 I know we should just give everyone permission for a split. I have to say that I think, you know, having this meeting so late when Pahri was trying to get their splits in. It was really bad news because she, she said, and many other people said, boy, they're sorry they voted for having this be a historical commission. Because you know, here they are, they waited six weeks for us to meet to give them permission to put in the mini split. She didn't make it in time for the last meeting. And it's so hot. And it's so hot. So we really have to be careful about things like that. I think. Well, it's on the word dressing it today. I, I, we're addressing it today. And I'm not sure that they, you know, about having excluding some items that are currently on. And I think a minute is one that shouldn't even, I personally don't think it should come before us. Yeah. Great. So I've started the meeting recording on zoom. So it's now 403. So I think we could just get started. I don't see Bruce, but he, um, he emailed the while ago. So maybe he'll join us in a minute. Okay. He, uh, he sent an email just at 402 Nate saying the link. He was having trouble with the link. Um, everyone else seemed to. Yeah, everyone else made it and parties here. I emailed 19 McClellan just a minute ago. I thought they were going to join us too, but I don't see anyone here yet. So we could just. Open the hearing and then take, um, you know, the link and have one. Oh, okay. So the 19 McClellan. So I'll officially call the meeting to order. Okay. So just saying. The agenda just showed up on my screen. Yes. So night. So the applicant at 19 McClellan is not here. Not yet. Okay. And is the. 204 Lincoln Avenue. Yes. Okay. So, um, And you know, we don't have. We haven't been, um, you know, ratifying minutes from previous meetings. Is that usually in the decision, we have a little, um, Summary of the discussion of the hearing. So. You know, the ZBA does it that way. And then if we have a public meeting, we could take minutes, but I guess. We don't have a hearing. We don't have a hearing. We don't have a discussion that we could have. So. Oh, okay. So we don't really have to have it for just it when we just have a hearing. I don't, you know, I think we, the way we write our certificates, it has the summary of the discussion. So. Okay. Okay. And then. Maybe we just do a roll call attendance. And then we can. Jennifer Taub. And we'll start to Peggy. Okay. Thank you. Schwartz is here. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And I'm sorry. And, but I'm Marie. Marianne. Marianne Adams is here. Uh, Jim. And. On my screen, Greta. Oh no, I'm sorry. Carin. I'm here, Karen. And Greta. It is here. Okay. Thank you. So we're all here. And hopefully Bruce will join us. Yeah. Let me just send my email. I sent in the link again. Okay, great. If it doesn't work, perhaps you can phone in. Yeah, yeah. All right, Parry, I'm promoting you to a panelist so you can see everyone. And um, oh, there you are. Hi Parry. Hi Parry. Parry, I've never welcomed you as a neighbor. Welcome. Thank you. It's been two years, so I feel, uh, I feel welcome. Thank you. Well, time goes fast. Yeah, so we really, um, appreciate that you're here today and what we're, this shouldn't take too long, but what we're gonna do is, you know, ask you to present, you know, what's your, um, your application and then we may have some questions and then we'll officially, what we do is we go into a closed hearing but you're still here and then we'll any discussion we might have and we'll take a vote. So I'll turn it over to you to present your application. Um, so first of all, I just want to say hello to some dear first faces and also people that I'm meeting, um, for the first time. It's nice to see you all and thank you so much for making time for us. So, um, I live in 24 Lincoln Avenue with my husband and my daughter and, uh, we moved into neighborhood two years ago. Um, the house is lovely but it's also very hot. Um, we had decided to, um, we lived in it the first year and then this year we decided to, um, essentially install mini split units, um, so that we can, we can better both the heat and the cold better. Um, we're going to have one unit in the ground floor because the ground floor is relatively okay. We just primarily need to get rid of the humidity, but our second floor, um, on the second floor we're going to install four very small units. We have five bedrooms and in four of them we're going to be able to, uh, hopefully install these units. Uh, one of the, one of the pieces of equipment will go in the front. So if you would kindly go back to the other slides that you have, I can locate them for you. If you can see them, can everyone see the map here? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, the arrow's in the wrong location or based on the photographs. That's no, that's more or less. Okay. Actually, no, okay. Um, yeah, you're good. This is good. Yeah. I just wanted to show you in the photo and points and requested, um, remote access to your screen. So if you just can go to my computer said, I needed to do some restart and do a preference thing. So if you just go to the other slides, I will show them. I don't really need to, um, to the ones that show. So I mean, I guess here's an image. Yeah. So this is, uh, this is, uh, the elevation of the house that is facing Elm Street. And, uh, the unit will most likely will go underneath, uh, this window and there's a big, um, bush and then also a hedge. So, um, we might need to take some of, um, some of the vegetation cut back a little bit, but essentially I think it will be either completely or very much, um, just, just don't present. So it will be completely invisible, uh, from the street, from the Elm Street. And if you go to the other, so this is, uh, the one that will be serving the bottom, uh, floor. And then, uh, the other one, I don't know if you're able to see my little hand here on the screen. Yeah. The bottom one, um, there's a, there's one at the back of the house, uh, which has basically no view to the outside. You're only looking at a corner of our yard that is pretty much sheltered because of the L shape. And so the other unit will be going here. And so I don't assume that there will be any visual disturbance or anything that would take off the character of the house, but, um, I would be very happy to answer any questions. Um, should they, should they present themselves? I put together the map. This is Nate, um, of the, you know, possible locations just based on your, so one is back here in the corner, roughly where the arrow is. Maybe it's more than the other one is somewhere in this location. Absolutely. Yeah. You're good. Great job. Thank you. Thank you. Um, does anyone on the commission have any questions? Not really. Oh, are you just lit up? I'm just checking. This is Bruce. Can you hear me? Yes. I, I don't think so. The, the, uh, the, the view is given from the white arrow, um, from the corner of Elman and, uh, Lincoln, Lincoln is, we don't actually have a photograph of that view, do we? Yes, we do. Um, um, if you go back, Nate, please do that photograph. Yeah. So there we go. Yes. Okay. So that's, uh, that's the planting that's screening the unit, and it looks like it's, uh, it's, uh, coniferous and so forth. So I, I would imagine, uh, that it's safe, uh, except unless all of that planting was taken away, you've got enough space behind those, uh, plants for a decent air circulation, do you? I mean, it's, it's going to work. We do. We have to probably cut back some of the plant, but as you can see, we have two rows of vegetation. So even if we cut back some of it, there will still be a major, uh, buffer zone between the view that you would see and then the unit in the back. I guess, uh, uh, I'm concerned to the extent that these things are a little bit odd, uh, and also that we notice that they're going into houses pretty regularly now, and it's a, a pattern that we've come to accept. But, uh, screening is something last time when we've had this conversation on a previous applicant, it's recognized that we have no control over landscaping and so forth. So in one, to some degree, we, we should, uh, be looking at this as though it was a completely conspicuous unit and then making our judgments accordingly. Is, is that not, uh, correct, Nate? Right. I think it's difficult because vegetation is exempt from review. Someone could remove the vegetation and then it's, you know, completely visible. Yeah. I'm not speaking, that's not I mean that I, uh, I mean, client, inclined towards not approving. It's just that from our, our, um, our point of view as a commission, we have to recognize, uh, the possibility that that might happen and how would we judge the application if indeed that were to happen. Right. And Pari, I'm, I'm guessing from the unit, there'd be some tubing that would either go, even vertical? They would be very minimal. Um, and next to, um, actually, so, so it would be very minimal. The tubing is very minimal and it would be treated in light and so it will go with the trends and everything. It would look very much like that downspout that we're looking at. And it will, we will try to ask them to do, to do it as close to the downspout as possible so that it really kind of blends in. Uh, but as you might have seen previously in other applications, the tubes are actually fairly minimal. Um, so, uh, I don't assume