 So 2007 you became not just an artist you became an escape artist you escaped from prison. I know James I absconded absconded escape sounds better Well, I do I had to climb a really big fence How does that how so what was going through your mind then did you not have any release day or did you think fuck this? This is my opportunity. I'm going to take it because you ended up in an airplane also. I believe yeah I Hope there's not much I hope but I won't have an ear face any consequences for this You ever done with Charlie Bronson? Yeah, I was with Charlie Bronson up in Franklin's prison I was next door to him in a segregation unit and I was next door to him in Sorry, I was with him in Winston Green. Who was it prison Charlie Bronson? I think he's an absolutely adorable person It was he was always a gentleman to me. He was always extremely kind Unfortunately doesn't have the best press in the world I don't think people realize actually what you went through and prison especially struggling with being openly trans and The beatings that you got the slations the rapes. There's even pool cures stuck in stuck in you as well How many people would abuse you? Gang rape how many people were involved? Well, this this Not so I was because I did I did learn to defend myself, but it still wouldn't stop on On at least a monthly basis sometimes on a weekly basis where people would spit you People would just openly mock you getting your getting your way stop stop me walking down their land in Chuck Cups of urine in my face cups of piss in my face They'd put They put shit in my bed or under my pillow They'd go in my cell and piss all over my bed Throw stuff on my photographs. I mean some of the best sex that I have ever had has been in prison I would get gay men straight men Male prison staff female prison staff come on to me all the time. We hear James fucking hell Because I represented something. I think I represented something to them that they had not seen before Boom we're on and today's guest. We've got a lovely Sarah Jane Baker. How are you? It's an absolute pleasure to be with you today, James. Likewise. I have long been an admirer and Thank you very much for this opportunity to talk to you and to talk to your And so dress your fantastic viewers. Yeah, it's amazing to have you. You've got a very interesting story The longest-serving transgender in the world over 30 years spent in prison You're out now 150 115 days. Sorry 15 days. How are you feeling? well, it's It's been an interesting journey and Which is how I like to describe My life and my experiences since release There's been lots of downs There have been lots of times where I did wish that I was back in prison I think prison is cruel and I think release after 30 years of prison is a different kind of cruelty if you're not getting Enough support from from the system. Yeah, you've not had the easiest of lives either. You were abused as a kid You've been gang raped in prison So to still be sitting here everything that you've went through which we'll touch on and to be working with a lot of amazing Organisations to help people Vulnerable people also and create a name you're also Fighting to be a politician to sit at the big table and make the right decisions for people bespoke earlier and what your threat achieves Is second to none and I'm proud of you for doing that and try to make those sacrifices We'll go right back to the start though Sarah and Kind of where you grew up and how your life began how it all planned out from then And I was born in bless you. I was born in South London and I Was raised by a father who was Extremely violent. He loved beating his wives. He loved beating his children He thought that was his right And now his older he has able to take no responsibility For the consequences of his actions Consequences being that What he did damaged Many people including myself However as an adult I have to take responsibility for my own actions now and stop using my father's abuse as an excuse well Eventually ended up in the care system the youth custody system and The prison system as you as you know James. Yeah, what ages did you start getting into trouble? I? Think I started getting into trouble when I was perhaps nine years of age I Just started running away from home. I was a bedwetter and Every time I wet the bed my stepmother would encourage my father to beat me Or to take or make me sleep in the toilet in our house So I would have to take my mattress from my bed into the toilet and sleep on the toilet floor If my dad if my father had guests come round they would have to stand over me to use the toilet Hey, I was humiliated. I was embarrassed and I was ashamed of I was ashamed of Even being alive, and that's not a good feeling to have when you're a child And in the end I started running away Living on the streets of London I mean, it's no secret to anybody who knows me that I was a sex worker then or a rent boy as we were called I Was naive I kind of believed that The lust that some of these men and some women had for me that I mistook it for for love At least someone wanted me and wasn't beating me wasn't punching me and Wasn't humiliating me. Yeah, was that just craving that kind of attention some sort of love that You are getting accepted for what you were doing and you weren't getting beaten you weren't getting Made to feel that shit people were obviously they were paying you for your work But you are getting attention where it felt you probably never had before Well James all I can say is All I wanted Is what you wanted and what your viewers want and that's to be loved That's that was all I wanted. It was there was nothing complicated about it I had no desire for riches and I had no desire for I don't know Lots of money. I just wanted people to love me for me to accept me as me and Not so have My father who's my primary carer treat me like I was a Punch bag. I mean I was a child and he was an adult and I wasn't the only victim of his cruelty My father as I did in later years has left a trail of destruction behind him that he will not acknowledge Yeah, we're difficult to repair as well. You were a family of 12 Yeah, there's lots of us. Yes, there was a load. Yeah. We use all in the same roof. No under the same roof. No, we wasn't and My father had five partners and children to each of us each of them Everyone get abused James It's not really my nature to be evasive, but these these these of my these are my direct family and Of course, I'll answer any question. You've got to ask about me, but I have to be sensitive to To their feelings and I mean some of my family Some of their children may not know about their past And it wouldn't be yeah, okay. It wouldn't it wouldn't be a dumb thing, you know I don't understand. Okay. So when you started doing the sex work, how old were you? Probably about 12 years of age. So a lot of pedophilia then with for men women For you it certainly is the world then back in the mid 1980s was a different world I still remember the days. Well, I still remember them days where Um, it wasn't long before that that you had the sign saying no blacks no dogs no gypsies You know, this is the This was a time of people Of white English people watching programs like uh till death to us part watching afghanet this acceptable face of racism um Not just racism these were the days uh james before the law changed to say that um Um that raping your wife was a crime at this time it wasn't I mean if if some man decided that he wanted to beat his wife after death the police wouldn't even get involved It was called a domestic. Um, I'm sure it's the same up in in your part of the uk but um even Cases of child sex abuse I mean, I knew lots of children who were being abused by their own parents um And it was common knowledge and nobody Nobody's kind of blinked an eyelid It was um, it was a different time This was also a time where if he was gay if he was transgender People would feel quite comfortable In beating you up, you know when people used to go up the west end to go queer bashing It wasn't something that they actually felt ashamed about it. They'd be quite proud of that I