 Then H-26, the natural lane to restricting the retail and internet sales of electronic cigarettes, liquid nicotine and tobacco paraphernalia, and two of the people are on the phone. So please don't have your things plugged in. Collette has, she's the owner, and she'll, she's the owner of a, hi Collette, this is Julie Puffer, she's the housekeeper and the circle speaker. Thanks, I'm going to put you on the speakerphone, okay? All right, thank you. You have that green button. Thank you. It's just exercise. Collette, this is Representative Anne Pugh, can you hear me? Sorry. I'll be easier if I just move this. Collette? Collette, can you hear me? Not very well. Okay, if I scream, can you hear me? Yeah, you seem to be speaking in and out a little bit. Okay, sorry. Thank you very much. Can you hear me okay? Yeah, we actually can hear you quite well. Thank you very much. And so why don't you introduce yourself? And I see that you have some testimony that you want to read or talk about, and then we will ask you questions. That sounds great. Okay, thank you. Thank you members of the House Human Service Committee. Thank you for providing me the opportunity to testify in this Court of A26. For the record, my name is Collette DeVoise of Manchester, Vermont. My husband, Ed, who is also here with me. We both hope to answer any questions you have and are grateful for this occasion for that occasion. My husband and I have owned the Denver Standing Base Shop in the heart of downtown Bennington for the past five years. We know our store has been a long-standing fixture in the community for over 40 years. We're proud to offer a wide selection of Vermont-based products from craft beers to make the syrup to wine to date products. We're also proud of this to employ several time and two-part time vermoners. At the time we purchased the store, it was near-ready closed stores due to the emergence of several big stock stores in the Bennington area. By investing our time, efforts, and money into creating a base shop, we've been able to create a predictable revenue stream that allows us to continue operating. While the proposed 92% tax on the Eastings and Bates products will be economically daunting, we believe the age 26 will serve to mitigate the negative economic consequences of this tax on Vermont businesses and will further reluctantly use efforts to reduce underage consumption of tobacco subsidies. With regard to the conversations surrounding underage purchases, it's important to recognize the difference in regulatory safeguards a business like ours offers as opposed to an internet retailer. At our store, we have multiple levels of safeguards to ensure consumers of Eastings-Bates products are of local age. First of all, we have a designated tobacco and date area that requires you to demonstrate that you are 18 or older with entry gates and signage before entering our Bates and Tobacco area. The customer then goes in that area and ensures locked date cabinets, containing products that require only our employees to unlock for customers. They are not accessible for customers serving themselves. Finally, there's a second ID checkpoint at our counter when checking out these items. These safeguards are very effective in preventing underage purchases. As you know, our store is also subject to standard compliance operations by the Department of Liberal Control, which we routinely pass. Now, for a moment, let's contrast the situation with the internet. We're keen to have access to talent websites offering a cheaper product with minimal savings safeguards. According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, underage teens are successful in 94% of their attempts to purchase these things online. This access to the internet is an easier venue for underage reminders to acquire these products illegally. If the state is going to impose a tax to curb underage youth, we cannot ignore the fact that they can currently be easily purchased online. 826 addresses these concerns. As I understand it, a large driving force in the conversation tax-easing and paid products has been the goal to establish parity in tax rates in tobacco products and tobacco substances. However, considering the fact that the online purchase of cigarettes is currently illegal, passing the tax done is only will not achieve parity. Only by coupling the tax with internet restrictions contained in 826 will the state truly be treating tobacco products and tobacco substances on a level playing field. It's also very important to note that the proposed tax will not decrease consumption, but will rather drive consumers to look to other states with more competitive tax rates or to the internet to purchase a basic product. In anticipation of this deferral of consumption, the state can more accurately ensure a decline in consumption by prohibiting the online purchase of these products. Finally, it's necessary to address the economic realities in the room. The proposed 92% tax rate will hurt our business. However, by passing 826, you can take a real step towards supporting Vermont stays for demoral retailers by mitigating the economic consequences of this tax, all while furthering your efforts to curb underage consumption. This bill is a win-win vote for Vermont retailers, as well as out against the policy makers, who will be sure to experience the intended benefit. For all of these reasons, we respectfully ask you to pass the 26th out of committee with favorable recommendations. At this time, Ed and I would be happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Thank you Colette and Ed for the part that you had in writing this. Thank you for putting it in writing so that we can see it and go back to it. Committee, do you have questions for Colette or her husband? Colette, I'm curious. This is Mary Beth Redmond, a representative from Essex. I'm curious what percent of your business these cigarettes are and what you think the impact of it will be, this legislation? I'm referring to Essex or Bates because the industry has shifted away from Essex. Those are the disposable, used products that a lot of the tobacco companies were selling a few years ago. Everybody has moved now to Bates, which are resettable and these over and over for a long period of time and just require you to put juice in them. I'm going to refer to really just Bates products because we sell very, very few Bates. Hi, this is Ed, her husband. Thank you folks. The answer to that question is a little complicated in the sense that while if you look at our store on an overall basis, the percentage of sales that are Bates shopping later or Bates relating are probably only, again, actual dollar value, maybe 20%, 25%. However, what's important for us, and this isn't just for us, it's for any store in the situation that sells these different products, is the profit margins on only other things. We sell beer, wine and cigarettes and other tobacco companies and newspapers and so forth. There are very, very small profit margins, especially when you're competing at the big box stores. So the Bates shop, when you sell Bates products, not only do we feel like we're getting people off cigarettes and so forth, but it introduces a higher profit margin into the blend of our business, which allows us to remain sustainable. And that's where the 92% tax will hurt us, but at the same time the age of 26 will hope to offset that as much as possible. But just for the record, that Bates component of our store has been growing over the last five years. When we bought this store there was no Bates shopping. As I said, it's now about 25%, maybe even 30% of our business. So it has been growing as we've been able to move a lot of for monitors, I would say both young and old. I have these customers that are 75 years old that have finally been able to get off cigarettes. So we've been able to see success in that area and it continues to grow. Great. Thank you. Wow. Is 26% of your business? So do you have any sense as to how much is you might gain by us limiting internet sales? Well, not really. What's unknown to us today is, well, we know for a fact we have people that will come into the store and make references that, oh, I usually buy this online, but I'm striped by, so, you know, I'm starting to copy. But we know there's a