that this would be a major, a major disturbance to the facade. I think it would be about the same size as the downspout. I mean, that's the way they are because they're, they're, they've got supply and return, uh, uh, feed lines, which are then, uh, sheathed and insulation and the whole, uh, pair, the so-called line set is then wrapped in a white, uh, sheath of, uh, sheathing and it would look like the downspout. So I think the idea of putting it adjacent to the downspout is a very good idea. And I would suggest that, uh, that we do that even if we're possibly not making the condition because there may be some reason why that couldn't be done, but I think we should encourage you to do this there. Believe me, I'm an architect and I will also encourage you to do it for, for, for a personal reason. So if it can be done, we will definitely want it to fortify the line of the downspout. So I didn't know that, but that's good. Architect representative to the commission. Is there a way to raise one's hand on, uh, does the host see hands raised? Okay, thank you. Uh, so I would like to say that, uh, I have four such units and I know how non-visible they are and, uh, not at all obtrusive. And I think that, uh, Pari has a wonderful plan for disguising the one in the front and the one on the back is not in our jurisdiction. And so I just wanted to say being someone who has the benefit of such units and knowing how we're suffering this summer and knowing that this will be architecturally, I think, integral with the, with the house, uh, itself, I just want to speak strongly in favor of this. I second. Thank you. Um, okay. Well, if there are no further questions of the applicants, then we can close the public portion of the meeting and, um, you know, go into closed session, but Pari, of course, with your continued, your, it's like a figure of speech. We'll just discuss it among ourselves, but you will be, we might have some more questions. So is there a motion to close the public portion of the meeting? It's so moved. Second. Okay. All in favor. Yes, we don't have to do a voice vote. Do we, Nate? We're supposed to do that when we're zooming. Um, okay. I just have, you know, one, well, of course, you know, I think we're all unanimously going to approve this. I just have a question, um, which I thought that, you know, in, uh, picking up on Bruce's concern that let's say, you know, a subsequent owner were to take down all the shrubs in the front, could there ever be something in the certificate that would say if the shrubs, which are screening it come down, that we would request just, you know, maybe a little fencing to cover it? Is that something that we can do? Well, we, we could, uh, we could, we could condition our, uh, granting on a, uh, acceptable screening, I suppose. Either greenery or fencing. Yeah. I mean, I think the commission could do that. Have a, you know, condition that at the screen with, I mean, you could say, they've done it before where the commission said with vegetation. So it's, we could just say, uh, uh, screen, screen from view, screen from the view of the street, the unit shall be screened from the view of the street. Because I think the vegetation is beautiful. It's nice. Oh, I do too. Yeah. And if someone in the future, I can't imagine anyone taking down the vegetation, but that they would just have to screen it some other, um, yeah, because I've been, and as, uh, Bruce said, you know, or Marianne said, you know, there's, this is going to start to be the norm having the splits as our temperature gets hotter. Yeah. Oh, and they're good for cool heating as well. Yeah. It's not our concern anyway. You don't hear them from outside. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good condition to put, uh, in terms of the future, so that, I mean, we're looking at it long term. Right. Yes. Okay. Are there any other questions or comments? I'm not, I'm not clear on the, uh, on how, how you're seeing the, uh, down, down the road years. If someone wanted to make a change, what's the, what's the legality of what we're, um, I guess what I was thinking is to say, yeah, I don't maybe, that if the vegetation since, you know, if something can't be seen from the public way because of the vegetation, they still, if a change is made, it still has to come before the commission because the bylaws assume that the vegetation might not always be there. So what we're saying is if a decision, if they ever took the vegetation away, then you might have something that is unsightly from the public way that we'd have to be screened with some other material like fencing. That was okay. Thank you very much. I, uh, Jennifer, I could, I, I, I have a, a, a proposed wording that I think will satisfy. Great. But I think it's also worth noting that these conditions, it's not necessarily, at least in my understanding of these things, is it's not necessarily something we have to worry about enforcing. It is a provision that we insert such that if anybody has a concern, they, they can come back and the, and the decision that we've made gives recourse and we, nobody has to come back to the commission or anything because it's already established. So we're basically creating a permanent expectation of screening and that's what the, the condition that we could put in there would be. Yes. Okay. If everyone's in agreement, does someone want to make a motion? Well, I'm good for that. I, I actually, We'll see what went up. Yeah. I sent, I sent to, to, uh, to Nate this morning or this afternoon, something I don't have to go and search every time and also that he can use as the, so he'll know what I'm saying and all he has to do is to put in the thing. So basically the motion would be moved to grant the certificate of appropriateness for, um, the project at, what is it, 124 Lincoln, 204 Lincoln, based on a finding, findings that the proposed work meets the review criteria expressed in sections 8.1 and 8.2 of the Amherst local historic bylaw and that the proposal is compatible with the overall appearance of the neighborhood and will have no negative impact on the prospect Lincoln sunset local historical district, um, with the following condition that the, uh, uh, the, uh, mechanical, the exterior mechanical equipment shall be, uh, satisfactorily screened from view of, uh, from the street. Thank you. Is there a second to that motion? Second. Marianne. Thank you. Okay. So since it's, um, we're on the zoom call and not in person, we, we have to do a voice vote. So I'll start at the top of my screen, which is Greta approved. And you should say your name. I think Greta Wilcox approved. Okay. Uh, Bruce. Bruce called him approved. Marianne. Marianne Adams approved. Um, um, Karen. Karen Winter approved. Oh, I think I skipped. I shouldn't be approving. What? Sorry. Did you call my name? No, no, no, no, I'm sorry. I'm going to Peggy. I miss Peggy. Okay. I thought somebody called my name. Peggy Schwartz. Yes. I have Peggy Schwartz approved. Okay. And Jim. Jim, normally approved. And I'm Jennifer Taub and I approved. And can I just add one thing to party? Um, no, we, uh, we really feel terrible that you had to wait a few extra weeks to put in the split when it's been so hot. And we, um, actually in later on the meeting, the public portion of this meeting, we're going to be discussing just a few items have come up before us that we've realized probably don't, can be exempt and don't need to come before the commission. So, and the splits are one of them that we're going to be discussing. That wasn't the point of the historic district. No, I mean, I'm still in spirit very much in favor of the idea of the historic district, but I've definitely been much more convenient to have this approved, um, a few weeks ago because I'm a small child and we've been working from home, but I'm sorry. No, it's just been not ideal in many ways. And so this is just a small, small thing compared to the rest. But, um, Nate will tell you once we approve it, which we just did, you don't need to wait for paperwork. Isn't that true, Nate? Yeah, I mean, I can, I'll transmit this, um, either this evening or tomorrow. So you can, you know, your permit can be issued, you know, you can follow up tomorrow and get it moving along. Yes. And, um, we've asked them to be ready for Wednesday. So hopefully. Yeah. Right. That should not be a problem. Yeah. And thank you so much. It's really nice to see everyone. Thank you so much for making the time. Oh, sure. And, uh, stay cool. Thank you so much. You too. Bye-bye. So is our next applicant here? No, one is here from 19 McClellan. Huh. Yeah, I guess they were on the agenda actually. Or they were going to be last time. They didn't have an application completed. Right. They didn't. And I sent them right after another email and I've emailed them a few times. So it's not, um, it shouldn't be a surprise that, you know, that the hearing's happening. So Yeah. While we're waiting, Nate, uh, you sent an email just before this meeting, as you said, there was an attachment and I didn't see an attachment. Oh, you know, maybe I fought, maybe I replied all instead of forwarding. That's all the attachments. That's all the attachments. All of them. Yeah. Well, let me have a look and see. Go to the link. I had to go to the previous, to the previous email. You did mention. I did. This is kind of the ID number to join and this is what you do. But then you said, go to the