 Again, hello everybody, welcome to the Future Trends Forum. I'm delighted to see you're here today. We have a really great guest and we have a fantastic topic and I'm looking forward to our conversation very much. Ever since the forum began, more than seven years ago, we've been focused on teaching from all kinds of ways. The labor politics of teaching, how to teach with technology, teaching during COVID, what teaching means for climate change. We've been focused on that very closely and I'm glad to continue that theme tonight or today. We have with us Professor Corbyn Campbell, who is a professor and a dean at American University, so geographically pretty close to me. She is the author of a brand new book which is just wonderful to take a look at, Great College Teaching, which describes her research project in trying to understand how universities and colleges can best structure and support the best teaching in the post-secondary world. If you wanna grab a copy of the book, take a look at the bottom left of the screen. You'll see a little tan colored box that's great color teaching or great college teaching. Click that and now what I'd like to do is I'd like to welcome our guest. So let me press a couple of buttons and bring her right up on stage now. Hello, Professor Campbell. Hello, it's wonderful to be here with you. Always, I'm so glad you could join us. I'm so glad you could join us. And you're coming to us from downtown Washington, DC. That's right, that's right. We're in Washington, DC, American University and should name also on the stolen lands of the Nacotch Tank, Anacostin and Piscataway peoples. Always important to remember our history as a university, as a Department of White Institution and the places where we sit, learn and do our work. Indeed, indeed. Well, I've mentioned to you before we have an unusual way of introducing ourselves on this forum, which is that we ask people to describe what they're working on for the year to come. And I'm curious what writing projects, teaching projects, what huge administrative duties await you for the next year? Well, thank you for asking. And I really appreciate this focus on the future. I think we do a ton and we need to understand history, right? So I'm not negating our need to understand history, but thinking about where we're headed, especially when it comes to higher education and how we can better serve students is really meaningful. So this upcoming year, what I'm really excited about is I've been working with the Equity-Based Teaching Collective, which is four scholars that study equity-based teaching and also the policies and practices in different universities that can support that teaching. And we know that we are not going to be able to create broad-scale change in teaching improvement unless there are some broader systemic levers that get switched. And so the four of us are fortunate to have funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to develop a playbook for institutions, state systems, disciplinary associations and funders to be able to think about the best ways to collaborate to produce systemic improvement. And the draft, so we're engaging in that work and research right now. And the draft of that will be forthcoming in early spring next year, early spring of 2024. So I think what most excites me is being able to hopefully have some really good suggestions for institutions on the kinds of policies and practices that are needed to support and engender equity-based teaching at scale. Oh, excellent. What a great focus. And from what I've seen, you've already been working in that to a degree. So I'm glad to see it. Friends, the way we usually begin the forum if you're new to it is I ask our guest a couple of basic questions to get things rolling. But then the floor is yours. So as we go, if you've had the good fortune to read Professor Campbell's book, I'm sure you've got all kinds of questions and comments. But if you haven't yet, you may bring concepts and ideas that you'd like to share about great university teaching, but also as she speaks, as she describes her research and her work, please, please start surfacing your own questions and comments. And again, of course, the very bottom of the screen, that's that raised hand button and the question mark button. So I guess I had so many questions based on your research, Professor Campbell. One of them has to do with, as you were researching this, as you were taking a look at institutions, how they support faculty and staff, what were some of the major successful strategies that campus has implemented? I mean, how did they best support the best teaching? Now, that's a really great question because so often the research has focused on the barriers to doing good implementation of teaching on campuses. And one of the things that my research really found was that the practices really vary by institutional context. So this idea that we could say, we're going to implement this one policy or practice in very different kinds of institutions, it just simply won't work, right? So if we think about what teaching improvement would mean for a faculty member at a smaller liberal arts college who holds multiple hats, maybe has been in that space for a long time, teaches, has taught smaller seminar style courses. And also we have to think about identity, faculty identity. So is it a tenured faculty member? Is it a white male instructor? We also think about what it would be like to be in a research comprehensive university, right? And maybe an adjunct faculty member, maybe a Latina, they're really doing good work, maybe has a full-time job outside of this, but wanting to give back to her community in different ways. So I think teaching improvement really is so different in different contexts. And we really need to consider the ways in which prestige and academic capital and the way that faculty develop their careers looks different in different spaces. So just to give a couple examples, I think about the role, so the book really lays out three different levels of practice that we need to think about in institutions. So often we focus on individual faculty improvement. And so I think about what happens when faculty go to a center for teaching and learning and maybe they work individually with an instructional designer to help them think through some of the challenges they've been working on. That would be the individual level. I think about