of time in Italy with myself and a Zuri fan and a very disappointed one right now. You know we have not been able to participate. The rise of soccer in the United States, particularly women, I do think is a key part, not just of our soft power but I'd actually, I'd say now are connecting to the world in a different way, and particularly the African America connecting because in this century very quickly in the next two decades, we will become we will not have a white majority. We will be the biggest plurality group will be white but the next biggest plurality group will be Hispanic and virtually will be following global soccer and they will be part of it. And then all the other groups that we are, and many new African Americans coming from African countries now, people coming from from the still parts of Europe. But, but again, mostly Latin America and Africa parts of Asia, soccer is less less critical in Asia. That is connecting us to the world, and we will then be able to participate in a way that I would have said until now sport was part of our soft power but it was it was sending a slightly different message. And it's amazing that you reference some some of that history you references amazing. I can recall, I grew up in Mexico I came to states and I was 15 and, and, and felt very cut off from the rest of the world when it came to sports now that's changed. I'm dating myself this was like the early 80s, and it was always kind of amusing to us in Mexico to that the US could have domestic sports leagues and proclaim its winners world champions. I also had a pen and of the Steelers in my room growing up because we did watch the NFL a lot, and it said world champions, and I was a big Steelers fan but I, even I thought that was a little bit off. But at the same time, we were very much drawn to follow American sports because of just the impact of American pop culture and, and growing up I mean I learned all my US geography and I think all my other middle school friends in Chihuahua, Mexico, we, we knew over the US, the map because we knew that the Steelers played with the Browns and the bangles and like so we learned about all of this. But Carlos I want to I want to, I want to ask you for your opening reflections on on the South power of sport, you know, whether connected to sort of your your idea of the US but also more broadly. Well, first of all, let me say something about like the prehistory of this phenomenon, because you, you know, in the 20th century we grew used to the fact that these events so to speak where we're now we that we associate with where we are like like like the key platforms, but there is a prehistory of events just like this, in which countries really promoted or try to project and create soft power, which were international exhibitions, or the most famous of which were Chicago, Paris, London with the Crystal Palace. I mean, this is a very 19th century phenomenon. And we must remember that nations are very young historical creatures. This was one of the mechanisms or the devices through which nation nations sort of presented themselves to the world. There's a little one over here, and I think he wants to speak out. I'll let him speak in a second. But so the thing is this, these exhibitions sort of created an international market for national images. Where all countries participated one way or another, you know, and it was unavoidable that the national image had to be designed on the one hand in order to reflect the priorities mostly of the governments involved, but also the expectations of the publics. And in this case, the publics were not only the people attending the exhibitions, of course, but also the other countries. Right. So this was not only a matter of soft power, but a matter let's put it this way of soft geopolitics involved. You know, and Mary was talking about the difference between compulsion and attraction. And I think that that a third concept that's very relevant for this is persuasion. What these exhibitions wanted to do was to persuade other countries that they were what they wanted to be. And of course, this was an artifice. Of course, everybody dressed up for the party, you know, whether best dress their best tie, you know, they had to get a haircut, they had to, you know, give themselves good makeup. And this but this was sort of a game of mirrors, so to speak, where everybody was there to watch and be watched. I think that to a certain point, World Cups and Olympic Games still bear the mark of that origin. Even though introducing sport, you know, does does something to it. It's not the same. I think it's a change. It makes it more massive. Of course, a lot more pop, as you were saying. And there's also, I think an important difference in terms of the protagonist of, you know, sports people of the very players, you know, in the case I think this is interesting in the case of Olympics takes take place in a city. World Cups take place in a country. You look at the characteristics, you know, the sports in general World Cups are a very, very elite event. You know, most of the people that play in the World Cup, playing European leagues, for instance. There are, you know, teams that the big teams Barcelona Manchester United Real Madrid, where the whole team is present at the World Cup playing for different national teams. I think with Olympics that Olympics are a much more global event in that regard than World Cups. There are no qualifiers, for instance, for Olympics, and all of these I think it's important in terms of how we create an image of this country's an image of this nation of this nation sorry, and just to finish up like, you know, this intervention, I would like to say that my personal experience in that regard is a bit different, because most of my sports culture have very little to do with the United States. Number one, because I was, I was eight years old, when the second World Cup took place in Mexico in 86. And I remember very vividly, the strong bond that I created during that World Cup with Argentina. I knew nothing about Argentina, but it's national team, and Maradona, and you know, and the game with England and the, and the fact that there had been a war, and Argentina had lost the war, but had won the game. And it seems I'm a historian and of course I later I learned all the history, but at that point it was such an emotional bond or an emotional experience. And to this day, I still feel that sort of special connection with Argentina. Well, I think. No, no, no, go ahead, go ahead. Well, Carlos, no, I mean you raised so many interesting subjects and on the World's Fair, kind of segueing into World Cups and Olympic Games as these massive events where countries can tell a story about themselves and it is interesting that the early Olympics, not the classical times but the early Olympics of the 20th century were appendages to some of those world fairs and they were seen as sort of like the athletic exhibition within this broader, and they end up being becoming the main event. And your emotional connection to Brazil to Argentina and 86, I think Brazil is another example of a country that probably more than any other country branded itself through that incredible style of play and those teams that won the three World Cups and and recently Netflix had a really good documentary on Pele that came out that was really portraying how the military dictatorship in Brazil kind of exploited that national team to tell a story