previous mailing to get the link. And so if you went to the previous one, then you could just click on it, Bruce. Yes, but what, uh, what Nate said, and this was, uh, just, oh damn, I'm trying to manage this screen. Let's see. This was at 3.30pm today and Nate said, oh, please find attached information for today's hearing and meeting. And I didn't see an attachment. So if it's the attachment you sent a couple of days ago for this meeting, which has the, uh, the photographs, the stock photographs and so forth, I'm, I'm good with it. But if you intended that we have something else at 3.33pm, I'm just saying that I don't have it. No, it was just, it was just the same information I was sending previously, just a good impression. Yeah. Okay. We're good. Yeah. I don't, um, I don't know if I, maybe I'll actually call the applicant one more time or the, I think, you know, the commission has, you have the, so you have information in front of you. I think, you know, you can hold the hearing without the applicant, you know, and discuss the project and you could decide to continue it again, deny it, or, uh, it's probably about it. Okay. Or approve it. I would say let's go forward. Yeah, I would agree. Although I have questions, but. Sure. Let me, um, Ben, if I make you co-host, can you help if there, if you need to? I was going to call the, um, call Scott at Kendrick property management. Okay. I don't, I don't, you know, I, I don't know why. Yeah, that is bizarre. They haven't. Unless she's having trouble zooming. They could phone. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I would say that I left a few messages and emails for them and it hasn't been, it's been slow to get responses. So, I'm calling right now just to see if, uh. Is, um, is, uh, is this the applicant fan or the contractor or the management company? The management company is the, is the applicant? So the owner is Kendrick property management. They're saying Jamie, uh, okay, or Jamie from the builders, uh, was the, uh, you know, I've been, not Ed, I've been, that he meets by the owner, but I've been communicating with someone else. And so what they, you know, what, what, if everyone see the screen here. Yes. Yes. You know, what, what they've said, they're going to, you know, support the porch and then basically take off everything from the roof down and rebuild it. Yes. Um, you know, using, you know, you know, pressure treated wood and then treks decking and then, you know, treks railings and balusters and they've sent, you know, a sample stock photos of what it would look like. But it wouldn't necessarily precisely look like that. It would just be that idea. We could say that we would like more examples in what they plan to use. Yeah. I mean, I think based on the email on this, you know, they're saying that they would use treks, transcend composite railings with square balusters on deck. I actually think that this might be, that might be it. This is actually it. This is the treks transcend. And here's, yeah, you know, here's the pebble gray and then, right, you know, here are the, see that would go with it. And that was a little my concern at the top of those posts is different than what's there now. And we, I don't have the, I think it was 194 Lincoln came before us where they wanted to maybe change the, I don't know what you would call it, the ornamentation at the top of the columns and we called brackets, right, the brackets. And we, we pretty much said no, and they did find the same brackets. So I don't know if I would say they should just keep the brackets and reinstall them. If you slide back down to that post again, that stock post, I think there's a flat section above and they could do that. Yes, you see, they could reinstall these brackets as a matter of course. I think in the other house on Lincoln, the brackets were decayed, but these don't look like they are. No, I think they'll be in fine shape because they're so well protected. We asked that they be removed, carefully removed to preserve their integrity and reinstall as to match the existing. Right. So it does give the house a certain distinct care, you know. Bruce, would you find it problematic that these posts would be a composite material and the brackets are wood or is that not? No, I don't think so. I wonder whether it's a composite of the post. I mean, they can't be too much of a composite because they've got a structural requirement. Right. And they're turned. Where does it say they're a composite? Really? Slide to the application again and see. I think it might be a mistake on the part of the contractor. Where does it say composite products to be used, such as treks, white PVC trim. My guess is that the post is solid wood. Right. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. I would have thought so too, just that what does it say here? Doesn't particularly say. And number five, railings, it's not clear about the balusters. What's a square baluster, right? We're talking about the old, the original. Yeah. This is a question that we could confirm but I would, I would just take, I guess I'd have to use to say the word expect rather than assume. I would expect that those are solid wood posts because I don't see how you could turn them. You put them on the lathe and get a decent result unless they were wood. These would clearly be questions that we need to raise with them at a subsequent meeting. Yeah. So I think my own view is that we'd not make a decision that we get all of our questions lined up and that they'd be good enough to remind them they missed this meeting, that we have questions for them and that we need answers before we can make We definitely can't make. A question had also been raised about because that's, yes, I totally could concur, Marianne, that we have to continue and it would be helpful to have them here to answer questions. Is the house aluminum siding? That looks like vinyl to me. I would guess that it's vinyl. Let me see. I took a photo of some photographs of this. So I mean, this is vinyl solid here under here. This is vinyl. Hmm. Yes. I think that corner is a vinyl cornerboard section. I've seen that on my daughter's house because I was trying to match it the other day. So yes, I think you're right, Nate. It's vinyl. Are they going to redo the roof over the deck? Apparently not. Yeah. It doesn't appear to. So I'd asked about the gutters and the roof and Nate said nothing, but in this picture, it looks like the drip edge is rusted. It really does. Yes, it really it needs, it looks like it needs work and that part, if you move your hand down a little bit, that piece along there, the bracket above the brackets, that's really an ugly rotten looking stretch of wood. Good point. Well, yeah, the fascia probably, that's a good question we should ask because you would expect that fascia would be, you know, one of the first things to go. So it could be that it was replaced some time ago, you know, maybe 10 years ago because it was indeed the first to go. And it's been so another question, I think. Yeah, I mean, this to me looks like this looks like they just ran vinyl soffit vertically, you know, under and then they just ran it down too. And maybe they covered up the original beam or they put a pressure treated in like Bruce suggested, I don't know. I think we need more information to make a decision. Yeah, I'm not thrilled about the drainage pipes coming out, but maybe that's not our concern. Where these yeah, yeah, it's yeah. They're not a bad idea from the house's point of view. And it's a, it is a, but it is, it is a, it is a well sloped site. So if you had a splash block at the bottom of those, it would do as well, I think. Can we comment on those, Nate? You know, as part of a renovation, maybe we could, you know, it's a, you know, I'd say something like that is, I don't know if you call it landscaping or not, but I think if they're taking it all off and they're putting it back again, then you know, the building commissioner is set at times that that becomes kind of purview of the commission. If it's brand new, brand new stuff. Hi, hello, hello. Yeah, Brighton's our meeting. I'll tell my kids to come on in then. Yeah, tell your kids to come on in right now. Can I get my dog? There'll be a virtual play date. Well, what I was going to say is as an aside, there are definitely times in the spring when I walk by that house and that roof of the porch just has students on it. There's no railing. Yeah, mom and me wants to say, are you crazy? But yeah, they hang out there. It's probably nice and warm. I don't know how safe it would be, but I can't say that when I was AD, and I wouldn't have been on a roof like that. They're usually sunning. Yeah, thanks. I think we could continue the hearing. If that's what the commission would like to do is we can have a date and time certain. It looks like there may be one, one or two applications. There's a page or Cosby, someone is maybe doing a wheelchair ramp and some accessible improvements to the house. And then there may be another, I don't know if it's a mini split or solar on another house. But I'm just saying that because if we continue it and we give ourselves a few weeks, then we could have it also be another hearing for the applications as opposed to continuing. We could continue this till next week if we wanted just to get this over with and then meet as needed because these other applications haven't come in