the collegial level of faculty. This is the level that often gets ignored, but it's so critical. And I think especially at private research universities, flagship universities, this collegial level, this normative and cultural level where faculty, you know, faculty are talking to other faculty about their teaching practices, which so often is not happening in those spaces. When I go to universities to talk about this, one of the questions I often ask is, are faculty talking about teaching in the hallways, right? Is this a hallway conversation that's happening regularly? So that faculty governance, that cultural, that departmental colleague to colleague interaction is so critical. And how do universities foster that meaningfully? And then the third level, and we need to think about this in different kinds of contexts and how this looks, but is to think about reward structures and hiring processes and basically the organizational policies and practices that need to scaffold those other levels to be able to create broader change that's not just one faculty member improving. Well, that's a fantastic strategic analysis of both. I mean, I love the way that you brought the different types of faculty in career points, their demographic and their institutional identity, and then you've offered different levels for ways that universities can support this. And I would just be so sad to be at an institution where there wasn't that kind of hallway conversation about teaching. You'd think that would be mandatory. I guess thinking about that in terms of the structure, which is just great, I guess the next question to ask is, what recommendations do you have for teaching and learning centers? There's a good number of them. I think to some extent, they grew further during the pandemic. What can they do to expand their reach and to improve the quality of teaching? And again, keeping in mind what you just said, that's gonna be a different thing at Community College versus Research One University versus Liberal Arts College. Absolutely. So I would say, one of the things I'll mention, and I realized that I don't think I gave an introduction to the empirical basis for the book. It might just be helpful for me to do that. So what I'll say is that I found that the centers for teaching and learning are so crucial, but in different ways and different kinds of universities. So this study that this book is based off of is to my knowledge, and I've said this in a lot of different spaces. So it's possible that it's not true, but so far this seems to hold at least face validity, which is that I believe that this study was the first multi-institutional, multi-disciplinary observational study of college teaching in the United States. So meaning this is the first time that a researcher has gone into observe college courses across many universities and many different classrooms in different kinds of disciplines. And we have wonderful disciplinary based research and we have incredible research that's ethnographic or looks at very particular programs and particular kinds of institutions. But this idea that, what is the map of college teaching? When we look at K-12 teaching, we know that there is just a robust observational system in place. And so I had the distinct pleasure and privilege with my research team to observe more than 700 courses across nine extremely diverse institutions. When I say diverse, I mean different kinds of institutions. So from some very highly ranked public and private institutions, institutions that are in the rankings game, but less highly ranked and maybe striving in the rankings, but also broad access institutions, specifically regional comprehensive universities that offer both associates and bachelor's degrees. But I also wanna mention, there's many institutions that are missing and I'm looking forward to studying in the next wave of the study, including community colleges, as well as HBCUs and tribal colleges. So just kind of wanted to map what I saw in this study and what I didn't see in this study. And one of the things that was fascinating is on the two, and so not only did I do observation of these courses with my research team, but we also surveyed faculty and surveyed students. And in the places where we surveyed faculty, in the places where they said, we are talking about teaching in the hallways, in the spaces where the centers for teaching and learning were not just somewhere off to the side, but were deeply integrated within academic affairs. And just to give one example, I can think of a university where the Center for Teaching and Learning runs the entire orientation process for all faculty. So what that does is it doesn't, the Center for Teaching and Learning is not, somewhere that you go if you care extra or somewhere you're sent if you care not enough, but it is then a regular part of faculty work. Oh, fascinating. So spatially located as well as institutionally located in Central Plough. Well, yeah, I think that is meaningful, but I think in terms of the practices, meaning I think about an organizational home for faculty, right? So if you're oriented, when I said there, I meant like it is the Center for Teaching and Learning that is giving the orientation, not just in their space, but actually, right. So there's a focus on teaching excellence from the beginning. Oh, that's fantastic. And we definitely need more of that. I was going to say, I need to encourage people to ask questions and I'm way behind because the questions have just been piling up. So let me just give one the start right now, our good friend Keele. And Keele Dumsch has this really good question. It'd be difficult to improve the quality of teaching if high rate does not fix its learning model, which is based on grades, credit hours, degrees and a huge over emphasis on the classroom format. That's an observation rather than a question, but I guess would you like to respond to that? Absolutely. I think this really goes to the fact that when we look at the history of college teaching and the way historically that higher education has understood the learning context, it has fit into a very small box, right? And I think the next question is why is that, right? Why is it that we have had decades? I mean, we've actually had a century of research on improving on what good college teaching looks like over time. And yet we do not have broad scale adoption of it. Part of it certainly is