presence out there of some of our customers that may decide to buy online for whatever reason. And then we know there's a population of folks that are buying online that never, they never think about going to a store like ours or any other store for that matter. And that's just a personal decision. Maybe you can use the Amazon model, I guess, in that case. It's hard for us to measure that. We don't know if we're going to pick up 1% or, you know, 50%. We just, we honestly don't have a handle on that. We've not deployed any metrics to try to figure that out. So I wish I had a better answer. No, that's a fine answer. You know, there's no good or bad answer. James. They're betting. So, I mean, I would say it's more complicated than just internet sales, right? Because if we have the tax, you have to compete with Massachusetts and New York, right? Correct, yeah. And that's a big problem for us, you know, and that's one of the... I mean, we've been scrambling over the last couple of weeks trying to figure out how to mitigate to the best of our abilities tax. So it's going to have, it is without a doubt going out of impact. And we've found ways to soften the ranking, so to speak, a little bit. But, you know, our biggest fear is that the business we currently have is then going to move to the internet. And, you know, they'll join all these, you know, the purchases that are currently being done by underage people on the internet. So the internet is going to become the real main area of commerce in the state of Vermont for big products. So it's... And then, you know, like anything else, I guess we can logically imagine that if that were the case, you know, with the younger crowd, the, you know, under-18 crowd, 14, 15, 16-year-olds that we hear are buying things off the internet, I mean, the more prevalent that becomes, that will get horizontal real quick and they'll teach each other how to do it and you'll just see, I think they'll just be an inbound increase in intensity and those types of purchases as well. Thank you. Thank you. Are there other questions for Colette or Ed? Thank you. Thank you both for taking time out of your store to testify and I particularly note your comment that this bill is a win-win situation for, as you said, Vermont brick and mortar retailers and a win for advocates and policymakers. So thank you for that. And thank you for adding your voice. Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you for allowing us. Okay, bye-bye. Bye-bye. Have a good day. Thank you. Bye-bye. Have a lot of fun. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Okay. Bye-bye. Okay. Thank you. Good. And thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. I thought there was going to be a one-phone or a non-phone. Throw me a cross call. Give me your address. She's from my town. We have trouble getting him. We will move to New Panther. Can you speak? This is Julie Colling from Housing and Services. I'm good. I'm going to put you on the speakerphone with MIDI, OK? All right. Thanks. Good to know. It's Representative Van Pugh. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Good. See, I keep my word. But where are you? That's right. You're on the phone. OK, great. I was on the rocking and select board, and we were done with our budget. And town meeting is Tuesday, and we had to call an emergency meeting yesterday that I have to attend today. We had a piece of this taken out of service, and now we have to try to figure that out. That's a good excuse. That's a good excuse. Our hard work and our level-funded budget, so we have a meeting at 3 o'clock. I have to attend too. So I couldn't make it today. I apologize. That's all right. I was just teasing you, and our prior witness was on the phone as well. So you want to speak about age 26, which is an act relating to restricting retail and internet sales of electronic cigarettes, liquid nicotine and tobacco paraphernalia, in Vermont, to limit it to wholesalers. And so you want to testify? Sure. I mean, I would oppose this bill simply because I have two retail stores and I have a website. We don't ship anything on the internet since the FDA passed one of their first set of regulations in which under federal law, if you sell these products on the internet, you have to go through a three-part age verification process. So we're mostly retail. I just simply stopped my internet because it's a lengthy process, and I personally am not interested in being scammed by someone who may not be of age. So under federal law, this is already, it's a law under federal law right now. So my concern is for someone who may live in the middle of Vermont who's landlocked, who can't go to New Hampshire or a different state to purchase their products. I'm sure you've all seen the news release two weeks ago with New England Journal of Medicine, their studies stating that these products were twice as effective as any NRT system on the market. Everyone knows what a NRT system is, right? Why don't you, there's some nods of confusion. So what is an NRT? It's a nicotine replacement therapy. I.e. the nicotine patch, the gum, the lozenge. Are people aware of the... Yes. So they're saying vaping is twice as effective as these products in helping adults move away from smoking cigarettes, giving an adult a choice to use a much safer product. So let's say that person in the middle of Vermont who doesn't have a reliable vape shop around and has been ordering his products from a juice company that he likes their juice, he likes their e-liquid. I don't see how punishing that person is going to help with... What I think we should punish are the people... It's a federal law. So if someone's breaking that law right now by punishing an adult, my concern is for the customers who are of legal age who use these products. So, you know, I've been competing in essence with the internet for five years. I mean, you can buy anything on the internet cheaper, but we have folks who like to come to our retail store where they'll get great customer service and care. We show them how to use it. We show them how to use it safely. So, I mean, it may seem odd that I don't support this, but I think I fight for my customers' rights. Anyone, any adult who's used this product to not smoke cigarettes, I don't think they should be punished. So, restricting their ability if they're an adult Vermonter who lives in a very rural section and has been successful in ordering these products from a company they like, I think they should be able to do that. I think we should continue to figure out what to do with the kids. You know, I think, you know, we have to be 18 to come in our store. This is all we sell. We don't sell beer. We don't sell tobacco. This is all we do. And we're very good at it. And we're very respectful. We have awards from the Vermont Department. So, liquor control, five years running. They send in underage people. We tell them they're not old enough. They come in and shake our hands and ask for our certificates. And it goes a little plaque. And we have some local prevention groups who have also given us certificates that we probably display on our wall. I don't sell the jewel. It's probably the one product you hear most about. So, I'm a little off topic, but I'm not in favor of. That's fair. Yeah. Thank you, Gatenno. Is there, we have a couple of questions for you around this bill. Sure. Two questions. I'm Mary Beth Redmond from Essex. Two questions. One, why, I'm curious why you don't sell the jewel. And two, wouldn't inter, wouldn't restricting internet sales drive more people to buy at your retail stores and thus helping your business? And thank you. So, in all honesty, as a, as a, as someone who used these products to stop smoking after watching all my grandparents die, my best friend died from throat or lung cancer. I tried to quit. I was successful with this product. I made zero nicotine. I don't drink. I don't use drugs. So, this is what I enjoyed to do. I'm 48 years old. When the jewel came out, it was controversial. Right out of, right off, right out of the gate. It was higher nicotine and I saw and read. I read a lot and pay attention to a lot of things that it was getting in the wrong hands. It was, I've just been against it. I just don't support it. If an adult uses one to quit smoking, I support