about Brazil. And also for Brazilians themselves, though, that team kind of re re re re imagined and redefined, you know this this country as a as a biracial multiracial society in a way that that few things other than sport could have could have done. And Marie on on the soft power of sport, you know, we, a lot of academics just in the last year have started throwing around this term of sports washing, right, and human rights activists that this idea that you have regimes that want to appropriate to refurbish their image, perhaps deflect from other subjects. We have a year that's bookended and with the Winter Olympics games in Beijing, and a World Cup and cutter, you know, the most notorious example of sports washing perhaps was 1936 with with Hitler hosting the Winter Olympics so this is, this isn't a new phenomenon. What new perhaps what's new perhaps is that the host nation. You know it's not a one way broadcast of this is what the story we're telling and I think what we've seen this year is you have we're going to we're going to hear more about this later with people like Michael Page from Human Rights Watch, you have this networked world that you've written about in that world you have activists and people being able to tell different stories the control of the message isn't what it quite used to be. And I wonder who wins out in that, you know, tug of war between the regime that wants to use these massive events to tell the story about themselves, and an opportunity. But I don't know if more people are aware of human rights abuses in cutter and think of that when they think of cutter than otherwise would, if cutter we're hosting a World Cup. You know, it's sort of an interesting to speculate about whether there could be, you know, at the end of the day might not be worth it. But countries like Russia and China continue to want to have these events so I guess they're calculating that it is. But it's hard to know and I'm looking forward to the second panel exactly to hear from experts on on the human rights dialogues. You know if I think about the Beijing Olympics. It was unbelievably tightly controlled, but in normal years, you would, you would have had much more interaction between the folks in the Olympic Village and the people in the country you would have had much, much greater freedom to attend lots and lots of different and simply then being exposed, not just to the dialogue but to the way different people are. You know it's always interesting to me to look at the difference between Chinese Americans and Chinese Chinese and I'm not 100% able to tell but generally they're just different postures different different kind of ways of being that I think are useful. I'll also know you remember in the so to Olympics that that Putin did not invade Ukraine the first time until that was over and again interestingly this year not until the Beijing Olympics were over. Clearly, there is an understanding there that the story they're trying to tell and major geopolitical events are connected. I would like to think that the, that you have to open to the world to a certain extent to be able to host one of these things and that at the very least, it's a two way flow. I do think though I'm Carlos I'm fascinated I went to the 1964 World's Fair and it was telling a story about my country to me, I still remember a deal of it. And so I think probably overall the government wins on that balance, but I don't see a world in which we would want to try to politicize the World Cup and it's rare right I mean Russia has been disinvited but in general, you don't want politics to to permeate sports beyond the really egregious. I just want to say one other thing that sports are the example I always use of how you have rivalry without enmity. And actually we need this far more in the United States right where if you disagree with somebody politically they are now other and they are demonized. But I often think sports are how you come together you know you support your own team, regardless, and that those are what, what Robert doll called cross cutting cleavages where you can disagree on a lot of things but be passionately united on others. And I'd like to think just exactly as Carlos said about his connection to Argentina, you know that that that's also true to some extent globally. We also have the example in the past of Mexico, trying to tell a story to the world about itself through by hosting the 19 the back to back 68 Olympics, the 1970 World Cup. And I don't have much time to get too much detail about it but tell us a little bit about kind of what the story was, was then and was that an example of of sports washing and obviously there was a lot of activism around around those those events and, and, and quite a tragedy and I think it was I mean Mexico was undergoing a process of modernization so to speak. And you know, in the history books this period is known as because, particularly because of the economic policies that took place. It's called stabilizing development, right. So Mexico has been very successful in portraying an image of itself after the Mexican Revolution. It was supposed to be the good revolution, particularly after the Cuban Revolution, right, where Mexico was a revolution that could have been that that was friendly to the United States, for instance, you know, in contrast with the Cuban Revolution, particular with the Spanish sort of, of, you know, later stage of the Cuban Revolution. But you know that image had run its course by the late 1960s, and Mexico I think was interested in portraying itself as a nation that deserve the place in the concert of more of developed or at least developing nations. And there was of course the narrative that was that they tried to project in this couple of events you were mentioning but you know, as you just said, you know control of the message has never been what it what the organizer organizers wanted to be in the case of you remember particularly two things one of course is as you mentioned the student protests that actually gained gained a lot of traction, precisely because of the Olympics, because they they were you know in defiance of that image of a prosperous peaceful school students were protesting, and that might actually have some weight in explaining why the repression was so harsh. But on the on the other hand, there was also you know the image of Tommy Smith and Jim and John Carlos. Yeah, you know with the black panther salute in the podium in 68 which was also you know that was so off script. It was something that a lot of people remember maybe that's, you know, one of the key images of those Olympics, and that was not of Olympic history. Yes. And it was not part of the plan at all that's also something beautiful about this you know, there's always this tension between the image that wants to be portrayed, and the image that people end up getting, you know that they they don't necessarily want to go inside. One more thing about that I think is, you know how, in many ways, you know the internationalization of national football leagues has also you know created a new phenomenon of a certain cosmopolitanism. You know, in in team loyalty, you know, Barcelona has fans all over the world, probably more than in Barcelona. How many Catalan's play for Barcelona how many Spaniards play for Barcelona right. I mean, I think this is also so it's a very European phenomenon. You know, I was trying to to compare I didn't have time to