the constraints that were just raised in that question or that comment. And I think the issue is that if we do not incentivize institutions, so if institutions that are great at teaching and learning and that center student-centered teaching, center active learning, center equity-based instruction, center a sense of belonging in the classroom, so many of these practices that we know to be important, if those institutions are the ones that are gaining enrollments, that are gaining endowments, that are deeply rewarded and understood to be quality institutions, I think we would see institutions like racking their brains around, how do we break some of these patterns, right? But because institutions who are great at teaching are largely not rewarded in terms of these reward structures and same with faculty, right? So we know that for every hour that faculty spend on their research, and this has been true from the 1980s and it is true today, every hour that a faculty member spends on their research, it's associated with an increase, an associated increase in their salary, and every hour that they spend on their teaching, it is likewise associated with a decrease in salary. And so we have those opposite reward structures in terms of individual faculty, but also institutions, right? So we know actually that student-centered teaching in institutions like regional comprehensive universities often are not the ones that are most funded or not the ones that are seen as most prestigious. And liberal arts institutions that also have had that teaching-centered mission likewise have not had the same kinds of enrollment gains that we've seen in research universities that have rows in the rankings and often do not prioritize teaching in the same way. So we still have that research and teaching clash going on. This is, well, first of all, Keele, thank you for the really good question. And again, Professor Campbell, thank you for the really solid answer. Friends, if you're new to the forum, this is an example of a Q&A question. So just again, go to the bottom of the screen where there's our white strip, the question mark button, hit that and you can type in your Q and we'll proceed like we just did now. We have another question coming in from our long-time friend, Tony Sindelar. And Tony has this to ask, this goes back a couple of minutes, I think. Tony asks, faculty development activities seem to be targeted at tenure-track faculty roles to spike growing populations of agents. How could we provide meaningful support to instructors who are in vulnerable roles? That's a wonderful question. And I will say, I think that there is so much misinformation about teaching quality across faculty categories. And the research base is really mixed on this. In the observational study, which is called the College Educational Quality Study that was the basis of the book, we found that across faculty categories, so across tenure-track and non-tenure-track faculty, including adjuncts, there was not a statistically significant difference in the quality of teaching. Now that doesn't go to, right. So this is, now that varies by discipline. So that's not the case in STEM, for example. In STEM, we did find that tenure-track faculty were doing a better job in the STEM area than non-tenure-track faculty, at least in this one study. So just know this is a good sample. But I think this question goes to, obviously adjunct faculty have very different motivational needs, right? So, and also, given how low compensation there is for teaching adjunct faculty, we need to think of the ethical obligations, the ethical relationship to creating more obligations for that group. So I think part of this is, and I will say, this is now not with my researchers' hat, but with my associate dean's hat on, because in my work in the School of Education, I get to do this work in practice and try to improve teaching as a regular part of the faculty role in the School of Education at American University. And what I'll say is, by robustly ramping up the support for equity-based teaching in our school, we have simply made all of those opportunities open to adjunct faculty. We also have created new hiring practices for adjunct faculty so that we're getting faculty who are really interested in equity and all to teach courses. And so their genuine interest in equity has made it such that they have genuine interest in participating in these teaching development sessions. And just another example, we have an anti-racist pedagogy scholar who does one-on-one coaching with all our faculty, regardless of if they're at their full-time, not required. But as we know, doing this equity-based work is hard. And when we have conversations in the classroom and there's folks that are pushing against a decade of assumptions that they come into the classroom with, those kinds of tensions, it's really helpful to talk that through with someone. And so it's never required of our adjunct faculty or our full-time faculty, but we find that more and more adjunct faculty are using these kinds of resources because we're hiring faculty who have these interests. Ah, ah, ah, ah. And the faculty may be adjunct or they may be tenure-track or tenure-already. That's true, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We revamp both processes. Oh, that's huge. And I appreciate that with both of your hats, the administrative hat and the faculty member hat. Thank you for that excellent, inspiring answer. And Tony, as always, thank you for a really good question. We have a question that came in ahead of time from one person who unfortunately couldn't make it. This is from Don Shullis, at the Higher Education Inquirer. And he asks, what you think about teacher devaluation and Taylorism as part of the dehumanization of higher education? He goes on to describe how, as Tony was just referring to, we have large classrooms being taught by grad students or adjuncts, but also the possibility of importing teachers from India. As well, Don points to the increasing use of automation and pedagogical functions. Hey, well, there's how, you know, how does improving teaching at the university level coincide with or respond to that larger trend of teacher devaluation? I'm so appreciative of this question. And if you don't mind, I'm actually gonna share a slide here. Yeah, we showed how to do that. So we can pull up this group. Yeah, make sure you're doing it. I'll embiggen