that. But the fact that it became trendy or whatever the word may be, discreet, I didn't want to be associated with that. We don't, we sell, we don't sell it. I never have. If I was just doing this, like some people in Montpelier think, I'm just a businessman. I'm invested in this industry. I mean, I'm a successful, I have a successful construction company. I'm very passionate about the adults that I've seen, that I've witnessed, that I've helped. Watching them with their lives because of these products. So, on the other hand, you can walk in to Tiber, that's what I call it, our local convenience store. And take my, she's now 19, but years ago, my 16-year-old daughter, we'd get a gator at their soccer game. She would have to expose these products at the counter because there they are at the counter. Like in my store. So, I mean, the second part of this bill is interesting to me too. Where are their souls? I think we should, we should work on where are their souls. Not in a convenience store where it's age restriction, where it's not age restricted. So, to summarize, I don't sell it because it's controversial and I'm against it. Okay. Thank you. We have, I believe, one more question from, oh no. Actually, the same question. I think I kind of touched on it earlier. I've been competing with the internet since I've been in business and I understand, we've had customers that will go and try, you know, they can buy a product for probably half price of what I sell it for. Some of them do that and they may not have good luck. They don't know how to use it. It's not the right color. It doesn't work. They have no warranty. They all eventually come back. So, you know, we have a really good regular customer base that we work with and I'm just going to go back to that person in the middle of a month who doesn't have a big shop around, who's been buying his juice from Kentucky and he likes it and it works for him. I don't think he should be penalized. Thank you. I'm right next to New Hampshire too, so I also compete with New Hampshire stores and we have, you know, zero sales tax over there. I'm still competitive with New Hampshire. It's just the way we run our shops that gets people coming to our shops. Katana, thank you. Thank you for taking time out of your business and appreciate your feedback on this bill. Okay. Was there any more questions? There aren't. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. Okay. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. Patrick. Yeah. Can we sit over there? Yeah. Okay. If you could introduce yourself to the record for the record and you're on tape. And clearly, all sorts of people are paying attention to you too. All right. Thanks. My name is Patrick Berkham, principal at South Burlington High School. I've been in that position for a long time. I've been at the school for 21 years. Do you want me to tell you why I'm in favor of this? Yes. Sure. Or if you're not. Why not? I am in fact in favor of this and it happened rather by accident in that this, I had heard from some of my principal colleagues that vaping was becoming somewhat of a problem. And not just from a student management standpoint, it's not like the old days you go in the bathrooms and they smell like cigarettes. That's gone now. The bathrooms don't smell like cigarettes ever in high schools. I think that's certainly like when I was in high school. In the 80s, that was the issue. Almost ever. So what's happening now, what's kind of fascinating is that we really wanted kids to not smoke cigarettes inside the school because it was like a nuisance. And schools in the 60s and 70s had like smoking sections and things like that, which is kind of an odd way. But it was like that was how the schools had to deal with the fact that it was becoming this nuisance in this management process. So the ironic thing about vape products is like they don't create that same environmental oppression that I think tobacco smoke did. And so the issue actually with us in terms of vaping is that kids are nicotine addicted, like really nicotine addicted. And I'll tell you that in like September, it was really hard for us in September because you have a bunch of 14 to 19 year olds, many of whom are not many, but a sizable number of whom are coming off the summer where there's fairly like unbridled access to nicotine products and vaping. And now we're saying like, hey, pay attention in your history class. And they're saying, I have to go to the bathroom. I have to leave every class. And when I leave classes, I'm really dealing with an actual addiction. And so we experienced what I would describe as an explosion of that this fall. And I had heard from some of my principal colleagues that they experienced a similar increase in addicted youth. And this spans the entire population. And we had to go all the way back to our co-curricular policies and talk to our student athletes. And it's really difficult because as at least one caller mentioned earlier, there are actually legitimate, healthy uses for people who are trying to go through smoking cessation or whatever. So you can go online. If you're looking to find somebody to tell you that it's not bad for you, you can find it. And so I was frustrated. So I finally went to our school resource officer and I was like, I would like a list of all of the convenience stores that are selling these vape products to these kids because they all have them. They seem to have no problem accessing the products. And I was going to be that good consumer and say, I'm never going to fill in the blank mobile anymore because they've been busted selling vape products to kids. And the school resource officer said none of the convenience stores are getting in trouble or cited or whatever, at least none of the ones in the south. We're only going to force selling vape products to underage students so that we're getting them. And it can't be that the 18-year-olds are all out there buying them and giving them to the freshmen. It just doesn't go like that. I'm not saying that never happens, but it doesn't really play out like that in school. It didn't with cigarettes. It doesn't with alcohol. It doesn't. So anyway, and so he and I looked in and we found out that they get them online. And it's really easy, like super easy. In fact, you can do it yourself. If you just Google vape products online, you will get to a website and there will be a pop-up that says, please certify that you are a legal spoken age in the state you reside. You can check yes, and then you'll enter the site and order whatever you want, including like super highly addictive. And I don't want to pretend to know more about the actual technology of vaping than I do because I'm not an expert. But I am told that the addiction window, especially for young people with developing grades is really short and that kids are becoming addicted to nicotine at a really alarmingly quick rate. And so when I found that these young people were buying them online, and I kind of remember this one freshman, who's, you know, you know how when the freshman come over to the high school, like you don't know this. But every year when the freshman come over to the high school, I feel like they look younger. Some of that is my gray hair. But you know, there was this one freshman and you know, I mean, if you had told me that he was in grade five, I would have believed you no problem. And he's got vape products. And I'm like, how does that guy get vape products? And then that's when we found out that he can collect money from his friends, go down to Hannaford, buy a one-time Visa gift card, and then goes online and orders some vape products and they get shipped to his house and he gets the mail every day before his mom and or dad get home. And he's got them. And then he was kind of like the guy who was supplying them to other kids, you know, because he just had it figured out. So I'm encouraging him to join DECA, the entrepreneur club. But, you know, I'd like for it to be under a better circumstance. So anyway, when I discovered after the school resource officer from Southampton, police told me that this was how the kids were getting it in my thought. Well, they can't buy a six-pack online to my knowledge. They can't buy a carton of candle lights online, so they shouldn't