mean I It was a really it was It was a different time. This was the days of benny hill. This was the times of um to mean grow men on television um Blacking up Don't mean for for our entertainment Also the time of benny hill chasing chasing schoolgirls around the field You know, and it was this acceptable It was a really uncomfortable Time yeah, and a really uncomfortable period of time in in british in british history and The entertainment history too You you always say I've read a few of your interviews. You've also released two books You were a woman trapped in a man's body. When did you start getting those feelings? Did you always When did you start experimenting or did you always know that? Who you wanted to be or who you want to identify with or were you too scared because obviously the 80s was a tough time For anyone to say they were gay or whatever because obviously the beatings people getting murdered It wasn't accepted as a way things are now where It's it's a I believe it's open for everyone I believe if you want to be who you are as long as you're not hurting anyone then so be it absolutely James But then for you How was it? How what ages did you start feeling? You didn't know who you were or what you wanted to do or who you wanted to become well for as long as I remember I always felt that um That my body didn't match my mind or my mindset I always believed that I was that was a girl and eventually a woman trapped in a man's body Now When I was younger I I couldn't really I didn't really have anybody that I could talk to about these feelings that I had so I mean my family I think One judge described my family as being feral um I mean my father's is a racist I believe he hates women I believe he's homophobic Every I believe he's transphobic too. He's my father's not the kind of person I could talk to um my own mother um Run away from from the family house leaving me and two brothers behind because my dad used to beat her all the time And the only memories I had of her is if with black eyes So I never really had anyone That I could talk to about these really deep feelings and of course by the time I started to um Really acknowledge um The gender dysphoria are uncomfortable. I felt within my own skin I was a teenager and at that time The fact that AIDS existed It was all over the press James. Remember yourself as soon as you turned on the television It was like AIDS and everyone thought they were going to die just from sharing a cup To me or sitting on the toilet that someone else had sat on. This was a time of demonizing the other this was a time of demonizing people who Who didn't conform um It was a really it was a really strange time the kind of He was like the The man it was it was all over with him because obviously all over the press because obviously celebrity status that And it a lot. I was on that kid But a lot of people were scared a lot of people spoke about it This might sound silly but everything that you see about your dad all that anger and frustration Because I watched a documentary on netflix just a couple of days ago called the making of arin Hernandez This was a nfl player a big strong lad his dad used to beat him but There was a lot he he did a lot of murders but because They're saying because he's sexuality he was gay, but he tried to pretend this big strong enemies. Do you ever think that? Potentially your dad might have had the same feelings you did and his way of try to deflect it was by anger and frustration and try and beat everyone I will I will on this occasion james be charitable and Say that there may be something in what you're saying I'm not a religious person Very far from it. Many churches would not let me through their door But I believe that That it's a good thing to express some kind of remorse to help people have some kind of closure and Now if you have done bad things and if you if you have hurt people it it's it's a Courageous thing to go and try and repair some of the damage that you've done My father is not a person to do that Um, is he still alive? Yeah, my father is still alive When was the last time you seen him? I saw the last time I saw my father was when I escaped from prison in 2007 Of course, I'm free now legally for the first time Do you it's such a hard question for people it Especially the abuse that you got from your father But I believe to move on there's got to be some sort of forgiveness The due would you for the forgiving or do you accept what you've done? And maybe he's fighting with his own demons or maybe was he abused or anything when he was a kid? My father was not the kind of person to share that kind of information um I don't know what kind of childhood my father had But you know james I've met many damaged people as you know as you have to yeah Not everybody who is damaged goes on to damage others They say there's this circle abuse in some psychologists. I've met on my travels They say there's a circle abuse people who were abused there's more chance of those abuse in others And that is probably true But it's not true in all cases Whatever my father may or may not have gone through as a child. I'll I feel for him But it's no excuse to It's no excuse to like to do the same thing to to children my father was a grown man We were children We weren't we weren't adults Having a punch up in a local boozer We we were we were children james. Yeah, and pardon my language. It's not very ladylike, but fucking wrong. Yeah I mean for a grown adult to to to to Use implements use sticks and or or to punch children with the same force as if he was punching an adult That's wrong. Now that may say a lot about his childhood But to be blunt I couldn't give a fuck You don't I find I find I I hate violence I will do everything I can to avoid it which is strange because I was really good at it James Clearly because you spent over 30 years in the jail for violence We'll touch on that then so when was the first time you went to because you were in the young offenders as well Yeah, I first um I was 15 when I went to lachmere house Um, which was then a youth custody center Yeah, what was that for? Uh stealing bicycles Stealing BMX bikes. I was living on the streets. You're homeless. Yeah, I was yeah, I was homeless um but the thing is there were Um opportunities for me to get off the street the probation service I'd offered me opportunities, but I didn't trust any adults. I didn't trust anyone in authority And personally I'd rather sleep in a sleeping bag Um under the embankment or the waterloo ball ring or indeed god bless them Center point the center point homeless shelter, which um, I think may still be on shaftsbury avenue They looked they looked after me really well How was your how was it in the young offenders in because I believe the young offenders institute is worse than the adult one Because people try to make a name for themselves people Are seem a lot more angrier How are you getting treated then with your good at covering up how you are feeling or how you are thinking? well, it was really difficult because in um in a youth custody center, you know the the most common The most common way of spending your time Is talking bollocks about each other stab on each other in the back and a lot of people in the youth custody center Knew me from children's homes um You know, you could have you could have written v on my head for victim when I went in I was small um I had national wealth glasses with a bit of sellotape around um Um, I was a target for anyone who wanted to let their anger out on anybody Um anyone who wanted to rob my canteen from the prison shop You know, it was um, it was uh it was a youth custody was bad and obviously with my history of um self harm Um, it that really didn't help So you from the get go of your life when you're born you've been a victim and bullied and battered What age were you when you says fuck this? No more And then you just started sticking up for yourself And is this where the anger came from because you're just sick of taking the shit that you took There are parts of my life that I am still ashamed of um Of course I went to prison for seven years for kidnapping