your window while you do that. Thank you. And while this is coming up, friends in the chat, I'm going to share a link Don sent from the Higher Education Inquirer that he wanted to use context for this. Okay, good. I just wanted to share because I think so much about the problematic devaluation of teaching that we see in universities at large, but especially in highly ranked private research universities and also flagship public universities. And I think that this, because those universities are associated with prestige in higher education, that means the devaluing of institutions that do support teaching, right? So the devaluing of teaching in these kinds of institutions. And I'm not blaming the institution because we have these broader forces, right? We have disciplinary norms and cultures where we have peer review of research and that can be documented on a CV. But when we list our teaching, we just list simply what we teach, right? There's no, you know, be fascinating to have disciplinary peer review of teaching, right? Where experts in chemistry teaching of chemistry, you know, review a syllabi that someone has created and give feedback and, you know, maybe there's an editorial board that curates, you know, great examples of chemistry syllabi. That then could go on a CV, right? But we don't have a ton of disciplines that are doing this work, although that's starting to change. Certainly measures of faculty productivity, measures of institutional productivity, rankings. I saw this in the chat as well. There's not a single measure of quality teaching that's in the rankings. The only thing that you could potentially argue is class size, which is a correlate, but actually they're removing that. In the most recent rankings, they took the one measure out that arguably be connected to that out. So, and this question was about the broader societal norms, right? So look at the devaluation of teaching in K-12. All of that plays into the way that teaching the interplay of how teaching is understood in higher education. So this is a little bit of gloom and doom news, but I think when we talk about the future, we might be able to, you know, draw some glimmers of optimism. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. And thanks in the chat to my lightning fast friends who managed to grab a screencap of this. Professor Campbell, is it okay if I share that image on Twitter? Oh, yes, absolutely. Very good, very good. And let me just go to an even fancier display. We have more questions coming in. And again, if you're new, you can tell that our guest is extremely friendly, takes every question deeply and seriously, and that we're eager to have all of you asking questions. So we have one that's come in from Kenneth Sagendorf and let me just flash this on the screen as well. Kenneth asks, Corbyn, great detail on the salary increase, decrease in faculty time spent. Have you looked at your data and taking into account financial stability or instability of the institution? So great question. And first I need to name that that research that I spoke about with the association between faculty salary and research hours and teaching hours was not my own. So I'm happy to share that and I'm so sorry. Of course, the name of the author just flew out. So I'm gonna have to take a look at that and get back to you. But I think the issue of the financial stability or instability of institutions is critical when we think about this. And this is why so many people will blame institutions for the problem with teaching improvement, but institutions are only a small piece of this puzzle because ultimately being a great teaching university does not garner the institution of additional resources and in fact, putting resources into teaching actually has the opposite effect. And there's other research that's not also not my own. This one is a Baker and Morphew did this work, but that demonstrates that institutions that are trying to move in the rankings and we know that we all hate the rankings, but at the same time it's a massive arbiter of power in higher education. Really is. So what we know is that institutions that are striving to move in the rankings and are successful at doing so have done so by moving resources out of instructional expenses and into marketing. So I just want to hold space for that, right? Because what that means is that institutions that are retaining extra resources in the instructional area may have the opposite effect. And this is not surprising because we know that one of the biggest metrics used by US News is that peer assessment metric, right? So we know that reputation is one of the most important factors that is taking place in those rankings. And in fact, investing in instruction may do the opposite for your institution. And so this is the paradigm that we need to solve, which is why we need to be looking at broader policies and practices and what could also reinforce and support institutions that are doing this work well. First, I just have to say, I admire how you came to that conclusion through your triple lens of researcher, dean, and instructor. And thank you very much for that great question, by the way. We have another question that comes in that I think reaches back to one of your previous observations as well as looks ahead to some of your coming work, which is from our really good friend, Sarah Sengar-Gorio. And Sarah asks, haven't got a chance to read the book yet, but did you see in your research a relationship between reflective teaching practices and professor demographics? So pleased you asked this. And I'm so thrilled. Well, I mean, I guess this is thrilled as a question, but because there's the issue the other way as well. So let me just name, I think there's a lot of questions about, what is the importance of hiring a diverse faculty? And there's good research that demonstrates that students do better when they're mentored by faculty that share their lived experiences and identities. But there was limited research in the classroom outside of surveys. So there's a lot of survey research about teaching, but in terms of observation. And what we found was that when we looked at one of the frameworks that we examined was culturally relevant teaching. And we did find that faculty who identified as faculty of color, including black faculty, Latin A faculty as well as indigenous and Asian and Asian American faculty were stronger at culturally