yet. So my preference would be to stay with our meeting schedule. Yes, I'm not here next week, by the way. I see no indulgences for people who don't show up for meetings. No, I agree. I agree. Indulgences, that's a lovely word, isn't it? Very religiously tinged. We're looking at the second Monday, Monday in September. Or August? August. Oh, I'm moving. Please don't throw away August. Yeah, right. But that's just in a couple of weeks. Would we say August, Monday, August 17th? Is that work for commissioners? I am leaving on August 15th to see my mom. So in Seattle. So maybe you'll have enough people. I can come. You could zoom from Seattle. That'd be pretty amazing. It doesn't have Wi-Fi. I can't just put it on my iPhone, right? Seattle doesn't have Wi-Fi, isn't it? No, my mother doesn't. But I couldn't find the library does, so I could go there. Is it open? Pardon? No, it's not. It's that strong, isn't it? Outside. You could put on your cell phone. Yeah, I can zoom on my cell phone. Oh, okay. Then I'm all set. Then I can definitely do it. She might wander in the back and wave, but that'd be fun. Yeah. Yeah, I remember when my mother got Wi-Fi. That was a big day. Pardon? When my mother got Wi-Fi, that was a big day, and it was much after Wi-Fi was in the world. Yeah, no, my mom doesn't have it. Yeah, no, I understand. Yeah. No, we're thinking the 17th is good for the rest of the commission. Is that good for everyone? Yeah. What time? Four o'clock. Yeah. Okay. We're gonna have to have a motion to continue to then. Yeah. Somebody makes the motion. Oh, that's what Bruce does. Well, no, he could just say I move it right. Well, we'll let you go. Marianne, you take it. I move that we continue to August 17th at four o'clock. And I think Peggy says. Yes. Yeah. All in favor. We don't have to do a voice vote, do we? I would just to be safe if someone. Okay. Okay. Peggy. Uh, I, yes, fine. Marianne. I agree. We're voting, right? Yeah. Yeah. Bruce. We just call them approve. Lauren. Lauren, winter approve. Jim. And normally approve. Rita. I approve. And I'm Jennifer Tau by approve. Okay. Great. Great. And I will come if I can do it on my phone. That'll be great. Yeah. Great. And you know what, um, Rita, if we have a quorum, we'll let you know. Okay. But if these, if, anyway, if I can do it on my phone, I'm all set. If I have to find why socfi, I can do that too. Okay. Hopefully you won't, won't have to. Um, so for the, we have a public meeting portion today. So there's some items we wanted to, um, address. And let's see. Um, so I'm really going to turn this part of the meeting over to Nate. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Hold on. I'm just going to close the door before the kids come in the, um, maybe your grandson is kids could zoom together. Oh yeah. Yeah. Seems very comfortable just coming over to this. He's self confident. Self confident. Yeah. I think, you know, we don't, we don't have to discuss everything that we can, or we can, we could discuss things and we don't have to make a decision today, for instance, but one is a legal ad fee. So right now there is no fee to apply for the local sort of district. There's no application fee or legal ad fee. And so the town, uh, you know, pays for it. And now that we have more properties. So originally when it was the Dickinson district, you know, for 40 properties, it was okay. But with the Lincoln sunset, now there's, you know, over 250 or so properties. And the town probably spent 10 or 12,000 a year, um, legal ads for local historic districts. So, you know, the planning board and other boards often charge the applicant a separate legal ad fee. So I'm not proposing an application fee, but a legal ad fee. What would that run? You know, I think, I think 75 is fair. It probably wouldn't cover the cost of the legal ad. But, you know, so I think to start, we could say 75 and we could always re-examine, you know, in a six months or a year. But, you know, I just propose that that's high. And I don't, I would propose something like 50 as max, because I don't want to make it hard for people like people in McClellan, people out here on Beston. I mean, they're more prosperous parts of the neighborhood and they're less prosperous neighborhood. And I hate to make it more difficult as we just heard with previous applicants, contradictory feelings about support for the district, but the burdens of that support. 50 seems more fair to me. We can always raise it, but nobody's ever going to lower anything. Yeah, I agree. I actually have the $50 amount in my mind. I'm thinking it over before we met today. So I agree with Maureen. Hi. I'm good with 50. I'm, I could be good with 75, but I'm certainly good with 50. Yeah, I think to, I have to check the rules and regs. Let me just share those. I think maybe to vote a fee, it may have to be at a public, may have to advertise it or discuss it. But this was just, you know, this was just the first, first part of the discussion. So this would be inserted into our rules and regulations, would it? Or would it simply be something that's done? No, it'd have to be inserted. I'd have it into the rules and regulations. Okay. I just want to see if. Hearing procedures. Yeah. That's, that's, that's a procedure within once the meeting is going. I mean, could any, Nate, would there be the option for a hardship exemption? There still is. There's, there always would be a hardship exemption. I mean, I do think that, you know, too high of an application fee could be a barrier, but, you know, most of the work that people undertake and usually costs more than that. I think so, you know what, at least my thought would be, at least if there's some fee, there's some value to it. So for instance, we saw 84 sunset, like four times, because it was free and things just kept changing, you know, and 99. Fearing Street too. 100 Fearing Street. Yeah. 100. Yeah. A number of them, I think, just because, you know, they think it's free, granted there's time involved, but, you know, every time there's a new application, even if it's a minor thing for a change in a project, we have to advertise it, mail out of butters lists, and so there's, you know, a lot of costs to town. Yeah. You proposed also. I'm sorry, I think Peggy, were you speaking? Yes, I was. Go ahead, Peggy, and then we'll go to Karin. I hadn't raised my hand. I'm sorry. Okay. You were just a little muffled. Oh, I hope you can hear me. I just get a little bit concerned that Amherst has the reputation of being so hard to accomplish things when it comes to real estate and building, and I don't want people to be discouraged from wanting to live in Amherst, who are coming into the community for whatever reason, so I think we need to be sensitive to that, and I'm not sure whether that would mean a different fee or no fee, but certainly 75 sounds high to me, so I just put that out there. I'm just an awareness of the challenges that the roadblocks to people coming into town and wanting to make their homes here, so. I mean, do you think 30... I'm not making a recommendation of either way. Yeah. Okay, Karin. Thank you, Peggy. I see the point that if there is a fee, it's going to be taken more seriously. They're not going to just apply and then not show up for the meeting or do it three or four times, so I think that $50 sounds really like a pretty good price that's manageable when you're dealing with something like this, and you can have it waived if there's a hardship fee, and I think that I read somewhere we could talk about exempting projects that we all want to encourage like solar panels, fee for that. Solar panels and maybe even efficient air conditioning, the mini splits too, that I think you wrote that we could think about exempting certain things that seem like such a standard thing to do, and the fact that you have to go and get permission for those things can be really irking a lot of people that feel like they're moving in the right direction. So in my view, charging a fee just to make it a serious thing to apply, having a hardship waiver, having it be $50, which is probably pretty reasonable, and then having some things exempted, that's the way that I would... that's what I vote for or hope. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds good. I agree. I don't see... the rules and regs are silent on the fee, and I was just going to check the bylaw. I'm not sure. Maybe if the commission wanted 50, you could vote today, and then I don't think there's any... He doesn't say we have to post it publicly? We could vote to... not even vote necessarily, we could by unanimous consent ask Nate to prepare a draft change to whichever the document that it would reside in in order to affect an application fee or at least, sorry, an expense charge or whatever. In other words, the mechanics of doing this could be brought back and then we wouldn't... Nate could... we could proceed at least with the next step, which is basically the wording and insertion of this, and then we could look at the thing as a specific item of change rather than... because now we're talking, we're discussing it in concept, and it seems that in concept, there's an approval, but we would have to do more than approve a concept. We would have to vote to approve a specific change to the rules and regulations. And so why don't we ask Nate to draw up that specific change, and then we can vote on that next time. Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah, I mean, I'm curious, you know, in the by-law it says the commission can adopt, you know, rules and regulations and then fees and other things, and it's not... I want to make sure right where we're putting this. So is it in the by-law? Is it in the rules and regs? And so that's something that we staff can look into. Thank you. And then, Nate, do you also have to check again whether this is something that needs to be posted publicly before we vote on it? Yeah, so if we're meeting on August 17th, you know, we have enough time to get a legal add-in if we need to, but we could, you know, post that and do it that way. I'd also appreciate, as you draft the language, that we'd be approving some brief statement of rationale, so people understand why we're doing this, the expense, otherwise given the expansion of the district to include X-many properties. And then, of course, there'd be the language about hardship and there would be the reference to our list of exemptions. Great. I have a question. Yes. So it's not clear to me that if you apply, you pay your $50 and then the commission says, okay, we approve it. If you do this and this and this, you have to come back next time. It doesn't have to pay again. I mean, is it clear that you pay only once or are you going to pay every time you have to reapply? Because, you know, if your car doesn't get through inspection, but you do what has to be done, you don't have to pay again. Well, I think that would be that if we ask them to come back, then it's still the same open application like with Amherst Media. It would only be if we approved or issued a certificate of appropriateness or denied one and they had to come back with a whole new application, but if we're continuing it to the next meeting, it's the same application and fee. Okay. But we have to repost. The commission has a commission to come back at a public meeting to review something. That's not a new application. That's just coming back at a public meeting. Okay. Yeah. But I do think that was a good suggestion about an explanation because particularly, I mean, to understand that the LHDC spends 10 to $12,000 a year on ads given, you know, our fiscal situation now with all that's going on, that's not insignificant. All right. No, that's good. That's a good idea, Bruce and everyone. I can, Ben and I can work on some language where it will be and we can review it at the next meeting or, you know, even at the meeting after that, I just wanted to make sure that it's something we're discussing. So not, you know, that's one piece. And what are we looking at? Let me go back to the agenda. Oh, we were looking at possible exclusions like the mini splits or that. I think I'm okay with the legal ad, Ben. You and I can work on that. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And for exclusions, again, this would have to, you know, amend the rules and regs or the bylaw depending on what the commission decides. I think, you know, just because of the number of applications for mini splits this summer, you know, and it's a seasonal thing. And we've had a few where, you know, there's been some solar panel disconnect boxes. So they have solar panels and then, you know, one or two people come in and they say, oh, we're upgrading the disconnect box. You know, they had something and they need to get a new one. You know, there's a small other little thing that's hard to, it's hard to capture every small little piece of equipment. But I think, you know, I just want the commission to discuss it. I mean, at the last hearing, there was a little bit of a discussion about, you know, mini splits could be put in the exterior unit could be put in a pretty inappropriate location. What if someone put it right next to the front steps of a house or, you know, what if they have four units, what if a big house has four units that are stacked on top of each other two and two is a pretty big piece of equipment that then could be located somewhere. And so I think it's, I think it's difficult to have. I wonder whether we could use language such as Bruce helped us insert into parries. And that is that the external units be shielded, you know, by vegetation or fencing or whatever. I'm trying to think about that, you know. Satisfactorily screen. Satisfactorily. Yeah, but then once we use a word like that, then it's going to, the building commissioner is going to say it has to be satisfactory to us and not to him. That's right. So that's good. And then the building inspector would make the determination. Well, no, he wouldn't. No, I think that's a really almost an unenforceable condition because what does it mean? So I think, I think the building commissioner would say, well, that's up to the commission to decide what's satisfactory. Yeah. My sense of this is that these units I really have to stay. I think they should and must stay in our purview because they're, it's a technology that's evolving. And as Nate says, sometimes they have what are called multi port units. But one of the evolutions is that single port units, which is to say one interior head with one exterior box. So you'll, there's going to be an incentive to have more exterior boxes because they're more efficient. And these typically stacked one on top of the other a little bit or and then depending on where they're located, if they're on the side of the house with snow, a nice drop off, particularly if it's from a second or, you know, a high story roof, there'll be an expectation sooner or later that they have some kind of constructed protection over them and awning off the house or a separate kind of roof and so forth built. So these things can become quite elaborate. And I think at some point we might decide that they have reached a state of of some kind of evolutionary equilibrium or something where they're pretty predictable and we can confidently say that we can let it to others. But at this point, I don't think we're there yet. And I think we should retain the task of reviewing applications for this kind of work. Yeah. I mean, this is a little definitely outside of our purview, but I'm wondering at least in Lincoln North Prospect, Lincoln Sunset, you know, we have a neighborhood brunch and there's an extensive brunch list is almost like maybe in March, you know, sending out an email saying, because people I don't think are aware that this that they have to come before the historical commission and they are the local historic district commission and they just want to install them is to give them some the heads up that if you're thinking of installing a split for the summer, leave yourself time to come before the LHDC. I don't know. That's a good idea, Jennifer, because I was going to say, you know, we try to in the spring of every year, send a notice out to the district owners. So, you know, CESAR updates its database on January 1st. So, you know, any transactions during the calendar year aren't necessarily picked up on the CESAR's records until January. So, you know, we had done it in March or April. And I think if we have that letter, we could list things that we the commission has noticed or what you know, what people are surprised by. So, I think, you know, I think mini splits would need it. Or, you know, we, you know, a fair amount of questions about like, oh, I'm just changing a little bit on my deck. Right. I'm thinking about doing this. Is that, is that, does that need to come before review? So, I think we could list in that letter a number of things that yes, qualify for review just so. Yes, it's because I wouldn't think a mini split, you know, would be a surprise to me. Another item I didn't see on the list, which I was concerned, is last meeting when the people on, oh, what was it? That's the only street. The name of the street, but they came for the chimney, the top of the chimney. And that seemed like something that I felt badly they had to do that. Yes, I certainly agree with that. I can't see there's any reason that we need to be involved. In chimney caps or flu caps. Now, I mean, I guess the question is, yeah, I mean, sometimes it can be quite decorative, you know, so you could have like a, you know, the old, sometimes older houses have like the clay, you know, chimney caps, or they wouldn't call them caps, but I kind of get that too. I mean, that's, but for instance, what if someone is taking down their chimney and they're putting in just like a stainless steel cap instead of, you know, we don't want to make clear. Well, I think a flu cap is what you would call it. And if they were taking down their chimney and installing a new chimney, then that's another matter. But one of the things that we noticed with the applicant, the very thorough applicants and conscientiously put together, was that there are a lot of different fairly perfunctory looking flu caps around already. So in a sense, that suggests, I think that we have already a fairly wide variety of stuff that's already there. And so whether it was stainless steel or black, whether it was simpler than design or more florid, they are high up, they are small. And it's already a varied constellation of these things. So it does seem pretty safe to me to abrogate our role here to the Building Commissioner. Sure. And we, right, I think if we were to say flu cap, and you know, maybe that becomes a defined term or everyone knows what that is, that I think that narrowly defines it as opposed