aggravated burglary unlawful imprisonment And gbh of intent of my stepmother's brother And I deserved everything they got The victim in no way deserved the pain that he was put through um Legally it wouldn't be right for me to to to dis to discuss that and also I wouldn't want to bring any kind of distress to the victim or his family but um Once I got that seven-year sentence Which I deserved I deserved to do 30 years just for the pain that I put this person through I realized in prison that it's um, it's a brutal It's a brutal place to be and you've got to be brutal to survive If people are not afraid of you you will be a victim and you will get fucked up Mentally and physically When you got your seven and a half that was for the kidnap of The mother-in-law's my stepmother's brother stepmother's brother. You got your seven and a half But you never you end up doing an attempt murder in prison and that's where he done your 30 years Why why was the attempt murder? Well when I went into prison on lots of numerous occasions People who knew that identified as transgender thought they could They thought they could slash me with razor blades They thought they could stab me and they thought they could rape me and And they could because they did so um These are things that didn't even come out in court because I was so ashamed and I was too embarrassed and I didn't want people to think that I was a weak person and So when I tried to take My revenge on one of the people who hurt me Um, and and thank god he he didn't die. He didn't go to the prison hospital but I'm sure mentally um, it was I had damaged him Um, I was charged with attempted murder because Because I tried to kill him for I'm not here to promote violence But for a man who is raping you and slashing you I believe that anyone not anyone, but I believe you've got a right to defend yourself and Because it's kill or be killed and these people were there to torment you torture you So for sticking up for yourself then fair play because I think people would understand that because I don't think people realize actually what you went through in prison especially struggling with being openly trans and The beatings that you got the slashings the raping's there's even pool cues stuck in stuck in you as well um, how many people would abuse you? gang rape how many people were involved? Well this this Not so I was because I did I did learn to defend myself But it still wouldn't stop on On at least a monthly basis sometimes on a weekly basis where people would spit at you um People would just openly mock you getting your um getting your way stop stop me walking down their landing um Chuck um cups of urine in my face Cups of piss in my face um, they'd put um, they'd They'd put shit in my bed or under my pillow They'd go in myself and piss all over my bed throw stuff on my photographs it was um I think Revealing that I was transgender in prison was maybe not the smartest thing I've ever done James fair play for doing that because I think the British the prison system say there's only a hundred over a hundred people who say they're transgender But you're saying it's close to two thousand people. They're just too scared to come forward But you can't really blame them because the stuff you went through It's fucking scary and for you to do that it takes a lot of courage things it's James. It's not just about um people not having the courage to uh to to To to live in their gender they'll identify with in prison um, it's not just about the fear of other prisoners It's the fear of their own families too um Coming out as transgender to your family can be a It can have a devastating impact on your family, especially if the person has children as as a wife um Perhaps as parents who are transphobic Anyone who's anyone who's brave enough and strong enough to come out as as trans um Sometimes they have to be willing to sacrifice all the people they love Because all the people they love may sacrifice them Yeah, but if people disown you for being different sexuality or trans or whatever it is Then so be it because That's not really family then or friends who turn their back and walk away Especially at a vulnerable time when you're being open and honest So for me for anybody that's maybe struggling to come out and you do then fuck them the ones who do turn their back because then they don't deserve I believe to be in your company no matter what it is you want to do in life but james we often make compromises in life and um We often love and care about people whose views we may not necessarily agree with you know um It may not be that the family or parents Are transphobic it may be the way that our society is structured And the amount of people in this country Who care more about what the neighbors think? What would the neighbors think about them? then Thinking about their own flesh and blood Did you have a relationship? And said in a wrong term relationships sexual relationships. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course james um I've sex I I mean maybe um, maybe a psychologist amongst your viewers will Maybe correct me mesloff's hierarchy of needs do you know sex ranks highly on there and and What do people think that human beings just because they go to jail they lose their sexual desire to me james this is my breakfast luncheon dinner To me breakfast lunch and dinner and getting your leg over whatever that stop just because you're behind bars james Did you have a serious relationship with someone? I've had many sexual relationships in in prison with some absolutely fantastic people james um, I'll say I love sex shagging james you're flirting with your dates always james I Would it would it make up? I mean some of the best sex that I have ever had has been in prison Maybe that's how you My life behind bars james, but you know I like sex probably as well as as as much as any as much as a sexually active then as much as the next person Did you have any that we are involved with men who were saying they were straight who would just come with you but Keep it a secret kind of thing james I can turn a straight man In a heartbeat she's been working on me for the last two weeks, but we'll see You're so gorgeous james So sexual active in prison standard Yeah, I've um, it was I recently wrote a piece And hopefully it's going to be published by a vice magazine Um about sex in male prisons um I wrote the piece once and then I went away and I thought you know what? the public deserved the truth and the truth is that whatever goes on outside of prison Also goes on inside now. I'm not talking about um Like a saturday night spit roasts after 25 stellars but you know Stuck for words there James that's the first time she's been stuck for words and I and I would get I would get gay men straight men uh male prison staff female prison staff come on to me all the time Here james fucking hell Because I represented some I think I represented something to them that they had not seen before so that'd have been a tunnel for them james look at me So I mean i'm no paris thies or india willoughby Because I can't afford 30 grand worth of face shaping but you know I'm authentic james. Yeah, you know and and I And on the whole I love people my childhood doesn't stop me caring about other people and um Do I mean I Yeah, isn't prison wasn't all bad. It was perhaps 99 percent fucking awful But that other 1 percent was fantastic How how did the the because you were uncounted again? I'm I'm stuck for words Take him my breath away. Well, you're sitting across from me. I'm gonna have to punish you all for this chance We'll keep the cameras rolling for that. Don't worry. I'll get the numbers up So how did you get treated by the cat and gay because you were in with the most fearsome and dangerous men in the world basically In the prison? How how did they treat you well? Because you're known. I don't think it was just the trans mafia The trans the trans mafia. No, it was they always called a trans gangster a trans gangster Why a prison governor who discovered that I was a Mobile phone and and drug dealer. Yeah, because you're not Yeah, you had