relevant teaching than their white counterparts, at least in the study that we conducted. We also found that those faculty were likewise more confident with their ability to enact other kinds of student-centered practices such as active learning, such as creating a positive classroom climate. So there does seem to be something about the ways in which identity intersects. We'll also say that there's other research, not my own, that demonstrates that women and faculty of color are asked more often to do both teaching and service tasks. And so we know that identity influences faculty careers in meaningful ways and especially when there's intersections of identity. And I think so often about the women of color working in academia who are asked to deeply support communities. And typically that's a part of their joy but they are not rewarded for that. And in fact, again, may have lower salaries, may be located in lower prestige institutions. And all of this ties back to the devaluing of teaching that we see in higher education. Yes, and this may just continue as our faculty gradually become more and more diverse. Sarah, what a great question. Just a terrific question. And again, friends, if we have about 24 minutes left, so I'll make sure we get to everybody's question. So please feel free to respond to what Professor Campbell has been saying in response to these questions but also to bring up your own topics. And also if you have one in the chat and if I've missed it, if you'd like to bring it up, please make sure you enter in the Q&A box so I can grab a handle on it. This is a question from our dear friend, Tom Hames coming to us from Houston area, Texas where it is probably becoming humanly warm. So let me just flash this up. Do students really appreciate good teaching? Are they more interested in completion than learning? That is a wonderful question. And there's two pieces that I wanna add to this question. So the first is, I think one of the most fascinating findings in the study was when we compared our observers' responses to the students' responses and to the faculty responses because all of them were rating the exact same class period, right? So we had faculty rating themselves on their own practices, students rating what they had experienced in the classroom and then we had observers and our observers had completed 30 hours of training to be able to be an observer along with an iterator reliability test that we gave, including a pilot observation. So they had done a ton of learning about these frameworks and what we found was that faculty rated themselves most highly. Students also rated faculty practices fairly highly. So not as highly as the faculty, but still fairly highly but our observers saw a totally different picture. And one of the reasons I believe that we saw that the observers had so much lower ratings than the other two groups is that our observers were trained to know what is the very best that it can be? But faculty are often taught to teach by those who taught them, right? So, and they often go on to teach in the same discipline in the same type of university. And so they get a very small window on what's possible in college teaching. That's actually true for students also, right? So if they are a psychology major, they might have been at just this one kind of university, maybe two if they transferred, but they're unlikely to be able to see the full view of what's possible in college teaching. So I actually think that students overestimate, faculty overestimate by about a third their abilities and students overestimate pretty close to the faculty. I do wanna share one other thing that is not relating to what students want but relates to what the broader public thinks. And just give me a second here because this question of like, basically do students and parents and the broader public think completion is more important? Are they more interested in the salary? Are they more interested in whether a student has a job coming out? I think this is a really important question. So I and some colleagues of mine at Teachers College at Columbia University, which is where I was when I was doing this work, I had the opportunity to put some questions on a representative sample of the US public survey, representative by gender, by race, by socioeconomic status, also by whether or not they had attended college. And we asked this question, I'm gonna go ahead and share my screen now. Okay, drum roll, please. Here we go. All right, so we asked this question, what is the most important factor in what makes the best college or university? I was particularly interested in this because we know what the, what US news says is the best college or university, right? We can look at those metrics. But I was really curious, what would the public think? And so we asked all these different possibilities. Honestly, before I did this, I would have thought that probably job placement and salary might be at the top of this list. Yeah. But look at what the public had to say. It has professors who are excellent teachers and it has students who learn a great deal is number two. And this finding stayed true again, across race, across gender, across whether or not the public had a high degree and across income level. So this is pretty fascinating because as we know, the measures of prestige about the best university say nothing about college teaching. And yet there's this belief and this understanding that education matters from the public. Now I'm not sure exactly how students would respond to this. That's a good question. And I think we could go back and look at that too. Wow, what a great finding. And what a great answer to Tom. As always, Tom asks very deep questions that are very epiphany and cut right to the core. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm curious while people right now, I'm imagining a lot of people have steam coming other years they're thinking about different responses. And again, friends in the chat, please, if I missed a question or a point you want to make there, please just let me know in the Q&A box so I can request that. What about the high impact practices that the AACNU celebrates? I mean, those seem to be pretty reliable as a way of improving student satisfaction and student engagement. Are they also reliable in your research for best teaching practices? So I will say I certainly support the high impact practices and some of those are related to important classroom practices, right? Active and collaborative learning, for example is a part of those practices. But I do think those high impact practices are about a broader menu of the both curricular and co-curricular opportunities. And all of those need to come together to make a great student experience. However, I will say in the research when there are meta-analyses and also just broader synthesis of what influences student outcomes. And I think, for example, about Mayhew et al's how college affects students volume that pulls together so much research from the field of higher education. One of the single most important factors on so many student outcomes is actually college teaching. And I would say the high impact practices do have college teaching as a component but college teaching deserves its focus in its own right, right? In that we know that college teaching does not just influence subject matter acquisition. So a lot of times we think it's about our subject matter learning but it also influences moral development, leadership development, the ability to develop diversity competencies. And so when I think about not just the individual benefits that a student will get from the subject matter they might acquire that might apply to a career but also the ways in which it supports our democracy, those broader societal outcomes that we care about. I think so much of the magic of that is happening right in the classroom. So you're, I guess we probably should have explained we explored this a little earlier. Your definition of fine college teaching is this combination of subject matter acquisition and retention but also what some might call a liberal education background that goes beyond any visual departmental expertise. Yes, and actually let me go ahead and just because it's, let me go ahead and share so you all can see the exact practices that we examined through the observational protocol here. Okay, and I'll make sure that you're bigger so everyone can see it. Great. So we looked at the level of cognitive complexity and this is, we know it's important for students to remember what they're learning but also are they applying it, right? We know that that's so important when it comes to careers. Are they analyzing material, right? This goes to some of the critical thinking outcomes we know are so critical for our democracy. We looked at active learning, not just whether or not they were doing an activity but also were they reflecting on it? What was the depth of that active learning process? We didn't look at subject matter in terms of the number of topics covered but research really shows that the best teachers and this is true in K-12 and also in higher education, they have something called pedagogical content knowledge and what that means is they have a real deep understanding of the field and the ways in which the topics that they're teaching map onto the field. So this is like cognitive mapping of the course material. They will often know, what are the core ideas that are really important for students to know? And they will really deeply teach those in ways that uses multiple representations of the subject matter that doesn't just look at those in a surface way but looks at those really deeply. So we did look at that piece. We also though looked at how the professor was making connections between the subject matter and the students lived experiences. So we know from K-12 research that prior knowledge, not just what they know before they come to the class but how they come to understand the material, their assumptions, their lived experiences, their cultural understandings and identities that come to the table and great college teachers will be able to draw that bridge between a student's prior understandings and the new subject matter. And we also know that in teaching, it's not just supporting students cognitively in their learning but also emotionally. And I've taught statistics in the past and I will tell you, if I do not work on disarming the emotional energy and the negative fear coming into that space as in the first few weeks of class, I will lose them for the rest. That ability to support students emotionally in the classroom is so meaningful. And of course we know that having a positive classroom climate is important for all students but especially students of color. And when I think about a college teaching process that is doing all of these things, this is the kind of process that will sustain a learning for our democracy, not just a learning towards graduation. How does that connect with the kind of civic learning? How does that connect to a democracy or a democratic behavior and engagement? Well, just imagine, right? So if students in the classroom are understanding how the subject matter connects to their own communities, right? And the ways that they then take that and part of this item, for example, around making connections to students with experiences is that culturally relevant teaching. And we know that students need to both understand how democratic systems work but also be able to question and challenge and think through the ways to make change. And if we have students who are doing that in classrooms regularly, just imagine what they will be able to do as citizens in the world. Excellent, excellent, great connection. Thank you. We are coming up towards the end of the hour and I wanna make sure everyone gets a chance to share their thoughts. We have one question here coming up from Shelly W. Let me put this on the screen too and let me also make a point of smoothing the screen back up to where it was. Shelly asks, are there institutional example reward structures that we should use to advocate for our institution to improve the campus retention during a promotion process? What do they look like? That is a great question. And I will say, I will name a few now but I'm also looking forward to be able, you can of course buy the book but also the policy playbook that we are developing with this grant from the Gates Foundation which will be coming out next spring. I think we'll do a very good job of saying specifically in this kind of institution, here are some exemplar policies and practices but I'll just name a few. I think about Transylvania University who just recently announced a multimillion dollar investment in creating endowed teaching professorships. And I think about the ways that faculty are