actually put the comparison together. So I just suggested here, if you look at soccer teams in Europe, particularly the big ones, against NFL teams, for instance, how many foreigners play there. And how, you know, how does that composition affect the terms of identifications that fans have towards these teams. You know, I think something along those lines also translate translates to soccer. Yeah, I went to a game in Wolverhampton in the north of England and and that whole community feels very close to Mexico and have learned a lot of our Mexican culture, because the one strike because their star player for a number of seasons was Michael Road, Jimenez and if it's an amazing bond that's a soft power player in a most improbable setting. Time is flying by and I do want to say with second conversation this has been a great opening but just to finish off this conversation. You know, we're about to look more at the particulars of cutter, but Anne Marie Carlos looking beyond cutter the next men's World Cup of course in 2026 is in North America it's going to be shared by Canada. Mexico in the US the three North American countries and that's kind of an interesting opportunity for what what kind of storytelling. Are we going to tell about our region by hosting that World Cup I don't know if you have any sort of closing thoughts on that or suggestions and we have four years to figure out what the story is but I love that I didn't realize that but that is such a powerful statement to say North America when does North America do anything and when does all when do all three countries in North America because so many Americans people from the United States, when they think North America they think the United States and Canada. And of course, in this context, Mexico will definitely have the leg up, which is an excellent thing. So I do, I think that's a real statement I mean Carlos said the World Cup is countries what where the Olympics are really cities, and the idea that this is three countries. You know imagine if it were the EU, although it really couldn't be because it's too big. Well no, it's the same size so imagine if the whole you did so I think that's a, that's a signal statement about a cross cultural connection in through sport and through thinking about power a different way. And it'll be our 250th anniversary in the US which I since independence which I know you're working on. God knows any any marketing advice for the 20s. You know, I, I might bring a bit of a more pessimistic note because I remember that when when that World Cup was planned originally know the prospects for the North American experiment were a lot brighter than they are today. But you know, maybe this is this is a message of resilience that in spite of these you know new waves of nationalistic authoritarianism or populism or whatever you want to call it. You know, the integration of these countries, the regionalism that is taking place will survive and sports is a great platform for that. Yes. Well that's that's kind of optimistic in terms of the sports influence there. And Marie Carlos thank you so much for for joining us. Really appreciate your participation. And I could talk to, to both of you for hours about this, but we do want to segue into our second panel. And so let me introduce. And first of all, this I was going to hand off the moderating the time for the second panel to Scott Brooks, my ASU colleague who directs our global sport Institute, but he also had an unavoidable opportunity to present itself. So you're stuck with me for another half hour. But I'm excited to welcome for this conversation. Lisa Claviness, and I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly we didn't have a chance to talk before. Okay. She is a former star football player, a lawyer and the president of the Norwegian Football Federation, and Michael Page, who is the deputy director for the Mina division at Human Rights Watch the Middle Eastern Africa division at Human Rights Watch and our own new America Fellows program alum. My good friend, Frank for who's a staff writer at the Atlantic and of course, authored the best seller easy. He's the author of the best selling book how soccer explains the world, an unlikely theory of globalization. I mean, quite. I feel like just a few years ago but maybe it's now like a couple of decades ago and yet you were ahead of your time in terms of thinking about explaining the world through sport. So that thanks to all of you for joining. And let me start off with you Lisa. You gave a remarkable address at the FIFA Congress and Qatar earlier this year. You said where you said among other things that let me read over here in 2010. The World Cup was awarded by FIFA and unacceptable ways with unacceptable consequences. Human rights, the quality democracy the core interest of football were not in the starting 11 until many years later. I found that very powerful. My question now is, how should players and federations react to being told to go play in a nation that doesn't uphold some basic rights. I mean, how do you advise people to approach that. Thank you for having me here. I'm actually at UEFA headquarters today. So, so I'm at the little sister of FIFA. I had a graduation this day for a master from international player actually. So I prioritize to still come to you guys before going to the dinner. Thank you. We know it's late there. So thank you so much. No, no, it's not that late. It's, it's, it's a difficult question to answer short on, you know, it's, it's been 10 years, 12 years of, of agony and this case for many of us. And, and I don't remember it was Anna Marie or who said it but the core, the core value of football is to bridge people. It is to have the ball running in my view, regardless to have it is to have United States to play against Iran or to have Russia to play against whoever. So, so, so to have, you know, steep fronts and to have boycotts in football, you know, it's not not where we should end. But still, you know, this, this award in 2010 really shocked everyone. And it's not just one parameter that shocked that because you end up, you know, in one corner of discussion all the time. What about Russian and what about Argentina, what about, but you know, this, this, this whole cake, you know, this whole cocktail, it ended up, you know, have no legitimacy. And then, and then the risk for breaking human rights was, you know, very foreseeable, more foreseeable in any historic award before this, and it also ended up breaking human rights for very many years. And then you've had very many important law reforms in Qatar, which should be applauded, even though they're not really implemented on all aspects. It should be applauded, but that does not justify the wrongdoing when the award happened because we're not human rights organizations and we can never justify awards by making law reforms five years because it's, it's, it's not FIFA's, UEFA's or the Federation's core business to do so. And I think it's dangerous when, when football organizations or other organization for that matter, pretend that the core business to justify something is, is to sort of change the world because we, we, we do football, you know, and football touches upon politics, of course it does because it's a lot of money. It's a lot of stakes. It's a lot of joy. It gathers the world like nothing else. And of course it's politics, but it should come from football, but this award may made us through