to something else. Yes. I think flu cap is the term that we could stand by. Sure. And you could ask Rob Mara what he means, what he understands that to mean. And if his understanding is the same as ours, based on what we've had come before us, then that's for the confirmation of our safety of our position. All right. And that would have to go again, that might have to be a public hearing to change that, but at least there's commissions discussed it. The other one is this solar panel disconnect box. So even with a mini split, you get a metal box on the side of your house. That might be like 10 by 17. And that's where you have basically a large fuse where you can disconnect the power. And so this summer someone had to upgrade their disconnect box. And I said, well, that's, to me, that was, you know, they're replacing something. So it's exempt. But what if someone is putting a new one in for something, they upgraded some electrical mean is that, you know, it's kind of like a new electrical meter is a new electric meter. That's subject to review it can be. So I think if I think we could safely push that again, also into the building commissioners court. If we tied it to a new disconnect box or meter box, whatever paraphernalia for solar PV array, if it was located the media legislation to the existing meter. In other words, if it's, if it's where there's already one of these kind of mechanical eyesores and we're just compounding it a little bit, that seems fine. But if, if the box was being put on a different place on, you know, another side of the house, of course, it would have to be in public view or it's not our purview anyway. So I would, I would, I would write it that way. I would suggest we could create something that way. It would be pretty safe. It was, it was immediately adjacent to an existing electric meter. Yeah, so we could. Yeah, I mean, I mean, okay, I think. Yeah, Ben and I can work on that too. So I think it could go for some disconnect box or even like a new electric meter. So, you know, we've had some homes come in and it was a duplex. And then they are going from a one to two meter electric service and there's already an electric meter there. So is that, does that really need to come before review and because it's often what's called a production meter. I know I have one. And so basically it's a second meter and it's measuring, it's measuring the essentially the, the production of the system. I think they still have those, but maybe they're, they're, they're doing it differently. But nonetheless, that's the kind of thing. It's another meter, it's a disconnect box. It's a, it's some, it's, it's another small piece of electrical mechanical junk. Junk from an aesthetic point of view. What does the commission, how does the commission feel about that? You know, for those types of things? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I can work on some language with that too. The flu cap. And, you know, I think the mini splits are, I don't know, I've heard Bruce and Maureen, but I think, I do think mini splits are tough. My thought is if we don't want to exclude all, you know, for instance, could you say that a single exterior unit? I was going to say that. Yes. That's a good suggestion. Yes. You know, more than, more than two, I don't know, two or less is excluded, but more than two is to review if they're, if they're located in the same visible location. Yes. And I don't, I mean. And with the exclusion, I'd also add that, that of course they be shielded from view. So I don't, I don't, yeah. I also have to realize that multiple units are occasionally tied into a single compressor that's on the ground on a concrete pad. So when that, those, those can be a little noisy and they might be feeding out to two, three, or four mini splits that are as small as the width of a hole. Now, I think Bruce, you were alluding to that with multiple units. I was saying that there is a, there is a force, an incentive, a performance incentive. And maybe I'm, maybe this is old news because this technology is changing fairly quickly, still changing fairly quickly for it's been, we've had it in our lives for the past 15 years, I think. But which is not very long. I mean, it's, it's an absolutely phenomenal technology. And I think of how much time and effort in the first 30 years of my professional life was devoted to talking through with homeowners, the various options for heating and cooling systems and every project was different. And, and from the past, from 10 years ago to now, you don't have those conversations anymore because this technology is so powerful, so overwhelmingly logically compelling. But at the same time, as it, as it consolidates its position in the market, they're doing all sorts of things to continue to make these things work better. And it's changing a little bit. So you have a pattern for, for single, what I call single port units where you've got not multi ports. So you, you, you'll perhaps, if you were, if you, if we could confidently predict that no matter how many indoor heads there were, you know, cassettes on the walls or ducted systems or what have you, there would always be one system outside. It just would be a little bigger. But there is a pattern to have more individual units. And if you look at the side of the North Amherst farmhouse where I just put some in last year, you can see how substantial the aesthetic, the visual impact of these things can become. I'd be happy to see Nate try some language that would stipulate what we believe would be acceptable. Yeah, that's a good idea. So that we would then only look at ones that were outside that. Clearly outside the norm, clearly outside screening, visible, obtrusive that we'd have to think about. If you think, would you want to say one unit is excluded and two or more is subject review or two units, two or fewer is included? But can we specify that even if it's one that it shielded? Absolutely. Yeah. I think we'd have, we could put some conditions in it so that, you know, so if an applicant came and they said, okay, we're installing like, say, parry, for instance, we have two outdoor units, then I think there have to be. I would rather, I'm in the same situation she is. I have one that's visible from the public way and one that is not visible from the public way. So I would want to restrict this further by saying the number of units visible from the public way. Right. Right. Well, except that we don't have to say that because it's redundant. Well, it isn't redundant to people who aren't thinking the way we're thinking, so. Okay. But you know, for instance, if Parry came in and said that she was only doing the one in the back and it was clear that it wasn't visible, I would tell her that that's excluded and so. She wouldn't have had to come before us in the first place. Yeah. But if we excluded her one that was visible, however she had two, the second in the back, she also wouldn't need to come. Right. Yeah. I mean, when we think of what we've been asked to adjudicate here, it's almost always been one unit. And so I think we would cover most of the petty aggravations if we restricted it, if we said, if you have one, we could try it for one. And it was, and all of the other qualifications, as Marianne suggested. And then, you know, we can expand it if it works. Yeah. All right. And just to clarify, is that one condenser or one, like, unit inside? Well, it's one compressor condenser unit. Yes, yeah. We don't care what's inside. Yeah. The compressor condenser unit is the term we probably should use. But to put them on the back of a house, the ones that I'm aware are rather noisy on the outside. You're hearing the motor working. So that could disturb neighbors on the outside, not visually, but sound-wise. Is that a concern for anyone? Or am I just not up to date and now they're quiet? No, I think we don't have. No, you're right. I mean, so people don't have to do many splits. They could do like a typical compressor and have central layer, you know, which is a ducted system. But the commission usually doesn't take into account sound. So I mean, if it's in the back of a house and it's not subject, if it's not public, you know, seen from the public way, it's not subject to review anyway. So it's not, that would never have been reviewed. These things are pretty quiet. I mean, for those of you that have any understandings or appreciation of disables, they're around 40, 46 to 48 dB, which is, you can hear it, but on the street, typical, you know, during the day, you probably couldn't hear it if you were any more than six or eight feet away. So your neighbor, yeah, is further than that. Yeah, I mean, that's the, those are the ones that we so far, like the unit, for example, that we looked at today, the Mitsubishi unit. I think if you were to look into the data that you'd see, it's about, it's under 50 dB. So I don't think noise is typically a problem. Yeah. Okay, okay. So I have three things to, Ben and I can work on, you know, flu caps, you know, meters or mechanical electrical equipment, and then the compressor condenser unit. So I mean, that's, I'm feeling good for some of that. Unless there's anything else the commission thinks is, you know, for instance, we've seen a few dry events, you know, I think we've seen two or three. But again, I mean, no, that's, you know, unlike a flu cap, I mean, or maybe like a flu cap, they're, they're