because you believed if you control the drugs The phones then you control the wing So then you and whoever controls the wing will be whoever controls that um Especially mobile phones because currently the phone I have at the moment, which is perhaps was it? 100 pounds in prison. This is this is a thousand pound you know and If you can supply prisoners with what they need they will protect you they won't care what you're wearing and James, you know People can say what they want about why people are in jail. I've seen I've seen um I've seen prisoners in jail who have been in for multiple rapes get stabbed cut and burnt And no one would talk to them Yeah, I've seen prisoners in jail who've been in for multiple rapes and because they bring drugs into the jail I mean even some of them even some of the biggest villains that both you and I know Would deal with them You understand what I'm saying. Yeah that that that hypocrisy of it They're like, yeah, as long as you can bring it as long as as long as you can get drugs Oh, you you might you might be a serial rapist, but but We'll have it. I mean, but if you're poor Do I mean if you've got no access to nothing Do I mean and you're in for these deviant crimes you will get your life will be murder Do I mean it's it's just a double standards Yeah, so you found a way to get protection. Yeah You and of course I did all the maximum security prisons as you know, who are you on with? IRA UDA UDF PLO PLA by the time I started moving through a system. That's when a lot of people Where you would have like Muslim extremists would come in and by then I left them all the maximum security system You ever live with Charlie Bronson? Yeah, I was with Charlie Bronson up in Franklin's prison I was next door to him in a segregation unit And I was next door to him in um, sorry. I was with him in Winston Green. Who was it prison? Charlie Bronson. I think he's an absolutely adorable person Um, it was he was always a gentleman to me. He was always extremely kind um Unfortunately, he doesn't have the best press in the world um But he was always a gentleman to me and uh a gentleman and he was I'll say he was to me. I thought he was Bit of a lovable rogue. Yeah, because I think it's a rough diamond. Yeah, it's been over 40 years. He's never done a murder He's just a constant and I think it's the press that maybe keep him in But I think he's trying to change that now I think he's got a good team behind him because I was speaking to Vic that and he says is They're trying to get the team behind them We are they're not trying to pay three that means because all the books and films it's all violence They're trying to change that to hopefully get them out. But of course um, Charlie Charlie's big enough to take this but um Some of his artwork could be considered homophobic And um, I think this is why he received his last sentence because um an art teacher Um Called charlie out on that Charlie went to the art teacher said, what do you think of my art and the teacher I believe was gay um Wasn't too favorable in his comments to our charlie and you know charlie kicked off And now he's got the sentences got now. Um, I don't think charlie bronson is homophobic I think is provocative and um and of course I wish him well and um Charlie if you if if you've got a mobile phone you see this Send me a visit in order and I will come up and see you any way you are in this country so You've had a lot of ups and downs in your life Especially with the self-harm and try to take your own life Were you self-harm and because was that self-medicating was that making you Kind of feel better Or why when did the self-harm and start when did you start doing the self-harm and kind of stuff? Well, I think I started to self-harm probably my mid teens um I wasn't comfortable within my own skin. Um It wasn't just about um I identifying as as a young woman then within this Young man's body. It wasn't just about that It was about the demons that most people Have, you know from their past um Sometimes we think we can change our life and forget what's happened to us But obviously certain times it will it will come out the more you try and the more you try and And and and suppress your feelings Um, eventually it will come out in some way. So I would burn myself with a lighter Um, I would cut with a razor blade um other times the um The self-harm would take um other forms So be perhaps uh alcohol Uh drug use Um, I mean I was on heroin for 15 years Uh 15 years of my life and Every time I took it it was almost to the point of death every time and then also with uh In I ended up in abusive sexual relationships where people would treat me badly and That was like a form of self-harm for me because I could have pulled away from these relationships But I kind of felt that Yeah, that's trauma bonding. Yeah, just to that. So yeah, I love self-esteem. I didn't have much confidence um people are complicated james and um I mean, I'm aware of some of the issues that you've you've raised about your own childhood and You know people we ain't necessarily good to each other and we're not necessarily good to ourselves on occasion Yeah, it's try to value my work in progress james. You're doing amazing things. We'll talk to you on that as well So you're free all that in 2017 you are close to death though because you cut off your own testicles Talk to me about that experience. Well, I prefer to use the term performing a double Orcatec to me and myself james the technical term. I was going to say cut off your balls, but I try to be professional That's james. That's that's that's okay. You know, you know me um politically. I'm uh An anarchist the anarchist queen of uh Of london I mean and and I would fight for the right for your uh, the right for you to say whatever you in every in any way you want I mean you you haven't you haven't hurt my feelings. I've only got one feeling That's my feeling of love too So, how was that? How did that come about then to do that because I know you weren't getting your estrogen Will you try to get estrogen in prison? Well in 2011 the prison system Decided that it would bring out this uh policy the caring management of transgender prisoners 2011 um A prison service instruction or as people would know it as a psi This was ideally uh, it was made up of a list of um rules or Yeah, a list of rules because they were written in italic a lot of this uh a lot of this policy However, a lot of prisons decided to interpret it as guidelines Which is not the same as following something to the rule now um To get on the NHS transgender pathway where you'll be diagnosed with gender dysphoria Then hopefully prescribed estrogen if you're a trans woman Or if you're a trans man be um diagnosed with gender dysphoria and be prescribed testosterone injections To get that you first have to have the diagnosis Now before you could get the diagnosis you have to live Let me do this for the camera. I've always wanted to do this in role For a minimum of two years james that means female underwear female footwear um and um to present To the outside world as a female or as close as you can get within the prison system Um, you'd have to do that for a minimum of two years before you can even Uh get diagnosed with a gender dysphoria diagnosis unfortunately Some prisons especially um in the early days of my transition within prison Um, they were reluctant to let you have female clothing or makeup to be able to live in role So that's one of the reasons why you did it as well cut off your testicles. Well I had been to the clinic Um at chairing cross dr. Barrett. Thank you very much. God bless you and not many people I agree with the decisions that you often make but um I may not necessarily agree with you But I'm still um, I'm still grateful because dr. Barrett is um At chairing cross. I think it still works or he may have retired He he he was always quieting to me and he always challenged me About the decision I was making and how important It would be and the impact it would have on my life But I wasn't prescribed. I wasn't given a diagnosis I was told not only would I have to live in role For a minimum