as everyone, everyone of us out on, you know, the fields of politics. And, and then it's, it's, it's very difficult. So, your question was, I guess, how should Federation react? I don't have the answer to that. I, my Federation and my members have, have decided to, to, to, to take all necessary measures to, to use this platform, not to be activist or populist or, but to be as credible and insightful as we can, so that this never happens again. And that we use the responsibility we have as members of FIFA. Now, to try to really implement the changes that should happen, not because that's our core business and not that I would justify anything, but now we're in it. And now we have to stick together, try to do that. I feel like a lot of players, managers, federations are grappling with, with the right tone or actions to take going to Qatar. Many of you might have seen, there was a very poignant video from, from the Australian teams and the soccer ruse talking about they have the right to organize as professional footballers and they wanted to empathize with the workers in, in, in Qatar. And, and also with LGBT community. It was very poignant and the Danish team going to Qatar has also, I think, spoken out and taken some action, but Lisa, are you disappointed that there hasn't been more or do you find like these expressions are, are heartening, and should, in your mind, a full boycott have been more of a, of a action that should have been contemplated I feel like that was in the conversation but never really something that seemed a path that many countries or even a few countries were really willing to consider. I would say it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a matter of the time, timing you're asking you know, after the award, it was not a legitimate award it was very obvious for everyone, even though we did not find the smoking gun that that's just because it's, it's trans countries is beyond borders so you don't have the same you know momentum to go into into the all the details I think it's very obvious that this was not, you know, a clean award. And then, then I don't want to talk about boycott then, then it should be, you know, redressed it should be done over again, and more countries should have demanded that back then so that it could have been moved, and so the contact was an opportunity to build infrastructure, you know, low to make the risk lower to have events, because this is the biggest event in the world so to start have no really you know impact in the football world and then to start with the biggest event in the world with a kafala system, which is basically you know, a modern slave system with no domestic workforce, and also, and also no women football or no real plant how to make it safe for LGBTQ people which are a part of the families with the risk was so so high so so I think in the first years we should all go into ourselves I'm also a leader of Federation so it goes to myself as well. We should have walked away from the table and made it, you know, make the world again. Now we're here. And now I think it's irresponsible to talk about boycott now now it's built the changes has been made. Some of the changes has been made also because of pressure from World Cup and now I think we have to walk the talk and it's also responsibility for us football leaders to protect the game. It should go the game should go. That's our job, you know, we if we don't believe in the power of football to unite people. It's not a cliche. And I hate when people, you know, and I understand that it's some sometimes made parody of it because it's so much. It's been so much problem with corruption sense and and and criminality in sport. It's still the biggest sport in the world it's still the most accessible sport in the world so it should go. We in Norway we had a boycott debate very upheated. So it's been different in the world in 2021 we had an extraordinary Congress where we had a vote if we should boycott or not and we've never in the history had such an extraordinary Congress before and and the members voted no that was when we were in the run for the work. Unfortunately, we did not qualify after that. So so in Norway that was a very interesting thing to be a part of from a democratic point of view, but most members decided not to boycott, but that we should work on very concrete measures to to have an strengthening of human rights in Norway in Europe and FIFA and in Qatar, not that norway can do all these things but that we should be agents of change for this. Frank, I want to turn to you and I should have mentioned I know that we don't have you until the end of the hour and you've been patiently listening to a lot of this and and you are a connector of dots extraordinary and if you were writing your book today. How would you discuss sort of where we are in terms of understanding globalization with this increasing it feels like mix of politics sport, human rights, you know, take us wherever you'd like in terms of reacting to understanding I think that the sports watching watching that's happening here in Qatar is connected to things that are happening in global sports writ large which is that you have a handful of small Middle Eastern potentates that have infinite amounts of money that they get that they get invest in sports and so part of it is indeed about soft power, but a lot of it is just about people with a ton of money pleasing themselves and self gratification cutters going on a gigantic ego trip here it's connected to commercial interest. For sure cutter is like, you know these countries. Specialized in shipping and they have airlines that they like this to talk as part of this, but I think that this is maybe one of the most grotesque spectacles in the history of global sports and because it's not just that you have an authoritarian regime using an event to buff its image. You have an event that was built on blood that the labor that went into constructing the stadiums resulted in deaths of a non trivial number of laborers who were treated in the most abysmal sort of way. And my fear with this World Cup is that we're going to walk into it, and because the spectacle of the sports is so addictive and so pleasurable to global audiences, even with the stark facts, sitting in front of us, we're going to neglect them and we're going to turn to the game, and we are going to repeat a lot of these cliches about how the game is good for humanity, but it was it was definitely not good for all the laborers who died in impossible conditions. And so, you know we're all going to wrestle with the morality of this because as fans, it's going to be impossible for us not to engage I know this for myself, like I, I'm not boycotting the games, I'm watching the games. And yet I know that makes me complicit with something very, very terrible. I'm so glad you raise this because I think it's, it's, it's a really uncomfortable truth. I mean it's one thing to talk about what all this means for nations right but in a in a time when we as consumers try to be more conscious about the sourcing of what we buy in our food and everything. This is the sourcing of our entertainment and like you, there's just no way I'm not going to watch a World Cup, you know these this is the high point of I can, like World Cups ever since I was, you know, a punctuate have been the punctuation marks in my life I can exactly what there's such a joy and john Oliver who's been a frequent critic of