be able to do this. And here we are. That's heartening actually to hear the retailer because I do think the retailers are responsible about this. I do think every time I'm in line and somebody's buying tobacco or vape products in front of me in line, they are checking IDs. So, you know, I feel like putting the bulk or 100% of the sales of these products in the hands of those business folks and, you know what, if there's a bounce to brick-and-mortar business in Vermont, that's great. You know, I don't want to necessarily, I don't know where you could live in Vermont and not be relatively close to a convenience store where you can buy vape products. You know, it seems to me like, you know, if there's a gas station, there's a place where you can buy them. So anyway, you know, that's my motivation and I'd like all my kids to graduate from high school without any addictions. You know, this is, this is, I think, I think could be a way forward. That would be helpful. I had a question and then Carl. I was curious to speak up. I was curious because you did talk about that then it went to the home and the kid was getting it before his parents. Have you tried reaching out to parents at all about letting them know that this is a practice, you know, a practice? Because I'm one of those parents who had senior in high school just last year and I didn't know about it until I came here to this community. So I was curious and now you guys are starting to reach out. Yeah, definitely. I mean, especially, you know, when we're dealing with students who are, who are like in violation of our vape policy, obviously that's a conversation with parents and then more globally I have a prevention coordinator and he communicates broadly with parents and just kind of say like, this is about everything related to prevention. So yes, I mean, I do think that, yeah, there's, there's kind of always right this little gap of time where like kids kind of know what's going on and we don't and then we find out that we tell each other and kind of network around it and do what we can to support kids to make sure that, you know, to the extent that we can control if they're making healthy choices. We'll need to get the mail before they do. Yeah, I mean, you know, that's like age old, you know, like you might want to get home before the report card, you know. There's all sorts of like, you know, motivation to get the mail first, I guess. But yeah, you know, so it's, it's been a, and it feels to me like I don't know enough about how to regulate all this stuff, but it seems to me like in reading the, the bill as it's currently written, it feels like we can make that happen. Carl, then Dan. So how did you get all these kids came back off summer break that were highly, what we call it? How did you get them back under control, you know, like if they were probably trying to make during class, because we're hearing stories that they, they reach in their desk or in their bag and they take a, take a drag on the fake product or something. Is that true? Do you run into this? I mean, I, I don't want to make it sound like it's, it's that bad in terms of, I'm certain that what you just described happens. But, and I think that what, you know, just like with any addiction, I think that, you know, there were some barriers that were put up at school because like we were expecting kids to be in class and, you know, that, that probably tapered their use. But when you're around a group of people who are addicted to something who are like coming off of that addiction, they're cranky. And so that was kind of the other element to this was like, what is the problem? You know, why are people so cranky? And so, you know, we had an increase in other kinds of, of student management issues that, that were new to us, you know what I mean? And, and, you know, I don't want to overstate it because, you know, correlation doesn't equal causation. But, you know, when I've got more kids out of class all the time in their, the bathrooms, like we actually have to patrol the bathrooms. I haven't patrolled the bathrooms in 20 years, you know, and it's like, what's going on? And so, and really we've had like, we never have fights at school really. We had a fight this year and it was over like a vape debt, you know, and, and it was like a real fight too. You know, like we had to separate. He wasn't just like, you know, scuffle in a basketball game or something, people pushing and shoving. So, you know, it really just made me think I just don't see any, you know, value to this. I mean, I guess that people can argue about the age or the tax or all that, that's all fine. But, but providing what seems like unbridled access to underage young people in Vermont is definitely a mistake. Do you have a percentage like how many kids are using these products? I mean, I know it's probably hard to get an exact number, but I mean, is it 2% or 5% or? I think it's higher than that. We just took our youth risk behavior survey right before break. We're on break right now. I think we took it last Tuesday. So we will get that data as part of our youth risk behavior survey. I think he said 12% last year. I think we got testimony. If it was 12% last year, I'd be willing to bet it's higher this year. And how many students in your school? 950. So I'd be willing to bet for sure it's higher than 12%. Although, you know, there's, I also have, you know, half of my senior class are 18. So like they would be like legal users of these products. And so they're included in that 12%. I would think. So, you know, I don't want the kids to use them whether they're legal or not. But I think my primary concern, especially with what we know about developing brains, you know, the younger you are, the shorter that addiction cycle can be. You know, it might take an adult, you know, a few months of smoking tobacco or vaping to become a full-on addict, whereas it might take a young person short of two weeks. And, you know, it's pretty innocuous because like, you know, like I said, you know, I haven't had a student athlete, you know, busted for smoking in like 15 years, like smoking actual cigarettes. But now like, you know, we're all like dealing with. And when you sit with these kids, sometimes like last year more than this year, like this year they're starting to get the message. And sometimes last year you can sit with them and they'd be like, wait, that's against the rules? And I'd be like, it's against the law. You know, like you're 16. But there is, there was at least a little bit more of a mystique that this was like really harmless, you know, that was just, you know. And I think that that's been successfully tackled. I don't think that, I don't think that student sort of being genuine would really try to make the case that it was a healthy activity Are there other questions? Oh, sorry, Topper. How you doing? Thanks for coming in. Thanks. You keep bringing up student athletes. This is my own experience because I've got grandkids that are student athletes. If you talk to them, they will tell you that not only is the vaping product itself being used, but it's being used for other means as well. I'm sure that's true. And I think you're right when you say it's more than what the survey said last year. And that would be taking into consideration the exaggeration that you may be getting to when you talk to them. So it's a problem. I think this is going to go a long ways to helping solve part of that problem. It's not going to solve it altogether, but it'll help. Yeah. In a big way, I think. And we'll know too, and I'd be happy to come back to the, you know, it's all anecdotal anyway, but you know, we'll know next fall. I mean, if it becomes harder for kids to get this summer, I promise you, you know, we will have fewer addicted kids in the, it comes September. Patrick, thank you. Thanks for putting a face on that in terms of what's happened in these schools. Sure thing. Thanks for taking this up. Thank you. Shayla? Andrew McClain from Reynolds American has seated his down to Shayla. Just kidding. He said, just kidding. No, he said they are not having a need to testify on this. So they will not be. All right. Well, I'm Shayla Livingston from the health department. And I'm here today and my testimony will be very brief. You