of two years But I would have to live outside of prison For a minimum of two years And no one was talking about my release And I had I felt this This need to stop my body producing testosterone I mean every time, I mean the way you'd have hair on your face in the morning Um, or I'd look at my my testicles. I was just I just felt disgusted I just felt disgusted with myself Um The the muscle mass that I had I just hated I hated my body and um I said to the stuff and I reached out to them. I said to them. If you don't help me, I will help myself And they just laughed. I said, um, I said I will remove my own testicles. That's what I'll do And James I am generally a person of my word if I say well tell you I'm gonna do something I will do It Because um, I've also been diagnosed with a personality disorder And one of my risk factors is being impulsive And it was an impulsive decision that I made to take a prison razor blade at two o'clock in the morning and to remove my own testicles With high insight um I realized how dangerous it was how I'm not going to call my call a decision stupid at that time. It was the most important decision that I had ever made um, and Obviously when I went to a hospital and they help tie up the loose odds and ends kind of thing Um, apparently said I did a really good job Because I'm about future when I did actually I did actually research what I was doing although there was there was a lot of There was a lot of blood loss. Yeah, because you nearly died. Yeah That's a brave thing to do But again with the compulsive and that just shows you how far you would go to try and make a statement and be Who you wanted to be if you're not this is why there needs to be a lot more things in place for people Who's maybe struggling to come to terms with who they are or what they want to be because It's dangerous because suicides on the rise and I believe it's there's so many different factors Commented that that we've had many suicides of transgender people in jail officially um In the last few years, there was three there was three cases But you know, these are people who openly lived as as identified as trans women What it doesn't take into consideration is the amount of people who've committed suicide who haven't come out So it was just considered and just a basic A basic suicide which which is so common Now in a prison system that it doesn't even draw attention in the last prison. I was in we had 22 suicides um in lewis prison. Um, I was in H&P prison elmly on the isle of shepi in the island in the kent the terms history um Don't mean I was there for seven and a half years. We had 35 suicides After perhaps the first 10 you have us didn't even the others didn't even make the local press Shameful see because you were so openly trans and you're openly People knew what you were and what you wanted to be Did a lot of people confined in you then to confine in you to Tell you their secrets are i'm trans not just James It wasn't just prisoners. It's a staff as well because um discrimination Against transgender people doesn't just it's not just it's not just from amongst prisoners one one group of prisoners discriminating against another But staff do it to each other too. There's a lot of bullying amongst prison officers too And i've met staff who are absolutely afraid that their colleagues will find out that their gay, lesbian Transgender or gender non-binary or gender non-conforming or intersex um And they hide these secrets and and you know secrets they can drive you crazy They can make you really ill um It's not about My my um It's not about Sex and it's not about gender to me and the the Organizations that i that i represent Um, or that i'm a or allow me to to to represent them on on on this platform It's about freedom i mean When you've got the prison system is apparently run by professionals So you've got professional civil servants bullying each other In no it that couldn't happen in a majesty's uh inland in revenue You know it couldn't happen in any other um body couldn't happen in in education because people would come out and defend them people to mean but When you've got prison officers who owe us and and i'm not saying all prison officers are like this but People are people whether they be prison officers or whether they be prisoners In a male prison system. There is this toxic Masculinity the harder you are the more people will respect you So i mean prison gyms are full up with people Posing and i'm sure you've done it yourself james and you look great from it And rightly so, um, yeah But you understand yeah, i mean to see the ones who are most violent more angry are the for me now For my experience what i've been learning over the last couple of years about the mindset of people interview The most loudest and craziest people are the most vulnerable For me, that's their shield. That's their protection Well, you're absolutely right james, but that doesn't give these people the right to demonize Uh and victimize other people now I will I'll take it on the chin to mean The transition from uh Not the transition through gender, but the transition from being a victim to a bully That comes with in in a happens in a lot of cases And it also happened in my because i started uh victim Victimizing people and i was a mean motor scooter james. There ain't no doubt about that But I learned a lot of things in prison Not just from people who cared about me Um, but also from people i met every day Especially many members of the ira Who were also musicians because i remember violinist and a guitarist myself um a lot of these um People in the ira The palestinian liberation organization who took the time to sit down and and and And we we spent a lot of time together anyway and a lot of these people were musicians Or we worked in the same workshops Or we were in we were in adjacent cells in segregation units, which was quite often the way and you spend a lot of time talking about your family um Where you had where you had come from what your childhood was like Kind of the same discussions that we're having you know and And they would they would teach me about The lessons that they learn You know a lot of people that i met in prison um, especially who were in for terrorism charges So i mean as they grew older and they mellowed out and were less idealistic um You know they I'm not saying they saw the error of their ways. It's not for me to to to know what's in someone else's head but they try to lead me away from The kind of extreme way I was thinking because I was always challenging the prison system I was always in the segregation unit for year upon year upon year um, I spelt years in strip cells um, I think uh I think charlie bronson's got the world record for the man a time in the segregation unit But um, how's that good mentally for you though being stuck in the room with nothing just break walls it I'm sure you're familiar with um the um The spoke prisons We'd have the center of the jail where if you walked across it you'd get a right ander of prison staff And all the wings would go off into like spokes So it'd be like like ones were for pent in there well I believed that a way a lot the way that a lot of these cells Used to be made was that the window was really high So you couldn't see trees and all you could do was see the sky from your cell window And apparently it was designed like that. So the only thing you could think about was what you had done Reflect on your life and reflect on god so mean it was prisons were built in a way to psychologically affect You don't affect the mind and to break it down but these But you know you you've got all gonna you've got gels Which I do not have any time for like a grendan underword And they say oh well we we break people down to build them back up Yeah, you know now A lot of people will come out the world and say oh grendans grendans fantastic Personally, I don't believe it. I think grendan is a dangerous place but um That's what I think so 2007 you became not just an atlas you became an escape atlas you escaped from prison I know James. I absconded absconded escape sounds better Well, I don't I had to