FIFA I heard him in an interview say he's watching, even though he knows all of this stuff and not and he's not sure what that says about him, but is there anything that we should do differently as we, you know, tune in and just stop thinking about what we've been thinking about and talking about as Lisa points out since the thing was awarded in 2010 and treat this like just another World Cup. I think that FIFA is an organization that's susceptible to public pressure. I mean, I wrote an article after the women's World Cup where I think I argued that we should just cancel the cutter World Cup and like redouble the resources into the women's World Cup where we have all of these extraordinary inequities in the way in which resources are developed but I think just as, as fans and people who are participating, it's kind of incumbent upon us to repeat it, both to learn the truth about what is happening in the run up to this World Cup. And so that we that that complicity is kind of always front and center. And I think it's important for us to keep having this conversation about the human rights travesties that were committed that will continue to be committed. I'm very interested to see how players behave because this is maybe one of the old sorry puppy is maybe one of the ultimate examples where you have a young workforce that's very politically committed. That you know, especially in the English League where taking a knee has been one of the rituals of the game. And you have a lot of players on the English team. You know, who said that they're very uncomfortable with what's going to be forced to contend with, and then they have federations who are kind of the older bosses who were content with kind of all of the moral, the moral compromises that are required in order to participate in global sports and so I'm very very fascinated to see how players respond and whether players kind of become the box popular and say the things and remember cutter is a place where certain sorts of dissent are not permitted. So the fact you know if you have players go into that type of context and start to loudly shout things who knows where that goes within the Middle East or within within this country itself it provides an example that could be unmistakable so that's something that I'm watching for. And that you know you talk about the whether it's it's an exercise in ego and because they have unlimited resources, but also perhaps for branding purposes, all of this investment coming into sport. And one thing that's that's changing is it's not just, oh I'm going to host a World Cup or an Olympic games it's now seeping into the sport that we enjoy your round right like they're acquiring the European clubs and the Saudis now want to have their own golf league you know live, and that's that's that's kind of a new one and you and I watch I think a lot of English Premier League. I'm an Arsenal fan I believe you are to we can feel kind of smug that our team doesn't happen to be one of the ones owned by, you know, the Saudis recently acquired new castle or in the up until the invasion of Ukraine you know the Russian oligarch own team. But yet, you know, again, thinking about the sourcing, like we have this deal with visit Rhonda sponsorship which raised has raised a lot of questions of human rights I mean. How do we do we just sort of like know it and look beyond it because, well I think part of what is. I mean we know this from other sports but what happens when you have these Petro States come into club ownership is they start to break the game itself where it becomes impossible for any other team to compete. So when you have Saudi Arabia and you have Abu Dhabi and cutter owning clubs and having the sovereign wealth funds essentially behind clubs and not necessarily expecting return and investment because it is about ego gratification or it is about soft power and fundamentally makes sports unfair and so I think that sports global sports is going to have to reckon with this fact and you know at some point. There probably should be a regulation that simply prohibits nations from buying soccer clubs because it ruins the surprise we know Man City is going to win every year because of Abu Dhabi is going to win every year. We know new castle is going to be, you know top 14 because of Saudi Arabia, and it's just not. It's just defeats the whole. Although legally I think that that regulations already in place right there's this. There's a wink about whether the sovereign wealth fund is the state and whether she. Is there financial fair play rules that supposedly strain what they can spend, but yeah, well Frank I need I know you have you have my daughter is playing in a semi final game for her school soccer team and so I need to. We need to go. We need to go. Yeah, yeah. Great talking to you. Thank you. Yeah, Michael. You are our human rights expert we've been talking about your subject and you must be sitting there thinking like, put me in coach. And to be fair to cutter. Or Qatar, I know there's multiple pronunciations. The Qataris have said that there's a bit of a double standard going on here. God was in our earlier conversation referenced his being a big fan of the Argentine national team in 86 the first World Cup I can remember watching was the night right really closely was 1978. I was I was a kid, but even then I was struck by those scenes of like all the military in the stadiums and the snarling dogs and I mean I didn't know there was a dirty war happening like literally as the World Cup was unfolding. But, you know, countries like Norway and Sweden and Denmark and, and the Netherlands have not been the only countries that have hosted sporting events in the past and so how do you address this this question of double standards. And how do you address the Qataris raise and also like the progress that's been made that that Lisa alluded to. But just kind of like put this in a context for us of how we're supposed to understand, you know, where do where where should we think the line ought to be drawn in terms of who is qualified to host international sport. And if I could just start by saying, you know, Lisa has been a real powerful and you know brave voice within a FIFA system, where it feels kind of all too lonely, in terms of kind of, you know, reflecting this type of critique. Andres, I just kind of wanted to reference an earlier point and build on you reference sports washing right at this is a that this is a tactic or been discussed as something that that is supposed to distract from the human rights abuses or build a positive reputation. And in Qatar's case, and the reason there's been so much focus is that the sports washing is the abuse, right. We knew FIFA new in 2010 and before that there was this massive infrastructure deficit that had to be built number one, and that there were no labor protections in place for the migrant laborers who are going to build it to do so. And so this this desire on Qatar's part to host the World Cup without any kind of preparations has in itself, fueled these kind of central abuses and I think that this focus is very hard to kind of distract from, because in other sports washing context, you know, often, you know, sometimes the abuses and like directly connected. And I think here, like the reason there's such a visceral reaction from fans, and others, etc. And particularly in this industry in which there's such a disincentive to speak out yet yet group individuals