pretty standard. Or is it something that we'd still want to see? I mean, you know, we've reviewed three or four of those. I haven't seen any drier cap proposal, a dry event proposal that we've felt even moderately strongly about. So I, my sense is that we could, we could exempt those. Is there any other thought about those? You know, so we did one on 71. Does, do people agree with me on that? Yeah, I am. If you had a white house and they were the only steel unit, but they could be painted white, do we care? I care. The commission doesn't really regulate color though. Okay. All right. One's in some of the rentals on McClellan, but I don't know. I mean, it's, you know, the question is right, kind of like the mini-slot unit. What if, what if in a house they end up putting, you know, if it's a rental and they put four drier vents, you know, on a wall. Let's say a single drive in. Right. Karen, Karen, I don't think she's talking to us. Oh, she's pulling off her chair. So, okay, maybe exempt a single drier vent. Is that, we can try with language for that too? Yes. Yes. I mean, when they, you know, when 17, Sealy came in and they were taking what was really, they had a vent out of a window, which is illegal. And then they were putting it, a legal one in, you know, through the siding. And it's such a minor change and we haven't come before the commission. And so, you know, the contractor said, well, what, I don't, you know, how do we structure this? And we told them, they, you know, do the interior work and then you can't install the dryer vent until it's approved. But essentially, you know, then they go and they do the project. They run the ducting inside. And then, you know, what if the commission said no? I mean, it's just, it sets up a really spot for the applicant. Right, right. Yeah. Hard, that's a hardship. Yeah. All right, so except a single drier vent. Okay, I'll, um, And they, while they're on the subject of vents and so forth, how do people feel about exempting a single vent through the, a plumbing vent through the roof? Do we feel we need to look at a little black pipe coming up through a roof? Well, I don't think so. Neither do I. Yeah. So, so vent, vent, plumbing vent through roof would be the, uh, the term. I'm trying to think about the correct. I can't remember. I'm losing my nouns, but I remember when my, uh, Jeremiah, my neighbor, got one of those little stoves. Right. You came before us for that. And that seemed very minor. I would like to exempt that too. Do you remember what, what we called that? They're, um, they're a direct vent, uh, for a combustion device. Okay. Well, whatever you call it, I think it should be exempted. It was fine. It can, just so we know what we're talking about. I know you do because you've got one, but, uh, we've just talked about the dry vent, which is basically a four inch diameter pipe coming through. And it'll probably have a five inch by five inch, uh, thing on the wall. The, these, uh, combustion devices, uh, direct vented combustion devices will have, uh, basically a seven inch, uh, plus or minus spent. And it's, it's in a, a one foot square stainless steel, um, uh, mounting block, I guess stainless steel mounting block against the wall. So it's, it's a little bigger. I still think it's fine. Yeah, I'm still good with that. But just so we, we all know what they're talking about. Everyone can see my screen. I mean, here's what it could look like. There you go. Exactly. Thanks. Yes. Thanks. Yeah. So I mean, I get, you know, it depends. I've had a neighbor that put a, um, instead of doing this, they want to get it away from their house. So they put on vinyl siding. So they put like a four or seven inch, you know, docked out like a foot and then had a pretty big end cap on it. So it looks more like, um, Let's refer to it as our exemption pertaining to a standard mounting. Right. They're all more attractive than sticking in air conditioner in your window for heaven's sakes. Yes. Yeah. You're right about that. You're right. You're right. So we'd say this a standard, uh, direct vent. Yeah. Okay. Direct vent hood or something. All right. Yeah. I mean, I could see where, you know, someone is, could do this. They might do a home renovation, you know, and then we'd say that, oh, well, you know, sorry, you have to come in for this direct vent here. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Here's another image showing a direct vent in relation to a compressor. Yeah. You know, not, I'm not saying that you do it this, this way, but just, I think this is actually showing. How are people, we're sort of fine tuning. How many things people need to, you know, what things people need to get approval for from us? How do we notify the town? And how, how does all that happen? Well, I think what would happen here is the, you know, we'd, so right now there's six things we've discussed today and we, Ben and I, we work on the rules and regulations and bring them back in a form for the commission to review. And then if, if, and then, you know, we pass them on to the building commissioner and the permit, the inspectors and the permit administrator. So that way it's just, you know, when someone inquires where the town is doing work, we would, they would know to exempt it. So right now, you know, they, everything we've talked about, they send it to me or to Rob Mora to say, you know, does this need an application? And most of the time we'd say yes. So that's why we reviewed the dryer vent on Sealy street. But if these exemptions, the rules and regulations, we'd just say no. Yeah, that means we can, we can, we can stay in bed longer. My major concern, we've voiced this already, is the annoyance level. I want to minimize the annoyance level. Right. I guess even, you know, I don't think when we formed the district, we thought of people having to come for some of these more minor. Yeah, or if we did, we felt that we would do exactly what we're doing now, you know, in the formless of time. I mean, I think six things are good for now. And maybe it'll, you know, start a conversation about other things, but yeah. Okay. All right. And then for minimum maintenance bylaw, I mean, that's, you know, I think someone mentioned it, and I know the historical commission also talked about it. So I guess the question for me would be, when the commission discussed this previously, was it thought of as a townwide minimum maintenance bylaw, or would it be part of just, you know, applied within the local sort of district only? I mean, I think we, well, we didn't really, it was always on the agenda. We never really got into a discussion of it. But I think it's not going to happen anytime soon that it's the historical commission is going to take it on, and it's going to become townwide. So I guess my personal feeling was if we could start in the local historic district. I don't know how much of an issue it is. It's probably not much of one in the Dickinson district, but in North Prospect, Lincoln Sunset, it's really, you can pick out the houses that frankly are not owner occupied, and that there's no maintenance at all. And I know I've sometimes called, you know, Rob Moro's office, and I'm just shocked to hear that, that there's literally no minimum maintenance requirement. You know, I've seen buildings practically falling down. They look like hovels and, you know, landlords making money every month. So it's not, you know, a hardship situation. I guess what you see is when the owner lives in a home, no matter what their situation is, they seem, without exception, they maintain their home. And, but these, some of these absentee landlords, it's, and again, that the idea that there's no minimal maintenance that can be required is a concern. The only thing I want to say that is slightly adjusting what you said, I'm thinking about two properties that you know about on Lincoln. Yes. One is owned by a sister who now live in California, and occupied by someone with disabilities. And now that has been worked on. Right. I wasn't even thinking of that house actually, but I'm also thinking about the other house across the street from you, where the woman who lives there has mental difficulties. I believe that her son is now looking into the house, but we do have cases of people who are aging possibly, people who may not be able to afford the upkeep of their house or have anybody in the family who's paying attention to it. So I think when we talk about this, we'll have to think about that as well. I agree, but I actually wasn't even thinking of those two houses. I was thinking of the Eagle Crest property. Sure. Of course. Actually, the Eagle Crest property on Fearing, wherever he has a property there, it's a problem. Maureen brings up an excellent point. And Jennifer, so do you. You've been champion of this since the day you arrived. I'm fully in support of everything that's been said by you, Jennifer. I think this is something that we could start as a commission that was unique to our particular area of jurisdiction. And it might grow from there. So I think that's a very good idea. I think Maureen's concerned for folks that may or may not. We have to have a provision in whatever we create that deals with that. I don't exactly know how it would happen, but I guess we'll figure it out. It would be hard, I think. Yes, it would. And we'll figure it out. I think it occurred to me, I've been listening to both of you. And the way