heard a lot from the, yep. She has a document. She does? Hold on. I guess I'm just putting up the ones that you sent. Oh, yes. Thank you. There you are. Thank you. So you've heard a lot from the commissioner of health in January about his concerns around e-cigarette use and the emergence of e-cigarette use, particularly among youth and the health implications that that has for Vermonters. So I'm not going to rehash all of that and I cannot say it as eloquently as he can. We did provide this one pager for the public and it is on our website at healthvermont.gov. And it's just an overview, very quick snapshot of our highest concern around electronic cigarette use. And what can be done about that and raising the age of tobacco is one option that the CDC and the Surgeon General talk about. And then also counteracting tobacco industry marketing efforts is another one that you know about. A huge piece of tobacco control and in this case electronic cigarette control is around access and youth access and initiation. So if we can prevent youth from initiating then we can prevent further use down the line. Access is one of the main ways that we control that and the fact that youth can go online and purchase cigarettes by clipping a box means that they do in many cases have fairly free access to electronic cigarettes even though we control that through our stores and our local retailers and that they do a very good job checking for age in stores in Vermont. So the health department supports age 26 and we hope that the committee does consider it as an important piece of electronic cigarette prevention especially for youth. Thank you, Sheila. Sheila, I'm just wondering one of our witnesses made a particular point to distinguish between e-cigarettes and baking. And so I noticed all the literature you had out there was just e-cigarettes. And is there, I mean what's the health department considered in terms of distinctions? Yes, that's a great question. So what the correct term that I should be using is electronic nicotine delivery systems or ENDS as we call them. And so that encompasses all of them and we don't distinguish right now between electronic cigarettes and vaping. That is for health implications right now, the research reason that's an illness. And just thinking that things like this while it's great and it's catchy and stuff and somebody could look at this and say, oh, that doesn't mean vaping. I'll ask our communications. I'm just making the point that I think it was one of the people on the phone. We have lots of questions. Mary Beth and Carl and then Jessica. You made the point earlier about retail stores and convenience stores being pretty good about checking IDs. Do you have any data at all that shows what's happening in the Vermont landscape? Absolutely, I don't personally. But the department of liquor and lottery now, they just changed their name. The department of liquor and lottery, they do. They run the enforcement program and they actually have a very cool online system where you can actually go in and search an area or a store and see their enforcement actions and their checks. So they send in buyers, young buyers to see whether or not they can. And I can get that link to Julie again. That's not the health department but it's DLL and they have a really great interactive way to see that information. Great. And you all at the health department feel good about what you're seeing as far as that data. Yeah, they're great partners. Yeah, great. Thank you. Somebody that was on the phone was talking about e-cigarettes versus the other products. Vape bean. Yeah, vaping, but special brand name. Jewel. Jewel, right. The jewel was so much higher in nicotine content. I didn't realize that. I thought they were all pretty much the same in terms of nicotine content. And he was making a special point that the jewel was considerably higher. Are you aware of that? Yeah, so we are particularly concerned about jewel because it is such a huge proportion of the market and that it can have very high nicotine content. One of the big pieces about ends, I'll call them ends, is that there is not any real regulation around what percent content you can have of nicotine. And so because there's lack of regulation and transparency, a user might not know when they pick up a device, any given device, and you are correct that jewel does have a very high percentage and that they are such a huge portion of the market that that does make them women's only in that way. Do you ever check to see if the rule around no internet sales for cigarettes is working? Like, are people still able, because I think one of us tried it and we were able to, was it Dan? No, it was Dan. Oh, yeah. And I was just curious, because if we passed this it would be nice to know that it really works. So that was a great question. That would be a really good question for our partners at the Attorney General's office. They're the ones who do the enforcement actions there and I can't speak to the specifics on what their success rate is. I don't know the data on that, but... It just seems like a hard thing to enforce. I mean, it's so easy to just go on your computer. How do you locate that someone did that? Especially if it's not a store, it's just a person. It's an interesting... Did you ever find out anything, Dan? Yeah, well I emailed the company and said, would you ship to Vermont and I would make sure. Would you have to use Bitcoin? You can't pay for it without Bitcoin. You can't pay for it without Bitcoin. Cigarettes. Well, regulated tobacco cigarettes, so they don't have trace. Oh, right. That's what we're doing. We're essentially copying the math. That's because the laws probably have not been updated to its really current currency. So they need to... Yeah. Topper, you had a question. Yes, when the risk survey was done, how was this question presented? I can get you the exact wording. I don't know it up the top of my head. Well, maybe you know this. Did it use the term vaping products or e-cigarettes? Do you know about that? Okay. Well, we'll wait a little bit. You can get it for me. Okay. That's a great question. Are there other questions for Shayla? Shayla, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And talking about the AG's office, Chris Curtis. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the committee, for the record, my name is Christopher Curtis. I'm the Chief of the Public Protection Division at the Office of the Attorney General. As such, our division looks over the Consumer Protection Unit, any trust unit, civil rights, consumer assistance program housed at the University of Vermont in Burlington where we take complaints from consumers and try to resolve those as best we can. I'm here today to testify in support of H26, the bill before you. I can be relatively brief. I know this is an issue that's been of great concern to Commissioner Levine. I've been at several public events where I've heard him speak passionately and eloquently about the challenges associated with youth use of vaping products, electronic cigarettes. And I think it's fair to say that the Attorney General shares that concern about youth use and the potential risk of youth addiction to nicotine at early ages where the brain is still developing. They could lead to lifelong addictions. So that's the public health consequence. But in part, I'm also here just to recognize that really the bill that's before you is a parody bill from a legal perspective. I think what the bill is instructing is that, frankly, it's not a straight up ban on the product so much as a regulatory restriction to ensure that the product is going to retailers to licensed wholesale dealers. So that's the existing state of affairs for tobacco products. So from the perspective of thinking about legal parity among nicotine products, there's a nice symmetry there. And it starts to create a regulatory structure around products that are similar in nature, although different, but similar in nature vis-à-vis the nicotine content associated with the product. So that's in some ways something of an elegant solution to thinking about how sales and individuals are accessing products in an environment where there might be an addiction risk and in particular where there might be some youth access. So from