and groups like soccer rules, like other former footballers are doing so is because it's directly tainting them, right, even though they had no part in it. The stadiums that were built were constructed in which there were thousands of unexplained deaths of migrant workers, many of whom are likely died or were injured due to these outrageous and unfathomable conditions which forced the World Cup to be moved right and I grew up loving to watch the World Cup that was a summer event, right, at least in North America. That was something we watched in the summer, the reason it had to be moved was it was simply not safe for fans and and the football to be as fit as people on earth to actually host right so that that type of thinking and consideration was never given to migrant workers in the first place. So we have these thousands of unexplained deaths. We have these, you know, this very widespread wage abuse and wage theft, right, which what is that, but what does that mean sounds very abstract, but there are many, many people who came to Qatar to essentially have a better life for the family, they pay for their daughter's education. They often came they paid these illegal recruitment fees, they essentially paid to get a job in Qatar from origin countries like Nepal Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Kenya, Philippines, so they pay they're often under debt when they go and then their employer because they're part of this, this kafala system or sponsorship system that gives such disproportionate power to employers, maybe they just don't get paid for three months, four months, five months. And that just puts an incredible burden and amount of pressure, you know, on migrant workers that, you know, has obviously had all these huge ripple effects and so we can kind of see the reality now is that, while it's positive there have been reforms from a conservative of the human rights organization that is also common on China's hosting of past mega events that's common on Saudi Arabia's purchase or the public investment funds purchase of the Newcastle United of Russia. From us, there's a consistent like there's a consistent attempt to try to really critique abuses, and this is just a huge set of abuses. It's so large and complicated. It's actually kind of hard to unwind the spectrum right because I'm talking about migrant rights and what we can do with it. But there's this whole set that's like an afterthought that usually that should be front and center to about what about LGBT people, right and not just fans, right but LGBT residents that face these laws were if you have same sex relations you could face up to seven years in prison and Human Rights Watch has documented abuses and mistreatment that LGBT people in Qatar have faced. So all the say is, I think on that. I just ask quickly, it seems like the, the Qatari government has been at least has tried to be responsive to some of the criticism on the labor issues with some of these reforms and I understand there's a big debate as to whether, you know, these reforms are just on paper and practice. Have there, have they been responsive at all. And this is a question for both of you on on the LGBT issues at all. I think central I think we can frame all of the reforms as that there are some promising initiatives, it's not to say this is all just kind of like a public relations aspect. There are just on labor right on labor issues and the discrimination and on LGBT fundamentally I think there's too much so if I could just to kind of split up on labor promising reforms but I think we can really categorize it as too too little kind of too late. They don't address all the previous abuses that happened, you know, previous to the reforms when they were awarded the World Cup in 2010 on LGBT rights I think the central is, is that I think they're, they want to have it both ways. They want to say, look fans are welcome right they've repeatedly said at the highest levels including the Amir the ruler of Qatar, saying we welcome everyone, but there's always a conditionality, respect our culture. Right. And that kind of tension point there is, well, under custody law right culture everyone should respect, but you know, we should also be, you know, committed to human rights protections that, you know, apply to everyone, regardless of where they are. And the reality is is that LGBT people have faced abuses in Qatar, and that's the reality that that FIFA has kind of brought us to and so we're grappling with that. So I would say there's a message that can sometimes be positive from them, but we can't look away from the reality the reality is, there are abuses that have been documented very recently, and that's a risk. Okay. Lisa, is there something you want to add to that. Yeah, it's a lot to add to everything I would of course, you know, Michael knows knows what he's talking about so we'll just support. I think it's, it's hard to communicate in this case, you know, we have different positions, you know, I'm a president of a federation and then I want to communicate very accurate and not, you know, like amnesty can, you know, go very high and have a very high headlines, strong headlines and I support that they should, you know, it's their roles. But as members of FIFA, these are, you know, these are, this is my own organization, you know, it's colleagues. And it's very hard to communicate that these reforms are really good, you know, it's really good that they're happening to abandonment of kafala system, minimum wage law compulsory heat breaks during the day, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And some of these are implemented the minimum wage, I think is the most implemented one I think most workers will now say that they, they, if they get their payment like you're saying Michael as wage theft as well but if they get their pay it's on the minimum wage level so that is a good one but with the heat break I don't think it's it's that implemented. But that does not justify, you know, the years and years of treating people as animals, you know, and we have to be very stubborn to have this debate on a human rights level it's not about criticizing Arab culture, or racism, or not having Qatar to play football. And to me, and it's part of the cost of course to to raise your voice that you will be accused of this. And it makes me really sad if people in Qatar believes that this is the Western world's response to them going into football because they are welcome they are everyone should be welcome into the sport. And who are we to throw rocks you know in the glass cage, but these are in the international human rights, and to have people carry the bricks to our stadiums and die for it. It's, we have to know, even though those changes are very good. We now have to partly make sure that they are implemented thoroughly. We partly has to have to have compensation funds to have historical abuses being compensated for the lives lost, but also for our own legitimacy for this to save to save our sport and it's it's hard to go to become a bit virtuous you know and be because it is really important things at stake, I think, and it's urgent. So, so I think with the LGBTQ case it's also, it's also very difficult. I think this is the area where the Qatar and the whole Middle East that they don't know what to stand on you know, and I sympathize with it in some ways you know as a colleague of the Supreme or the football association trying to