we could start this, I think, would be to basically photograph every building in the district, which we think, and you folks who live there, presumably, could walk around with a camera over time and basically walk the neighborhood and photograph every candidate. And maybe it could, then we look at them all and we have a talk about them. And we say, well, this one clearly, and some of them, we might, you know, Maureen, you'll know or someone will know that there are specific circumstances. And so that would seem to be the point of entry here. We could basically do a complete catalog of concern, and then we could build a case around that because I think this would probably require a degree of public support. And I think the way to get that public support would be to have a full documentation of the problem, so to speak. Yeah, I think, yeah, I discussed this, the commission, someone mentioned on historical commission meeting recently. And then I discussed it with staff. And there's some concern about applying this townwide because it becomes almost like the difficulty is an enforcement. And is it necessary to enforce certain things on rural roads where it's different than in town neighborhood? So sometimes a minimum maintenance by Allah has length of law. Is that appropriate for homes down on Southeast Street? Right. So I think applying it to the local historic districts to start is a good place to begin. And the bylaw does have some mention of minimum maintenance standard, but it doesn't define it. So I think that there could be more put into the bylaw. So to Bruce's point is that this would need a vote of town council to, you know, if we're doing anything to fund into the bylaw or any bylaw. It would either be part of the local historic district bylaw or part of the general bylaw. So I think in any event it would need, you know, some review outside the commission. I like the idea of having, you know, of photographing homes or having a catalog and then trying to discern what are the issues. So right now, you know, if there's a health and safety issue, inspectors can go out. So, you know, if trash is left out long enough and then there's rodents or something, or it looks like the porch is rotten, they can make them fix it. But, you know, if it's just, you know, they don't take the trash in every week and it piles up a little bit, but it's really not a health or safety concern, then that's just the way it is. And so this bylaw could address some of that or even peeling paint. It could address homes that... They want to do great if the paint have to peel off the floor. I mean, you know, but that's the question, right? How, like, what are those kind of thresholds? And I agree for a hardship provision. I'm not sure how that, you know, will be reviewed. But so the state does have a template for a minimum maintenance bylaw. Ah! Oh, I think I have. Wonderful. We can request it and have it be part of another discussion. Yes, yes. That would be great. Please. I'm very, yeah. I'm very uncomfortable with the thought of someone going around and photographing every house in the historic district for, I mean, it just starts to feel like overkill to me. I mean, people need to be assumed that they, unless it's the student rental situation that is being monitored. That's a different story, I think, than going around and... Yeah. And, you know, Peggy, I have to say, I can't really think of any house I would put on the list that's not a student rental. Because even the house... There's a house on Cosby, a few, a few, a bit down from you, where the paint is really peeling off, noticeably, if you want to... Yeah, I know that house, yeah. So, you know, I think that that's an interesting... She has a glorious garden, but all the paint is peeling off the house. And that's not true of the other houses on the block. I mean, I'm taking photographs from the public way is, to me, is no more invasive than Google Street View or what we did when we adopted the district was take pictures from the public way. So... It's just for our purposes, I think. We have to be... It'll help us make... We'll make a better job of creating something if we know what we're working with. We're certainly not looking at... Our standard isn't any house that's not pristine. We're looking at houses that are really glaringly... Eteriorating. Yes. And we could find by... We could do our job and we could conclude that we can't really do it, you know? I mean, it's not like... If we have a thorough documentation of the problem of what we think, and then we decide whether we agree what the problem is because we don't know that we agree what the problem is. Well, thinking about that house on Lincoln Avenue, Nate or Jennifer, do you know who did want to get the attention of the sisters to get the house repaired? No, I don't. But I know that it was painted by a neighbor. Yes, but the sisters had to be made aware. I think they were made aware by the town because... It was by a health or safety inspector. Ah, okay. Yeah. But I think... Because there were interior problems as well. Yes, okay. Yes. But I think, you know, right, there's a minimum maintenance by-law. There's also historical permission to talk about how can you prevent demolition by neglect? Okay, that, yes. Which is something separate. But I think I can request a minimum maintenance by-law template or we can, you know, Ben and I can look for some examples. And then, I mean, I think it's a fine line. I mean, I want to make sure we're not... It's not like a homeowners association where it becomes really restrictive in terms of gardening or landscaping. But, so yeah, I mean, that's why I think... I do think pictures, even if it was only, you know, even, you know, a half a dozen properties were, you know, taking pictures of just as examples or things to discuss. Because maybe what Bruce is saying, maybe there are things that are really critical to regulate and maybe they're not to me issues. I'll volunteer. Why am I not surprised? No, there was one picture I... Anyway, it was a house on fearing that was a student rental and apparently they had been given permission to start renting it. It had had a fire while students were living there. It was in such bad disrepair. And then they fixed it over the course of almost a year, but it still was horrible. And I emailed it to Rob Morrow and they did work on the house so it looked presentable. But I mean, yeah. But I was surprised then when we were having a conversation. He said, well, it was technically up to code, but there was like no paint on the front porch. And the railings were missing from the banisters and they did fix it because of enough complaints. But anyway, I'm used to taking pictures and sending them places. And again, they're always absentee landlords. I've really never come across a house that the owner lives in that doesn't somehow look loved. Could there be something in the town rental agreement or the... Because the town approves rentals. Yeah, I mean, that's something separate. I think this is getting into condition of... For a local historic district, it can be aesthetic. So the rental registration is really just people self-certifying that they're renting units not... They have to certify that it needs livable conditions or building standards. But to me, this minimum maintenance file goes a little bit beyond that. Okay. Yeah, so that means every time we renew it, we could say, is your house freshly painted? The answer is no. No, right. It is interesting. I would like to see... I guess the question is right, when we do a few photographs, maybe there are just a few kind of relevant points. Right, consistent issues that come up. Right. Yeah. And then we'll figure out how we can get dressed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I do... Right. Yeah, it's funny, because I know there's a few spaces, for instance, I mentioned the trash, where they just... There's always trash. And so, unless it becomes to a point where, like I said, it's a health and safety issue, there's really... The town doesn't respond to that, which is just an odd thing. So you could always leave, like, you can always have the red cups and things on the ground and furniture is strewn about, and that's really not... There's no way for the town to address that. Yeah. The beer pong table on McClellan. All right, so yeah, I can ask Chris Kelly from the state, he did a demolition workshop with the commission this month, and he mentioned a minimum maintenance by-law. Ask for a copy. I feel like that would be a real contribution to the LHD to have something like... And again, I don't think it applies to Dickinson. Well, I... Or to the Dickinson Historic District. I think once we see it, we could see, you know, the commission can always decide how you want to apply it to, you know, one district or both. But yeah. Yeah. You're very pristine in the Dickinson District. Aha. We're getting there. Yeah, I mean, we're there. Okay. I've got dinner to make. How much more have we got? If anyone has any other comments, I'm all set here. Yeah. Well, thank you very much, Nate. That was helpful. So we will be meeting again at four o'clock on August 17th, and is there a motion to adjourn the meeting? So moved. Second? Second. Now, we don't have to do a voice vote. We can just adjourn. So thank you all for coming. Okay. We're in far. Good. Good. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Yep.