climb a really big fence How does that how so what was going through your mind then did you not have any release day or did you think fuck? This is my opportunity. I'm going to take it because you ended up on an airplane also. I believe Yeah I hope there's not much I I hope I won't after any facing any consequences for this James I'm I'm I'm I'm not claiming to be a paragon or virtue I'm not claiming to ever be a model prisoner um I was a pain in the arse james still James that's just a rumor Right then base of well if you're behind me james, um I have generally been a piss taker in a prison system if um If I could get drugs I would take drugs if I could get phones I would get phones if I could do anything within my power to undermine the prison system and the prison regime as a whole I would do it. I was the second prisoner To go to the european court for the right for prisoners to vote because I think that's really important um and you know I could tell you don't know a secret james. Yes The most important thing I ever learned from prison Was that prison? doesn't work he doesn't And if it did I would tell you You know me enough Prison doesn't prison doesn't work. It's a terrible prison is a terrible It's so and such Anarchic it's so I'm thinking it's so We're supposed to be the seventh richest nation on the planet and yet all we can do with third perhaps 33 000 34 000 people who can't even read or write till to to to the same level of a child of 10 years of age another perhaps 33 34 000 people with drug addiction problems and perhaps another 30 30 or thousand people with uh diagnosed personalities disorders or mental illnesses is is to put them in a prison system which is Just I mean to be kind is dysfunctional um And they think these people going to get out in a better condition than they went in. Yeah, that is so It's not very creative. That's why yeah the the majority of people go back Well, they have well a few nights ago. I was with a friend of mine called Elio the friend her name was and she said to me she said uh or they said to me um I've got two tickets to go and see joker In Leicester Square. Would you like to come along? and at that time I was doing uh, I was um doing a bit of journalism And I was interviewing people tourists outside of Buckingham Palace saying um, would you think of the monarchy? Would you be happy for monarchy in the country that you come from? and um Personally, I'm I'm anti monarchy. I'm a republican um, but not like donald trump republican, you know, I think I mean we should be free uh, Free people in britain not citizens of the crown That's my view. So anyway, I went along to Leicester Square to the premiere of joker and I thought it was absolutely fantastic anyway, at the end the director was there And um, he was asking he said well, does anybody have any questions? So obviously me being the show-off and the narcissist I am Um, I thought you know what this is a golden opportunity um, this is a this is a platform to put across my my thoughts that um That people within prisons and people outside of prisons who commit crime or have mental health issues um, or come from abusive childhoods should not be demonized but they should be They should they should be cared for and they should be nurtured and they should be looked after And they should be seen as victims in their own right rather than criminals Parasites the people we like to hide away So I was able to speak to The old audience at this premiere at Leicester Square. It's a fantastic opportunity And thank you for the director of joker for allowing me that platform I said there needs to be more investment in in mental health You've been to jail yourself. You know, you know, I'm making you know, I'm talking sense, but the thing is This needs that the British public have for revenge It's really Inhumane Portugal are leading by example and always see it. They've dropped their numbers Dramatically, they had one percent of people in Portugal addicted to heroin and those numbers have dropped where you've got Nearing of zero percent people aren't getting re going back to prison Also, there's a study was done with a man called Bruce Alexander. He's a study called rat park He had a cage with a rat. He had one two bottles one with heroin one with water The rat would always go to the heroin and eventually it would overdose and die But he also did another study with a rat park. They called it Activities for the rats. They had the same water bottles one with heroin one with water But the rats had had friends there. This sounds crazy, but search this up was powerful and also they had the the rats had like Running wheels and like swings None of the rats would go to the heroin They would go just for the normal water at rat park, but in the cage themself 100 percent of them would go to the heroin Just let the human beings because this the says well, there's never been a study on humans But if you have if you look at the Vietnam war, I think there was 20,000 30,000 people on heroin 90% of them came back stopped I mean just because they were in that danger zone because there were their selves as well. They were scared Majority went to heroin So in the rat park one the mitra rats went to the water not the heroin So it shows that if you're outside having fun surrounded by good people friends You tend to not slip into those bad habits Which is a check this out. I mean I've just butchered that story there, but it's along those lines Bruce Alexander powerful man so so you're suggesting that and and I agree if it's so so you're suggesting that um that the craving um the craving for for stimulants Uh or or because heroin's a depressant. Yeah, isn't it or and same as alcohol. It's um um Because some people have said to have addictive personalities and I think I do But environment plays a big part in uh in in in our behavior and environment the prison environment played a big part in my behavior and uh, especially the way I reacted um within a prison system I was seen as dangerous I was seen as a threat In whitemore maximum securities. They said I was the most dangerous person in the prison system And I could not fathom that out. I said, how can you say that to me? I said, you've got Dennis Nielsen here That I used to play scrabble with I think it was the scottish. Is it a daily record or something? They did they did an article About it because he used to keep cheating I always used to catch him looking for the blanks in the bag You know, I mean I mean for a person who killed so many people How many people did he kill? I think he killed 13 people then chopped them up and stuffed them down a drain shit, but the most that but the most There was nothing amazing about him. You could never pick you would never picked him out in a crowd I don't think that was the most shocking thing really, but you know, I wasn't I wasn't scared of him. Do you know what I mean? I This I wasn't scared. Did you feel it more ease with the people who are crazier? Did you feel more connected to them craze crazier that's That's so bad semantics The people who had done the most vicious crimes Did you find that more at ease with them because the people you mentioned because I know you mentioned the boy From scottland as well earlier and today we were speaking who came down to london who he gave everybody Well the story of darryl rome Yeah, what was the story about him scottish? Yeah, um, this this this young man in in scottland. I mean I I can't speak for darryl um I was with darryl in in lewis prison um And it was said that he came to or he had met men on tinder and that he had gave them H is hiv or eight or whatever Apparently, that's what they said. He he did of course, uh, darryl darryl said that um it That wasn't So that there was there was there was lots of gray areas In the story. I mean, I don't know the full story. All I know is perhaps what you know from reading Um from reading the newspapers But it was always pleasant to me. How have you adapted in because you're just out nearly four months So how have you adapted to society been away from it so long? Because you're doing amazing things which we'll touch on