rewarded in their careers and the ways that that promotion processes do not ultimately lift up teaching as being as important or giving it as much academic capital as it truly deserves. And so there's just one. Now, institutions don't always have multimillion dollar investments that they can make in this kind of effort. And I think in that case, I know that there are several universities and American University on the campus where I am has done this where the... And it also depends on where you sit organizationally. So if you're a department chair, you have direct influence over the peer review process at that first level. And so I think having trainings for the faculty who are engaged in those review processes to know what excellent and equity based teaching is and what kinds of evidence could be seen there. I think at the institution level, having conversations around is it possible to revise tenure criteria to include specifically equity based teaching and what kinds of a great example is if you're at an institution that is just using course evaluations to evaluate teaching, we know that that's highly problematic because it is deeply biased by gender as well as by race. And also students don't know what great college teaching is, right? They haven't always experienced it. They might think that instructor centered teaching actually is great. They might not have had the other experience, right? So we really need to have a portfolio that shows and demonstrates what great college teaching is and allow faculty to be observed having peer review of observation processes. I think institutions working with disciplinary associations that are trying to do this well, the American Historical Association is one, for example, where I feel like if we can get metrics from disciplinary associations around what great teaching looks like in those disciplines that will also help with the peer review processes. So I think some of it is working on all sides, right? And there's not gonna be only one policy or practice that will make this change, but thinking innovatively and I think starting with a leader caring deeply about this topic and working to navigate your institutional space, relationships and politics, will all be an important part of this as well. Oh, that's a really, that's a whole, you just gave a handbook of an answer. Thank you. And again, Shelly, thank you for the great question. We have another, a recommendation camp in chat. And I just wanna just repeat this back because this is fascinating. Ken Sagendorf said, there must be other focused and not based on self. And so I quickly asked, who should be other focused? And the response is fascinating. In order to design a learning experience and choose examples of lead learning, a teacher's ability to see through the lens of the student is paramount. And I think that's brilliant, especially since the research enterprise puts us in many ways in the opposite point of view where we're developing our own expertise, our reputation, especially ability to get grants from the self. But also it's a very difficult philosophical translation to make to focus like that. And I just wanted to first of all celebrate, that's a great observation, Kenneth. And I just wanna, if you wanted to respond, Professor Campbell. I love that comment. And I think it's so true. So much of great teaching has to start with that self-interrogation work, right? Which is, know what I know and what I understand and where my experiences come from. And therefore what I don't know and what I won't necessarily resonate with and need to uncover those biases so that I can deeply understand and lift up experiences of students who might understand that subject matter differently or who might have a different experience of higher education than I had, right? That's just so key and could not be underscored more, so important. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And I think that also plugs into your sense of education, preparing for civic life and democracy and the sense of having to think through people who, with whom you were living and working. Absolutely. Thank you. And again, if anybody has any similar comments or thoughts they want to share from the chat, please push it over in the Q and A box. And as I say that, a Q and A, Q appears right now. So let me just bring this up. Hello, Jessica. I'm starting the process of teaching college, becoming an adjunct for the first time. What is at the heart of measuring or implementing equity-based teaching? Can you give some key examples? First of all, I just want to say good luck, Jessica. Bravo. Jessica, I'm so glad that you are entering this sphere. And I think the fact that you hopped on to this webinar or this conversation at the beginning of your journey is amazing because simply having the desire to engage and to learn about this at the beginning, at the start of navigating. So many faculty come into the classroom assuming that they're the expert, right? But the humility, and I think this was in the last question as well about, it's not just me. It's not just my way of understanding. The humility to be able to say, I'm not exactly sure what equity-based teaching looks like yet. And I think the best recommendation that I can make, and I need to know more about which institution you're at, but very often now, thank goodness we are in spaces where centers for teaching and learning are at most universities. And in many places, there will be inclusive pedagogy fellows that will be able to guide you in talking through this. It does start with the self-interrogation work. It starts with an understanding that you're not going to be the sage on the stage, right? It's going to be partly you have some expertise, but how does that expertise resonate with students? I would take a look at my syllabus. Start with the syllabus, and this is another question is, are you developing a syllabus? Are you being given a syllabus? So often standardized syllabi are not done in ways that are equity-based. And so I would look through. One of the things I did with my own syllabus was take the syllabus that I had created initially when I started out teaching, and I pulled all of the authors so that I could see their identities. Now I need to acknowledge that seeing identity is not always the same as people's own identities and how, but visually, right? Do I have diverse representation visually across gender and race? And maybe