organize and I'm married to a woman myself and it's it's it's very hard to accept that we now in very few years have moved the momentum in such a place where I cannot now speak of it, because then I put people in Qatar at risk, you know, in my own life, you know, this is the sport that live. And so so so then we have to speak about it so we move the political momentum backwards again. And it's not acceptable to say that this is religion or you, I know it is, but this is also football and we decided some core values, which needs to be in place there, it's non negotiable. Of course, I know when you say non negotiable you will be applauded by your supporters. And in football week, we always always have to negotiate, you know, because the ball has to run. But it should be a very clear statement from the football organization that we do not do these awards until the risks has been taken down. And I think it's dangerous, I think to go to those conclusions that what does doesn't really work anyway, you know, we're here now and it will never be fixed no I think. Now I'm talking about us in the football leader positions and also you in the media that no you cannot. You have to do your part. You cannot that does not work, you know, you have to do your part, you know what leverage to you have and, and what is the most constructive way to use it and use it. And you also have to make sure to elect leaders that work ethically. This is a democracy and people are reelected all the time and discussions always end up with why does not that player say this or that. But where where are people when elections happen, or one year before the election happened because that's when the real elections are happening. We're up on the hour that was the event was scheduled we have a lot of questions from the audience I wonder if Michael Lisa if you have a couple of minutes to take some questions I, but if you need to go that that's that's fine. It's a taxi bringing me until they I'll ask you one and then and then I can I can shift to Michael. Michael, if you have time to. But Lisa, if you leave from, I believe New York City. Kind of it I mean I'm going to paraphrase this this question but he's talking about the, you know, where is this going to end are we going to see a World Cup in North Korea, you know, who's going to speak out here and, and I want to ask you whether the international community FIFA has, has kind of learned through this process and whether you're optimistic. Going forward I mean, in that quote that I read you said that human rights hadn't been in the starting 11 until many years later. And again this comes back to the theme that I think you put on the table that while we're about to this World Cup in Qatar in 2022, the vote the decision, the initial outrage if we want to call it that was in 2010 it's already it's been quite a while, and in that intervening period, while the World Cup wasn't derailed it's happening. There has been a lot of discussion. Do you feel like there will be more thought put into these decisions in the future or might we see a repetition. So Saudi Arabia is applying, you know bidding for the world in the future. No, I think that's why we have people in posts, you know, not now we have to try to try to influence democracy so that it does not happen in the same way but I think the most important legacy of not legacy in a positive way but but still the consequence. Because I don't think anything can justify what has happened but the most important consequence of the word is that FIFA really had a big, big reform where they changed the award criteria is it could be even sharper I think. But it's still you know from from going from 22 guys in a dark room metaphorically but but still like like the jury system you know you go into room you don't even have to you know reason your verdict and you have crazy verdicts then. And this happened and now now it's it's you have to have a due diligence within the country human rights to diligence. If you want to apply that due diligence should be objectively assessed again, it should go through FIFA Council, and then it should be voted in in the FIFA Congress, and I as a president everyone will see what I voted on. And if then it's awarded to a country with high risk on all you know LGBTQ migrant workers, then the democracy democracy is in real trouble you know, then, then we're there. It hasn't happened yet. And I don't think part of me is very pessimistic and I think it's really darker clouds in the horizon due to what you said Michael of, or who said it about the big big big money you know it's not even much money for someone. And then the capitalism will will win. But part of me thinks that, no, with this pressure with media, not just one part, but media supporters, leaders, players, if we want to change and still try to be commercial but but want to change and we now keep the pressure off. Then then then this might work. So so I think it's it's very important to keep the pressure off. People will say and they say to me all the time. This is double standard. What about this? What about that? And I understand we almost understand that, especially the people now taking the heat, maybe doing the best to change very conservative systems in Qatar. They should of course be applauded. We should all applaud them. It's difficult. It's great. But it's a bigger picture here and we try we have to try to communicate both because the pressure the external pressure has up till now been the only thing that results in change. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, they're sort of. Yeah, so really appreciate me. Thank you for having me and great to listen to you guys. Yeah, we really admire your, your voice in these on these issues as Michael mentioned so thank you so much for joining us. Bye bye. Michael, if I could, if I could turn to you quickly, we have john Piskioda, Piskioda and apologies if I'm mispronouncing your name. I have a question about the legal restrictions imposed in Qatar on the coverage of the cup and whether that's going to make it easier for the host country, the regime to control the narrative despite, you know, what we're seeing now on on social media. How do you think about that I mean that's that's another level of concerns we haven't even addressed is just like the freedom of the press and speech at the event itself and surrounding it. Yeah, absolutely. It's a good, it's a good question. I mean, maybe I can frame it in a, in trying to take on one of the custody authorities kind of responses right at its core. And I think what the authorities have said is, is look, this is double standards or even has a racist intent, you know into it, often European North America with many of their own problems and abuses, including a migrant labor abuses. I think to kind of tie it together is, and even, you know, foreign international, you know, human rights organizations. Let me say like this, I am, I'm speaking, only because, you know, we are representative of rights organization, but none of this is new. They themselves have said that. However, they've paid a very heavy price and cut it right and that's the kind of core freedom of speech issue. Putting aside journalists, the people who are most affected as kind of a victims of this system and it's why, as Lisa said we've been pushing for at least some type of more positive legacy in the form of a compensation fund to address all these past abuses, but they've spoken