that standpoint, I think it's fairly, I mean the language is not voluminous. It's a fairly straightforward amendment to the existing statutes. But I think there is a growing consensus that this is an area where regulation is required. It's an area where people are really concerned. I can tell you personally that our office, I have personally taken calls from concerned parents who are at their wits and literally begging, begging for somebody to do something about their kids who have been hooked on this product. And these are children who are teens who are not of legal age to buy. So the existing structure does not appear to be meeting those concerns. And I think these are relatively new products. I mean e-cigarettes have been around for a while, but I think there are newer models or newer versions of e-cigarette type products or vaping products that are coming to market. And as they learn to create more streamlined products, more attractive products, products that consumers want, and I think that this is an area that the legislature is well within its rights to be looking at. I don't want to take up too much of your time today, and I'm sort of pretty straightforward. Paragraph and then Topper and then Dan. Oh, and then Carl. So one of our previous guests who came to testify, not today, but another day, talked about the possibility of putting into place a way that parents or adults of legal age would have to sign for packages when they were delivered as that being a solution. I'm curious, you know, one of the questions that we had was, is that even enforceable among delivery companies? I'm curious what your reaction to that would be. It's a great question. I can't rule it out out of hand. I guess because it's a new construct, I'm not quite sure. I don't really know how to respond to it because I'm not sure. I think I have the same questions that you do, what does that look like in practice? Right? How is it actually going to work? What are the standards that are set out? I don't know the answer to those questions. I do think that that sounds like there's some acknowledgement that there needs to be some tighter control. I guess one of the benefits of what's before you and the bill is that it's consistent with what's already in place, at least for traditional tobacco products. So there's an awareness there. I will say, I heard the question that was raised earlier about how enforceable is the existing statute with respect to the tobacco in the sales. And I will say that as may not surprise you, the way that complaints come to our office as a law enforcement agency are typically through complaints. If you have a satisfied consumer who is buying a program, even if it's skirting Vermont law and the company is not disclosing and the consumer is not disclosing, it's very rare that we're going to get a complaint out of that. And so it's hard to manage or to know precisely what the contours are. Of course, if the representative wants to share information or make a complaint, we're always happy to receive those. One of the things that we do at the Attorney General's office is we offer those constituent services to you and to your constituents. So if you have a particular question or problem and you want to bring it to our attention, it's not part of what we do. It's part of why we're here. But again, it's a challenge. But I think as far as a regulatory construct, look, the truth is, as with any law that's passed, the good actors and good corporate actors out there who are responsible will look to the laws. They have counsel, they have representation, and they do their very best to abide by the laws of the state. There are actors sometimes who do not abide by the laws of the state. Sometimes that's unintentional. Sometimes it's because they're engaged in practices that we would not condone. So that's always a challenge. But I think that when the state speaks per a public policy that this is what's required under state law, most of those good corporate actors are going to go out of their way to comply. So there's a reduction there in terms of the goal that you're trying to achieve. Any issues with constraint of trade or constraint of interstate commerce relative to, let's say, a law like this and being challenged by, let's say, somebody who wants to sell online? Have you had problems like that or actions brought against the state or your department because of some of the other constraints or replacement of cigarettes or outlaw sales online? Well, again, I think this is an area where the legislature can take some comfort in what you're striving to do is create parity with the law that's been on the books for some time now. So the state has some experience with that. So really, all you're doing is adding a new classification or category for a similar type of product, a nicotine product. You get different in some ways, and you're not restricting the sale. You're not banning the sale. What you're saying is it has to go through licensed wholesale dealers or has to go through retailers. So I wouldn't anticipate that if the existing statute hasn't been challenged or struck down. Do you think that it would be appropriate to add the term vaping products to this bill? I'd have to think about that, Representative Vaughn. So as you've already heard in committee, there can be confusion about what a vaping product is, and I'm sensitive to the department's previous testimony that perhaps they're more accurate descriptors. So I think that's certainly fodder for your committee discussion and perhaps for Ledge Council and for the department to have some additional discussion. I would just want to make really sure that if you're talking about adding vaping products to that, that you're not either capturing something that you don't intend to capture or that if you substitute vaping products for something else as currently defined, that you're not then releasing certain items that you're trying to capture. So you're quite right to focus on the definitions because oftentimes the whole bill hangs on the definition. So I think that's a place where your committee could have some additional discussion. We're happy to work with you on that and work with your Ledge Council. I certainly wouldn't rule it out, but I just would want to make absolutely crystal clear that the committee is comfortable with what that means and what it signifies and what it triggers. Sorry. Just back to the shipping from whether we passed this bill or shipping just regular cigarettes. Is that enforceable? If it's coming from another state, you have the resources to go to who knows where to enforce this or is it? Yeah, I mean if you think about it, if you think about all the sticks of tobacco that are sold in the state of Vermont, huge, huge number. And we do make sure that even in the retail construct, our friends at DLL, they do go in and they audit stores to make sure that they're selling only to legal adults. And so that's a one at a time, right? It's not always a perfect construct. I think the same is true through the internet. What you're articulating with the law is this is the policy of the state of Vermont. As I said earlier, I think most of the good corporate actors out there and there aren't any will certainly abide by that. There are some who may not, either intentionally or unintentionally, and then the question is how does it get reported? And then the same as with any investigation our office undertakes who follow the facts where they lead. So it's not a question of enforceable or not enforceable. I think that's what you're setting out as the policy for the state of Vermont. If there's an infraction or a violation, it's up to law enforcement then to pursue the facts where they lead. Are we currently getting a huge number of complaints in this area? Is it the traditional tobacco? No. So it would really, it may be an unusual circumstance that brings something to our attention. Or it may be that either somebody at DLL or parents or other consumers suddenly identify that there's a particular actor where there's a lot of product coming in through a certain mechanism and that might lure law enforcement officials. Thank you. What's happening? Well, I should just say we're not getting a lot of complaints. It seems to me that this is highly public. Oh, yes. So