I can find out more by going to their websites and seeing what they study and the paradigms that they come from, but really important that the readings that are in my class are representing diverse peoples, diverse understandings, diverse ways of knowing. And then from there, thinking about, how am I going to create a climate where students feel comfortable sharing who they are and how they understand or don't understand the subject matter? The excellent college teachers, I think, really are able to lift up the dissonance that students experience. When is it okay for a student to say, wow, this is really different from what I understand? Or I don't even know where to start on this, right? Creating that emotional vulnerability in spaces, I think is really meaningful to students. So these are just a couple of examples, but I would definitely recommend, if you are new to higher education and thinking about teaching, connect with the Center for Teaching and Learning on your campus. Which we can map to that, which is terrific. Thank you. Professor Campbell, I wish I'd known you when I started teaching at the university level. And I think to our questioner, Jessica, thank you for coming forward, putting yourself on the spot and best of luck, I think you're gonna be awesome. We're almost out of time. And in order to really wrap up well, I wanted to point at the last chapter of your book. And you talk about social support for teaching and college campuses, trying to put pedagogy as a castle teaching in a larger context. Can you speak to that a bit? I mean, what are some of the connections you're seeing? Is it the pointing of students out to participate in the civic life? Or are you looking at some of the broader trends about public attitudes, like the one you mentioned about people most valuing teaching or even about the devaluing of teaching that some of our participants observed? Well, I really do believe that if higher education is able to change its tune to value teaching more deeply, the idea that education is needed and is important for our society will take hold so much more, right? And so I just wanna name, I think we're, and this is a future focused conversation, right? So let me just name why I have a little bit of a glimmer of hope where when I started this on this agenda 13 years ago, the kinds of conversations that I was having were, I had a researcher from a very highly ranked renowned Institute Ivy League institution say, why are you studying this? Highly ranked research university, she doesn't have to think about great college teaching, right? Well, that's honest. That's so clear. And as an aside, it was an education professor. Wow! Saying the quiet part out loud. Right, so, but we are not in that space. We are not in that space. We are in a space today where the rankings are being questioned like never before. They're feeling like they need to change their metrics to be more closely linked to social mobility. We have the Carnegie classification system which really solidified the bifurcation between teaching and prestige. That is being rethought. And so for those of you working at institutions, writing to ACE, who is the one doing these, this change to say teaching should be a part of this, right? We should be thinking about how do we know whether a university is a great teaching institution and that should be categorized, right? We are just in simply a different space where these conversations and the reward structures behind them are being raised and questioned in ways that I have never seen before. Coming at a time with COVID where faculty are more malleable about their teaching practices than they ever have been before. I mean, imagine if faculty felt the urgency that they did to get online to get into equity-based teaching, just you can imagine the incredible change that would take place there. So I think the confluence of all these forces means that this is the time to join the movement that is developing around college teaching. Fantastic, that's a brilliant place to end. Thank you, thank you so much, Professor Campbell. This book sounds like this should be read widely across higher education and we should be thinking at all the levels you spoke of, from research to individual structures to how we structure this in terms of individual institutions. I have one last question for you, which is how can we keep up with you and your work? What's the best way to find out what you're emitting next? Thank you so much. Well, I do have a website, so it's just Corbin Campbell.com. You can definitely see there and please do keep a lookout for that policy playbook that's coming out in early spring. And I'm also, I'm gonna type into the chat right now a 20% sales code. Just in case anybody would like that. Oh, sure. It's in August. So this is the sales code for that, for the book. Yeah, thank you very much. All right, good to see, we always appreciate that. And we really, really appreciate you, your work and your generous time. Thank you so much, Professor Campbell. Thank you, thank you so much for the invitation and for the amazing and fascinating questions that came up as a part of this discussion. It's been a joy to engage with you all. Thank you so much, my pleasure, my pleasure. But don't go away, friends. Let me just point you to the next few weeks and let me just second that wonderful compliment from our guests about all of you, because you are marvelous. Looking ahead, if you'd like to keep talking about this, about how do you structure better college and university teaching? Please take this to social media if you like. Use the hashtag FTTE on Twitter. You can find me there or a mastodon. You can find me there and of course on my blog as well. If you'd like to look into our previous sessions where we're talking about teaching in all kinds of different ways, just go to the archive at tinyurl.com slash fdfarchive. If you'd like to look ahead to see how these ideas are carried forward, just go to forum.futureofeducation.us and you can see our upcoming sessions, almost all of which touch on teaching at least. And above all, please have a good June. I hope that you, those of you who are working intensely or will be very productive, those of you who are working reflectively, get a chance to reflect and think very hard. Above all, I hope all of you are safe and sound. Thank you for thinking together with us and we'll see you next time online. Bye-bye.