out of great cost, right, there is no kind of like, you got a question from them they are speaking out out of bravery and desperation, and people have been including individuals like there's a Kenyan migrant worker named Malcolm Badali. Malcolm Badali was enforceably disappeared, and then deported from the country for speaking about about kind of core migrant rights issues. So with journalists. Yes, as we understand that there are these kind of further restrictions, you know in terms of what can be like stick to the sports right don't don't don't talk about the politics. And there's been a past even recent history about journalists for instance, trying to cover labor camps, trying to cover areas where migrant migrant workers, you know, operate. I mean, I just really hope they don't stick to the sports I mean it's absolutely essential. There's no way to artificially divide this question of like other issues, or it is totally enraptured I mean I read Franklin's book, many years ago and wouldn't want to be quizzed on it but there's like the takeaway of globalization is like absolutely, you know fundamental to kind of how we see this they really do need to be covering these issues, you know and and usually for sports journalists that are visiting and hopefully, hopefully there is a higher bar to really kind of like seek this out, because I think there are a lot of stories about about migrant workers, even if, and I kind of want to put upon as a human rights organization. These are things that do bring risks for migrant workers themselves right it's why, you know, many, many people when you see their stories being told, they're often the families of migrant workers who have died abroad, because there isn't a second chance for migrant workers to go back, they've been uncompensated. So I want to say yes that that that risk and challenge exists for journalists, but I want to put the focus back on migrant workers themselves who the whole time that they've been in cuts they have faced that that huge disincentive and risk. Yeah, that's well said and on your point about, you know, and a number of of us have touched on this this issue of the sort of moral relativism and the kind of what about is on that often arises and we're getting to push back from the I should say that as a as a Mexican, and as a Mexico fan one of the things that that I've been deeply ashamed of in recent years. And particularly in the 2014 World Cup it's kind of when it really started was a sort of homophobic chant that is very popular among some Mexican fans. And the opposing teams goalkeeper does the kick and FIFA has actually criticized and brought pressure and there's actually been sanctions at this expression against the Mexican Federation and a lot of Mexican fans have this reflexive. How dare they criticize us when they're taking a World Cup to a country that so there's always this tendency and of course sports fandom can get very tribal of always being able to point to another outrage that's not being remedied or or that's being tolerated or and it's just this very dark game of, you know, pointing something else when, you know, two wheels don't make a right and the fact that you can do something about one problem should you need to address that even if they're you're not going to solve the problem in the world. But just to close here, I mean, kind of coming back to like the core question Frank and I were talking about. How should we feel about watching this or what can we do. You've mentioned a compensation fund. So, you know, human rights watch has brought attention to a lot of these issues this World Cup is still happening. Because of the attention there have been some reforms, but what what do you what's your best case scenario for what comes out of this and is there are there concrete actions that federations players going to cutter should be demanding asking for in light of this platform and the moment we're in like, how can we help ameliorate all of the issues that you know you brought it to the world's attention. Absolutely I mean I think a theme of this conversation is that there have been a very small number of kind of elite decision makers largely unaccountable making decisions for instance of where World Cups are hosted etc and the goal of civil society organizations human rights groups working with my it's try to make that more accountable right like FIFA has a human rights policy that they adopted believe in 2017 that tries to mitigate these what we call adverse impacts, you know kind of of the sport so like what can we do now and cut that I want to say it's not hopeless but I want to recognize if you're an individual fan, it's challenge right like you are a consumer right and so you have a very small amount of consumer power, what we've been encouraging is, let's work up this kind of hierarchy of kind of the FIFA football industry right in which fans operate in a collective right or fan groups etc call on your football association to publicly demand that there be a remedy fund that their team and associations speak out about LGBT rights issues to kind of push that forward and make yourself aware right I mean I think even the first of the baseline step is make ourselves aware of these issues, even I has been working on different issues like the kind of extent of rights abuses and cut it, you know that have existed for these past dozen years is quite like, you know it's it gives you pause right and that's why it's kind of a push so I think we can't we have some impact and influence on the institutions closest to us so our football associations, fan groups, you know, media etc. And then I think, you know for the future I think fans demanding look fans have power in a collective, as well as football associations and footballers as part of this industry. So I would recommend and push that, let's say for sake of argument, whoever is chosen as the next World Cup after 2026 that the human rights standards that are on paper in FIFA are actually respected. I mean, I am, I'm absolutely so concerned about if state like Saudi Arabia, you know, gets the gets the world top that's deeply concerning. So we should be speaking out now and making our voice heard. Right and, and, you know, I hope, I hope, you know, cut that in FIFA, kind of hear this kind of collective collective response because no one wants to be tarnished, it may I love soccer, but like, it makes me super uncomfortable to be able to like watch it with everything that I know. So I'm hoping that they commit to publicly to a compensation fund I think that would relieve some of my guilt. I don't know ahead of the World Cup so let's see. Right. Well we'll be we'll be following that issue and thank you so much for providing some of this context. And for sticking around this this event's been sort of a relay race of a conversation with the baton being handed off. Thank you to everybody who tuned in who's still with us and the new America events team and all of our great speakers, and we're in for an interesting experience of this extraordinary World Cup not occurring in the summer, and occurring under some very troubling circumstances and yet the whole world will be will be tuning in and I think, Michael you've given us some some thoughts in terms of how to do it. And as consumers try to have some collective action for some remedial action so it's been it's been great hearing from you and thanks to everybody. So, nos vemos a la próxima. Bye bye.