why do you have to have a complaint? Well, so great question. What I mean is individual consumer complaints about a sale that somebody was attempting to avail themselves of online because they want to use the product. We are getting a lot of concerning complaints from parents who are very concerned about their teenage use. And anecdotally I can share with you that I'm really serious. People who are very upset, very concerned about this. Although it's interesting that I think that parents aren't always clear exactly where or how their children are getting the product. Whether that's through a retail environment, whether it's peer-to-peer, whether it's online, it's sure. And there was one person in particular I can just remember said, you know, we're silently dealing with this crisis in our home. So they were reaching out to say, where is the rest of the state on this? And I think they're wanting to know what lawmakers think, what the administration thinks, what the Attorney General's office thinks about this issue. So this is one step, one measure that you can take. And we're supporting that in that endeavor. This is a personal opinion. Consumer protection. In the broad sense of that, we know, everybody in this room knows that this product is hurting youngsters and probably adults. That seems to me that under the Consumer Protection work of the Attorney General's office that you would be doing something about it. Chris, if you have not gotten the message, perhaps there are members of this committee who would suggest that you look into it or perhaps do the same kind of thing that a member of the committee did in terms of accessing tobacco over it. Certainly, I appreciate the sentiment. You know, of course, that we never speak about our internal work whether or not we're engaged in particular activities. But I take your meeting and appreciate the sentiment there. Chris, thank you very much. We appreciate your time. Thank you. And we're going to wrap up with Legislative Council and Jim. Wrap up for today. Jennifer Carvey, Legislative Council. So I just wanted to respond to some of the things that have come up and I've been trying to do some research here off to the side, which means I may not have complete answers to everything, but if there are certain things you want to pursue, we should look into them. One of them is about the delivery and there seems to be a specific issue of preemption in this area where the federal government has a fair amount of regulation in place for common carriers, which are the delivery services and the states are preempted from imposing additional restrictions. So there seems to have been some litigation on that specific point in the context of cigarettes. So I want to look more into that if that was something you were looking to do. So delivery, meaning delivery of the S or the Fed of strongest, but not in terms of delivery? Yes, delivery shipping. Shipping through the males or through the private system like UPS and FedEx. So, and there does seem to be some requirements, there are some requirements already in place for age verification at the federal level, whether those are actually happening, they don't know. I guess this would be something for us to get clear on if there are any federal things around delivery. We have in our statute a prohibition of sale of tobacco, of combustible. In our existing law. In our existing law. Yes. And so this builds on something that is in our existing law. Yes. So how that fits. Yes. So let me look some at that. I'm also still working on sort of figuring out the extent to which in the federal and the FDA's deeming rule where they deemed all electronic e-cigarette and I'll talk about that definition in a minute too and other tobacco products to be within the definition of tobacco products. And so they effectively swept most of their regulation of tobacco to cover all of these different emerging categories. It's a little unclear how some pieces of that may have extended to certain regulation of electronic cigarettes. On the question of e-cigarettes or vaping or whatever you want to call them, we actually use the term in statute tobacco substitutes and that has its own definition that I will pull up for you. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's, oh. Can you read those about? I don't think it matters frankly whether you say e-cigarette or vaping as long as your statute has a definition that captures what you want it to capture. There it is. Great. All right. So the last definition here is tobacco substitute. Means products including electronic cigarettes or other electronic or battery powered devices that contain and are designed to deliver nicotine or other substances into the body through the inhalation of vapor and that have not been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for tobacco cessation or other medical purposes. And then specifically says products that have been approved by the U.S. FDA for tobacco cessation or other medical purposes shall not be considered tobacco substitutes. So if a vaping instrument is approved by FDA for tobacco cessation, then it would not fit into your definition. So far that has not happened. You may need to revisit your definition if that happens and decide if there are different ways you want to treat things. So that has not happened? That is to my knowledge all of the people in this area but the FDA has not approved any e-cigarette vaping device as a tobacco cessation device. The man on the telephone, one of the witnesses mentioned something about some American metal of medical but I haven't heard of anything. So that sounded like it was a medical study in the New England Journal of Medicine. I'm not familiar with the study itself but that sounded like what you were talking about. So it wasn't from the federal government. I mean it was from a scientific journal. You can probably find that and we are honored to see it. So I guess mine's not a question necessarily more of a comment about. It seems like the definition that we're looking at here, I mean we say tobacco substitutes but then we go on to also say liquid containing nicotine. So it doesn't... So I guess I would be... In the bill? In the bill, yeah. Right, I think the definition of tobacco substitute is talking about the device and not necessarily what goes into it. That's why I added the language about the liquids that go with it. So I mean we don't know what the FDA is going to do at some point in time if there continues to be research on these things and if they continue, if they have some credibility. I don't think that would change our opinion about wanting to not have them sold on the internet to youth in particular. So I'm just wondering if there's... Does the phrase that you have after that with that... Let's just say FDA approved that at some future time. Would the phrase after that be sufficient that the liquids containing nicotine are otherwise intended for use? Or otherwise intended for use with a tobacco substitute? Right, so that would still be the liquid intended for use with it. I think it's hard to... I mean at this point I'm not aware of any indication that the FDA is likely to approve these as a tobacco cessation device. They seem to be headed more in the other direction with additional regulation. I think at the time that we were working on the definition in this committee I think there was concern about somebody who might be using... There's some other thing where you don't heat up the liquid but you sort of breathe in a vapor out of a tube may have a methyl in it or something. I can let Rebecca tell you more about it if you want, but people were concerned... That is FDA approved and people were concerned that this definition of tobacco substitute might inadvertently pull in things that were medically recognized or recognized by the FDA as tobacco cessation devices. Carl? You know I was just wondering, and just sort of dawned on me that over the course of my life I've not hearing one of the toughest laws on the books is male fraud. The government gets involved in something to do with the male. It seems that they have just curious who would be the responsible party where somebody underage has requested a product of a manufacturer and then it comes through the male to the individual. Who