but how have you adapted? I think amazing. I think you're you're that's of that. I think you're stretching that out No, you're doing big things man. You're you're constantly able to talk. How are you adapting though? How are you feeling just now? um Well sitting across from me. He must be feeling fucking great. But how do you feeling in general? James don't be so unnice in the world James Listen You're not Listen darling You're not in scotland now I'm done. You're you're in You're in in in london Which I would still say is the greatest city in the world with some of the greatest people And uh at the moment you're in london, so that makes you great too James So how are you adapting to the world then? You feeling good? um Well it's everything that's um It's quite it's up every day as it's ups and downs um I mean I'm fortunate that I have some really I have a really fantastic team of people around to support me um I love my friends um I love the people who've supported me all the way through prison Uh, it's one of one of my oldest friends um I mean visited me almost at least at least once a month for 28 years all over britain You know and my friend now is 81 years of age So we often meet up for lunch but um I thought Now I'm out of prison What can I do to give my life Some meaning um All the ideas that I had in my head um The books that I read because when I went to prison I couldn't read or write so I pretty much educated myself and When the opportunity arose I did my I'll say my gcscs and my a levels whatever um And this went on to study politics and economics You've got a degree in economics history You have a degree in economics james. I have I have many qualifications james, but you know what they're just pieces They're pieces of paper. The thing is how can I use the knowledge that I had gained? um How could I how could I use that academic use of that in the outside world? I wouldn't say they were just pieces of paper because For what you do because we'll touch on the fact that You're not just an offer, but you're a professional violinist a great artist And also these the people that you're working with just now. I had to write them down because there's that many so we've got r w o c I w o c yeah incarcerated workers organized in committee You want to run down of who they are? Yes, let's go. There are a fantastic group of people um across the world branches everywhere In britain at the moment there is a prison building program Now what apparent what seems to be happening is that um A lot of taxpayers money is being used to build prisons And then apparently the control of these prisons has been handed over to private companies Now these private companies are allowing uh business big businesses to come in whether it's um people like virgin or being q allowing Come companies to actually come into prisons and use prison labor on the cheap So And and thus undercutting local economies So I mean, why would they pay someone minimum wage when they can get a prisoner to do it for 25 quid? Yeah, so I mean exportation now in the united states where this is this is a run of the mill thing Prisoners are being exploited and maybe it's too strong a word to use the word slave labor But when it comes down to the fact when they say well, if you don't go and work in this workshop Which is called purposeful activity. You may not get your parole do you mean you may not um You may not get certain privileges that other prisoners who are working get so you're actually forced to work for a private company While you're serving your prison sentence Me I call that exploitation me. I call that wrong me I'll call these fuckers out now in the united states A lot of prisons are started forming unions. They said well if I work for a private company We should be unionized Whether that will ever happen in british jails. I'm not too sure but uh, one for organizations like the IWOC um they are they are They are challenging. Um They are challenging the authorities about their the way they treat prisoners. You've also got um queer care Yeah queer care is an absolutely fantastic organization. Um They if when I go to prisons or um if I need to travel to a prison to deliver, um makeup or foundation or clothing Because my organization is the trans as you know the CEO of the trans prison reliance um queer care absorb all the train costs I mean the support they've given me is I mean they've given me mental like mental health support um Any issues that I may have uh We've getting on in the community Being trying to help me become less institutionalized queer care Is is is is there for is there for me? They're a fantastic organization The links in the description for all these amazing organizations that you're working for. We've also got The national prisoner radio Oh, um, yeah national prison radio, which is based in, um brickson next to the brickson prison. And what is this for? Well, every so often I've been invited in to do pretty much what we're doing here do a podcast So And One of the guys there he was like kind of shadow Shadowing me around london asked me what my views were about the world after 30 years in prison um They were really really supportive And um, especially they did this the crime and consequence book for clinks um They did like the podcast they did the podcast for that because I was uh I was given a chapter in the book a transgender in the 21st century prison system and um The podcast was recorded by the national uh prison radio. Uh, so thank you very much And you've also you write articles for the freedom press Yes, I do. Yeah Freedom press is one of the oldest, uh independent um Radical publishers of of um Of left-wing and radical news in the world um It's neither the guardian or the or or the times um I think the the writers Uh, some of the most courageous, uh, some of the greatest and some of the most courageous writing I've seen um If you want to go to like freedom press bookshop, uh, which is next door to the whitechapel gallery up in or gay east um They they have stickers. They have uh, they have uh books Uh, they give you insights into history from a slant you may not have heard before I mean these um Some of it is left-wing there's a lot of uh a lot of uh Anarchist uh publications, which doesn't mean you go around blowing up shit Yeah, what it means is you're challenging the status quo And obviously you've got uh, is it 56 a bookshop? um in south london I mean between um I mean in london these are places that I go to if I want to know about uh, british history um if I want to do research on um on government policies regarding transgender prisoners and um Of course, they're fantastic places to network with some of the greatest to kindness And the coolest minds in london at this moment It's great to see that you're involved with a lot of good people then people as well and they support you That must be good for you So plans for the future then moving forward What's your plans because I know you want to be in the political party I want you want to be a politician you want to be something in the big cable that's supposed to be a fucking secret not now Well No, no, that's no. That's okay. Go for it. Yeah, I told you james. I mean no There's An organization that I really care about that I support called CAPE, the Campaign Against Prison Expansion. Now, at the moment, I think that young black men, young Muslim men, women with mental health issues and obviously white males with mental health issues, the poor, the vulnerable, not just, I'm not just blaming the Tories for this, but the default setting has been that if you do not conform, if there is no spaces for you in psychiatric units because the units has been sold off so the lands can be gentrificated and have big buildings on it for profit, the default setting is for people like that is prison. Prison, the default setting for hiding away our social problems. James, it's unethical and it's immoral and every, the thing is everybody knows this. I mean, you know this, I know, I mean, I know that you know that, the governments know this, but they're not willing to share. Jeremy Corbyn was absolutely right and I love