would be the party that could be charged with fraud? Maybe the Attorney General's office. Yes, probably better for the Attorney General's office. I think there may be some issues with people under 18 and their legal capacity there, but Chris has an answer. Sure, certainly again for the record, Chris Curtis from the Attorney General's office. So there are consequences for youth who purchase tobacco or alcohol illegally, of course. Most of those result in diversion or coursework or volunteer service, things like those things of that nature. Male fraud is a little bit different in the sense that it's not... the unfair deceptive act isn't necessarily the person who's signed up actually wants the product and the product is actually delivered. What you're talking about is a violation of the statute that's in force and effect. So the enforcement would come... I suppose if there were a question about a massive scale, a massive breach of laws, could somebody make the case that that was a fraudulent act? I'm not altogether sure. There are postal inspectors who have some enforcement authority in this area as well, and of course the Attorney's General do, and then on a national scope, the FTC does as well. So when it comes to consumer protection, there are multiple levels of potential enforcement capacity. At the local level, if it was an individual who was getting into trouble by violating the youth statutes, it would be local police or a local prosecutor who took that up. Right, and there are provisions in for... you know, there's a greater penalty, financial penalty, I think it's $50 instead of $25 if somebody misrepresents their age in order to purchase any of these products. But I think that... Thank you. That's not responsive to your specific question about the mail fraud, but mail fraud generally is a federal offense, not a statement. I do want to answer, you might also ask me before, and you asked Chris today about the Commerce Clause and whether this kind of regulation would be a violation of the Commerce Clause. There does seem to be case law, actually, specifically on that question, and in that case, and I would find it likely in other cases as well, the state's police power, its ability to enact laws to protect its residents and to kind of weigh the... any incidental impact on interstate commerce against protecting the health and safety of its residents tends to come out in favor of the state regulation. So I don't think we have... It doesn't strike me as a Commerce Clause issue. Other questions for Jen? So, Committee, we have this on our schedule again Thursday afternoon when we get off the floor. There has been, and actually, Mary Beth, you've asked the question again, so one, if you can try to tease that apart, and we had talked previously about being curious as to UPS ships, wine or something, I don't know, as to having someone from UPS come in and talk about where they deliver it or whatever. Are there other people? What? Is she worried that she might be involved? Oh, no, they're... Okay, what other sort of... Right now, what other issues are out there? Who are there other witnesses that we would like to hear from? I'm just wondering, like, I think UPS is a great idea. I'm curious if the other... I mean, I don't think we should bring in someone from all the different, but I'm curious if they would follow all the same similar, you know, protocols and... But to the extent they're required to, yes. Yeah, okay. So some of that, yeah. Okay, good. I'm curious, we passed this law. It goes into effect July 1st. I don't know that it does, but... No, no, it doesn't. How does the word get out there? How do we make sure that Jules knows? He can't send here anymore, or our attorney general is going to know it. Maybe. Yeah, implementation. Implementation. It's a good question. I don't think I can answer that for you. Okay, so there's no consistent way... So, I mean, I think a lot of the people around the room often get the word out to their clients and others. That's... I might say for the people who are listening, who are sitting around the room following this, I'm not sure everyone is following some on the yes, it's a good idea, others of which know it's not so good an idea. What has happened and how have we gotten the word out when we've done other things related to, in particular, tobacco? Because we seem to... We've done it all the times that this law has changed. There's a few things. I mean, it's like... 92, 99, 2007, 2011, 13, 13, 18. How has the word gotten out and how do we do things? So, perhaps... So, other things, Topper? I would just like... go ahead. I would just like to make sure that the definition that we have now concerning electronic cigarettes or devices, that the definitions that we have on the book cover the vaping products. It is my understanding that they do, but I think I am not by any stretch of the imagination an expert on vaping products. And you may need to hear from others about whether there are products out there that don't fit. So, again, I will say to the assembled groups, you have positions or views or suggestions around what it should or shouldn't look like. Please let us know. We have heard from the health department that they support this. They have not proposed any amendments. That doesn't mean that we don't have to make changes. But, yes, Carl. I'm just thinking back. It seems that we had some testimony very early on about somebody that was against this bill for the fact that he wanted to expand into internet sales from his store, it sounded like, okay, and I don't know whether that's practical or not quite frankly, but I didn't recall that. He said he gave it up. Oh, he gave it up? Yeah. He gave up trying to do it? That's what I thought he said. You're referring to someone last week from the Retail and Grocery Association who talked about that concern. So, I was just curious if there's somebody we should hear from that might have an interest in expanding their sales on the internet. I mean, I think we need to hear that from the Grocery Association. They had a vape that one of their clients are the vaping providers and that there may be, I'm not to be perfectly honest, I'm not quite sure how the language of this bill would impact a retailer who wanted to do this. Well, they're looking to sell them on a retail basis. Oh, I see what you mean. To have the local Jiffy Mart be able to sell it? Well, this question makes me think of is, well, they couldn't sell, like an internet couldn't sell here, but it doesn't specifically say that an internet couldn't exist here and sell to another state. But I don't, that's not what we're dealing with, I just did some tricking in my head. We're not saying there can't be vaping business here. We're just, that's another... It was just, you were asking about other people we wanted to testify, so far I mean, two people we spoke to weren't involved in the internet business. They were just retailers of this product. I guess I don't understand what you mean by the internet business. You mean someone who... Somebody that figures they want a bigger piece of the pie so they actually want to be able to retail the product over the internet themselves. Somebody who wants to expand their retail business to also include internet business. Which is I think quite the grossest. And that's why it came up, I guess, in that context. So, Madam Chair, who would be... Is the Attorney General's Office an opinion from the Attorney General's Office? The Head of Consumer Protection? Who would make that, give us some advice on that? On the definition, whether it covers. I think that whether it covers the people who would give us advice would be the people who know what the products are. And so I'm looking to those folks to see whether or not it works. Chris Curtis from the Attorney General's Office is here and I'm sure that they can connect with him. And I look forward to any proposed amendments Thursday. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, folks, a 10-minute break. Thank you. We stopped this and we're now going to move on to... Appreciate it. Patrick, thank you. Thank you for coming and letting your voice... Thanks for taking it out. Yeah. And 10 minutes and then we're going to the budget. Good to see you, Tom. Thank you very much. Thank you.