Jeremy. I mean, I love him and I know he's a pain in the ass. I know a lot of people are suspicious of him. A lot of people think he's anti-semitic. Bollocks, at the last general election, he was demonised. But he was right and there's so many things that we don't agree on. But what he was right about was this. We're not a poor country. We're not impoverished. This country is not on its ass. There are enough resources for everybody. But people have to share. You know, I thought one of the first lessons that most parents teach their children is to share. Now, Boris Johnson, for all his faults, I mean, I call him the Don Quixote of the 21st century. And if you've read Don Quixote, you know exactly what I mean. For all Boris Johnson's faults, him and his team, they pulled a master stroke. And that was to divide working-class communities. And they did that. And they encouraged and they fermented this idea in the minds of many working-class people in Britain that all of their ills, all of their woes and all of their problems were down to immigration. James, you're an immigrant in my city. When I come to Glasgow, I'd be an immigrant in yours. This building that we're sitting in, this microphone, this lead and my glasses, this are probably all made by immigrants. I mean, immigrants build great Britain. What do you think the state of freedom of speech is the now do you think it's getting a took away from the people? Can you expand on that, please? I just think if somebody's willing to speak out about something, nobody's allowed opinions anymore without getting called out or getting called a racist or a Nazi, that's right or wrong. You can't just sit and have an normal discussion with someone and two people disagreeing but sitting civilly. And do you feel as if when people are speaking out that the people's getting their words twisted where people are too scared to talk about certain subjects now because they're scared of the backlash? Do you mean in the private arena or in the public arena? I've just been in both in general. James, the circles that I mix in, I say the wrong things. I make on a regular occurrence, I make social faux pas and I acknowledge that. I acknowledge that I maybe my mouth was working faster than my brain. There's nothing wrong with being sensitive and with being kind and being respectful of and having good manners. There's nothing wrong with that. And that is that is a thing that we should all encourage amongst each other. If you've if you've got an idea in your head or if you have a view and you know it's going to hurt someone else, well, if you've got nothing worth saying, you know it, say fuck all. I mean, but if you do, don't be a coward. Don't be a whiner. Don't say, oh, I don't say nothing because because everybody will shoot me down. Well, when you say something, there are consequences. There are consequences to what we do with our hands and our consequences to what we say. Now, I miss gender people. Not often, but I do. But because I do that, it doesn't the people that have around me are forgiving it. And I say, look, sometimes I just don't think I mean, getting the pronouns wrong, especially with a lot of my friends who identify as gender on binary. And for that, I am I'm I am sorry. And and and they know that and they are forgiving. And they encourage me to think to think more about other people and maybe to slow to slow my mouth down a bit. Yeah, that's good. I think I think I think maybe you can take some lessons from my friends, that would just shoot. I just live podcast. Yeah, we just been sitting in silence. Yeah, Sarah, it's been an absolute pleasure. Is it anything you would like to finish up on? I think for this moment, I've said all I've got to say, and I'd like to thank me. I'm not gonna I mean, I don't know who's maybe you should have got a bigger room to film this podcast because R2E goes in the same room. It's just too big. No, I'll take like I say, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank my friends at queer care. Obviously campaign against prison expansion, incarcerated workers, organizing committee, and the prisoner on my on my words. You should have brought that up. The prisoner solidarity network. So we do. We write to transgender prisoners whose families perhaps have deserted them. We're about the abolishment of the IPP sentence. And I'm sure you know about that issue already. Anyone can go online and read about the IPPs where some people have been given like a been told are you you have to do a minimum of two years. And they're still in 14 years later. Imagine you're a parent or a child and your family and your and your dad, your brunt brother, your mum or your cousins been told you've got to do two years and then 14 years later, you're still in there. It's fucking it's in your mind and it's wrong. So people like like the prisoner solidarity network, I said we write and we support prisoners who are in jail. If they need legal help, if they need psychiatric reports to challenge unfavorable ones made by prison or psychiatrists employed by the prison system. We try to do that. And No, but queer Britain, they're exhibiting prisonopoly, which the piece of art that I made, they're exhibiting that as part of the queer Britain exhibition, which is being run by the fantastic and gorgeous Joseph Galliano leave all the links in the description before we finish up. For anybody that's maybe want to come forward and speak to you or maybe because you're honest about everything. So for anybody that's maybe needing any help, how can they contact you through your social media? If you put Sarah Jane Baker, can I indulge me a moment? This is my favorite thing to do. This feeds my narcissism. You should do this more often. So if I click this, this is the first mobile phone I've ever read outside of a prison. So if I click on here and go, hey, Google, is that right? Feed my narcissism. Come on, Samsung Galaxy. Hey, Google. What the f**king you want? Oh, if you've, you know, someone showed me some of these things, we can say things to it and it just pops up. But anyway, if you just say, hey, Google, hey, Google, what did it say? Get, well, I normally say to a Google, who is Sarah Jane Baker? And it will tell you who I am. It will tell you that I'm the CEO of the Trans Prisoner Alliance that I hope everybody will support. Get involved, get behind them. Yeah, yeah. And also we're trying to raise, we're trying to raise money as well because now you're basically... You can go away now. Because you're trying to get a flat because basically you're homeless just now as well. Yeah, well, I've been told that my time in a hostel is up and that I shouldn't use the hostel to hide in. This is time for me to move on. Obviously I need to live in an area which I consider safe, that there is some security and that I can run my organization from. Because I'll say there are, I believe about 2000 transgender prisoners, 140 approximately living openly. I believe nobody should have to live in fear, whether you're in prison or whether you're outside. And I will do everything within my power to ensure that transgender prisoners in jail, which are one of the most marginalized sections of Britain at the moment, there's not many people who are going to or are supporting trans prisoners or identify as transgender, whether they be trans men or trans women or indeed anybody, LGBT, QI or anybody, prison solidarity network and queer care and the Trans Prisoner Alliance or indeed IWOC or CAPE, we support prisoners, we support everybody. And we will leave all the links in the description including try to help Sarah get her apartment so she can live safe and keep doing what she's doing to help others who need your help basically. But listen, it's been an absolute pleasure, my love. It's likewise. God bless and I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for this opportunity. And thank you very much to all the people out there who've supported me since my release. I love you all and I value the support that you've given me. Thank you my love, I appreciate it. And the great British public too. Yeah, more of the Scottish though. Thank you.